Rough day at DU

[madison2000]

I've just found this group. Maybe I've posted some things in the DU Lounge that I should have posted here, but I'd like to think that liberals are able to embrace diversity, including religious belief, but thats not always true.

I'm getting a few different messages-
1) Why don't you liberal/progressive Christians get on the ball and fix those other Christians?

2) Keep your religion to yourself. Its offensive to make positive posts about religion in the general forums, although its completely acceptable to bash all Christians in the general forums. This is the nastiest side of DU I have seen so far. Religion bashing on Easter Sunday.

3) Grow a thicker skin and don't be offended if there are usernames or threads which mock Christ or Christianity. Jesus' middle name is either "h" or "fucking" and if you are bothered by it, get off this forum and leave us alone.

Sorry for the rant. Hope that somehow I can work through this and stay around DU for the good things it has to offer.

[Cuban_Liberal]

1. Welcome!

You hit the big 3. #4 is that we must be 'crazy' to believe a 'myth'--- always delivered in a tone of great condescension.

*sigh*

[madison2000]

2. Ugh

Yes. And always the insinuation that our faith is not freely chosen, we must have been brainwashed by our parents. We just haven't gotten out heads together yet!

[Cuban_Liberal]

3. Here's a perfect example of the double standard:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=105&topic_id=2928187&mesg_id=2928187

Check out the .gif in the opening post, and then note how the ususal suspects defend it as not being offensive to Christians.

I rest my case.

[madison2000]

4. that is a perfect example

I just glanced at that post when it went up and saw that the info was from Britain so I disregarded it.

They don't care if they're being offensive. And I hate to be in the role of the persecuted victim, but this doesn't just happen once in a while, its pretty common.

[regnaD kciN]

24. Stupid, stupid, stupid...

For one thing, at least as far as I'm concerned, my Christianity is not only a thinking choice, but it's also my top priority. In fact, as I've posted elsewhere at DU, had I not concluded that God is a reality and his revelation through Jesus's life and teachings an authentic one, I would likely either be apolitical or libertarian-conservative. If the militant anti-Christianity brigade at DU were to somehow convince me my faith was untenable, I would have no reason to maintain my political convictions, either.

Moreover, to raise a point that gets brushed-off every time I raise it in one of the major forums, we need to realize that the vast majority of Americans hold religious beliefs, and an overall majority are Christian. If those Christian-bashers here manage to make an a priori understanding of this board that "one cannot be a reasonable, thinking person and still accept the existence of God," they shouldn't be surprised if most of those who come here will be turned off, and possibly conclude that liberalism of necessity involves a renunciation of religion.

Those who tell us that we need to "clean up Christianity" need to take a long look in the mirror. While one should not discount the massive use of right-wing money and televangelism in "converting" many Christians to conservatism, it certainly doesn't hurt their cause when progressives like many at DU promote the notion that "only an idiot would believe in God," and would seemingly rather be a tiny impotent minority who can congratulate themselves on being "purely rational" rather than a majority that can effect the changes they desire, at the risk of "polluting" themselves by sharing the table with those they consider "intellectually inferior."

[JohnKleeb]

25. Yes the televanglicals and people who say stuff like

what you cite are a problem. Insulting those who believe in the all mighty is not only down right disrespectful and belittling, it also furthers the notion that liberals are elitists who want to take all traces of god away, that said I do think that the right wing televanglicals are worse but things like that do not help our cause one bit and they alienate people.

[Maat]

5. This is a really great forum. Glad you found it.

I also post on the Seekers Group.

It is truly a shame that Progressive Christians have to suffer that nonsense.

Keep posting here! Think of really good threads.

I like to think of the spiritual DU Groups here as one big progressive interfaith alliance. Pay no attention to those who are offensive. We enjoy discussing spiritual matters in these parts.

Happy Easter!

(I'm a Religous Scientist; I'm not technically a Christian, but am of a progressive faith, and support my progressive Christian friends. We respect the teachings of Jesus as the epitomy of Enlightenment. He was a Master Teacher, and represents a profound Consciousness.)

[elshiva]

7. Do you celebrate Easter, Maat?

I was wondering what holidays Religious Scientists celebrate.

[Maat]

10. We had a special Easter service.

We regard Jesus as being Master Teacher. We honored Jesus and his teachings today. Pastor quoted Jesus. It was the quote where he basically stated that Spirit was within Him, as well as all of us. I'll try to find the cite. Pastor discussed how he taught humbleness and caring, and responsibility of the community to all. We also discussed Pagan traditions that had made it into Easter lore. We celebrated "transformation" and "new spring beginnings."

My favorite tradition, not Easter (usually around Christmas) is when they light the seven candles - illustrating the attributes of Spirit (God). There is a big candle representing Spirit, surrounded by candles representing (1) peace, (2) love, (3) joy ... I'm going to have to look them up.

I'm going to have to get my facts together, or Elshiva is going to be disappointed with me. All I can remember is the law stuff right now.

Happy, happy Easter!

I'm sitting here with the fam; we're relaxing after dinner. It was just us (Hubby, me, 8-year-old Highness, the cats). We just make chicken. We called Nana and Papa in OK. We're out here in SoCal.

Thanks for explaining Maundy Thursday to me.

How did your Easter go?

[Maat]

11. I'm going to ask my Pastor what quotes she used ..

and the cite.

The first musician sang a song by Streisand talking about how We are One.

The second musician sang 'Holy City.' It was beautiful. We were honoring all, particularly Jesus's wise teachings.

[elshiva]

12. Easter was great!

I was awakened by the traditional cry:
"Christ is Risen."

And I gave the traditional response:
"Christ is Risen Indeed!"

My brother came over for breakfast and then dropped me off at my parish church, Immanuel Episcopal Church in Glencoe, MD (out in the sticks). A baby boy was baptized during the service. He gurgled and drowned out the reading of the gospel. The priest had a good sermon about not holding on to spiritual experiences of Jesus.

Then we went up to Hanover, PA to see my cousin and her family. My second cousins had an Easter egg hunt even though it was rainy. We ate and ate and ate...chocolate is coming out of my eyes...

Do any Religion Scientists believe that Jesus is Divine? I believe that he is God, but I think everyone is entitled to their own beliefs on that subject. The resurrection is not a historical event, but a faith event that is eternal.

[Maat]

15. We believe that we are all divine - equally divine.

God divided itself up, in order to experience, and we are each a part of God. We believe that Jesus, the Master Teacher, Maximum Enlightened One, was trying to tell us that (you and me), and was trying to teach us how to use the power within (God or Spirit).

We're not that far apart when you think about. You believe that Jesus is the Saviour. I believe that he is part of the Cosmic Energy that is available so that we can save ourselves. We believe in the Law of Cause and Effect. As you believe, so shall you experience. One way or another, Jesus was trying to tell us how to access that special power that is available to each of us who try.

I'm not the best at expressing it.

I'm so glad that you had a good Easter. We did too! Dr. Wayne Dyer, the psychologist I've always loved and read - for thirty years - follows the teachings of our faith. It's about affirmative prayer and positive thinking.

I love what your faith teaches too.

On edit:
It really is nice to have such a welcoming environment on which to discuss these concepts. And, it is very nice to have such nice people to discuss the ideas with.

Joy to the progressive people of faith on DU!

We can honor those traditions, and it is really not in conflict with 99% of our faith.

What if we all have powers (so-to-speak) that we don't bother to access or use? What if that is what Jesus was trying to teach or get us to understand? The Master's-in-Psychology in me knows that we haven't begun to use even 10% of the human mind's potential.

Thoughts?

[elshiva]

16. Beautiful!

"Maximum Enlightened One" I like that! I want to PM you about potential powers. Something happened last August.... Are you interested?

[Maat]

18. Of course!

I'll look forward to it.

[elshiva]

19. OK I'll do it!

[Maat]

6. Wow. I just checked out the thread.

I found that "cartoon" to be really offensive.

However, onward to good thoughts!

Let's enjoy our discussions on this forum.

Thanks for letting me post here.

Special blessings to you on Easter!

[elshiva]

8. They must have deleted it. I could not get it.

[Maat]

9. Lucky for you, Elshiva.

You know how they have the big Darwin fish swallowing the little fish (that I could ignore - it was the biggest deal)?

This one had the big fish sexually assaulting the little fish. Rather mean-spirited.

I told my husband if my teenage daughter (she's only 8 now, but ..) had put something like that up, she'd be grounded for a few days.

Happy Easter! We had a great egg hunt at the church. The music was superb during the service. Then Mommy (here) came home and took a nice nap.

[Left Is Write]

13. I have a big problem with being told to "fix" other Christians and put

another face on Christianity while simultaneously being told to shut up about Christianity already.

[madison2000]

14. yeah, me too

I was just reading NMP's thread in the Lounge, which is still growing!, and its amazing that we are supposed to rescue the rest of the liberals from the fundies- like they are our criminal relatives or something.

[Left Is Write]

17. I'm also bothered by people who say we can't take

criticism and questioning of our faith. That's not true; at least, for me, it's not. Honest questions and honest criticism asked and given in a respectful way open the doors for dialogue and a way of understanding each other. I don't have a problem with that at all.

What I don't like having to take is the nasty, derogatory remarks that blacken us all with the same broad brush, and the snide comments about mental illness and mass hysteria.

If people do not subscribe to my beliefs, that's cool. I don't try to forefeed anyone my religion. But I do not disparage them and what they believe, and I'd prefer to receive that same courtesy in return. I believe in God and I am in full possession of all of my mental faculties. Imagine that.

[Maat]

20. And, I think that you will find in the following groups ..

most respectful diaglog re relgious concepts: (1) this Christian Liberals/Progressive People of Faith, (2) the Seekers on Unique Paths DU Group, and (3) the Ancient Wisdom DU Group. I enjoy the posts on those groups a great deal. As Elshiva knows, I love discussing spiritual concepts, but in the DU Groups. I have no interest in militant atheists putting me down. Welcome! We support you here.

I agree with you. It is a silly idea that progressive people of faith can just waive a magic wand. I have no clue how to successfully influence hardcore members of the religious right, and neither do atheists.

This retired social worker believes that it goes much deeper than just their faith - it goes to their vary fundamental beliefs about life. My fundie relatives are very patriarchal and rigid - and that is just not going to change. They will make their transition before that kind of change happens.

[madison2000]

21. Thank you Maat

I believe that the nature of God is fundamentally inclusive. That is the only thing I am sure of, but a lot of other beliefs flow from that one. Including the basic parity of all religions, and the need for fairness and justice and inclusion of all people.

This has much more in common with liberal believers of other religions than with fundamentalists, who believe in a very exclusive God.

[Maat]

26. Yes, that describes the nature of what we post both here in this ..

forum, and in the Seekers on Unique Paths forum (read the first post ... with the name Skinner beside it .. a few of us wrote that mission statement).

Yep, Spirit is definitely inclusive, and welcoming and loving with respect for all.

Yep, I believe in the basic parity of all faiths; Religious Scientists believe in all paths to God, and we study many spiritualitis.

Yep, I definitely would not go to a church that does not believe in fairness, justice, and inclusion of all people.

My relatives (mother-in-law, father-in-law, sister-in-law, and sister-in-law's husband) all moved to Oklahoma, and became Southern Baptists. Need I tell you how thrilled I was (not!)?

God is within all; it is an Energy and is not just available to certain people who do or believe certain things. I agree that idea is nonsense.

Wecome again!

[regnaD kciN]

23. There's questioning, and there's ridicule...

The former is a sincere attempt to get to the truth. The latter comes from someone who has already made up their mind and doesn't want to be confused with the facts.

Those who sincerely question want dialogue. Those who ridicule want only monologue.

[JohnKleeb]

22. Heya

Yeah what a day. They expect us to go and tell the fundies that they are wrong, oh how I would love to, but how the hell do I talk sense in to a group that doesnt even think I am a real christian because I am both pro choice, pro gay rights and to top it off, I am a Catholic too. What a day, thank god for this group, feel bad for not joining sooner.

[Maat]

27. Welcome, Mr. Kleeb.

I know one thing; I have a better chance of convincing my conservative Christian neighbor that certain policies are unfair, or whatever, than my rather angry atheist acquaintance. That's for sure.

Take care!

[JohnKleeb]

28. Interesting

Heya. Sorry that your aquaintance is an ass. You know what gets me off is when people blame Christianity for all the problems the world has pretty much ever had, yet they forget that some of the worst dicators ever were athiest, I am not saying athiesm is evil but damn if youre gonna blame Christianity for the world's problems, look at what the athiest Stalin did, 20 million died in 30 years.

[Maat]

30. So true.

I'm surrounded by fundies and atheists in this neighborhood. The majority of the homes are filled with pro-Bushies. We get along for the kids, and don't discuss politics or religion much; it is the only way to keep the peace. We have nice barbeques and birthday parties for the kids (I have an 8-year-old).

I'm not going to convert them to good ideas. And they certainly aren't going to convert me to their respective belief systems.

It is such an honor to be talking to the legendary John Kleeb.

Take care!

[JohnKleeb]

31. ha legendary? please dont humble me

Yeah you have to look beyond differences I realize, as much as a stubborn partisan I am, I realize that people are people first and political second. I think one of my best friends is a conservative but still we are both friends through our love of sports like football and the pittsburgh steelers and other things.

[Maat]

32. I hear you (n/t).

[JohnKleeb]

33. I'll be the first to admit that when it comes to politics

I am a partisan bastard, I dont like the republican party at all but rank and file republicans while they do kind of po me dont really get to me, hell my grandfather's best friend in his neighborhood is a republican, and they're nice people, my three year old brother played with their daughter one day when we were there. If people only associated with people based on politics, this world would be fucked.

[Blue_Roses]

29. hang around

'cause there are a lot of good things here at DU. I think a lot of the "Christian bashing" comes with the anger that most of us feel for this administration because of how they have wrapped themselves in the cloak of Christianity. Ironically, this couldn't be farther from the truth. This administration uses God for it's own agenda and it makes me sad to see how it is used for that purpose.

My faith is my solace and I will continue to embrace my beliefs, but I try to respect those who feel differently than I do, however, sometimes I wish others would do the same. I love the Democratic party and much to contrary belief, Christ stood for the plight of the poor and sick--much like the Democratic party:D

[RevCheesehead]

34. Welcome to our group!

:hi: fellow-Cheesehead!

Another low for DU. Courtesy, respect, and common sense seem to be optional for some people.

At least it gives me some perspective on what the early Christians endured. Although we don't have a coliseum, we do have that dreaded Tombstone looming over our heads...

...or, do we? :think:

CHRIST IS RISEN!
And nobody, NOBODY, can take that away from us!!!!


Oh-oh. Better not tell the atheists that tombstones are Christian symbols. We'd have to find a non-offensive way of dealing with disruptors and freepers.