Is it possible to reach an LSD like state from Meditation alone...

[UndertheOcean]

the reason I'm asking this is that (as explained in another thread in the Drug Policy section) I'm planning on trying LSD...

But before doing so I want your opinion , can Meditation alone open up the senses in a similar way ?

[stellanoir]

1. Yes definitely especially with a decent imagination.

one theory I once read years ago that hallucinigens open a window of perception or consciousness and if you've done it once, the window remains open and you don't need to do it again.

The thing is you can actually remember and integrate what you experiences whereas with hallucinigens, it's common to get overwhelmed with imagery and forget large swaths of the experience.

[wildeyed]

2. Try reading Ram Das.

Ram Das was Richard Alpert. He was a Harvard professor of psychology who, along with Timothy Leary, experimented with hallucinogens in the 60's, then went to India and got heavily into meditation and spirituality. He wrote a number of books about meditation. There is also a wonderful movie about his recent struggles with stroke called Fierce Grace.

[Pharaoh]

3. No, meditation might get you

to some kind of bliss after many years of practice. One warning on LSD, it will amplify your emotions 100 fold or more so make sure to do it on a sunny day in a beautiful environment(a private cabin in the country would be ideal)and that you are in a reasonable good mood when you take it, it is best to trip with someone else and definately have a straight person along for safety.

[GliderGuider]

4. For me the glory of LSD was how it dissolved the boundary between Self and Other

That experience is perfectly accessible though meditation, especially if you've had the feeling before and are aiming for it. If you don't know the path, it might be harder to get there just through meditation, though.

LSD can be unpredictable - as Pharaoh said above, be mindful of Set and Setting. And it helps if the acid is very clean (I don't know if you can even get clean acid any more, it's been a long, long time for me). For your first trip, take along a guide.

Meditation sure won't give you those colours, though...

Enjoy your trip!

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

5. Well, for what it's worth,

I've had a few mystical experiences in my life, yet have never used LSD or marijuana or peyote or mushrooms. It just happened. I have related my experience to a person who HAS done all of the above, and he told me that my experiences were very similar to what he found with LSD. The difference, he said, was that doing LSD gave the experience, but without underpinnings-like trying to set a pyramid upright on its tip rather than its base. He has been into spirituality for decades now, and says that he wouldn't go back to drugs to get insights.

[leftyladyfrommo]

6. Advice from an old mystic.

I don't really believe in giving advice to anyone but I would like to make a comment about this.

Sometimes people can have visions or dream like things happen while they meditate. But the masters would be the first to tell you that such happenings are just your own mind trying to play tricks on you.

If you have bright colored visions or other like things while meditating the important thing is to focus and meditate right thru them. They are only an illusion. And you don't want to get hung up on the lights.

[JCMach1]

7. Altered states of consciousness all have similarities regardless

of how you get there.

When I go into deep TM, my theta waves kick in and I experience REM. Tantric meditation can also bring physical manifestations. If you have ever had the kundalini snake climb your spine, you know what I mean.

[WheelWalker]

8. Are you FOR REAL, man?

[Myoho]

9. No... It cannot

For Laymen, the path to Enlightenment lays within the Five Precepts.



1) Do Not Kill
2) Do Not Steal
3) Do Not indulge in sexual misconduct
4) Do Not make False Speech
5) Do Not take Intoxicants (Buddhism emphasis's wisdom. Taking intoxicant will descend and lose the seed of wisdom. Intoxicants, such as drugs, liquor, smoking, etc., are harmful to health. It seems that taking intoxicant is not hurting others. However, if we are drunk and lose our consciousness, we may easily commit evil deeds and hurt others. Therefore, one who breaks this precept will tend to break all other precepts along with it.

The fifth precept is based on respect for mental health. It guard against the loss of control of one’s mind. It is particularly important to those who meditate because, by refraining from taking intoxicants, they can more easily cultivate awareness, attention and clarity of mind. Thus the observance of the fifth precept not only contributes to happiness in the family and peace in society, it also prepares a person for the practice of Mental Development and Enlightenment.

[Myoho]

10. Well.....

I have never indulged in that particular drug. I suppose that you can attain a state of Euphoria, however enlightenment is not possible in this state.

The Fifth Precept is very important.

Is following the path in it's purity to Enlightenment necessary? Yes, I believe it is.

However, an inebriated induced state can lead to thoughts that do not reflect the True Nature of Reality.

[Ricochet21]

45. Where are those rules engraved?

[sam sarrha]

11. forget the LSD, just learn to meditate. LSD can/will set up a "False Benchmark". its a synthetic

experience.. that can lead you off the Middle Path. and you can end up setting back your real spiritual development years or decades. anything you learn on Acid is simply a "Distraction". a 1000 Octane distraction. all it is doing is locking open your brains Synapses, creating many pathways of least resistance to No where.

i have taken LSD well over 100 times, the pathways that are opened are not going anyplace.. thy are just pried open and set on fire

http://www.buddhanet.net meditation instruction, teachings, lesson plans... that will show you a path well traveled for 2600 years,

probably better than getting intoxicated and then getting lost in the swamp of the conventional mind

[GliderGuider]

12. Anything that gets you onto the path is fine by me.

Why should anything related to spiritual investigation be proscribed?

Anyone who takes LSD and gets caught by the pretty lights instead of the message of unity probably wouldn't fare any better on a more conventional path. Conversely, anyone who does pay attention to the message of unity that can be heard through the "roar of the greasepaint and the smell of the crowd" (aka synesthesia) will eventually pursue that message in a variety of forms until they find one that's right and lasting for them.

In my opinion, hearing the message through an LSD trip is no more a "False Benchmark" than reading about it in a book. In fact, it may even be closer, because the LSD awareness at least has the advantage of being experiential rather than a product of pure mentation like reading.

I did acid back in the late '60s, and I heard the message, but I didn't wake up until earlier this year. Did the acid "set me back" those 40 years, or did I merely arrive where I was supposed to when I was supposed to, and not a moment earlier?

[conscious evolution]

13. I agree

The Chinese have long practiced Nei Dan and Wai Dan,which are the practices of using chemistry and alchemy to refine ones subtle energys.
That said,it is a perilous path-one that is full of what I call 'hippy traps'.
Personally,I prefer mushrooms or hayuasca over LSD.

[TreasonousBastard]

14. Shortcuts are often just cheating...

and you might find similar mental states but not the results one wants from a lifetime of meditation and learning.

Many years ago I spent some time on a commune in Germany where half the people were deeply into various Eastern meditations, lifestyles and such. (The other half wondered why they didn't help with the cleaning, but I digress...)

A gen-yoo-wine Indian mystic was called in for a visit, after much work getting him to agree we existed, and he was given his first acid tab.

"So, what else is new"? Or words to that effect. It seemed the effects of acid were old hat to him. And not very important.

[David Zephyr]

15. The answer is: no.

As someone who mediates and who has taken LSD, I can tell you that while in both one experiences reality differently than we normally do, the experiences are not the same.

I also do not recommend that you experiment with LSD. I did. I am glad I did back when I did. I would not again. The risk, the downside would far outweigh the benefits.

Drugs are toxins and are not natural.

[GliderGuider]

16. "Drugs are toxins and are not natural"

Would you include peyote and psilocybin, both plant substances, in that blanket assessment? How about ibogaine and ayuhuasca?

I really distrust sweeping generalizations and blanket proscriptions -- they reek of spiritual absolutism. If there is one thing I've learned so far, it's that there are very few absolutes on these paths. As I've said before, LSD gave me (and countless others) our first glimpse of a Path. And while I caution people about its power and risks, it is by no measure a "toxin" in any physical sense.

[David Zephyr]

17. Not a sweeping statement.

Peyote and psilocybin are indeed natural. They are not a laboratory concoction.

If you read my post, you would have noticed that I have also taken LSD. Not the watered down party sort that is popular today, but the full-blown 8-12 hour acid.

I created the first thread on this subject at the DU back in 2001. LSD certainly opened my awareness to so much more than what we perceive as reality. I credit it in many ways that are are impossible to explain with the limitations of language which, if you have taken it as you say, I'm sure you know. And I have quite a history with LSD that stretched over a few years. I do believe that one can still tell if another has taken it. I am glad I did.

Now, having said that. I have also seen firsthand the absolute mental destruction of very good people who also took LSD. People who broke down so that they are institutionalized even today.

Knowing all of that, I can never, ever recommend anyone to take LSD. Not only are there too many that simply can not deal with such an altered sense of reality that comes on so swiftly, so powerfully, but then there is the contamination issue because it is fabricated in a laboratory. And I do consider LSD a toxin.

I do not take any drugs. I have not for over 30 years. I also do not partake in peyote or other natural hallucinogenics. But I was not speaking of those when I used the word "drugs".

Finally, the OP was asking about similarities between LSD and meditation and I wrote: "while in both one experiences reality differently than we normally do, the experiences are not the same."

I am curious. Do you think that they are similar? I think that was the question.

[GliderGuider]

18. Similarities

The LSD experience can occasionally give one a flash of satori and sometimes even a glimpse of the sense of unity that is one element of samadhi. To that extent the LSD experience has similarities with meditation. As far as I can tell, those aspects are identical in form to their counterparts achieved through meditation alone, and so for me have equal value. The gestalts of each experience are not similar of course. The chance that one will have a bad trip while meditating is vastly lower, as is the chance that one will viscerally experience the transcendent comedy of the universe.

I would advise any serious seeker with a well-integrated personality who might be interested in it to give it a try, with the proviso that they approach it as a sacrament rather than just a Saturday entertainment.

And yes, I'm talking about "real acid" -- the kind that launched Ram Dass on his journey.

[LostinVA]

31. Intoxicants aren't part of the path

[GliderGuider]

33. Which path?

Is there only one?

That strikes me as a little doctrinaire. There are as many paths as people. Who am I to prescribe another's path for them?

[LostinVA]

34. Fifth Precept

[GliderGuider]

35. And if one's path is not Buddhist?

Unless you claim that the Five Precepts are binding on everyone, a path may legitimately involve intoxicants. There's a long shamanic lineage that centers around the practice, for instance.

[LostinVA]

32. The Fifth Precept

[sam sarrha]

19. ..even if you do have an LSD like experience during Meditation, it's just considered a "DISTRACTION"

YOUR TEACHER WILL JUST TELL YOU TO TO CONTINUE SITTING.. its just a distraction to Meditation

[GliderGuider]

20. And if you have a meditation-like experience during an LSD trip

It's called a transcendental insight, and can change you forever.

Hmmm... Transformation or distraction, which to choose? And while we're talking about choice, why should one choose a teacher's interpretation of an experience over one's own? Nobody makes the teacher God except the student. If you choose to give the teacher the power to make your choices for you, where does that leave you?

I recommend doing both meditation and LSD -- I think they're quite complementary. Just ask George Harrison the next time you see him. Of course, one major advantage of meditation is you can't go to jail for doing it.

The invalidation of experience is a death-knell for enlightenment.

[sam sarrha]

21. It's called 'Linage'.. for the last 2600 years people have been get'n really good consistent results

from teachers trained by teachers trained by teachers, etc etc all the way back to the Buddha.

teachers in my school of Buddhism are not Jim Jones types.. but you could go to NKT OR SGI and find one of those...

Traditional Buddhist Meditation is based on training the mind. it is sort of a controlled conditioned reflex.. it is a fairly slow process, over a year or two to learn how to do it. then it takes many more years to over write the negative habitual patterns.

i have taken LSD probably a couple hundred times... i also used Mushrooms, and i must warn others that the "TOXINS" in mushrooms can quickly build up and incapacitate a person for "years", been there done that.

meditation an the Noble 8 Fold path is a prescription to clarity. drugs stir up and muddy the water. it makes little sense to me anymore to lose control of my mind then try to sort out which drug induced fleeting chaotic illusion is more meaningful than the Dharma.

here is the essence of my point.. 'during meditation, something happens we are not 'aware of' the Tibetans call it "Skillful Means".. this is the goal. it takes a year to get good at it. and you can mess it up and have to start over to get it back...' drugs are chaotic, meditation is consistent, however not always obvious. i'm older now and "beautiful bright shiny pieces of plastic"* don't fascinate me anymore.

the previous quote "* is from one of my adventures to Belize Central America, i was staying in a place 60 miles into the jungle, a Mayan woman the mother of several children was warning me about the 'Little People', they lure you into the jungle with gems and precious beautiful pieces of plastic.. and you are never seen again.

[GliderGuider]

22. So that makes its lineage about as long as that of peyote

Lineage is great, but it's no guarantee of universality. I intend no disrespect to the Dharma, but psychoactives have been a part of ritual and religion as far back in human history as we've been able to look.

I'm not out to denigrate meditation here. It's incredibly valuable, and it's the mainstay of my own practice. My problem is that I'm a a bit of an anarchist, so appeals to authority or tradition or proscriptive pronouncements of any sort tend to raise my hackles. I've always felt that individuals should be absolutely free to choose and find value in their own personal experience. For you that means traditional Buddhist meditation styles, that's fine with me. I can understand your attachment to that Path, and appreciate its value for you. However, if my choice is Sufi or Tantra or southwestern American shamanism (complete with peyote rituals) or something completely self-created I would expect the same respect.

FWIW my own path seems to be most congruent with the teachings of Osho -- who was himself a notorious spiritual anarchist.

[sam sarrha]

23. whatever works..

[GliderGuider]

26. Exactly.

[sam sarrha]

42. However, peyote is consumed under strict cultural rituals within a community setting, there are a

lot of multifaceted things going on other than just getting high, which is what an outsider would be doing without a cultural teacher and years of study.

[Why Syzygy]

38. As a bystander..

I find your points much more convincing and reasonable.
"Fifth Precept" repeated rote sounds rather irrational.

I'm also a bigger proponent of your mindset towards teachers, etc.
Overall. Convincing. Not that I'm dropping or anything.
I would do something natural given the right circumstances, but probably not lab stuff.
:thumbsup:

[balantz]

24. Or, one could ask, is it possible to know oneself as nondual awareness

with or without LSD.

And, after the LSD or even the meditative (samadhic) state is over, does one know oneself as nondual awareness? Or, does a perception/experience of duality persist?

[GliderGuider]

25. From personal experience

After the LSD experiences were over I remembered (and still remember decades later) the samadhic experience and some of what it felt like. The experience itself doesn't persist, but the memory does. In my meditative practice I've had the experience a small handful of times, but only twice outside of active meditation. Again, the experience doesn't persist, but the fact that I've had it outside of meditation lends credence to reports that with practice you can make the state persist longer. That's one way in which meditation is superior to psychedelics -- you may have a chance of bringing the experience more into your "normal" existence.

For me right now the question is, "How much of this experience do I need in my life for it to work its magic?" Is the point the experience itself, in which case the more of it the better? Or is the point one of knowing that we are fundamentally non-dual beings so that this knowledge can guide our everyday thoughts and actions? I don't know the answer to these questions yet, but I'm working from the latter premise at the moment.

[hvn_nbr_2]

27. The answer probably depends on what you mean by "LSD-like state"

If you mean seeing newspaper taxis appear on the shore and cellophane flowers of yellow and green towering over your head, almost certainly not.

If you mean getting to a state of oneness, dissolution of ego and boundaries, etc., yes but it will almost certainly take a good while. You may quickly gain an opening to that through LSD.

BTW, you've probably already noticed that a question like this tends to get a lot of dogmatic answers from either side that doesn't have any experience of the other side but they think they know all about it.

[LostinVA]

28. Are you seriously using drugs while you meditate???

:sigh:

That old thing.

It goes against everything teaching and every reason to meditate. JUST SIT.

[leftyladyfrommo]

29. I think that "just sitting" is too boring for some people.

And it takes too long. And mostly nothing much happens. Until a few years down the line you realize that an amazing amount has happened but it was so subtle at the time that you almost missed it.

It's amazing stuff.

[LostinVA]

30. Exactly!

And, I think drug use while sitting negates the experience, and goes against the Dharma.

[FreeState]

37. No only that if your serious about your path you realize that any distraction is not good

and I say this as a pot smoker on occasion - there is a reason for the 5th precept (avoid intoxicants). You can not harness your concentration if you are unable to control your mind or remember what your doing - something pot/alcohol etc severely inhibit IMO.

[GliderGuider]

39. So, if one has dropped acid or smoked pot, and is under the influence,

should one take care not to meditate while in that state? For fear of going against the Dharma?

In other words, if taking drugs while sitting is a bad idea, how about deciding to sit after taking drugs?

[leftyladyfrommo]

40. I think the idea is just to not do drugs or anything that alters the mind.

Not ever.

But if you do drop acid or something and then decide to meditate I don't think your brain will expload or anything. But i can't imagine that it could be too good for you.

I tried LSD when I was in college and I just don't see what the big deal is. The visions were kind of interesting. But I hated being high for so long and not being able to come down when I wanted to. I don't like not being able to sleep when I'm tired.

I don't even like grass much anymore. Its too strong now. Its just not any fun to be completely zoned out. What is the point in that.

[ZombieHorde]

36. Yes, I have reached an LSD like state from meditation alone.

[sam sarrha]

41. but it would only be a distraction, transitory glamor of illusion,

[leftyladyfrommo]

43. It would be a total waste of time. n/t

[Ricochet21]

44. Yes

but it will feel much more "natural"
it's all the same

[Lucinda]

46. Absolutely.

I speak from personal experience. :) And I have found meditation to be the better way, for me, by far.

[ZombieHorde]

47. I have had weird states of mind while meditating.

Wasn't exactly like acid, but similar.

Enjoy your trip.