Now that Italy is withdrawing its troops for Iraq

[Ken Burch]

Is there any excuse for the Democrats to nominate a presidential candidate who DOESN'T support withdrawal?

The hawks have lost the arguement. And there aren't enough of them for us to bother trying to appease in '08.

We can win as a pure party on this issue, people, and it's time we tried.

[liberal N proud]

1. But, what about Poland?

[Ken Burch]

2. Yeah...that'll be Hillary and Joe's spin...

nt.

[AbsolutNickUSN]

3. Why give up?

Iraq is vital at this point to the GWOT. Withdrawl should NOT be our platform rather it should be "watch and learn." Many hard core Dems, myself included, believe in the Iraq mission out of devotion to country as opposed to devotion to Bush or imitation of Republicans. FDR won through to absolute victory and so can we. All due respect to Congressman Murtha, Congresswoman Pelosi, and Chairman Dean the future of our Democratic party should be in restoiring national morale, promoting real American unity, and winning in Iraq not walking away. Democrats of the caliber of FDR, Kennedy, and even former President Clinton can win in Iraq. We should give them the chance.

[Ken Burch]

4. FDR was fighting for a great cause. There's no principles at stake here.

Wars that are strictly of national interest can NEVER have progressive consequences.

All this is about is letting the U.S. build an Empire. That isn't what Jefferson or Washington or Lincoln fought for, and it also isn't what William Jennings Bryan fought for.

As to the GWOT, the continued U.S. occupation, if anything, has caused the SPREAD of terrorism. Al Qaida is in Iraq now, and it WASN'T there before the invasion. If We had to do regime change, we should have left the day after we grabbed Saddam, conveniently dropping him in the ocean along the way..

And what's there to learn other than "this isn't working, it isn't going to work, and doing the same thing over and over again in the hope of achieving a different result is the definition of insanity."

Besides, if there WERE an American victory in Iraq, the right wing would be in power in the US forever.

(BTW, if I read your posting name correctly and you are in the Navy and stationed in the combat area, I wish you a safe and speedy return. The antiwar movement's fight is with the civilian politicians, not the troops or the sailors. Get home soon, and live a good and long life.)

[AbsolutNickUSN]

5. We're fighting for a great cause.

First off thank you Ken. I am Navy but I got back home a couple weeks ago. I recognize the anti war movement of today isn't the same as Vietnam. The beef is taken up more so with the politicians rather than the troops and in that regards I respect the dissenters, however I can't agree with their position.

I won't profess there aren't questionable aspects to the timing of the Iraq war and some of the justifications behind the original invasion, however, we all recognize Saddam as a tyrant and while not being a major player in Al Qaida he had low level dealings with them as a fellow enemy of the United States. For those reasons I supported an attack against him in the spirit of former President Clinton's fight against Milosevic. Now with regards to the aftermath, yes Al Qaida is in Iraq now. They weren't as much an influence with Saddam in power as he would not allow it to be so, however with Saddam gone Al Qaida has made itself an influence. They have declared Iraq to be centerstage in their fight against us. They attack Iraqis to instigate the type of despair and chaos that sustains and supports their parasitic hold on nations.

Our withdrawl would leave Iraq in the position of post Soviet withdrawl Afghanistan, ripe for a repressive terrorist governement to seize power. Al Qaida is doing everything in their power to make that happen and as long as they so try we should be there to resist them. These are theocrats and tyrants of the worst kind. Who better to lead the fight against them than the party that defies theocracy and tyranny to its core principles?

A victory in Iraq for America is just that a victory for America and Dems are the best bet to make it happen. We need to believe in that. Democratic Presidents won victories for us in both World Wars. A Dem President secured peace during the Cuban missile crisis. A Democratic President won freedom for Serbia and Kosovo. We can win in Iraq, and show that Democrats true to their nature are the best defenders of America its people, its defining principles of liberty, its interests, and its land.

I call for no more talk of withdrawl from our Democratic leaders but cries of "We can do it better."

[icymist]

6. How do you account for the first days of the occupation?

First off, let me welcome you to the DU! Welcome! Second, let me tell you how I respect you and the duty to our country. Now, during the first days of the occupation of Iraq, American forces guarded the oil industry more than the History Museum. Wasn't this evident in the on-going looting that happened? How do you explain the way American corporations get their way in Iraq, not just any American corporation, but those favored by this administration? (re: Halliburton) Why are there 'No bid contracts'? If there is no corruption going on? I ask you, Mr. Service man, Just why do your fellow service members ask that we at home send them armor and food? What's going on? Please tell us the truth!

[Ken Burch]

7. What concerns me is also what happened with U.S. interventions after 1945.

The great victory against fascism in 1945 had a horrible unintended consequence. It gave our leaders the false impression that they were invincible and infallible.

This, along with a paranoid interpretation of Soviet intentions, which led to U.S. acts that actually intensified the Soviet Union's own paranoia, led to a set of policies that put the U.S., in many respects, on the wrong side of history for decades.

We ended up being the leading global force AGAINST the liberation of the Third World, against the end of colonialism, and against the emancipation of working people. Our leaders, of both parties, falsely interpreted all of the above struggles as nothing more than evil plans hatched in the dark halls of the Kremlin. We felt we had to stop all of them. The result was U.S. involvement in the overthrow of democratic governments that happened to support socialist economics, with U.S. opposition to the antiapartheid struggle until nearly the end, and with the murderous Contra War and El Salvador/Guatemala policies that permanently stained our reputation around the globe.

I love my country. I just don't want its leaders to do further harm in our name. I want them to be modest in intent, humble, and willing to listen to "the considered opinions of mankind". I can't see how continued military involvement in Iraq, future involvement in Iran, and other U.S. military adventures to come can lead to a positive outcome for the world.

My nightmare is that this leads to Marines marching through Venezuela, Bolivia and Cuba. Which leads to U.S. corporations ruling the planet for the rest of eternity.

I would strongly recommend that you google "Smedley Butler" and read what he had to say about what can happen with the projection of U.S. power in the world.

And again, welcome to DU. We may not always agree, but I respect your passion and your ability to express yourself.

[AbsolutNickUSN]

8. OK here's the scuttlebutt

I want to say first that the situation is not perfect. I would say there are improvements. I honestly feel that. I saw it first hand. We have troops that oppose continued efforts in Iraq. We have troops that strongly support continued efforts. I can't tell you which is the majority. Mr Burch I whole heartedly agree with your perspective on US interventions. I have always believed the primary duty of our military is to protect our country and our people not play "world police." On the other hand I have always believed that the lessons of WWII tell us that we should play a part in the world community ensuring the ideals of the Universal declaration of human rights as well as ensuring that no other Hitler or Saddam can ever threaten our country nor murder millions of people. Though I'm strongly in favor of this being done on an international level. Problem is the world community in the form of the UN is more an more unwilling to seriously address issues of aggression, and human rights violations. Someone has to do something.

I am in NO WAY SHAPE OR FORM, a fan of halliburton. That thought is echoed among a number of Sailors, Marines, Soldiers, and Airmen. Yet there are those that don't feel that same animosity but I digress. Our presence there is not fueling any more terrorist acts any more than if we were not there and our efforts have been to help restore the economy and basic services. From my experiences there and looking at the matter objectively not out of some devotion to the Bush doctrine, as my loyalties to the President are a matter of military etiquette, our presence does have an effect. We are the line that stands between Iraq and complete chaos. The kind of chaos al qaida needs. We have some supply issues among the troops but not to the level of serious negligence. We're taking losses and even one loss is one loss too many but understanding what I do about what is going on over there I really fear what the ramifications of our withdrawal would be. I can't predict the future but I saw the writing on the wall. When we as Americans have turned our back to the world it has come back to bite us and the evidence points more and more that we can't just walk away from this. Some of what I know I can't share I just have to say trust me. Right now its a frustrating game of tug of war. The argument of our resolve being tested is not entirely without merit. I saw it I heard it.

Let me put it simply and objectively: The situation in Iraq is imperfect and frustrating but not hopeless or worsening. We should try to shore up international support and see if we can reverse the trend of countries pulling out. As Dems are a helluva lot better at diplomacy in my humble opinion that's where our efforts should be focused. We also have a serious issue of national morale that needs to be addressed. I have considerable faith in Democratic abilities to be uniters not dividers and we really need unity at this time and place. Also I have no small amount of concerns where no bid contracts and corporate intervetions are concerned that's why I welcome Democratic leadership over operations in Iraq that might stem those imperfections.

[Ken Burch]

9. I think you and I will have to respectfully disagree on this issue

But I appreciate the thought and concern you bring to the issue.

Let's hope, if nothing else, that this is over soon.

And, just so you know, I had never even thought of you as a "friend of Haliburton".