So OUR Congress caved to The Dubster. Now What Do We Do About It?

[Ken Burch]

We need something big and dramatic to remind them who elected them.

Maybe we should occupy ALL Congressional offices and the Capitol Bldg itself, with a vow not to leave until they promise NEVER to cave again.

It's gotta be something. We can't just let this happen and then cheerfully campaign for all of them next year. They think we OWE them. We need to remind them they OWE us.

NO SURRENDER! NO PASARAN! TAKE THESE MOTHERS DOWN!

[NoodleBoy]

1. ok. got plane tickets? or better yet, do you have a few more Senators so we can have something

larger than a 51% majority? Because until we have more--and there's a Dem in the white house--nothing more will change. it's not because the Dems sold you or anyone else out-- it's because they're realists.

Also, lest you forget, without that 51% majority there wouldn't be a single Democratic option on the table, at all. Want to try to change that next time around? get out and volunteer your ass off, just like I and thousands of other activists did.

[Ken Burch]

4. Just campaigning for them as if this didn't happen means giving up my opposition to the war.

It means rewarding the cowardice.

They should have just sent the bill back over and over. No good came of this climbdown and it has to be a permanent defeat. No one who voted for it could ever be morally worthy of the presidency.

[NoodleBoy]

7. yeah let's send the bill back OVER and OVER again, because eventually Bush will run out of ink and

he'll have to sign it.

Is that how it's supposed to happen-- or will Bush, no matter what, keep the troops in Iraq until they have no more bullets or food left? Which sounds more plausible--this stubborn idiot suddenly relenting or using the troops as a political ploy (again)?

I'm guessing you probably voted for Kerry in 2004, too, which makes your last statement pretty funny.

[Ken Burch]

10. Give me one good reason why we should just cheerfully swallow this abandonment of principle

We could have won. Surrender to the Dub was not the only option. And nobody who voted for this can ever claim to have really been against this war. They all gave up their souls forever tonight.

[NoodleBoy]

12. hahahahahaha. how could we have won? Answer me, instead of trashing the realists in Congress.

[Ken Burch]

21. Surrender to Bush ISN'T realism. Surrender to Bush is just surrender.

Sometimes you have to take a stand. Short-term victory isn't always the main point. By taking the stand, we'd have rallied millions more people to tne antiwar cause and to the cause of the Democratic party.

This way, our Senate caucus ONCE AGAIN sent the message that "we stand for nothing 'cause we're afraid to lose". Which, of course, will only make sure we KEEP losing because people don't respect party that doesn't even think it can win, like you do.

It was a time for courage. The troops who are now dying in the name of this administration's arrogance deserved to see some courage from OUR senators. They showed none. They proved themselves to be devoid of principes.

Caving in never works. History has proven me right. And three months from now, if they do the same thing, will you STILL be defending it?

And the longer the war goes on, the less stopping it matters, because the more people will have died.

You're basically asking the people of Iraq to "take one for the team".

[NoodleBoy]

27. We took a stand with the first budget with a timetable. that was our stand.

How many more stands do you want to take?

And having millions of people rebuke the President's war plan won't make him change his dumbass stubborn mind. We did that already (remember those elections?), and he's not changed it. Doing it again will not have any effect.

[Ken Burch]

29. So just give up and accept the war going on in 2008 is your approach?

And can I assume you WON'T be in Denver trying to make sure our ticket is committed to getting out immediately if the war's still going on then?

You're just telling the peace movement "give up and know your place, peasant scum". Never mind that no good has ever come from letting our party leaders ignore the activists and idealists. "Realism" is just Carville for "give up".

[NoodleBoy]

you're making me laugh alot tonight.

Your plan is, basically, no plan, let's just let the President defund the troops and leave them in Iraq because that's infinitely better than trying to have some sort of congressional oversight and lifesaving funding.

And yes, me disagreeing with you on this means I'm calling the peace movement "peasant scum." It also means that I'm really just a Republican, because God knows the only real Democrats are ones who agree with you on every issue.

And how has the leadership ignored the activists and idealists--if they were really ignoring us they would have just rolled over soon after being sworn in, allowing Bush to fire civil servants because they didn't toe the party line and not trying to make any sort of stand on the war. But I guess that's the way you see it happening, and I can't help that.

[Ken Burch]

34. Your plan is surrender to the warmongers for crumbs.

We didn't GET any meaningful oversight. And these funds won't save anybody's lives.

Look, if it just doesn't matter to whether the war goes on so long as somebody who calls themself a Democrat wins in 2008, just say so.

That's the obvious conclusion. You'd be perfectly happy to have Hillary be Scoop Jackson in a pantsuit, even though that would mean bein indistinguishable from Bush.

[NoodleBoy]

36. yes that's exactly what I said! go scoop jackson!

here's the math that the Senate dems are going by:


Defunding the troops= Bush being a stubborn a-hole and letting the troops in Iraq die en masse because they haven't been able to buy food, armor, fuel, ammunition



Funding the troops + congressional oversight as to where that funding is going + airing what needs to be changed in Iraq= Less troops die than in the other option, the war might be fought better, not as much money will be wasted.

And if it really doesn't matter what the Democratic leadership does because you'll find some flaw with it and gripe anyway, just say it.

[Ken Burch]

13. I did vote for Kerry. In the fall. And I did it with gritted teeth

We should never have to vote for somebody we hate again. The results proved Kerry lost because he fudged on the war and because the party allowed no real debate on the war at the convention. We lost because we looked like we had no core values. So don't be do damn smug.

And there is no way that letting Bush have this money will help gain us MORE senators next time. The only people who wanted us to cave are permanently right wing on everything else. There are no more liberal hawks.

This can't be a good thing for the Dems that Bush got his money. There's no way standing our ground would have been worse. Don't you centrist hacks get it yet...we always lose when we fudge and when we diss our base?

[NoodleBoy]

17. I'm not a centrist, I'm a realist. read this and reply:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=296x6974#6986

[RBInMaine]

42. Right! The Democrats DID NOT sell out !! Look closer here.

OK folks, it's settle down and take another deep breath time. We are all at least somewhat disappointed. But once again look at the big picture and train the fire in the right direction: at Bush and the R's. First, Dems pushed pretty hard. We sent up a bill with a timetable to end the war. Bush vetoed it and absolutely vowed to veto any bill with a timetable knowing we just don't have the votes to override. As much as it sucks, he's the president and can deploy troops where he wants.
While most Americans want the war over, they also want the troops funded. That is reality. We also got a minimum wage increase, more veterans benefits, money for Katrina, and other important concessions. We also got some benchmark pressure which is at least something. Bush and the R's also know this is their LAST congressional concession. THE FIGHT HAS ONLY JUST BEGUN!! Bush also must report on progress later in the summer and in the fall, and R's are saying that without real progress they will finally start peeling off, and that will happen because the last thing they want is another war election (which is going to happen anyway because Bush still won't budge.). That will be the beauty here. R's WILL start joining with Democrats and pressure to change course and end the war will come from a good number of THEM.
It will be fun watching the R coalition crack at its seams. Also, there are other defense appropriation bills coming, and a vote in the fall to repeal the authorization for the war. Yes, it sucks in some ways right now. But don't lose heart. The fight has only just started, and even this bill was an advance, even if not the one we wanted.

[Harper_is_Bush]

2. You make a false assumption. But hey, go occupy some offices

let's see you explain that.

You don't explain anything else, just like the rest of the outraged here.

[Ken Burch]

3. What's to see. It was pure cowardice. We gave Bush bragging rights.

There was no compromise. We gained nothing from this.

There's no way you can really say this isn't a betrayal.

[Harper_is_Bush]

5. You have nothing to say. It's all emotional rhetoric. n/t

[Ken Burch]

8. You have nothing to say in defense of this.

It appears that you think we should just accept this because the grown-ups told us to.
No party anywhere ever recovered from this kind of treachery. It's a disgrace and you know it.
The fact that you make no actual arguement in favor of the surrender to war proves my point.

[Harper_is_Bush]

11. In defense of what? "treachery"?? You and the Keith O's are unhinged.

Reality has departed you.

[Ken Burch]

14. Are you ever actually going to make an arguement in support of today's sell-out?

Insulting other posters isn't good enough.

You have to make the case for YOUR view.

You know this will drive us down in the polls. You know the talk radio assholes will barbecue us. You know it will piss off the antiwar American majority.

I dare you to make one arguement as to why this made any sense.

Or are you one of those "the war doesn't matter as long as we save price supports" types? Well, too late. Scoop Jackson's dead and he'd have lost 49 states in '72 too.

[Ken Burch]

41. You never DID say what the "false assumption" was.

I guess you're admitting that was nothing but rhetoric on your part.

[Erika]

6. Pelosi/Reid had the majority of Americans against war

and they still didn't have the guts to stand up to Bush.

[John Q. Citizen]

9. I'm going down to Sen Jon Tester's local office tomorrow with a big sign; bush owns

Jon Tester!

[NoodleBoy]

15. he owns Jon Tester because Tester didn't want Bush to let the troops die and blame the Dems?

So what, did Bush not own the guy Tester beat-- the one who said he and Bush had a secret plan no one else had ever heard of?

Shit, I wish I had Jon Tester as my Senator. If you really don't want him that much, I'll trade you a John McCain or a Jon Kyl for him. Maybe then you'd be happy, since then you'd have alot more to disagree with them about and alot more things to bash them for.

[Ken Burch]

16. That's the best you've got "any Republican would be worse than a pro-war Dem"?

Even though if we elected a Dem committed to keeping us in the war(which is what any Dem not committed to a quick pull-out would be, btw)we'd be electing a Dem who was going to be obligated to govern as a Republican anyway. There'd be no money to be different than Bush if we "stayed the course". And it wouldn't be worth it just to have a charisma-free rerun of the Nineties.

[NoodleBoy]

18. The best you've got is a sign and modem. and Tester is not pro-war.

So what would you have Tester and the rest of the Senate Dems do? Defund the war, and watch as Bush, being a petulant bastard, strand the troops in Iraq without any funding?

[John Q. Citizen]

19. Tester lets the troops die, just as long as he's not blamed? Oh. That would be

a good sign also.

I guess bush owns both of them, according to your words.

You go ahead and let your Senators betray you if you want. I'm not like that. When they betray me, when they betray my country, our troops, I'm going to tell them.

When was the last time you took a big sign down to Kyl's or McCains office? Maybe you need to let them know what's on your mind.

Instead of worrying about what's on my mind.

[NoodleBoy]

20. When I have a choice between Bush letting lots more troops die because he's a stubborn prick

And relatively fewer troops dying because our Senate Democratic leadership knows they can't play chicken with a sociopath, I choose the Leadership.

I've been to a couple of those sign events around Kyl's and McCain's offices. I've also knocked on too many doors to count, called too many numbers to remember, and talked to too many people of all stripes--with respect--to clearly discern most of them.

[Ken Burch]

22. Caving in today won't SAVE any troops. And you know it.

In three months, the Senate will have the same party-line breakdown it has now. Nothing can happen between now and then to make any GOP'ers go dove. They've all committed to being "good Germans".

[NoodleBoy]

25. it will save more troops live's than otherwise.

And I really can't believe you just called our Democratic congress Nazis. that's so disgusting.

[Ken Burch]

28. I didn't. The term "good German" referred to the GOP senators

who still won't ever turn against the war. I wasn't calling Dems "Nazis". The leaders I'd call cowards, today, since we all know they gained nothing by doing this and just weakened the party permanently. And you can't deny they are no longer deserving of our confidence.

[John Q. Citizen]

24. Reletively fewer? More are dying everyday. I lied to hundreds of voters

on thier doorsteps last November.

I told them Jon Tester would oppose the illegal invasion of Iraq and fight to bring our troops back.

Instead he just voted to pay for sending more, and to pay to keep our troops in Iraq. I'm not rolling over like Tester did , and as you advocate.

Tell you what. Why don't you send Tester a big contribution and say good job, please keep voting to fund the war. Put your money where your mouth is.

[NoodleBoy]

26. Yeah, so what, Tester got into office and immediately started licking Bush's boot?

[Ken Burch]

30. No. He was good on some stuff. But he didn't have to go along with this.

You're basically saying we should accept the leaderhship's decision here without question. Even though following the leaders blindly has never been a good choice for this party.

It's only the activists who have principles.

[NoodleBoy]

33. so you're saying you'd rather have Tester play chicken with a sociopath, with our troops caught in

the middle?

And I'm not saying we should accept the leadership's decisions without questioning, I'm just fed up reading posts by people saying that any position taken by the leadership other than the writer's position is a complete horrible sellout and they should all be run out of town on rails.

[Ken Burch]

35. Isn't it worse to give in to a sociopath rather than "play chicken" with him?

sociopaths can't be talked down.

And if we can't stop the war until 2008, stopping it won't matter. Especially since the Iraqi oil system will have been privatized by then and Iraq will be nothing for the rest of its history but a U.S. colony.

And we've all accepted past compromises by the leadership on other issues. The problem is, you see this as just another opportunity for horse-trading.

The war has to be stopped now. The privatization of Iraqi oil has to be stopped if Iraq is to remain an independent country. There is no excuse for Democrats to endorse Bush's Pax Texica.

[NoodleBoy]

37. so apparently you see through my eyes now, since you think I see this as "just another

opportunity for horse trading."

look here:

Defunding the troops= Bush being a stubborn a-hole and letting the troops in Iraq die en masse because they haven't been able to buy food, armor, fuel, ammunition

Funding the troops + congressional oversight as to where that funding is going + airing what needs to be changed in Iraq= Less troops die than in the other option, the war might be fought better, not as much money will be wasted.

[eagleswing963]

39. This sucks, but lets face it..

For 6 years this joke of a leader has been running things his way. His buddies (Rove & Co.) have done all their evil to remove opposition.

Worse off, the GOP TV, I mean Fox News, has done all it can to make Bush the new messiah.
I wanted to drive to Fox last night and beat Ms. she male Coulter with a fucking bat when I saw her on @ 9:00 PM acting like the so called "christian" she is.

Should we let go what the Dems did? No. But I realize that in spite of how many soldiers die in Iraq, Bush will not budge no matter how many times they sent that bill with timelines back.
I remember how someone said on 60 Minutes that Bush would keep troops in Iraq even if the only person who supported him was his dog!

Then every time they did it, O'Reilly, Hannity, Buchanan (who did he fuck to get paid by MSNBC?), Coulter, and the asian right wing cunt Malkin would have spewed to the GOP sheep about the Democrat traitors who "don't support the troops".

Bush could care less about approval ratings, Mr. "ex Fox News" Tony Snow has said that over and over. Bush could care less how last Novembers election went.

He knows all he has to do is ride out the next year and a hlaf, then he retires with a fat pension and perks, and millions of dollars in speaking engagements.

In other words, look a tthe big picture. This sucks, but they have to start somewhere.

[Ken Burch]

40. I agree with some of your analysis

I'd have left out the "asian cunt" thing, though. Malkin's ethnicity has nothing to do with this.

[wundermaus]

23. Minimalism...

The only thing we can do is stop feeding the monster that is killing us.

1. Drive only when absolutely necessary and when you do drive consolidate your stops to maximize the efficiency of the trip, accelerate gently and drive slower - always below the speed limit and on the freeways... no more than 55 mph. Do not drive, fly, or travel for pleasure.

2. Do not buy any pre-made and convenience foods. Stock up on basic foods such as fresh fruits and vegetables, rice, beans, and canned foods as they will start to limit access to effect our resolve.

3. Do not buy anything except barest essentials, and pay off all credit debt and then put the credit cards away and do not use them. Only pay cash... and cancel all non essential services.

4. Do not watch television or listen to the radio, read newspapers, or magazines. Only access information via the Internet. If the Internet is disabled, turn off all electric devices except absolute essentials such as refrigerators or freezers from sunset to sunrise.

5. Do this for 6 months. Renew for another 6 months as needed until desired results are accomplished.

That should get their attention.

[JDPriestly]

31. They could at least bring a vote in principle to end the war.

By that I mean that they could simply hold an up or down vote on whether the congressmen and women want us to get out of Iraq within the year. The vote doesn't have to be tied to the funding. It does not have to have any teeth. Let's see how many of these "representatives" agree with the American people that we should pull our troops out asap. Of course Bush will not respect the wishes of the Congress any more than he respects the wishes of the American people. So what! Democrats need to tell the American people that the Democrats are on the side of the American people on this issue. It is absolutely essential. Otherwise, what is the difference between voting for a Democrat or a Republican at least on this very important issue. This vote makes Democrats look like two-faced, hypocritical fools who don't have the courage of their claimed convictions.

[DU GrovelBot]

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[JDPriestly]

38. After this vote, the Republicans will be able to say of the Democrats

They are just as blood hungry as we are -- except they will raise your taxes. Face it. Bush bought the Democrats' votes by agreeing to fund individual Democrats' special projects. It makes the Democrats look just as corrupt as the Republicans on top of being just as blood hungry. This is just the ugliest, most despicable conduct that I have seen in a long time -- and on the part of Democrats. This is just awful. Already, fingers are being pointed at Feingold for having refrained from filibustering this bill to fund the killing in exchange for pet projects in his home state.

This whole thing is much uglier than just having OKed money for the war. It's blood for a form of graft -- funding hometown projects. This is just shameful. Isn't there one person with integrity in Congress. I wish one of them would have the honesty and integrity to stand up and admit what is going on.

So, now Louisiana gets some of the blood money to fund what we are led to believe will be Katrina reconstruction. Well, Bully for Landrieu. Don't count on that money going to help the poor in New Orleans. Most of them are long gone. The Katrina money will go to build fancy hotels and casinos. And it is being traded for money to kill our soldiers. As for the money going to VA hospitals. Now isn't that a wonderful deal. On the one hand, you agree to spend more money to kill and injure our soldiers and on the other, you agree to spend more money to mend them. The more money you spend on the killing and maiming, the more you need for the mending. It's a waste of lives, a vicious circle.

The Democrats have just made a huge, huge mistake. Next thing you know they will agree to lower taxes on the top 1%. What a bunch of two-faced stupid duds. In 2008, the Republicans are going to use this to defeat these idiots.

In 2004, I stood behind a table and talked to voters for weeks on end. In the weekend before the election, I personally walked three precincts for Kerry. And that was just that election. And this is my reward. I am mad, mad, mad.

[JoeDuck]

43. Voters must use their votes wisely

We must make it clear that we will not vote for any candidate who states an equivocating position on funding the occupation of Iraq and our participation in that country's civil war. Not only must we declare our intention, we must stick by it. I'm tried of people -- read that "the people we elected to end this war" -- saying they're against it but refusing to vote a hard line.

Maybe it's time for some independents to woo us.