Democrats MUST resist the Pakistan-Afghanistan escalation

[Ken Burch]

I can understand Candidate Obama feeling the need to show "toughness" on the campaign trial by making threats about Pakistan and deeper involvement in Afghanistan.

But we HAVE to stop him getting in deeper.

An escalation in this region, given all we know about the way people fight there, is inevitably going to get us into a situation in Southwest Asia as bad as the one i Southeast Asia that killed 50,000 Americans and 1,000,000 Vietnamese, destroyed the Johnson Administration and created the Second Republican Ascendancy that we've just now ended.

This is not a winnable war.

And trying to impose democratic and secular values in Afghanistan, while destablizing the recovering democracy in Pakistan(U.S. attacks there will almost certainly lead to yet ANOTHER military coup, CANNOT BE DONE.

Iraq is proof of that.

Before it's too late, before Our New President gets dragged down by something that isn't what this Administration is supposed to be about, WE MUST BRING THIS TO A HALT!

We may need massive resistance. We may need to shut down the Capitol and the rest of our major cities. But we cannot let this nightmare happen again.

Don't let "HOPE" be slaughtered in the Khyber Pass.

[LuvNewcastle]

1. Well if it's going to be stopped,

it better be stopped very soon, because my brother and a whole bunch of other guys are being sent to Afghanistan next month. I don't think protests would do any good and I don't have any other ideas.

[Ken Burch]

2. I truly hope it can be stopped, for the sake of your brother and his comrades-in-arms

and the sake of all those in Pakistan and Afghanistan who will experience nothing but increased misery if it does go forward.

New tactics will be needed if resistance here is to succeed.

[leveymg]

3. This isn't nation-building or war for oil The parallels with Iraq and Vietnam aren't accurate.

There's a major problem with just packing up and leaving Afghanistan, as we are in the process of doing in Iraq. We entered Afghanistan with a limited mission of hunting down UBL and eliminating al-Qaeda forces. Bush failed to do that, in largest part because of the decision to invade Iraq. What he did manage to do was to recruit tens of thousands of Afghans to the cause of al-Qaeda, which is also growing more powerful in Pakistan. What do we do now?

The key to a successful exit strategy is the Pashtun, the largest ethnic group in Afghanistan who also predominate in the semi-autonomous tribal region of Pakistan. The Taliban are one faction of the Pashtun, and this one is allied with Jihadist elements in the Pakistani military/ISI and funded by Saudi radicals. There is another opposing faction, that is far more amenable to coexistence with the west. Obama's strategy seems to be to build up that part of the Pashtun and other ethnic groups so that they are strong enough to keep power in Afghanistan and reverse the Jihadists in Pakistan. Will that work? Time will tell, but the alternative options are worse.

[Ken Burch]

5. And how will BOMBING Pakistan do anything at all to achieve that?

n/t.

[closeupready]

14. It won't, and from what I understand, it is turning Pakistani opinion against the US.

n/t

[ixion]

6. so you proposing propping up a puppet government?

gee, that ought to work out well. :eyes:

And, how is the desire to game Afghanistan's government NOT nation building?

No, sir, this is a fool's errand and one that will not end well.

[Ken Burch]

7. Especially since, as the Iraq example proves(as did the Vietnam one before it)

That any government kept in power through American arms is automatically discredited in the eyes of the people it is meant to govern.

[closeupready]

15. Besides which, we've tried doing that in Pakistan before, and it never works.

IMO, because she was known to be corrupt and amenable to being bought, Benazir was supposed to be that puppet dictator, and her murder ruined all those plans.

[lk9550]

21. well said

people should really get a clue about the US's motives

[Journeyman]

4. From the time of the IraqAttaq, I've believed . . .

these wars won't be over 'til they tear this country apart . . .

Nothing I've seen in the past six years has altered that vision . . .

[Chan790]

8. Um...no.

Respectfully...but, no. My sole reason for opposing the Iraq war was that it was a distraction from the war in Afghanistan that we should have kept up until we won it the first time around.

Any candidate who espouses such a platform idea as this can count on not having my vote. Some wars are wars we actually have to fight.

[Ken Burch]

9. Even though you know that

1)Karzai has no support and no authority whatsoever.?
2)It's meaningless that Kabul is slightly less respressive when things haven't changed at all outside of Kabul(and if they haven't by know we know they can't)?
3)The war is unwinnable?

Sad. You've gone back to "bear any burden, fight any foe". And all Democrats learned in the 60's where that axiom HAS to lead.

[Chan790]

10. I reject all three premises.

1.) I don't think we have any need or desire to remain hamstrung to the Karzai presidency. He was elected by the people of Afghanistan and if he truly has no support he'll be removed through that same process...by the people of Afghanistan. That's a non-sequitur to our involvement in the ongoing Afghan conflict.

2.) I reject both of your presumptions here. Not only are things capable of improvement, but we have a vested interest in insuring that improvement. I possess no illusions over the ease with which it'll be accomplished, but it must be accomplished nevertheless. These insurgent forces in this case must be given no safe harbor anywhere in the world. The proof that it can be done is in the pudding, we were well on our way to achieving this goal before the boy-genius decided to divert resources and troops to fight his pet war in Iraq. We made the mistake of allowing them to escape and regroup. Now we have to start over, more or less, against an enemy who is in many ways stronger than they were to begin with.

3.) If you truly believe that the war is not winnable, then you've accepted that the death of America that they wish to bring about is presently-inevitable. It's a simple matter of what Huntington called the "Clash of Civilization", one side or the other...is going to cease to exist; they've committed to a course of action where they'll fight and kill until they are destroyed, even if it means killing civilians, sacrificing their loved ones and neighbors and engaging in acts of cowardice...even if we lay down arms against them. It's not "We'll fight them there, so we don't have to fight them here.", it's "they're going to fight us, whether we fight back or not." Given that, I'd rather fight than be slaughtered. The inability to accept something obvious, even when in front of your nose, is absurdity.

I certainly do not believe in "bear any burden, fight any foe." I believe in destroying this one foe and know the burden is lighter to do it now rather than later. It's not unlike dealing with cockroaches...though I suspect that you'd propose that we sit down and have diplomatic talks with the roaches where we agree to accept their shit-wallowing way of life. Peace at-any-cost is enslavement, a lesson that my ancestors learned two millennia ago.

[polmaven]

11. Well said, Chan790.

Well said indeed. While I was adamantly opposed to both Viet Nam and the Iraq invasion/occupation, and have proteseted in the streets against both,I believe this is a fight we MUST win. Just like we had no choice in WWII, we have no other choice now.

[bobshin]

16. Warmongers. War is not the answer. Instead of all Dems opposing this

inhumane idea, all Dems need to push for Kucinich's Peace Department. Wars only escalate hate and many innocents are killed in our name. Unless this happens on our own soil we are spoiled brats who have no right to dictate such murder elsewhere. Who were the supposed 9-11 hijackers? Saudis. Where's the war against them? Oops, we have a vested interest in their oil, nevermind.

[Such a Bird]

17. I completely agree with you.

Iraq was a distraction from our inability to find Osama Bin Laden. The Taliban were allowed to cross the Afghanistan border and fester in Pakistan. Pakistan is a NUCLEAR POWER. The Taliban is imposing Sharia Law and getting closer to having REAL influence in major cities in Pakistan, as the Pakistani military is proving its inability to decimate them.

The Taliban must be destroyed.

[get the red out]

19. Yes

The Taliban is absolute evil. But so is Saudi Arabia. We need to get off oil too. Saudi Arabia has pumped money into Pakistan setting up schools that have produced the Taliban. We have to see these links and how this evil got such a hold in the world. Oil! Oil! Oil! We fund the Saudis, they fund the Taliban.

[sui generis]

12. I think I really have a profound hatred

for the middle east, with very very few exceptions. Dubai and Jordan - the rest can go straight to hell.

And as far as I'm concerned can go straight to hell without our oversight and involvement.

Human rights are the ONLY standard. Any country where America believes we have a greater interest in their economic wellbeing than their human rights track record, we're equally guilty of shooting gays to death in the streets, beating women for showing an ankle, and tacitly accepting the murder of women who have dishonored us by allowing themselves to be raped.

Should we spend another dime on anything to do with these countries? What is wrong with us?

[get the red out]

18. I agree

I hate these piece of shit countries too. And our addiction to oil has allowed the worst of the Middle-eastern Clerics to make people's lives hell, ESPEICALLY the lives of women. We need to tell them that any aid at all will be based on human rights. Human rights are all that is important, and they need to get the message that women are human! We have every right to dictate conditions on money we send to those monsters. These countries boast some of the worst, most disgusting, inhuman beings on the planet. I don't think I would even consider the clerics in these countries human. They are fucking pigs and no one will ever make me consider anyone that treats women the way they are treated in those countries anything but low-life pigs.

[closeupready]

13. I completely agree.

100%.

[Wednesdays]

20. K&R

:kick:

[Glory89fan]

22. I agree with you

Escalating this war will make Obama just as much a warmonger as Bush.