DU Name change...

[Triana]

...I suggest it be changed to ProgressiveUnderground (PU? - Okay maybe something else that has the word 'Progressive' in it). ProgressiveDemocraticUnderground (PDU?)

Democrats are dead. Sorry, but they are. IMO, if Dean does NOT end up as DNC chair, we're screwed. Dean is the ony one who can lead the party out of this abyss.

Period.

[rwork]

1. I say

take the underground out.We have grown .

[Triana]

4. ProgressiveDemocrats? (n/t)

[rwork]

6. Yes

I like that.

[NoodleBoy]

2. If they're dead, then who's sitting in those seats in the Senate?

Or who's in those Governor's mansions? Who are those non-Republicans in the House?

Shit, nobody said the Republicans were dead when we we had a massive Democratic majority in the Senate a couple decades back.

[Triana]

3. Sure, they're sitting there but...

...what are they DOING? Voting for every assinine policy bu$hit puts forth? Ignoring each other? Not working together cohesively to get the progressive agenda out there, for civil and voting rights, economic justice, the environment, consumer and worker protection. What?

Kennedy, Kerry, Boxer - a few are actually doing something. The rest? What are they doing? What are we paying them for?

[NoodleBoy]

5. they're DOING what every Senator does when they're not in the spotlight

You really think the things they do during a lame duck session determine how good they are the rest of the time?

Excuse me, when's the next Senatorial elections?


Oh yeah, TWO YEARS away. Yeah, let's start a two-year run up. We'll somehow convince Democratic party supporters to give us every dime they have to spare IN JANUARY AFTER AN ELECTION YEAR and, uh, I don't know. I guess it really must be dead! Weeeeeeeeee.

[DaedelusNemo]

10. So, no plan whatsoever for the next two years? /nt

[NoodleBoy]

15. How about, let's wait until the next session begins and a couple months

after to pinpoint Republican weaknesses.

That's a whole lot better then "Oh well. Fuck it."

[DaedelusNemo]

19. Better, but still not enough

First, because the repubs have consistently been thinking these things through ahead of time and if we don't we're screwed again just like we have been.

Secondly, because we know plenty of things about them already to begin working on. We know, for example, they're going to try to launch a 'reform' of SS contrary to what most people want. We know they're going to launch a 'reform' of taxes contrary to what most people want, focusing on shifting the tax burden onto labor and away from wealth. We know that they will continue to try to play cute with torture, and that they are still insistent on violating human rights for whoever they arbitrarily choose. We know they intend to trash democrats as do-nothing obstructionists who simply oppose every new idea.

We can wait for them to build their box for us, or we can take the freakin' strategic initiative for the first time in a decade and build our own box ahead of time and be ready for the shit they will pull.

[NoodleBoy]

27. and because they've barely held on to a majority for the past decade,

that means we're dead?

Taking the initiative is hard to do when your party doesn't set the agenda. We've tried before, and gotten little press coverage. Give this new coverage some damn time before declaring us "dead."

[DaedelusNemo]

36. Is there some plan for the new coverage we can't be told about?

I'm not seeing any evidence of constructive activity going on at all, unless you count the controversy over who is to be the DNC chair.

To get press coverage, you have to make news. Democrats coming out and complaining about Bush isn't much news. It is at best a 30 second squib on CNN: DEMS BASH BUSH ON SOCIAL SECURITY, maybe a quote from the politician who said the most telegenic thing, it's in rotation for a day and poof - unless the republicans decide they can make some mileage out of it, in which case they pound it for a week or more on their shows.

Dems coming out with generically idealistic vaguenesses is likewise not much news. SOMEBODY MAKES SPEECH is the headline, probably won't even get a quote - just your head silently yammering away as the narrator sums up what you said in twenty words or less.

To make news you have to either do something real with real consequences - that is, some sort of procedural action like a filibuster, or a substantial change of how the Democratic party operates, or you have to come out with a serious and plausible proposal on a serious issue. Not minor twiddling - that's not newsworthy - but a bold new step that sparks a reaction. If the Dems want to make the news about SS and start something that will go on for a week, at least, come out with a totally worked out and plausible proposal to fix SS - and cut the payroll tax by thirty percent to boot - by getting rid of the special tax cap exemption loophole for the wealthy. "Did the Dems just say cut taxes 30%?!?" That's news. Not, 'we wanna privatize it, too, but less and we'll cut benefits, too, but less', that's a blah crap sandwich and nobody wants it. It's all about making good TV, and boldness of ideas, expressed boldly, and made a potentially consequential reality in the form of a specific, actionable plan, - especially when those ideas correspond with the desires of most people - makes good TV.

I didn't declare anybody dead, although i certainly think that the Democrats have at best been sent to the showers to think things over. But your notion that i - and the Democratic party - should just sit back and see how things go seems utterly self-defeating to me in the face of a determined, relentless adversary. What new coverage, exactly, am i supposed to be waiting for?

[brainshrub]

7. I've been thinking the same thing.

But honestly, PU is a crappy name.

How about LiberalUnderground?

Changing the name might head off a lot of problems if the Greens, or another party, take off from the ashes of the Democrats.

I'm not giving up on the Democratic Party just yet. Even if Howard Dean does not become chair there are other, equally qualified, individuals who can spearhead a renewal. All I expect from the Democratic leadership is that won't turn their backs when issues like democracy and human rights are on the table.

Ultimately it is up to each and every one of us to rebuild the party. There is no "them", there is only "us."

[Ganja Ninja]

8. Maybe Liberal Underground?

:shrug:

[Triana]

17. I wouldn't mind that...

...it would put the word LIBERAL right in the faces of the FR's and others. Let them know it's not the dirty word they'd like it to be and that we're not afraid to use it just because they criminalized it.

Then again, this is all just pissin in the wind 'cause it isn't our decision to make!

I'm just flusterated with the Dems (MAJORLY) that's all.

[saltpoint]

9. The Roman Catholic Church was dead after Luther, too.

Whoops -- then there was the Counter Reformation and a lot of turf got re-established real fast.

Political parties' influence fluctuates. The times they are a'changing' but we don't know what the cards will say.

It all looked like hopelessness and despair when Nixon crushed McGovern in 1972 -- another shitty Republican president cheating to win an election against an intelligent and caring public servant -- but the Watergate indictments began to roll in, and that great Nixon victory was very short-lived.

I'm a Democrat and I'm hanging in there.

---
edit: typo

[New Earth]

11. no way it should stay as is.

it is 'Democratic Underground', not 'Democrat Underground'.

Just because some of the Dem leaders aren't, in some people's opinions, taking enough action to protect democracy or democratic values doesn't mean the people who participate on the messag board need to fall into the same hole.

Doesn't everyone else here want to strengthen and preserve democracy? it's not about the leaders, it's about the concept.

or at least that's what i thought...

[Triana]

12. the 'leaders' are supposed to support the concept

They are supposed to be our voice in gov't. otherwise, we have none. That is the concept of Democracy. The elected reps are the voice of the people on the Hill. I keep wondering when they are going to start representing us? We can want to strengthen and preserve democracy all we want, but until/unless we force our leaders to do the same, either by outvoting them and/or leaving their party if they don't, it won't happen.

There has to be some semblance of cohesiveness. There is on the R side and that is why they're successful, and we are not.

But, this started as a name change suggestion. It would be nice to have a name that denotes inclusion of not only the Republican Lite Dems (DLC) but also Greens, Indys, and Progressive Dems. The DNC / Democratic Party doesn't seem interested in that concept at all. They want to be Repub Lite - period. Kennedy is the only senator I heard speak out about that. I keep wondering where the rest are?

I guess I'm suggesting that we be (starting with the name) the change we'd like to see.

[blondeatlast]

13. Not our site so it's not our call. nt

[Triana]

14. True...

...I'm just:

A) venting and;
B) bandying the idea around

:)

Just flusterated, I guess, as we all are.

[NoodleBoy]

16. Maybe if we were "Whig Underground" we should consider a name change

or maybe "Democratic-Republican Underground" or perhaps even "Federalist Underground."

But... wait for it...



















WE'RE NOT!

[paulk]

18. how about

BashDemocratsUnderground?
or
IfDeanDoesn'tGetTheDNCChairI'mLeavingThePartyUnderground?
or
I'mAProgressiveAndYou'reNotUnderground?
or
IKnowWhatAProgressiveIsAndYouDon'tUnderground?

[Triana]

20. It doesn't help...

...to be thin-skinned and unable to take constructive criticism.

[paulk]

22. ah, but there's the rub!

your definition of constructive criticism and mine aren't the same. And it's very likely that your definition of progressive is different from mine also.

In fact, I would wager that your definition of "thin skinned" is different than mine.





:)


oh, and BTW - how is opining that Howard Dean is the only person who can save the Democrats from the abyss :scared:

a criticism?

Seems more like a religion to me...


O8)

[MontecitoDem]

21. you hit the nail on the head!

Can't wait til this DNC crap is over - over - over!

And if someone would like to start a new site called PU - go for it, but leave democratic underground alone.

[Psephos]

42. BINGO! n/t

[justy329]

23. I am proud to be a Democrat

This is a forum for mainstream Democrats. I say to the far left-wing: Adios. If this board is a discussion by Americans who love their country and want to keep us safe while opposing Bush's incompetent policies abroad, want to have the wealthy pay their fair share, want to keep good paying jobs in America, want to protect the right to choose, believe in the promise of stem-cell research and that our seniors have their social security secure: we will no doubt attract a majority of voters.
To those who bash such loyal Democrats as Kerry, Obama, Clinton (The Prez. and Senator), and virtually anyone not named Dean or Kucinich: You are not doing any good here. Just as Freerepublic would turn off mainstream GOP, this site is a turn off to many in the mainstream of the Democratic Party.

[itzamirakul]

24. Welcome to DU, justy 329. This is a forum for ALL

Democrats. Whatever you are calling "mainstream" Democrats are just a part of a whole. As someone who is a left-leaning Democrat, I must take exception to the fact that you are now inviting me to leave this forum.

I would think that a lot of us Progressive Democrats have done far more to keep the party together than anyone else and perhaps if more of our ideas had been listened to, the "centrist" leaders would not have lost so many elections for us.

We have lost so many seats in Congress that it is embarrassing. Since the DLC/DNC has been in charge of the party during these losses, I think it would be difficult to blame that on the "far-left Democrats" that you are telling to leave this forum since they are not needed.

[justy329]

25. Thanks for the welcome.

You misinterpreted my message.
I did not ask for anyone to leave. I, also, understand that as there are only two political parties we must welcome in people of all ideologies who support Democrats.
To those who are so against the Democratic Party that they don't want their massage board to share the name with our historic party, I said "You can leave." I did not mean to force anyone out for thinking differenty. I appologize if my comments were vauge.

edited for clarity.

[itzamirakul]

26. Sure...no problem

:)

[Maat]

44. I'm with you, itzamirakul.

n/t

[frictionlessO]

28. Oh well I dont think you're gonna get the far lefties outa DU

But you're of course more than welcome to stay and try and change our minds. Not all non-centrists bash the officials you listed.

Other than that... what itza said.

[justy329]

29. I truly do thank you for the welcome.

I absolutely love the Democratic Party! I just was watching a special on Discovery Times and seeing all the Democrats like Kerry, Edwards, Lieberman, and Clark talk about protecting the middle class and allowing our nation to be respected in the world just made be gush with pride. (Watching Kerry commericals at johnkerry.com has the same affect!)
My beef is not with liberals.
My beef is with those on this board who go nuts on Obama and Feingold for voting YES on Dr. Rice's appointment. Seeing a thread that was filled with people bashing my senators, Hillary and Schumer, made my sick to my stomach. They are good senators and great Democrats. If this board is filled with 100 post threads lamenting one little thing this senator said or one thing that this governor said, then we will not get anywhere.

[Zebulon]

30. as another newbie here

If this board is filled with 100 post threads lamenting one little thing this senator said or one thing that this governor said, then we will not get anywhere.

As another newbie here, I agree with you. Our intraparty squabbles will only benefit the Republicans. There is a place for debating what our priorities should be, and the direction of the party going forward, but I don't see the point in nitpicking everything elected Democrats do.

[frictionlessO]

31. I understand both your frustration and their pain....

I dont take to bashing, but there are actions by some officials lately that make me wonder if Im wanted in this party, but then I find heros as well.

People vent a lot on DU and a large part of the anger you see displayed is people hurting and seeking out others who are as well. Many threads and posts are way out of line but people are nothing if not impassioned around here. Most folks would just as soon as apologize the next day for anything offensive they said. Ive had several PM sessions with that very focus...lol.

The truth is there are plenty of ongoing actions and groups forming at DU all the time... plenty of work is done here but there are also plenty of other things that go on that all just make up part of the internet life here at DU.

Think of it like a little city where theres so much to do and see. Things to take offense at, things to rejoice in.

Also dont ever even come close to thinkng we match the freepers for sheer psychotic weirdness, they threaten us with our lives over there daily. That happens very rarely at DU. We are nothing like them in regards to our fringes by and large, ok? Please remember that even if you do decide to leave.

and finally a BIG ol' :hi:

[Obviousman]

32. If anything we should drop "underground"

If we should learn one thing from this election, it is that framing is everything. Let's look at our revolting counterpart "Free Republic" Should the name of the website get out into the press from time to time, a name like "Free Republic" sounds better than "Democratic Underground" I'm not saying that they have a better page, but in terms of attracting people, "underground" has a negative connotation.
A name like Progressive Majority seems to have a positive air as well some legitimacy to it.

[genius]

33. Dean's not a Progressive so your point is uninformed. Ask him.

He'll talk about how he is to the right of Bush on certain issues, such as the economy. I'm curious where you would go if you left the party. Certainly not the Green or Peace and Freedom Party. They don't particularly care for Dean.

[justy329]

34. it's true.

Those on this board complain about Fox brain-washing America, well they were brain-washed also by the media.
The ONE single issue that made Dean a liberal was his oppositon to the war.
The media made him out to be an out-of-touch unelectable flaming Northeastern liberal.

Do your research folks. If you support Dean, do not do so because you consider him to be liberal.

[mandyky]

41. He also was the first Gov to sign a civil unions bill

But I agree the media is the one who deemed Dean a liberal. However, I don't see progressive and liberal as equal terms. I have been a Dean suporter all along and am under no illusion that that he is a liberal. I _do_ think he is a progressive though.

Dean himself said he wasn't a liberal. Vermont liberals constantly were at Dean for not being "pro-environment enough". Personally, if I had to label Dean, I'd call him a pragmatic populist. His whole theory is that to work on social justice there has to be a good economy and balanced budgets.

[meow2u3]

35. What about "American Majority"?

[DaveinMD]

37. wrong

I like Dean and hope he gets the chair spot. But I get sick of the thought that he's the only hope in the party. It simple isn't true. There are so many great Democratic leaders.

[dangle]

43. Agree

I agree. I think the energy Dean has brought to the table is wonderful, but I'm tired of Dean people telling me that the party is dead without him. We need to unite and not divide. There are many great Democratic leaders.

[Celeborn Skywalker]

38. Here's my beef with changing the name of this site:

Democratic Underground encompasses all aspects of the party from the social democrats all the way to the moderate democrats. For instance, Kucinich, Dean, Kerry are all Democrats, yet have vastly different ideologies and beliefs. On the other hand a name like "Liberal Underground" or "Progressive Underground" would not encompass moderates of the party and would leave out many of the current members of DU. It would be much less inclusive. That's why I think Democratic Underground should keep its current name.

[Pirate Smile]

39. No. Democrats aren't dead and the name should stay.

[autorank]

40. NFW--We're DEMOCRATS...of all stripes. No marginalizing.