Advice please: Kosher cooking.

[Skinner]

My wife and I recently met another couple with a new baby (born three days after our baby), and we have invited them over for dinner at our place. They keep kosher, and have suggested that perhaps it might be easiest if we just ordered sushi. My wife and I are certainly willing to do that if cooking a kosher meal is not feasible, or if it would make our guests feel more comfortable. But before we choose that option, we would like to know whether it would be possible for us to prepare a decent (and strictly observant) kosher meal in our non-kosher home.

My understanding is that pretty much all of our pots, pans, dishes, and utensils are off limits. Our friends did say that it would be permitted for us to put a piece of fish on some aluminum foil and grill it outside in our gas grill, and then serve it on paper plates. This seems like a workable solution. (Would I be able to touch the fish with the grilling utensils we own? I'm assuming no.) We would want to serve some other things along with the fish. Could we use the same aluminum-foil-on-the-grill approach for cooking vegetables? Do we have to observe any special rules to prepare a salad, or is that fine because it's not cooked?

Any help or advice would be appreciated. And you don't have to limit your suggestions to the questions I posed above -- If you have *any* good tips or recipes for kosher cooking in a non-kosher home, I would love to hear it.

Thank you for your help.

[Lurking Dem]

1. I don't keep Kosher.

It can be very, very hard when trying to serve friends who are strictly Kosher at your home.

Your utensils, cookware, dishes, everything you serve in will make the food treif. Storing anything in your refrigerator will make it treif.

The best bet to have a carefree. comfortable, and delicious evening would be to have the food catered by your local Kosher deli. Keep in mind that just because a deli serves Kosher foods does not mean that the deli is Kosher.


Buy plastic/paper plates, glasses, and eating utensils. Serve an assortment of Dr. Brown's sodas. Staying away from the vast majority of Kosher wines will probably make everybody happy. :)

And don't plan the meal during Pesach.

[Skinner]

3. I can't even put food in my refrigerator? Good thing you mentioned that.

I would not have even thought of it.

I read on one of the links below that wine is not Kosher (except for Kosher wines, of course). Is all alcohol off limits, or just non-Kosher wine?

Dr. Browns is a good tip.

[Lurking Dem]

4. Alcohol is pretty easy.

You can kind of divide it between "flavored" and "unflavored". Ones that are unflavored are generally okay. Things like liqueurs are often not. Flavored vodkas tend to vary.

Most beer is okay.

Some brands will have a Kosher certification on the label but some that don't are still okay.

Any alcohol made from grain has to be poured out or otherwise gotten rid of for Pesach.

Some scotch's and Irish whiskeys are aged in sherry casks. This is a no no. Oak is fine.

Juices require certification to Be Kosher. I'm not sure about other mixers but think they have to be certified.

Feel like bailing yet? :D

[Skinner]

6. I don't feel like bailing yet.

When we have guests over, we usually like to cook for them. It just seems more welcoming. I rather think of this as an interesting and fun challenge. I think our friends would appreciate the effort if we could pull it off.

[Lurking Dem]

7. You can do it!

And feel free to ask them about the refrigerator. There are a couple of schools of thought on that and more than one way to follow kashrut.

[Behind the Aegis]

2. Some thoughts.

I don't keep Kosher, personally, however, I do know some about the Kosher Laws. I also asked some friends for their thoughts, so here we go (two Jews, three opinions and all :))....

Colorado Blue says to check out these sites: Chowhound (a discussion list of sorts) and the National Jewish Outreach Program. I will add Kashrut: Jewish Dietary Laws from Judaism 101.

GabysPoppy says to "order in the food and buy some plastic utensils at the same time. Or just ask your guests what they would prefer.

Gimel (who does keep strict Kosher) had this to say: Anything prepared in a non-kosher kitchen wouldn't be kosher unless:

You bought new utensils, preferably plastic or one time use. Cook only on a flame or grill. Oven cooking would be out. Kosher foods prepared in a plastic dish (a salad but cut the veggies with a plastic knife, and wash them and put them on a paper plate or paper towel). Since you are outside of Israel, the veggies (and) fruit wouldn't need some of the kosher requirements, but actually fruit might need to be kosher to ensure that it is not from the first year of bearing. Fish is a good choice as it is almost always kosher if nothing is added in packaging.

Ask a rabbi that the couple are members of his congregation, or ask them what kashrut they follow, if you really want to serve them a kosher meal they wouldn't be suspicious of. You could actually have an adviser sit during preparation to ensure that things are done accordingly. As that would most likely be more than Skinner would be going to take on for a private dinner, the fish on a grill option or ordering kosher meals and serving it on new plastic dishes or disposable paper plates.

I will add that it is nice to extend the gesture, but it may be too much work for a simple dinner. The fish (make sure it of a kosher variety, most fish is, but not all) "route" would be best if you really want to prepare something. However, you are correct that using your instruments would make the food non-Kosher. You could buy something brand new or ask them to borrow their instruments, bearing in mind that you will have to be careful with them so as not to make their cooking tools non-Kosher.

As you can see, there are a few opinions (surprise, surprise) on how to prepare Kosher food in a non-kosher kitchen. I would say the easiest is to order food and serve on plastic/paper plates and use utensils made of plastic that have never been used.

BTW...congrats again on the new baby.

[Skinner]

5. That is helpful.

I am fine with buying some inexpensive cooking utensils to prepare food on the grill. Are all store-bought new utensils Kosher as long as they have never been used? Or do I need to get special utensils, or do something special with them?

Are all veggies Kosher (as long as I use Kosher utensils and paper plates)? If I prepare them on the grill on some new aluminum foil, would that be okay?

Some other questions which were not addressed:

Are the herbs, spices, salt and pepper that I have in my house okay to use? How about olive oil? Salad dressings?

(Perhaps a dumb question): Can I bring the food into my house? I'm assuming it is okay to do chopping and other prep-stuff in my home, as long as I use Kosher utensils, paper plates, etc. Is that correct?

I'm feeling like this might be possible. If we do it, we will be sure to clear everything with our friends ahead of time. They don't have a rabbi that I could ask -- the husband is one of the founding members of a lay-led prayer group. Basically they describe themselves as very observant, but they do not observe gender-based rules that are different for men and women. (I hope I described that correctly.)

Say hi and thank you to all of your friends. :)

[Behind the Aegis]

8. Some more info, and then some!

I am fine with buying some inexpensive cooking utensils to prepare food on the grill. Are all store-bought new utensils Kosher as long as they have never been used? Or do I need to get special utensils, or do something special with them?

All new utensils (packaged and unused) are fine. There are even ways you can make your current utensils kosher and that is at one of the sites I listed above. It has something to do with boiling them and such. However, I don't know how your guests will feel about that, so might be best to go with new (but you could ask and they may say it is OK to "kosherize" some of your utensils).

Are all veggies Kosher (as long as I use Kosher utensils and paper plates)? If I prepare them on the grill on some new aluminum foil, would that be okay?

Veggies and fruit are kosher (except grapes, in some instances). Actually, they are considered "parve" or "neutral" and can be served with other pareve dishes (fish) or with fleishik (meat) or milchik (dairy). This is a site to a Kosher restaurant and its ways of checking veggies...Star-K Requirements For Vegetable Checking.

Some other questions which were not addressed:

Are the herbs, spices, salt and pepper that I have in my house okay to use? How about olive oil? Salad dressings?

All of those should be pareve (you can double-check), though there are some cooking oils that are not pareve; olive oil, however, seems to be OK. With salad dressings, I would check the label for certification (see below**). However, bacon ranch would be a "no-go"! :)

(Perhaps a dumb question): Can I bring the food into my house? I'm assuming it is okay to do chopping and other prep-stuff in my home, as long as I use Kosher utensils, paper plates, etc. Is that correct?

Yes, you can bring the food into your house. However, make sure anything you are going to serve to them is kept separate by wrapping. An example would be an unwrapped head of lettuce would need to be wrapped before placing it in the fridge. The same goes with the other things, as long as they are wrapped, they should be OK. BTW, the only dumb question is the unasked one. :) (Well, not always, because we both know there are some really stupid questions out there.)

I'm feeling like this might be possible. If we do it, we will be sure to clear everything with our friends ahead of time. They don't have a rabbi that I could ask -- the husband is one of the founding members of a lay-led prayer group. Basically they describe themselves as very observant, but they do not observe gender-based rules that are different for men and women. (I hope I described that correctly.)

Since they have no Rabbi, asking the husband would be the best course of action. I will suggest planning everything first, then asking, as opposed to asking (calling) every few minutes.

A few extra notes:

Preparation: Since you are going with fish (a pareve dish), you can keep the entire meal pareve or change it. Let's say you marinate the fish in a butter-based lemon dill sauce, then the fish is no longer parve, but dairy. However, if you use margarine, make sure it is pareve to keep the meal that way. Some margarine are actually dairy, so check the label. This is the same with preparing the veggies. You asked earlier about salad dressings, there are a few that are pareve, but just as many are dairy. You can provide options for your guests and they can decide to change the pareve meal to dairy. If, somehow (and I can't really think of a way) the meal is changed to meat, that is OK too. However, pareve and dairy meals are usually the easiest to prepare. Bread can also be pareve, but can also be dairy, depending on how it was made.

What is considered kosher? Most foods have some sort of marking to indicate if it is Kosher, meat, dairy, or pareve. The letter "K" as a stand-alone is the most common. However, I have read that doesn't necessarily mean it was approved by a rabbi. The following are certified as being kosher:

**

If a product is "dairy," it will have a "D" by the kosher symbol (or say "dairy"). If a product is "meat," it will have a "M" or say "meat." If pareve, it will say "pareve." Note: a "P" means the product is kosher for Passover (Pesach)! The "P" does not mean it is "pareve!" You may also see it written as "parve."

Scared yet?! :)

This message has been approved by Voodoo!

[Behind the Aegis]

9. If you really want to blow them away...

...you can take a crack at the blessings over the food.

Blessings during a meal

The "before eating bread" and "before drinking wine" are the most common.

[blueraven95]

10. also, don't forget that Passover is next week

and that is a whole other bundle of issues - you might want to wait until after that to have your dinner!

[Skinner]

11. Yeah, we're waiting until after Passover.

We agreed that would be best.

[Lurking Dem]

12. I have an amusing Pesach story for you.

I am Sephardic and my husband is Ashkenazic.

The very first Passover I cooked my husband, he was so excited all day. He couldn't wait.

I laid out the table and put out the food and he looked. There was grilled fish and sesame and matzoh coated chicken, Moroccan carrot salad, little meat pies that are actually wrapped in mashed potato and baked, haroset that had apricots and dates in it, a Turkish "cake" soaked in orange syrup. And he got a puzzled frown on his face. And he turns to me and asks,

"Where's all the Jew food?"

I had cooked a fairly traditional Sephardic meal and he was expecting gefilte fish and brisket. About the only thing he recognized was what was on the Seder plate!

We laugh about it now! And he has developed a fondness for some Sephardic food and I now do a mix of both types at Passover.

[leftynyc]

13. Your Sephardic food sounds delicious

Do you have a recipe for those meat pies? I'd love to try them. I know we're going with rack of lamb this year. Can't wait.

[Lurking Dem]

14. Sure!

The recipe is Moroccan (which is where my family was from) and they are called Pastelles in the Ladino/Spanish tradition.

2 pounds potatoes
1 medium onion, chopped
3 Tablespoons plus 1 cup vegetable oil, divided
1 pound lean ground beef chuck
3/4 teaspoon salt, divided
dash pepper
dash ground allspice
1/4 teaspoon ground cinnamon
1/4 cup chopped fresh parsley
juice of 1 lemon (about 2 Tablespoons)
3 eggs, divided
matza meal

1. Boil potatoes in their jackets unti very tender. Cool under cold running water and remove skins.

2. While potatoes are cooking, prepare filling. Sauté onion in 3 Tablespoons oil until translucent. Add meat and sauté until browned and clumps broken up. Mix in 1/4 teaspoon salt, pepper, allspice, cinnamon, and parsley. Remove from heat. Add lemon juice and mix well. Set aside to cool slightly.

3. Mash potatoes and mix with 2 eggs and 1/2 teaspoon salt until of dough-like consistency. Pinch off balls about 3 inches in diameter. Flatten between hands into circular shapes. Place a heaping Tablespoon of filling mixture in center of circle. Fold edges of potato dough over filling so no filling remains visible. Repeat with remainder of potato mixture and filling.

4. Beat remaining egg. Dip each pastelle in egg and then in matza meal.

5. In large frying pan, heat 1 cup of oil. Place pastelles carefully in sizzling oil. Do not crowd. Fry until golden on both sides, turning carefully. Drain on paper towels and serve hot.



These things are dangerously good. The recipe is from Sephardic Holiday Cooking by Gilda Angel and I highly recommend it. It's divided by holiday with several menus for each one from different countries - Turkey, Syria, Rhodes, Morocco, Algeria, etc.



edit typo

[leftynyc]

15. Thanks so much!!

I can't wait to try it. Any other yummy recipes would be equally welcome - I love to cook.

[Lurking Dem]

16. Well my son's favorite

is a kind of pumpkin latke. He would have lived on them if he could have. Well, those and hummus. :) You can look forward to making these after Pesach.

Fritadas de Calabaza

1 can (16 ounces) cooked pumpkin
1 cup all-purpose flour
1/2 cup firmly packed light brown sugar
2 teaspoons ground cinnamon
1/2 teaspoon ground nutmeg
dash ground ginger
3 eggs
1/2 teaspoon salt
vegetable oil for frying

(If you're starting to sense a pattern with my apparent love for fried foods, I AM a Southern Jew! ;) )

Combine all ingredients and mix into a thick batter.

Heat oil in skillet and drop batter by well rounded tablespoonfuls into oil. Brown on both sides and serve hot.

I put salt and pepper on them and serve them as a side dish but some also serve them for breakfast with butter and syrup.

[leftynyc]

17. OOOOOH those sound delicious

Our family always has a Channukah party and these will make a great addition. I'm so bad with my recipes - you know, a handful of this, a dash of that, cook until done - makes it hard to share.

Have you always lived in the south?

[Lurking Dem]

18. Most of my life.

I started out in NJ though! Did a stint in CA and AZ but bulk in Texas. But my Mom's family was from TN so I always came here for vacation and stuff. And my ancestry is all SC which is where I am retiring to.

I'm the same way with cooking really. Like my hummus. I don't actually measure anything except I start with 2 cans of garbonzos. I put in way too much garlic. Way too much lemon juice and zest. Way too much Cavender's seasoning. Then I add tahini, toasted sesame oil and way too much olive oil until it's the consistency I want. Fresh mint. Voila!

I doubt I have ever made it the same way twice.

My son loves my homemade taco sauce. The first time was an experiment that worked so the first thing he said was, "WRITE IT DOWN!"

I did but it didn't come out as good the next time! LOL!

My husband's grandmother's answer to "how do you make your pound cake?"

"You take some flour."

"How much flour?"

"You know. Some flour!"

Gotta love it!

[leftynyc]

19. LOL LOL LOL

Sounds just like my dad's mother (may she rest in peace). I can still hear her with her very heavy Russian accent telling me that the secret to perfect roast chicken and turkey is a tall glass of orange juice. Makes the most delicious and beautiful glaze. She lived here for over 60 years (died at 92) and still had a heavy, heavy accent. We got a guy from Russia as our IT expert at work (Siberia actually) and I'm the only one who can understand him!!

I'm from New York. Went to Arizona State for school but otherwise, love New York like a member of the family although would love to retire in Scottsdale. My whole immediate family is in New York (scattered in Westchester county) and the cousins (we're all close) run from California to Paris.

[Lurking Dem]

20. My husband is a Manhatten boy

(I use the term "boy" quite loosely here - he's 60!)

A big chunk of his family are in CA as well and a few in Atlanta, GA. The rest are on Long Island.

Paris? Do they have a guest room? :)

[leftynyc]

21. A Manhattan boy that lives in the South??

Now that's what I call culture shock!! Though I'm an admitted New York snob :blush: Can't help myself.

Bobby in Paris is a jazz musician who has been involved with a woman for around 20 years or so. She's Japanese and when we first met, she only spoke French and Japanese. With our family (a bunch of yakkers), she had lot of trouble keeping up but has come a long way. I'm a little embarassed to say that although I've been to Paris a few times, I've always stayed in a hotel while making sure we met up for dinner. I keep such weird hours on vacation that it's easier for everyone. In fact, the only two years our family didn't have a sedar for Passover were the two we were in Paris together.

Will you be having a big sedar?

[Lurking Dem]

22. He has lived here for 27 years

and he's still "from New York" or when talking to a fellow New Yorker, "from the City" the capital C being implied.

He DOES like the warmer weather down here though.

We are having Seder at a dear friends house and it will be probably 3 tables of 6 or so. They like to do things big. It's fun. My husband always tries to do the 30 second Haggadah and we play an amusing version of hide the afikoman that I won't talk about here.

(Okay I'm kidding but I am a firm believer that G-d has a sense of humor!)

[leftynyc]

23. Small one for us this year

Just 9 of us family. No small kids (niece 12, nephew 15). My mom and sister (my twin) are both great cooks so these family dinners are always fabulous. We do the service but it's kinda abbreviated. Should be a lovely evening.

[Maiden England]

24. Not all fish is kosher

Because no one has mentioned this yet - to be kosher a fish must have fins and scales. I say this because Catfish, which is extremely common (here in Louisiana) is not Kosher.

But Salmon, Tilapia, Tuna, etc is fine.


Other tips - cooking on a grill, like everyone has said, you can do baked potatoes wrapped in foil, or any number of foil pouch recipes - check out Alton Brown's page on the Food Network website - he had a 'good eats' program devoted to pouch cooking, which would be perfect for this task. Bag salads are usually kosher, and off the top of my head, I believe Fleishmans unsalted is about the only pareve margarine I know I can always find in the supermarket, although up on the east coast its a lot easier to find Kosher foods.