Since nobody ever looks in here, I figure it's safe to ask: Is such hyperbolic anti-Israel sentiment

[rockymountaindem]

common among the "mainstream left"? I think you know what I'm talking about.

[blueraven95]

1. seems to be.

But since most of us have never lived our lives with rockets being shot at us everyday, I have a hard time taking any of their opinions seriously.

You know if militants in one of our neighbors did the same thing to the United States the reaction here would be swifter and harsher, regardless of who is president, and the vast majority of Americans would agree with it.

:hi:

[Betsy Ross]

2. Yes.

And common among Leftist Jews too.

[Behind the Aegis]

3. It will get worse.

Anti-Israel bigotry is an allowable form of hate at DU. We will also see quite a bit of people "slipping up" and saying "Jews" when they mean "Israelis." Most will not be banned. Be prepared for an onslaught.

[question everything]

4. Very much so. And you don't even need an excuse

like the 2006 was in Lebanon or what is happening now.

There are young people who were born after 1967 who never knew another Israel but a strong one.

There are people here who don't accept the notion of a Jewish state - but have no problem with Lebanon which was torn from Syria after WWI to provide a majority for the Arab Christians.

Of course there are some who deny the Holocaust and more who claim that the Arabs in the region should not have "suffered" because of the Holocaust.

They choose to ignore the fact that all the countries in the former Ottoman Empire got their borders arbitrarily drawn. Including that of Iraq where the oil rich Kuwait was cut off it. Hussein was not that crazy when he invaded it in 1990.

The choose to ignore the fact that the the new Jewish state accepted the 1947 United Nation resolution to split the British mandate into two states: an Arab and a Jewish one. That the Arabs attacked immediately and Israel won and, yes, captured territories.

What we call now the West Bank was supposed to have been the Arab state yet Jordan, then Trans Jordan, annexed it and only Pakistan and Britain recognized it. Yet no one was wailing about the poor Palestinians not having their own state. Egypt took over Gaza. And while residents of the West Bank at least had Jordanian citizenships, the Gazan were in limbo, with no passport and no citizenship.

They choose to ignore the fact that while there were about 600,000 Arab refugees who escaped their homes after Israel 1948 War of Independence, a similar number of Jews escaped Arab states and came to Israel where they were absorbed and became participating citizens. In contrast, the Palestinians refugees still live in refugee camps, now third or fourth generation, being supported by UN funds with no desire by any Arab country to help them out of this cycle of misery and poverty.

The choose to ignore the fact that Israel was attacked first in 1967 when it turned the tables and won territories - that were always open to negotiations.

They do not want to be bothered with the facts, because, after all, progressives are expected to stand by the "underdog" except that the Palestinians have been exploited by their own people. Certainly it has always been convenient for the governments of, say Egypt and Saudi Arabia to inflame feelings against Israel so their people would not start thinking about their own social justice and demand more participation. And many Palestinians now dominate university campuses in Europe and in this country where they can sway the perception of impressionable young students.

Interesting, if you ever get the courage to visit the Israel/Palestinian forum - where only a published story can start a thread - you will realize that many, critical of Israel, come from Israelis sources. But you will never find any story from an Arab or an Iranian source critical of their own government.

[blueraven95]

5. they also choose to ignore

that the Israelis have worked very hard to make the land even remotely usable. It was basically a barren wasteland, as I understand it, before the concerted effort to plant trees.

[question everything]

7. Ture, however they do not care

Anti-Semitism has been well ingrained in Europe, but went below the surface after the Holocaust. It was convenient to view the Jews as the victims, the powerless. Once Israel has shown that it refused to play this role, after the 1967 war, all of a sudden Europeans, mostly, did not have to hide their feelings about Jews, under the guise of attacking Israel.

And, lest we forget: many in this country cheered Hitler, Henry Ford was Anti-Semitic, and let's not forget the St. Louis ocean liner.

[marybourg]

6. Yes.

And it's nothing new either. But calling them on it, to the extent you have the stomach for it, often works.

[Meshuga]

8. It's amazing

It is amazing that even here in DU there are those who try to justify Israel not having the rights to exists. And they set the tone in the I/P forum. Questioning Israel's action in this extremely complex conflict is one thing but trying to find justification to spill the "Israel should not exist" hateful bullshit is another. I don't believe these people want peace and I truly believe that some of these people enjoy and hope for the rise in Palestinian casualties since it helps their cause.

[rockymountaindem]

9. What can we do about it?

I've given up on trying to argue with them much because there's really nothing to talk about.

[Meshuga]

10. Nothing

I feel stupid when I bite the bait and waste my time debating with them.

[question everything]

11. If you know the facts and somone clearly distorts then

like wanting to "free Gaza," then you point this out. Otherwise, as you and others have observed, it is pointless to argue with someone who just repeats propaganda by others.

[Behind the Aegis]

12. Sometimes, it is fun to play with them, like a cat with a mouse.

Other times, it is important to squash their idiotic propaganda. For every post, there is no telling how many people read it, thus making a response important. The big "haters," there is no point in discussing things with them.

[question everything]

13. And then there is the bizarro world

Many on GD and I/P actually claim that there is a pro-Israel bias by the moderators! That threads that are moved to I/P are pro-Hamas, while pro-Israel posts stay there! I have tried to alert on posts that clearly are flaming - without suceess.

And then, on I/P they allow some open threads - not starting with a published story so I started one which was quickly incorporated into a major one. OK. It generated several back and forth comments and then, several hours late, my OP was... deleted. Like having a whole discussion thread without the starting point.

[Ellen Forradalom]

14. Yes, it's common and it's tiresome.

Hamas has been shooting rockets into Sderot and other communities for eight years. That alone is sufficient to explain to me a forceful reaction. How long is Israel supposed to put up with this shit?

[JackRiddler]

19. As long as it's imprisoning and starving the Palestinians in their own country?

[Meshuga]

20. I don't expect a truther to understand the complexity of the situation

I expect people like you to oversimplify the situation into an evil vs. good (evil being the side you dislike). But do you really think that what the Hamas charter says about Jews and Israel will change even if there is no more occupation? So I think your little question is either desperately naive or you just want to come here to stir up trouble. Perhaps both?

[JackRiddler]

21. Using ad hom categories to avoid thought.

Your "response" strategy, sentence by sentence:

1) "I don't expect a _____" (personal category MrWiggles constructs to suit himself, in this case a non-sequitir of complete irrelevance to the discussion) "to understand a complex situation far beyond their limited mental means" (so MrWiggles needn't actually respond or acknowledge).

2) "I expect a ______ to do something that..." (wasn't actually done in the post to which this response is directed, thus another non sequitir, but MrWiggles will pretend anyway).

3) Now that MrWiggles avoided question, MrWiggles can demand answer to preferred question.

4) Accusation of troublemaking with sinister insinuation.

Also, "come here" = MrWiggles's imputed ownership of "here."

Voila.

[Meshuga]

22. Nice try! However, your "question" was not meant to be a question

Your "question" is your answer to what you perceive to be a solution. Not a true question.

In response to someone posting, "How long is Israel supposed to put up with this shit ?" you said, "As long as it's imprisoning and starving the Palestinians in their own country?"

My response was based on my judgement of your simplistic answer (which was given by you in form of a question) given the fact you are a truther. You are right, instead of focusing on you personally I should have only focused on the stupid content of your original post.


Here is your own strategy:

1- Give a stupid non sequitur response to a post
2- Get a reaction
3- Play victim after reading the reaction
4- Use this negative experience for your own purposes

[JackRiddler]

23. For the record, I don't support anyone firing missiles and I don't support Hamas

But this is about the reality, not how the sides attempt to define each other as evil:

- Who is the occupier/imprisoner, and who is the occupied/slow-starved?
- Who does 90-99 percent of the killing and most of the initiating, too? (Including breaking the recent ceasefire?)
- Who is the one receiving massive annual support from US taxpayers, dating back 50 years?

The latter makes this an American war and thus my concern. The US cannot claim neutrality or a broker's position. Even if it argues Israel is in the right, that still doesn't constitute a justification of the material support.

As for Hamas, since nothing they can do can go very far beyond symbolic effect, even with the occasional killing (which only serves to trigger Israel's massive pre-planned offensives), Hamas should perhaps scoop up spent Israeli shells, mix them into soil contaminated by depleted uranium, and fire those at Sderot. There'd be no shortage of either, and the supposed cause would be better served.

--

PS - "Truther" is your false imputation.

[Meshuga]

24. So, what do you think it is the cause for the material support from the US?

You say "this is about the reality, not how the sides attempt to define each other as evil" but then you create a simplistic context of the issue assigning more blame to one side.

There is a war and with that we have occupation and human suffering. However, both sides have a share in this. I say this only because you ignore some important variables in all this but if Israel was given assurance of its own security there would be no occupation.

This is not a "you bomb our civilians then we will do the same" situation no matter how easy this argument makes in the process of assigning blame to one side. And Killing civilians is unacceptable whether 1000 innocent people are killed or just a handful. Israel is not killing people for revenge. Their plan is to destroy Hamas. In the same way Obama supports a war in Afghanistan that indirectly kills thousands of civilians. Obama's argument is that we are fighting a war against an enemy that threatens our security. The enemy in that war hides among civilians and the continuation of that war is going to cause more innocent deaths. And all this because Americans feel the threat of terrorists who live far away and don't have rockets hitting border towns.

However, while I believe that Israel has the rights to protect its citizens, I do not support Israel current conflict in Gaza. I don't think it was the right thing to do. Not only because of the suffering of innocent but because it enables the fantasy of those willing to put the blame on the side they perceive as the evil side. Or at least say that one side is more at fault.

You say you do not support hamas and I never said you did. But it is troubling that in your argument you ignore the other side of the coin and all its variables that makes this conflict a more complex issue than what you seem to imply in your questions. It is my opinion that the latest attacks in Gaza will make things worse for Israel. But the end of occupation would not stop the rockets from being launched -- it would make it much worse.

[Meshuga]

15. The one that you put on your ignore list still has the balls to post here

In this forum. I mean, does she think we are stupid?

[rockymountaindem]

17. I didn't put her on ignore

But I'll do my best to ignore her in practice. I don't know if she thinks we're idiots, but I have a hard time believing that her claims of being Jewish are some elaborate ruse. On the other hand, I think it's fairly clear that she's exactly the kind of person who loves soaking up the inane rhetoric from ANSWER protests and such.

[Meshuga]

18. That was a good decision

I also don't use my ignore list because it keeps me from seeing (thus being able to respond to) the ugly posts.

[marybourg]

16. I now have 8 names on my ignore list;

just added 2 tonite. I hate to do it, but it allows me to to skim and then read "the latest" without feeling persecuted by the same ugly anti-semitic provocateurs over and over. I'm remembering why I've been keeping my distance from the left (where I am on every other issue) for the last few years. DU drew me back, but it can be an ugly place for a jew at a time like this

[abq e streeter]

25. Don't really know about the "mainstream" left, but defintely too much of it

among the more progressive /radical left, where I actually would feel like I belonged, but am sickened by the prevalence of the blame the Jews, everything is Israel's fault etc crap that sounds to me to be pretty much the same shit you'd hear from the Klan or the John Birchers a couple of generations ago.I get especially angered when I see supposedly intelligent progressives claiming in all seriousness that what Israel is doing to the Palestinians is the same as what the Nazis did. I'm all for a wide range of opinions being allowed and encouraged on DU, but those analogies are disgusting. I remember Skinner finally told DUers who claimed that Ahmadinejahd (sp.?) wasn't a Holocaust denier that the facts are clear that he is, and posts claiming otherwise were no longer welcome. I've been wondering if the same could be done for posts equating Israel's treatment of Palestinians to the Holocaust . There is plenty of room for criticism of the influence of AIPAC, the policies of the Israeli government etc, but comparing any wrongs done by Israel, to the systematic torture , starvation, slaughter and mind-numbing levels of cruelty done to millions of innocents is grotesque and profoundly and obviously inaccurate , and should be confronted directly . I admit I don't personally have the stomach to do that on DU ( trying to keep my blood pressure down) , but have done so in person when ( on just a few occasions) progressives of my acquaintance have stated such beliefs ( or that "the Jews" did 9-11 etc). Sorry for my rambling on this. Someday perhaps I'll learn to organize my thoughts a little more cogently. But I do sometimes wonder if Skinner could issue a similar statement( like the Ahmadinejahd one) about the racist "Israel is as bad as the Nazis" hate speech that seems to be acceptable among some segments of the left.

[Behind the Aegis]

26. Sorry to splash cold water on you...

...but some things NEVER change.

[abq e streeter]

27. On one level I agree, but what's changed it that racist crap is coming from the left now

I expect ignorance and hate from the right...but hold our side to an infinitely higher standard