I am neutral

[Two Americas]

I think I am actually neutral - it is an odd thing that I have never experienced before during primary season going back 40 years. Always I had a horse in the race and strong feelings about the outcome, or else the race had been decided so I got to work and did the best I could with whatever candidate had been nominated. I didn't decide to be neutral, and I don't have any long explanation or rationalization for being neutral, I just am.

I thought that you guys might appreciate a reality check. I know that if I had a strong preference for a candidate it would be hard for me to trust my objectivity. In the feuds between the supporters of the two candidates, the hatred and smearing and destruction is running one way by a factor of 100-1. I don't think I am exaggerating.

I don't have any particular complaints about Obama nor about his candidacy or campaign - no more than usual with Dem candidates - but his supporters are the creepiest bunch of people I have seen in politics since George Wallace supporters in '68. They are far worse than the Bush supporters in the last two cycles, in my opinion.

The Obama supporters bear absolutely no resemblance to the RFK supporters in '68, by the way. I was there.

The Edwards support forum has been a safe refuge for many of us. Almost everyone will vote for the eventual Dem nominee come November, I am confident of that, but for right now people are grieving, bitching, commiserating, and talking about the issues that Edwards brought to the race and about the future of the party and the country. But even there we now have a plague of zombie-like Obama promoters stalking and harassing us, telling us that if we don't get on the Obama bandwagon we are betraying Edwards or are not being loyal to the party. They use these syrupy, sleazy sales pitches that remind me of Amway salespeople or recruiters for cults, and will not take the hint to go away and instead persist and persist and persist, desperately trying any tactic to get the sort of crap that is happening in GD-P going in our forum.

I know we have Clinton supporters in the Edwards forum, but they are respectful, sane and considerate.

I have never been a supporter of Senator Clinton - not a hater either, I think she is admirable in many ways - and have had political disagreements with many of the Clinton supporters here, but by God I stand with you folks now. There is something deeply disturbing about this Obama phenomenon, and Clinton supporters are taking the worst abuse I have ever seen Democrats take at the hands of fellow Democrats.

[rodeodance]

1. We have had only a few O. fans drop in. They have been 'escorted' out quickly

by many of us. So far as i know they have stayed out of this forum.
We proudly 'guard the henhouse' as they say down on the farm. And as more Hillary supporters join us here--there is that norm that they do so also (i believe i can speak for our group on this).

Having said this--that does not mean we do not recognize she and her campaign have their problems. Heck we know her faults--America knows them!!
But I believe she has strong policies for our future and will work hard to achieve them.

Welcome
rd

[libbygurl]

2. A warm welcome to you!

Thank you for your kind support. We really avoid going out there anymore. Too toxic, not good for one's blood pressure. More and more HRC supporters just hang out here and pretty much leave the OU to the inmates, with an occasional excursion out there.

[durrrty libby]

3. Nice to see a sane post. The "followers" are way beyond creepy

The Amway comparison is funny, true and sad.

No doubt that many of these followers have deep psychological issues

[rodeodance]

4. i have said --hope they have good health ins. as they will need De-Programming

[BlackVelvet04]

5. Well, welcome to the forum....

and thanks for your support.

I used to post on a mixed board....conservatives and liberals and the conservatives were some of the nastiest people I've ever encountered. I was stalked over the internet by a couple of them. BUT, it was good training for dealing with the Obama supporters.

What I don't get is if they are so sure Obama is going to win why all the hatred and vitriol directed at Hillary and her supporters?

[Two Americas]

17. transformation

I keep seeing people whom I once thought were wonderful, sane and intelligent posters become Obama followers and their entire personality changes. I won't mention names and call anyone out, but I just read a thread you are posting on and there is yet another long time DUer who always seemed intelligent to me talking in some sort of weird double talk and dreamy incantations and sales slogans. What is happening to people?

[BlackVelvet04]

26. That double talk was really mindboggling....

I just quit after awhile because I was getting dizzy from the spin. (Are we speaking of the Africans and Muslims now have hope one?)

[Two Americas]

27. yep

That is the thread - "president of the world" etc.

[BlackVelvet04]

28. I couldn't believe that the poster

tried to turn it around by saying I couldn't read. amazing.

[xmas74]

6. Welcome!

For displaying vast amounts of civility alone you deserve this beautiful (nearly art piece) cupcake.



(I used to be a baker and I love giving out cupcakes, even if only a cyber cupcake.)

[Two Americas]

12. wow

I love it! Isn't it great the creative things people do with food? That is gorgeous.

[xmas74]

16. check some of the other threads here.

I posted different pics of cupcakes all around this forum.

I believe my favorite are the frogs.

[LadyVT]

7. Thanks. It is hard to take.

[NastyRiffraff]

8. Thank you! As an Edwards supporter who is now supporting Hillary

I understand completely. Part of my decision to switch to Hillary after John dropped out was because of the hatred shown by many Obama supporters. That's not to say that's completely one-sided, but on the whole, it's the Obama people who are spewing the most hate. Strange that these same people either: a) demand that everyone support their candidate, right now, because Hillary had better drop out; or b) Claim that "we don't need you anyway," because you're old, "yesterday's news," Republicans, etc. I guess that's their idea of gaining support for their candidate?

Anyway, welcome!

[Two Americas]

18. I see that

Hey NastyRiffraff. Good to see you.

The contradiction you mention is one of dozens that I see every day. There is an OP right now where someone I once respected is using these revolving arguments that contradict each other. One argument - "he is popular in Africa because he is Black" - is challenged, so the poster then smoothly and quickly switches to another argument - "it has nothing to with him being Black." The statements are not really arguments, they are sales pitches, verbal jousting to wear down the marks and get them to buy. Or, the true believer tries to portray themselves as an actualized enlightened individual who "gets it," who has "seen the light" and portray the mark in contrast as hopelessly old fashioned or out of fashion, or unhappy and unenlightened, or about to be left behind by the giddy starry-eyed mob. It is exactly like the tactics that people use to get people into cults.

When people cannot say why they support his candidacy, or keep switching their reasons for supporting his candidacy with such rapidity and ease, the only conclusion you can reach is that they are not being honest, will not say why they really support him - or maybe they don't know why?

The problem is that while these tactics may be working in the primaries, they are going to fail miserably in the general. People hate two things more than anything else - being given a sales job, and being evangelized. I think Obama may be the perfect candidate for those two approaches - a wonderful product to sell, and a wonderful guru savior to evangelize people about. The problem is that those two approaches, which a certain segment of party activists have been using more and more over the years, are themselves doomed to failure no matter how shiny and glamorous the product is and no matter how Messiah-like the celebrity is.

People do not care what product the door-to-door salesman or telemarketer is peddling, and they don't care what religion the evangelist is trying to convert people to, it is the approach and the creepiness of the person making the approach that turns people off.

[Mark Twain Girl]

22. This is excellent analysis. You nailed it.

The statements are not really arguments, they are sales pitches, verbal jousting to wear down the marks and get them to buy. Or, the true believer tries to portray themselves as an actualized enlightened individual who "gets it," who has "seen the light" and portray the mark in contrast as hopelessly old fashioned or out of fashion, or unhappy and unenlightened, or about to be left behind by the giddy starry-eyed mob.

Oh yes. My favorite fluid belief is "Obama is a revolution/change/transformation/carnival with dancing unicorns." And then when you start pointing out the details of Obama's (purposefully small) record, he's no longer a revolution. He's merely "the best we have." He's merely "better than Hillary." He's merely "imperfect and dealing with the realities of policy making." The switch is made with such ease, it's hard to tell if the person is (a)a cynical saleperson or (b)a non-critical true believer.

Honestly, my big question mark with the general is the MSM. If Obama gets the nom and if you have KO (and it doesn't bother me what KO is up to, because I always disliked him, but it does gall me to see commentators I do actually like join in) and Matthews and all the usual suspects continue their fawning, it will be less of an issue. It's hard for me to picture the MSM turning on their Messiah, but I suppose it could happen.

On edit: I just ran in/ran out of GDP and I saw someone do exactly what I mentioned above re: the switch.

[Raffi Ella]

9. Thank you

for taking the time to share your thoughts with us.I really appreciate it.I too think they are on par with the bushies,maybe even worse.I see so many similarities between the cult-like adulation for Obama and I also see similarities in Bush and Obamas personalities.It's frightening to say the least.

The tactics Obama's supporter's are displaying make me sick.I am stunned that the admins allow this against The Clintons - they are Democrats for crying outloud.

I can't even begin to keep up with the lies and smears going on in GD P.I've come this >< close to deleting D.U. from my bookmarks and forgetting about this place.

[UALRBSofL]

10. Thanks for your understanding and posting your thoughts

It's east to see by reading the threads how creepy it is. I find it almost impossible to post in GD-P any more. We appreciate your heart felt post and your welcome here any time.

[saracat]

11. Hey Two Americas , my savior in the Edwards group! Welcome!

I often hide here and post as my sanctuary. I don't have to "defend". my views as I now often have to do on the Edwards Forum.It is wonderful to see your voice here!

[Two Americas]

14. hi saracat

We have been getting a little taste of Obamabuse in the Edwards forum, and I realized that the Clinton supporters have been getting that stuff much worse for much longer. It is not right.

[rodeodance]

20. do you

know this one?
he has been exceptionally rude/gross. i also feel like he has stalking me.

i finally alert him a bit ago--but i see his name has not been erased.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=5019597&mesg_id=5021572

[Two Americas]

13. thanks for the warm welcome

...and the beautiful cupcake. :)

[Mark Twain Girl]

15. Good post. I'm an Edwards person and I agree. The Clinton supporters are different --

which is why I'm here. :) I decided that I didn't want to try the Edwards forum because my support for him is like an island of positivity, and I want to keep it like that for the long fights ahead. I didn't want to get involved in any struggles. Also, I feel strange about the Edwards people who went for Obama and are being unhelpful with their bandwagon.

I'm past the "they're not real Obama supporters, they're just trolls" argument. If they're trolls, why haven't they been chased off by the "real" Obama supporters? If they're trolls, why have then been allowed to set the mood for this message board?

Why are other Dems being treated like the enemy?

[Two Americas]

19. hi

I wonder what it would have been like had it been Edwards-Clinton down the stretch like this rather than Obama-Clinton. I am sure that the fur would be flying, but I am certain that if Edwards supporters acted the way Obama supporters are now, that I would be all over them. I hope that Edwards supporters and Clinton supporters, despite disagreeing, would not stoop to the tactics we are seeing from Obama supporters.

Even when Edwards was still in the race, I don't think I ever smeared one of the other candidates, nor so alienated their supporters that we couldn't talk to each other anymore.

[Mark Twain Girl]

21. I hear you. I was very careful, when Edwards was still running

to be respectful of the other candidates. I had alarm bells about Obama even back then (the hype, the lack of attention to issues, the way the media gave him a pass, and his cheery movement), but I didn't go into it. I just didn't say anything about Obama at all. But, I did find myself more and more in threads defending Clinton against ugly remarks. And, it was only very recently, since the hateful Obama fans got so out of control around here, that I said anything. I finally reached a point where I couldn't take it anymore.

There's no reason for Obama supporters to act like other Dems are traitors. So much for unity. Honestly, I think they care more about Republicans than they do about Dems with the, well, audacity to disagree with them.

It's funny you mention an Edwards-Clinton homestretch, because as I wrote my earlier post, I was thinking: "hm, what would have happened if it had come down to an Edwards-Obama race at the end?" And I think it would be just as ugly, with Obama fans posting endless threads about haircuts and how Edwards supporters had blood on their hands and Edwards supporters are racists, etc. I have no doubt that fur would fly regardless, but this is different. I can't imagine the people who have left or found haven here would want to go back to that community. I could be wrong. But to me, the dynamic has fundamentally changed.

[katty]

23. I was Edwards, then over to Clinton - thanks for post

[judaspriestess]

24. I read on one partic thread we BETTER get on the Unity bandwagon

I really don't remember the rest but it was a sick twisted twilight zonish post. Edwards still has a group? I was for Edwards and posted a few times times in his forum but I did not know one still existed.

[maddiejoan]

25. Welcome!

Edwards was a very close second choice for me.

[Lilith Velkor]

29. I've always liked your posts, TA

I never cared much for Clinton, but the Obama phenomenon triggers my PTSD pretty badly. I *hate* cults. So, here we are.

[Two Americas]

30. a possible benefit

There has been a bitter divide for years between us (Koochies, leftists, radicals, "commies") and many of the Clinton supporters. Wouldn't it be ironic if the Obama "unity" phenomenon fostered better communication between the two groups and actually did create consensus and solidarity anong Dems who have been feuding with each other for years? We are talking to each other. Hell, I never imagined that I would be posting in the Clinton supporters forum. I am not even mad at anyone here. :) Besides, they are giving me beautiful cupcakes.