Scary Newsweek story

[FloridaJudy]

Odd. I thought I'll already posted this. Someone who intensely dislikes AA posted this article on another group I belong to. I thought I'd post it here before the anti-AA types in the lounge find it.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18368218/site/newsweek/

It strikes me that this group - which calls itself "AA" - is the antithesis of what AA stands for. The dilemma: how do those of us who know better handle this kind of publicity? We can't excommunicate them from AA (and what a nasty precedent it would be if we could).

All I can do is say "Well, that's certainly not typical of any AA group I've ever attended". Any other thoughts?

[NMDemDist2]

1. I'm amazed it's lasted this long

violating every tradition there is

:cry:

[KitchenWitch]

2. That is NOT AA

x(

Unfortunately, I have encountered groups similar to that, without the "assigned" sponsorship. Essentially these groups tend to pedestalize certain charismatic members who happen to have long-term sobriety and a fairly good message.

My husband went to one of these groups for a LOOOONG time, before we were married. His old sponsor blames me for taking him away. :eyes:

[Justpat]

3. Those people really give us self respecting drunks a bad name.

They are using the AA model to push a more fundamentalist view of recovery.
That sucks.

People who use dogma of any sort to make sense of their lives and frightened,
little people - just the opposite of what AA is supposed to help us become.

[Kajsa]

4. It most certainly is NOT AA.

I always go back to the source, in this case,
the 12 traditions.

I noted how many tradition they broke.
Maybe you can find more?

How in the hell can they read these at meetings?

http://www.serenityfound.org/traditions.html


AA Traditions


1. Our common welfare should come first; personal recovery depends upon A.A. unity.

2. For our group purpose there is but one ultimate authority - a loving God as He may express Himself in our group conscience. Our leaders are but trusted servants; they do not govern.- broken

3. The only requirement for A.A. membership is a desire to stop drinking. broken

4. Each group should be autonomous except in matters affecting other groups or A.A. as a whole.

5. Each group has but one primary purpose-to carry its message to the alcoholic who still suffers. broken

6. An A.A. group ought never endorse, finance or lend the A.A. name to any related facility or outside enterprise, lest problems of money, property and prestige divert us from our primary purpose.

7. Every A.A. group ought to be fully self-supporting, declining outside contributions.

8. Alcoholics Anonymous should remain forever nonprofessional, but our service centers may employ special workers. broken

9. A.A., as such, ought never be organized; but we may create service boards or committees directly responsible to those they serve. broken

10. Alcoholics Anonymous has no opinion on outside issues; hence the A.A. name ought never be drawn into public controversy. the reason
Central Office can't comment? But it's not 'outside"-hmm

11. Our public relations policy is based on attraction rather than promotion; we need always maintain personal anonymity at the level of press, radio and films.

12. Anonymity is the spiritual foundation of all our traditions, ever reminding us to place principles before personalities. BROKEN!!!!

Reprinted from the book Alcoholics Anonymous (The Big Book)
with permission of A.A. World Services, Inc.

[KitchenWitch]

5. I would say that tradition 4 is broken as well

Because their version of the program DOES affect other groups and AA as a whole.

[Kajsa]

6. True, KW.

They've broken that one, too.

[RetroLounge]

7. OMG! Whatta bunch of fundy whackjobs

I would love to go to that meeting with a large group of my friends, say 40 or 50 from my home group, then call a group conscious and vote for all new trusted servants.

There is nothing wrong with a hostile takeover of a failed group. I've seen it done.

RL

[FloridaJudy]

9. *snort*

I just thought of three members of the Fellowship I've become fond of who are former bikers. I've love to take these burly, tattooed dudes and crash that meeting. These are three of the kindest men I've ever met, but they could intimidate anyone by just standing there and glowering...

And believe me, they would be pissed if they knew a group calling itself AA was pulling crap like this.

[wildeyed]

8. Oh wow, I got sober in that area years ago.

Been to the Midtown meeting. When I was getting sober, it was a just a huge speaker meeting on either Sat or Sun night,can't remember which, mostly very young attendees and very social. There were speakers, but mostly people would talk and smoke cigarettes outside. It was not a clique or cult or whatever it has evolved into now.

There was a clique, called the Cue group or Que group or Q group, I dunno, something like that. Anyway, there was a charismatic older man at the center of it and lots of younger people, particularly women. They had a rep for being weird, and there was allegedly plenty of 13th stepping going on. I steered way clear, so I don't know much about them. But I'll bet that is the antecedents of whatever is going on there now. There was also a group that was becoming very anti-young person and someone actually told me they wanted to make a rule against really young recovering people attending meetings at a local AA club 'cause they were "taking over" :crazy:

So sad. DC was a great town to get sober in when I was there in 90's.

[ellisonz]

10. Revealing.

May says she was especially uncomfortable with the emphasis on dating within the group and sex between members. She would listen as girls her age compared notes on the men in the group they had been encouraged to sleep with, some of whom were decades older.

You must be a laboring, reproducing, submissive member of society or else we will terrorize your already weakened soul...

Sounds familiar:

Conscientious practice of self-criticism is still another hallmark distinguishing our Party from all other political parties. As we say, dust will accumulate if a room is not cleaned regularly, our faces will get dirty if they are not washed regularly. Our comrades' minds and our Party's work may also collect dust, and also need sweeping and washing. The proverb "Running water is never stale and a door-hinge is never worm-eaten" means that constant motion prevents the inroads of germs and other organisms. To check up regularly on our work and in the process develop a democratic style of work, to fear neither criticism nor self-criticism, and to apply such good popular Chinese maxims as "Say all you know and say it without reserve", "Blame not the speaker but be warned by his words" and "Correct mistakes if you have committed them and guard against them if you have not" - this is the only effective way to prevent all kinds of political dust and germs from contaminating the minds of our comrades and the body of our Party.

Mao Zedong, "On Coalition Government" (April 24, 1945), Selected Works, Vol. III, pp. 316-17.

[Lilith Velkor]

11. Any group can call itself AA, whether you deny it or not

It's interesting to note the posturing about hostile takeovers by big beefy bikers, which I have never seen happen, nor have I heard about anything like that.

No, what really happens when you dare to mention abusive behavior in the rewms to a step-believer is that they tell you it's your own fault for not finding a better meeting. Even though they just told you in the previous sentence that you can't trust your own judgement and you'll die without having the guidance of a sponser for the rest of your life.

By the way, notice how long the "recovery experts" were aware of this and didn't let patients or therapists know? TWENTY YEARS. That's a long time to protect the reputation of AA at the expense of the general public.

[Kajsa]

12. Lilith, no one here has done

any of the things you claim in this post.

Stop generalizing any group of people.
That's stereotyping and it's bigoted.

Do you have anything to contribute that
doesn't include AA bashing?
I haven't seen that, yet.

Why are you here?
To continually bash AA?
Give it a friggin rest, already!
That's not what this forum is about.

Check the rules for a DU Group - another thread.

So, why are you here?

Does this fit?

(My post in another thread)

"We need to hear more about the SOLUTION .
We know what the problem is.

But when I don't, and only read AA bashing, I question
why certain people are here."

[Why Syzygy]

13. The rules say

no one runs this group. That includes you or any other AA pushers.
And this is not an AA meeting, so you can participate as you see fit as can others.

For those of us who have encountered sobriety both with AA and without, we have EVERY right to discuss our experiences. I believe even friends and family members should be welcome here. They were in the past. Until one disagreed with AA dogma :eyes: He got barred. Remember that the next time a friend or family member stops by wanting help with a loved one's addiction. They will have to be barred from posting as well. Thanks to all who participated in that for furthering the disease model.

Why are you here? To continually push AA? What else have you contributed?

I don't like it when people are rude to other posters. You can stop that, if you will.
Perhaps the days of AA terror rule in this group are over.

[Kajsa]

14. Look over the threads to see what I have contributed.

How about you?

Did I push AA?
Where? Please show me where I wrote that.

Or- is being opposed to AA bashing
" pushing AA"? By what logic?

We have no leaders and no one runs the group.
But this is a recovery forum for discussing methods
of recovery - NOT ONE- ANY- THAT WORK.

I don't like when someone ignores that and only tries
to tear down a program that saved the lives of many
people, here. Isn't that being rude, as well?
How is that constructive?

Aren't we supposed to be helping each other, not tearing down
what works for someone else?

Who is helping other people and offering support?

[Why Syzygy]

15. The group is for

discussing what works and by extension what doesn't work. I would venture that AA fails for more people than it helps. The established AA members are not the only ones who read this group. Some of us feel that program has caused as much damage as it has solved. We are entitled to our opinions. I want people to maintain sobriety, if that is their choice, as much as anyone. Sorry, you don't have moral higher ground.

[Kajsa]

18. Bashing is having

" moral higher ground" ?!?

[Why Syzygy]

20. I am

sharing my experience. Same as the rest.
I really wish you would allow this one fact to penetrate. It is my EXPERIENCE. Call it what you will, that's what it is! I agree it sucks. Therefore, the topic of conversation.

[Justpat]

16. OK, now that is funny.

The days of AA terror rule?


:rofl:


Posting our AA experience, because that happens to be our experience, is terrorizing others?

All right then, let's rumble!

:rofl:


Because I love AA and have found a great life there does not imply that I demean anyone
else's path to wellness. There are threads here that I do not participate in because
I don't like the other means of recovery. If I have nothing constructive to say - I stay out
of it.

I like reading about the other recovery methods, but I don't feel that I would ever
follow those paths to wellness. I like where I am.

Why don't we try to accept one another and our differing challenges and methods of
getting well?

[Name removed]

17. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Kajsa]

19. The key word here is

"help".

[Why Syzygy]

21. and it's your job to

determine what form the help is? Or what the criteria is for seeking 'help'?
Unless you have details of this you would like to share, arguing about it is pointless. All I know is someone was banned.
Please, do fill me in.

[Kajsa]

23. You tell me.

You know a lot more about this than I do.

btw;

"and it's your job to

determine what form the help is?"

Where did I say that?
Stop putting your words in my mouth.

[Justpat]

22. This might seem apropos of nothing,

but I'm going to post it here anyway.

A couple of weeks ago, I considered starting a thread on character defects and how we
learn to deal with our own problems in recovery. I actually started it several times,
but decided against it. I thought people might not like to talk about specifics of
their recovery process with regard to their mental state. So I didn't do it.

When I got sober, my sponsor suggested I attend this weekly meeting where every week
a different character defect was discussed and we looked at how it acted as a trigger
for our drinking and our general sense of unhappiness.

I didn't go for a long time because I imagined it would be a bunch of losers swimming
in a pool of negativity. (When in fact, I was a loser swimming in a pool of negativity)
But I went after a while and it turned out to be the most enlightening and empowering
meeting I have every attended. I went weekly for four years. (What can I say, I'm a
slow learner).

I learned to look at my life as a mirror that was smudged and covered over with
all this fear and self pity. When I learned to look at these traits head on, I
found that the process was like washing the windows of my self. The process was to
let more light in. I started to love this meeting and the changes I was able to make
and the stability I started to feel inside. I think I wanted to post this here because
I think whatever ground we have been going over here, we need to look at it and see if
it is old ground and where can we find at least a more respectful response to one another? The process of recovery
is one of finally finding joy, and if it isn't, lets try something else.

All the best... OB

[idgiehkt]

24. I'm not sure about your last sentence

"It belongs to everyone who wants help with addiction/recovery issues, theirs or someone else's."

The mission statement says this forum is for folks in recovery. I would call codependency an addiction or addictive behavior for myself, but I don't consider myself being in recovery to 'help' the addict, I consider myself the one that is in recovery.

I've also been on this site long enough to know that no one gets someone else banned. People get themselves banned, by repeatedly breaking the rules, and they are usually given ample opportunity to abide by them before that happens.

[Lilith Velkor]

25. I am from DC

I am interested in this subject.

I have accused nobody here of anything, and would appreciate it if you refrain from putting words in my fingers.

The article in the OP points out that some members of AA abuse people, and they get away with it because other members and apologists either deny the abuse or rationalize it.

As to your post in another thread, I'm not convinced that you (and whoever else constitutes "we") know what the problem is. If you do, please state it.

[Kajsa]

27. The problem- for me-

is I almost killed myself drinking.
Everyone has their own problem(s)
and solutions that work for them.

My solution is what works for me-

[Lilith Velkor]

29. You decided you wanted to live.

That's really all there is to it.

I have a problem with people who use the power of the state to push religious indoctrination and ritual humiliation on mental patients who have committed no crime. In fact, I think that even criminals have the right to choose their own religion, and the United States Constitution agrees with me (see Amendment I.)

As long as you are not participating in violating the basic civil rights of others, I have no problem with your solution at all.

[Justpat]

26. .

:banghead:


It feels so good when I stop.

[Kajsa]

28. ROFL!

Ain't it the truth?

:pals: