Struggling with faith

[varkam]

It's still hard for me to talk about God...even to myself really. I have self-identified as an atheist for many years...even an anti-theist at times. Even reading the 'We Agnostics' chapter in the BB, I found myself reacting subtly to some of the apologetics contained within with a sense of antagonism. Ha! I treated it as if it were a flame-war on DU. I guess I have been at it for so long and it's become so ingrained in me, so much a part of my identity, that it's so hard to let go of even in the face of certain destruction.

The thing is - I know that I need to let go. I believe I need to let go. Even with going to meetings and keeping in touch with my sponsor and "working" the steps, I still feel like I have carved this one area of my life out and kept it off-limits to recovery. That I was willing to do whatever it took to get sober...except that. Turns out, that is one of the central aspects of recovery.

Needless to say, I still struggle. Maybe I will always struggle at some level...I'm sure that I will. It's just that it doesn't seem any easier and, if anything, I feel like I'm backsliding.

So I just needed to write. I really appreciate everyone here for their thoughts. Sometimes I don't respond, but it's not because I don't read what you have to say.

:pals:

[NMDemDist2]

1. this passage of the BB helped me. All I needed was a willingness to believe

and then to start acting 'as if'

when I was brand new, they told me to ask God every morning to keep me sober and thank God every night for another day sober. I didn't have to believe, I just had to DO. If I had thought everything through and figured it all out before I did any action I'd be drunk and miserable today. I did the actions and the thoughts and understanding came later. That's my experience, YMMV.

:hug:


"We found, too, that we had been worshippers. What a state of mental goose-flesh that used to bring on! Had we not variously worshipped people, sentiment, things, money, and ourselves? And then, with a better motive, had we not worshipfully beheld the sunset, the sea, or a flower? Who of us had not loved something or somebody? How much did these feelings, these loves, these worships, have to do with pure reason? Little or nothing, we saw at last. Were not these things the tissue out of which our lives were constructed? Did not these feelings, after all, determine the course of our existence? It was impossible to say we had no capacity for faith, or love, or worship. In one form or another we had been living by faith and little else.

Imagine life without faith! Were nothing left but pure reason, it wouldn´t be life. But we believed in life-of course we did. We could not prove life in the sense that you can prove a straight line is the shortest distance between two points, yet, there it was. Could we still say the whole thing was nothing but a mass of electrons, created out of nothing, meaning nothing, whirling on to a destiny of nothingness? Or course we couldn´t. The electrons themselves seemed more intelligent than that. At least, so the chemist said.

Hence, we saw that reason isn´t everything. Neither is reason, as most of us use it, entirely dependable,""
(keep reading here http://www.whytehouse.com/big_book_search/book/ch4p55.html)

[Joe Chi Minh]

2. What an insightful post and quotation, Pecos. I sometimes think you've

forgotten more than most of us have learnt. (In case you're not familiar with that expression in the US, it's a compliment, albeit expressed in a cack-handed kind of way).

[NMDemDist2]

3. it helps me too, to remind myself of the things I learned as a newbie

the struggles and mental contortions I put myself through.

just a reminder of how far I've come and how this knowledge has dropped from 'head knowing' to 'heart knowing'

it's a gift. and it keeps on giving me a way of life I never dreamed possible, but I also have to remember how hard I had to work for some of it and how even today, i need to make the effort to keep it fresh.

life is funny, yanno?

:pals:

[Joe Chi Minh]

5. Love the "heart-knowing" thang!

[NMDemDist2]

6. we call it "the two foot drop" in the rooms

:rofl:

[Joe Chi Minh]

4. Two things, Varkam. To want to believe, is to believe.

Also, although the sense of it should be intuited, rather than understood literally, i.e as a "carte blanche" invitation to sin (There! I've used that religious word) : "To the innocent, all things are innocent."

[Iggo]

7. It's why I had to leave the program (after six years...lol.)

I just couldn't justify the program with my atheism. And I wasn't about to lie just to complete a step.

I go to about a week's worth of meetings right around my clean date, just to encourage the newbs.

Other than that maybe a couple meetings a year...if that?

Still clean after 12+ years. And I'm grateful the rooms were there when I needed to hang around dozens of clean people at a time. Those first couple of years were tough.

[Brucie Kibbutz]

8. thanks for posting this

The religious aspect of AA is something I just can't do so it's encouraging to read how much time you've remained sober. It's always a good experience to attend a meeting but it's a rare occasion because my beliefs make it impossible to follow along with the program entirely.

[NMDemDist2]

9. I have abandoned many a meeting when they hit the GOD stuff too hard

I don't consider myself religious at all, never joined a church in my life and only attend them for the proverbial weddings and funerals and rarely then.

I could use the concept of 'LOVE' as my HP and was grateful when I was told in a meeting "We don't care if you call it Buddha or Bubba, the important thing to realize is IT ISN'T YOU!!!"

once I got that the God stuff was all about getting my ego right sized, the rest of the program never bothered me.

YMMV

:hi:

[Iggo]

10. I tried to use "The Truth" as my HP when I had to.

But even that didn't stand up. You see, The Truth is not a "loving God." The Truth is just the truth.

[NMDemDist2]

11. that's why I just used "LOVE"

powerful, universal and better than I was

:shrug:

your "The Truth" is much like "Reason" as referenced in the BB passage I posted above. :hi:

[Kajsa]

12. Varkam, you are not alone.

Far from it.

I've always had faith in a Higher Power even when I didn't understand him/her one
bit. The program reinforced that for me reminding me that I didn't need to understand
my HP, just know that he/she/it was there.

Doubt- hell, next to guilt, doubt goes EVERYWHERE with me.
In spite of years in the program, it's still part of my alcoholic/addict psyche
giving me lots to work on.

Call it steeped in critical thinking mode, question everything,
It's a bitch sometimes.

Faith will happen when you least expect it and yes, even when you are not
looking for it.

Varkam,I read your thread in another group covering this subject and was very touched by how many members there
reached out to you and commended you. You felt you were moving away from them- you're not.

There I saw how wrong I was about many of those members.
They are not the vengeful, mean people I had heard in so many threads.
They are very good people.

So, I learned something too. I wanted to let you know that.

:hug:

[Critters2]

13. Have you looked at material in other 12-step lit?

A guy once brought the AA bb to an EA meeting I was at, and read some of the step 2 & 3 stuff from it, and I was stunned at how theistic it was. I finally said I found it inappropriate to be so clear as to who the HP should be.

In EA, HP can be anything that works. EA Helpful Concept No. 8 says, "The steps suggest a belief in a Power greater than ourselves. This can be human love, a force for good, the group, nature, the universe, God, or any entity a member chooses as a personal Higher Power.". I can easily see how the group or the program could work as one's HP...or nature...or the universe...anything or anyone who can handle things better than I can.

I had the feeling that AA is more clearly theistic than EA, though I don't really have enough experience with AA to know for sure. At any rate, you might want to look at EA literature, or other 12 step lit for further ideas. My EA meeting runs the gamut, from myself (a clergy person) and a nun, to at least two atheists. And others whose religious leanings I have no idea about. We all seem able to respect one another and support one another in our recovery.

Just find a power greater than yourself, and get to meetings for support...and find a good sponsor. And keep working the steps, using whatever HP works for you! :hug:

Critters
powerless over my emotions