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bliss_eternal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-25-07 04:05 AM
Original message
Anyone care to enlighten me....?
Edited on Tue Sep-25-07 04:08 AM by bliss_eternal
...as to WHY people have such a negative response regarding Andrea Dworkin?

I'm embarassed to admit it, but the thread where her quote is used confused me. :blush:
I had no idea whyshe garners such strong responses.

Please forgive my ignorance, but I'm sincerely interested and would like to learn more about this.
I've heard of her in passing--and of course her name comes up frequently when people want to speak ill of feminism. But I don't understand why. What is it about Andrea Dworkin that makes people respond as they do?

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gaspee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-25-07 05:52 AM
Response to Original message
1. My theory is composed of two parts
Edited on Tue Sep-25-07 06:07 AM by gaspee
One, she hit a great many nerves. Came too close to truth for comfort for many, both men and women. The knee-jerk shrieking that she hates men is a good indication to how close to truth she is. At least the truth of the lives of many, many, many women.

My second theory is that to discredit her uncomfortable shedding of light on the dark corners of men's souls when it comes to women, she is continually misquoted -- the most famous is that she said all het penetration is rape. What she actually said, as I read it, is that because of women's place in society, the pressure women are under, consent a lot of the times isn't actually consent but acquiescence.

Men shriek with outrage over that simple idea. An idea that holds a lot of truth. How acceptable is it to whine and cajole and pressure a woman into sex? Perfectly acceptable to most men. How acceptable is it to have sex with a woman too intoxicated to consent - meaning she never said no, so it isn't rape in their minds.

How about women who have sex because they think they'll lose that all important, as society has told her since she was a little girl, man.

I read Dworkin as a radical who pushed the envelope to expand people's thoughts. Men read her as someone trying to take away their inalienable right to fuck women and to fuck women over.

Not have sex together *with* women. Fuck women. Also, men, the little whiny babies that they are, know deep down in their souls that women don't actually *need* them anymore and that scares the shit out of them. What most women I know want is men who want to share their lives. They want men who treat them as human beings and not punching bags, blow-up dolls, housekeepers or an annoying thing they have to put up with so they can make their little juniors.

Women have choices now. They don't have to settle for mouth breathing Neanderthals who are going to treat them like shit. Men whine and bitch and moan that women expect too much of them. My answer to that is give me a fucking break!

And while women don't need men to survive anymore, straight women that I know sure do *want* a good man in their lives -- and not the so-called "nice guys" out there.

Me, I don't want that. I used to and I've had successful long term relationships with men in the past, but I don't want children and I'm much more emotionally (if not physically) attracted to women. I make my own money and my own decisions. I'm one of those infuriating women who neither needs nor wants a man to call my very own and women like me either scare the shit out of them or piss them off.

And I think Dworkin scared them because they think that women like me are more common than we are. Most women still buy into the patriarchal bullshit that they are nothing without a man to call their very own. I'm not blaming women, they've been indoctrinated into thinking that way.

And if you really, really, really want children, partner up with another woman, have children (any way you want to - it's rather easy for a woman who wants kids to make them - sperm is plentiful (VBG)) and support each other. Have sex with men if you want to, but rely on your "partner" for emotional support and help raise each other's children.

I know of two sets of partners who couldn't find acceptable men to partner with so partnered with each other - and all four women are straight. Their children are flourishing, they have happy home lives and they have emotional support - not just financial support.

Like I said, I think deep down, men *know* women don't *need* them, even if they do want them. Dworkin and other radicals like her scare the shit out of them because they expect more from them and if women don't get more from men, they don't need them and won't accept them. I think that's why the empowerment of women and people who hope to accomplish that empowerment scare the living daylights out of men.

That's my take on it.

But the poor menz shouldn't worry their little heads (and I mean that literally) there are plenty of women indoctrinated into their way of thinking that they can ignore those of us who threaten them -- until they can't, which won't be in my lifetime.

All that said, at 37 years old, I have a happy life, with enough money to live comfortably but not lavishly, good friends and plenty of leisure time to do the things I enjoy. I want the same for other women, that's all I want. And at my age, I would love to live a separatist lifestyle, at least for a time. I think the crap women have to put up with from men far outweighs, at this time, in this society, the benefits.

I hate qualifying things here, but I'm going to. No, not all men are evil and a waste of human DNA. I never said that. And neither did Dworkin - but people read her that way, and I'm sure some MRA's will read me that way. What women want is men who add to their lives, not subtract from. And it's really very simple, just don't be a selfish fuckwad who thinks women were put on earth to do man's bidding. So that gets takes care of the big three religions fundamentalists -which is why they hate feminism so much.

Men might not want to hear that women expect them to change, but the thing is men who accept women as partners, as full humans are few and far between. Women shouldn't settle for anything less. Neither should men, but I'm not addressing that issue right now, I'm addressing why people hate Dworkin.

Too many women don't have the freedom to pursue what they find joyful and meaningful in life. Dworkin's goal, to me, was to make people think - sometimes by going a little over the top, IMO, in order to free women (as a group) from the oppression of men (as a group.)

People in power don't want to give up power. So they discredit Dworkin any way they can.

Man hater
Ugly
Fat
Crazy

And every single variation thereof. It's so transparent and yet it works. Look at El Pretzle-nitwit and his cabal - how they turned the few sane among us (the ones who saw the truth all along) into the crazies, the ones who were a danger to society. How they get memes going that are almost impossible to counter.

I think this might be the longest thing I've ever written at DU.

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Katherine Brengle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-25-07 08:59 AM
Response to Reply #1
2. Your post deserves it's own thread --
I think you have it exactly right.
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raccoon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-25-07 09:25 AM
Response to Reply #1
3. Great post, especially,
“How acceptable is it to whine and cajole and pressure a woman into sex? Perfectly acceptable to most men.”

That’s a big 10-4.

“I think the crap women have to put up with from men far outweighs, at this time, in this society, the benefits.”

Yes!

“men who accept women as partners, as full humans are few and far between.”

I totally agree.


“What women want is men who add to their lives, not subtract from. And it's really very simple, just don't be a selfish fuckwad who thinks women were put on earth to do man's bidding.”

This is why I’m happily single now, and probably will be for life. IME, men rarely add much to my life. Most of the time they just want to be placated and waited on.


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ThomCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-25-07 01:34 PM
Response to Reply #1
4. That covers it very, very well.
She explores the power dynamic and the coercion built into relationships, and that scares the people who have a vested interest in maintaining those coercive relationships.

She points out repeatedly that the supposed "happily ever after" relationship that every straight person is supposed to want is really a nightmare, constructed with layers of stereotypes, double standards and abuse. Oh Dear God, nothing will offend people more than shedding light on their fantasies and illusions.

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Ellen Forradalom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-25-07 03:50 PM
Response to Reply #4
6. wow, love that 2nd paragraph
You all are making me want to run right out and pick up the collected works of Dworkin.
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ismnotwasm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-25-07 03:24 PM
Response to Reply #1
5. You should write more often then
That was great
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BlueIris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-25-07 09:16 PM
Response to Reply #1
7. Excellent post!
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bliss_eternal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-25-07 10:01 PM
Response to Reply #1
8. wow, gaspee...
:thumbsup: ...this is far more than I imagined I would see in response to my query.
Amazing post--I really appreciate this!
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-03-07 12:49 PM
Response to Reply #1
9. Great gaspee....!!! Wonderful response ---
Edited on Wed Oct-03-07 12:52 PM by defendandprotect
Andrea Dworkin also worked closely with Cynthia McKinnon? .....
and they began to make some legal inroads on pornography vs females --
pornography as an attack on the ideal of equality for females.
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