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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-06-07 11:30 AM
Original message
Are men caring for children sexier -- ?
Edited on Sat Oct-06-07 11:30 AM by defendandprotect
Fatherhood 2.0. By LEV GROSSMAN
Sat Oct 6, 1:55 AM ET

Does being more of a father make you less of a man? To a group of committed dads assembled one night in a New Jersey diner, the answer is obvious. Sort of. Paul Haley, 38, a father of two, says women look at him when he walks down the street with his kids. "I think it's admiration," he says. Adam Wolff, also 38--with two kids and one on the way--ponders what it means to be a man. "Is my man-ness about being the breadwinner or being a good father to my kids or something else?" Michael Gerber, 36, father of a 7-month-old, asks, "Do you mean, Do we feel whipped?"

"I'm probably a little whipped," shrugs Lee Roberts, 45. He's a part-time copy editor, married to a full-time journalist, who has stayed home for nine years to raise their two children. "There are definitely some guys who look at me and think, 'What's up with him?' Do I care? Well, I guess I do a little because I just mentioned it," he says. Haley speaks up to reassure him: "Kids remember, man. All that matters is that you're there. Being there is being a man."


But what does it mean, exactly, to be a man these days? Once upon a Darwinian time, a man was the one spearing the woolly mammoth. And it wasn't so long ago that a man was that strong and silent fellow over there at the bar with the dry martini or a cold can of beer--a hardworking guy in a gray flannel suit or blue-collar work shirt. He sired children, yes, but he drew the line at diapering them. He didn't know what to expect when his wife was expecting, he didn't review bottle warmers on his daddy blog, and he most certainly didn't participate in little-girl tea parties. Today's dads plead guilty to all of the above--so what does that make them?


As we fuss and fight over the trials and dilemmas of American mothers, a quiet revolution is occurring in fatherhood. "Men today are far more involved with their families than they have been at virtually any other time in the last century," says Michael Kimmel, author of Manhood in America: A Cultural History. In the late 1970s, sociologists at the University of Michigan found that the average dad spent about a third as much time with his kids as the average mom did. By 2000, that was up to three-fourths. The number of stay-at-home fathers has tripled in the past 10 years. The Census counts less than 200,000, but those studying the phenomenon say it's probably 10 times that number. Fathers' style of parenting has changed too. Men hug their kids more, help with homework more, tell kids they love them more. Or, as sociologist Scott Coltrane of the University of California, Riverside, says, "Fathers are beginning to look more like mothers."

http://news.yahoo.com/s/time/20071006/us_time/fatherhood20
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-06-07 11:35 AM
Response to Original message
1. Don't want to change the discussion before it even begins . . ..
but just want to say how relieved I am to see men who seem to be really dedicated to caring for children and -- it seems to go along with it ....being more caring/loving partners.

These seem to be men in their early to mid-thirties who are most noticeable -- ?

Anyway, my compliments to all those bringing about this new "masculinity."

And I'm wondering and hoping that women and feminism will soon bring about changes to capitalism and corporations.



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Katherine Brengle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-06-07 12:39 PM
Response to Original message
2. Not sure why this is posted in here, but...
"Fathers are beginning to look more like mothers."

I think that should read, "Fathers are beginning to look more like parents."

And I don't see this as often as the article seems to think - just this morning I took my daughter to her dance class and sat there knitting and listening while other mothers chatted to one another about how they had to bring their other children with them because their husbands wouldn't watch them, wouldn't do any housework, wouldn't do this, wouldn't do that, etc.

I don't think that much has changed for most of us. Perhaps there are a few more enlightened fathers (my husband is one of them, last week HE took our daughter to class and I never have to take her out with me on errands when he is home, which is a lot more than most mothers get) but the vast majority of couples still function mostly the same way they did 50 years ago.
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mrreowwr_kittty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-06-07 12:54 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. I can't stand when it is said that men are "babysitting" their own children
It's babysitting when it's someone else's child.

Oh, and it's also not "helping out" or "pitching in" when a man does housecleaning in the home where he lives. It's called housecleaning.
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Katherine Brengle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-06-07 02:47 PM
Response to Reply #3
6. Amen!
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bliss_eternal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-06-07 01:00 PM
Response to Reply #2
5. "whipped"
Why is this implied (from the excerpt above) when men do their fair share?
I don't like seeing that.
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Katherine Brengle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-06-07 02:47 PM
Response to Reply #5
7. Nor me. It's bullshit.
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Gormy Cuss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-07-07 10:46 PM
Response to Reply #5
24. "Whipped", as if we don't know what that's shorthand for.
The article is dripping with sexist assumptions.

So only men who have been cowered by their womenfolk take care of kids? What a load of crap.
My hard-living blue collar father took care of his children all by his lonesome decades ago -- no one would dare suggest it was an assault on his masculinity or anything else. He just did it because he was a parent too.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-06-07 11:24 PM
Response to Reply #2
9. Because I wanted to hear feminist responses . . ..
Edited on Sat Oct-06-07 11:28 PM by defendandprotect
I remember quite some years back being alarmed when I saw some few dads with the kids ---
didn't look good! Some of them were outright nasty with the kids.

Then, I started to see guys taking care of kids now and then who were doing a good job -- more than a good job -- they were also obviously very concerned with also caring for and about their wives!!!

There's also more of an element of effection and parental physical contact which has increased --
a different dimention to the relationship between father and children.

We have articles like this every now and then -- I wanted to see who agreed as to whether things have changed that much. Personally -- because of my daughter and one or two of her friends I'm seeing this reverse situation -- wife supporting hubby.

Things are never simple . . .
We've had an old saying that "women marry up/men marry down." But that was really untrue because women were usually oppressed -- especially in their paychecks -- and would have been marrying males who, even if they made twice as much as they did, would have only been their equals.

Where are we now in this kind of complexity -
How many females have jobs which would permit them to support a male, a household, and even one child?



PS: I was also asking these questions in my post #1 ---

QUOTE: These seem to be men in their early to mid-thirties who are most noticeable -- ?

Anyway, my compliments to all those bringing about this new "masculinity."

And I'm wondering and hoping that women and feminism will soon bring about changes to capitalism and corporations. UNQUOTE


Is around 30's where we're noticing the real differences -- ?
Are OTHER males noticing this "new masculinity" --- ?? favorably or not?
And, are women going to beable to change capitalism and corporations as effectively as they are changing other parts of the world?






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Katherine Brengle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-07-07 09:08 AM
Response to Reply #9
12. Like I said, I don't see
a whole lot of change. I'm 26 and while the men I am close to who are in my age range seem to be moving in that direction, I've known many more my age who could have been characters in a sitcom about the 50s.

And in men slightly older, I see even less change.

I think there is more of a lean toward telling men that it's okay to be close to their children, but I don't think they're all taking it in yet.

So, it seems there is *some* but not nearly enough to start celebrating imo.

I asked why it was posted here because it rings of "what about teh menz?" but I can understand your reasons.

Women still, on average, make considerably less money than men, so the idea of women running households financially while men stay home is still not viable for most - in the upper income classes sure, but blue collar America and below, not so much. An uneducated man can make good money as a construction worker - an uneducated woman is likely to be relegated to housecleaning or restaurant work, or something similarly non-lucrative.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-07-07 02:24 PM
Response to Reply #12
18. Most common, IMO, is the two worker family, even when children are young ---
this is what I see. I do see more males in our town taking responsibility for kids.
They're holding them more, they're dealing with their problems more.
IMO, interactions with children are improved -- both for mothers and fathers.

What I originally asked was: Are men caring for children sexier -- ??

If we suggest that's true, does it mean that women can only be attracted to one kind of guy at a time?

Does any of this challenge the idea that probably there is 4-5 year period around child care when females would be most attracted to males who are nurturing parents.

Neither do I think the reality of womanhood is cemented in as much parenting as is often being suggested by articles like this. Especially if we move to the one child per couple formula.

In other words, I see an overemphasis on procreation still --

And I think we need more challenge to the idea that every couple must have children . . .

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Katherine Brengle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-07-07 03:28 PM
Response to Reply #18
21. Yes, men who don't act like entitled asshats are more attractive.
But I would really hope that goes without saying.
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MountainLaurel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-08-07 05:17 PM
Response to Reply #21
26. Snork.
:applause:
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raccoon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-08-07 10:07 AM
Response to Reply #2
25. Makes you think, what's the benefit of marriage for women anyway?

"other mothers chatted to one another about how they had to bring their other children with them because their husbands wouldn't watch them, wouldn't do any housework, wouldn't do this, wouldn't do that, etc."
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Katherine Brengle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-10-07 08:51 AM
Response to Reply #25
28. Economic protection, social status, and don't forget
that the vast majority of heterosexual women are stuck in a position of truly wanting to be in a relationship with a man, it is a need that we have, and therefore might choose (albeit from limited options) to put up with it in order to gain something that we believe has more value.
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mrreowwr_kittty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-06-07 12:58 PM
Response to Original message
4. I'll try to look past the overtly sexist tone of the article, since it's telling us pretty good news
It's hard for me not to make the comparison to how mothers are viewed. Women taking care of children is not "sexy" because it's just what we're expected to do. When a man does it, he gets elevated (or denigrated as the case may be) because it's still relatively unusual. Hopefully, this trend of men taking more care of their children will continue, to the point where it will be as unremarkable to see a man caring for his child as a woman.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-06-07 11:31 PM
Response to Reply #4
10. "Sexist" was my reference; not the article's . . . it's a question I posed . . .
As I've said in other comments on this subject -- it can be complex and take us down many roads --
for instance . . . .

Are women attracted to only one kind of male -- ?
Is monogamy reality -- ?

And, let's note that we have few children now -- these aren't households of four and five children or even three or four as we had in the suburbs in recent times.


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Katherine Brengle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-07-07 09:09 AM
Response to Reply #10
13. Um, "whipped" etc?
I think that was the point, not anyone's use of the word.
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mrreowwr_kittty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-07-07 09:51 AM
Response to Reply #10
15. Firtst sentence: Does being more of a father make you less of a man?
It goes on from there. The entire premise, text, context, subtext, tone, tenor, etc, is sexist. "Aww look at the men doing wimmenz work, how cute!" :eyes:
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-07-07 02:08 PM
Response to Reply #15
17. Agree the article has a sexist slant ---
Apologies because I made an error in my post . . . which should read "sexy" ---
That was my question . . . .

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Ellen Forradalom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-06-07 02:55 PM
Response to Original message
8. These men are struggling with cultural images and expectations
as much as women do. It's part of the process of personal and cultural change. I am glad to see we have common ground.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-06-07 11:33 PM
Response to Reply #8
11. I agree -- and can feminism claim these positive changes to "masculinity" . . . ?
I think so --

And, asking again -- can feminism also change corporations and capitalism ---

Hopefully, quickly before the planet fall apart -- !!!
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Katherine Brengle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-07-07 09:11 AM
Response to Reply #11
14. I don't think feminism can change
the existing structure of society that much.

The system is broken. Trying to rewire it without fixing the other problems won't hold out over the long term.

I think major cultural upheaval will be necessary for things to ever truly fundamentally change.

I also don't think it is the job of feminism to change men. We've been screaming from the rooftops for generations about what is wrong and what needs to happen - men need to pick up the ball and get to work on themselves.

We can't do it for them.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-07-07 02:05 PM
Response to Reply #14
16. But you wouldn't disagree that patriarchy created the existing structure . . . ???
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Katherine Brengle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-07-07 03:28 PM
Response to Reply #16
20. Of course it's the patriarchy.
I don't understand why you would ask that?
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-07-07 10:42 PM
Response to Reply #20
22. Right -- we have a patriarchal culture . . ..
It is not the "job" nor the "responsibility" of women to change men . . .
What I am saying is that culture changes when women are no longer isolated in their homes;
that culture changes when females can be priests; that culture changes when women no longer have 4 children; when women have retirement income, discretionary income; when Moms are feminists -- etal

therefore, feminism automatically changes men.

Quote:
I think major cultural upheaval will be necessary for things to ever truly fundamentally change.

I also don't think it is the job of feminism to change men. We've been screaming from the rooftops for generations about what is wrong and what needs to happen - men need to pick up the ball and get to work on themselves.

We can't do it for them. Unquote

I think men who are awakening to the disaster of Global Warming will be our next "feminists."

It is forcing the rethinking of patriarchy, organized patriarchal religions -- "Manifest Destiny"/"Man's Dominion Over Nature" -- capitalism.

Global Warming is a capitalist crime ---



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mrreowwr_kittty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-07-07 03:15 PM
Response to Reply #14
19. The idea that women should change men just reinforces the existing structure
Patriarchy is predicated on the view that women are responsible for "civilizing" men and must put our needs and desires on the backburner to accomplish that.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-07-07 10:44 PM
Response to Reply #19
23. Personally, I think that patriarchy is simply a war on women --
and I don't think the view that ALL war is actually a war on women is far from the truth -- !!!

Only recently has RAPE been designated an official tool of war --- !!!

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benEzra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-08-07 11:12 PM
Response to Original message
27. Highly involved dad to a special-needs kid, here...
and there's nothing "whipped" about it.

My 8 y.o. son (DiGeorge sequence, 22q.11.2 deletion syndrome, Tetralogy of Fallot with complete pulmonary atresia, thymic aplasia, etc. etc.), who is nonetheless a very happy kid:



I'm also the proud dad of a 6 y.o. daughter. I wouldn't miss my share in their lives for the world.

As to it being sexy or not, I dunno. My wife seems to think so, I guess...
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Lilith Velkor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-10-07 03:08 PM
Response to Original message
29. No, married men with children aren't my cuppa.
I prefer guys who know how to use condoms.
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