I need some advice folks

[lukasahero]

A co-worker of mine has recently confided in me that she is in an abusive marriage and she wants out. I've sort of been there before but her situation is complicated by kids, a home and horses. She can swing the finances after the divorce but she's just sought out legal counseling and it sounds to me like they're trying to dissuade her (it'll cost too much, $2k retainer, $160/hr, he'll fight it, oh no, can't get a restraining order until and unless he actually gets violent (an infringment of HIS rights). Her words "guess next time he throws something at me I shouldn't duck"! )

I just need some advice as to where to tell her to go to get the advocacy she deserves. If anyone has advice, please PM me. She's safe for the time being (he doesn't know what she's planning) but if he finds out, it's going to get dangerous.

[iverglas]

1. nothing specific to offer

so I'll do it here rather than by PM. You're right -- she needs advocacy. Advocacy designed for women in her situation, not the kind of thing that most law firms are used to doing. Paying the retainer and then then everybody sitting patiently and waiting for the wheels of justice to grind isn't what these situations are really about.

If you google your state name with the words women abuse advocacy, I expect you'll find some resources.

Here in Canada, an order for exclusive possession of the family home and a restraining order would not be that difficult to get, if things were well prepared beforehand. (Meaning in a situation where there had not already been "violence"; in that situation it would be virtually automatic.) I wonder whether things aren't as difficult where you are, and your basic law firm just isn't in the loop. A women's advocacy service might have a different perspective and better knowledge of what likely outcomes are.

And she needs the support and resources that kind of service can offer for more than just the legalities. She's going to be putting herself at elevated short-term risk whether she leaves or she forces him out. She needs help planning strategies and marshalling supports. I'm thinking of things like I'd make sure were done here -- like going to the police *first*, putting the fears on record, asking that they check into what firearms he is known to have, if your state has any kind of record-keeping and protective measures that can be taken in that regard. Here, police will act on any such expression of concern, and if it appears well-founded, a firearms licence could be revoked and firearms removed.

Also, here, an ex parte order for possession can be obtained, if the court can be shown that there is reason to fear what would happen if notice were given. I suspect that is harder to do in the US, the security of some persons tending to being a matter of less concern than the liberty of other persons to some extent. It might be worth a try, anyhow, and an advocacy centre will have the experience to be able to give at least some information.

She also needs to know more just generally about what to be prepared for, and a centre devoted to these kinds of services is going to be able to help with that.

Of course the other thing it can do is give referrals to lawyers, if it isn't a centre that has lawyers on staff, as some do, depending on the type of service it is. Most people don't have their own lawyer whom they know and trust well enough to turn to in this situation, and good referrals are really important for these things.

Just generally getting ducks in a row before making the move.

Googling your state and just picking a result at random, I see a centre that provides free legal representation, a 24-hour hotline, counselling and support ... hopefully, there will be something like that in your vicinity, and she'll be able to get the full package of what's needed in her situation.

Good luck to her, and I hope she manages to find what she needs to get safe.

[lukasahero]

2. Thanks for the prompt reply

You have some great suggestions that I will pass along. One problem: she's not in my state. My state's easy. She's in a nearby state that's not as liberal. She lives in a small town about 2.5 hours north of me. She's secluded. And you touched on the one point that scares the crap out of me: firearms. He's a hunter and he has them. Being the state it is, she's going to have to pry them out of his cold dead hands if you know what I mean.

She's started getting her ducks in a row after our talks but I'm afraid she's discouraged by what she's been told. Part of what I'm hoping someone can talk to me about is how to keep her moving in the right direction and not get discouraged by what the lawyers have told her.

Do you really think she should go to the police even if he hasn't actually struck her yet? He's threatened to kill her and her pets - is that enough? (My god, I can't believe I used all those words in the same sentence - what kind of world do we live in?) It's a very small town and she is somewhat concerned about the gossip. (More in that what she's planning could get back to him before she's ready...)

Thanks again.

[iverglas]

3. go to the police

Absolutely, one hundred percent, go to the police.

Remember when you read my posts, I'm not where you are and I'm speaking from my own experience and context, so things may look different on your side of the border. But I can't believe they'd be that different.

A death threat is probably, the vast majority of the time, an intimidation tactic. But there is never, ever any way of knowing. The threat against pets is one of the most common tactics of an abuser. I'm sure you know this. The woman fears leaving to protect herself, because she would have to leave the pets, so she stays, and control is maintained.

I certainly hope that death threats fall under that "clear and present danger" thing and are a criminal offence where you're at. They sure as hell are where I'm at.

But -- infinitely better to go to a competent resource *before* going to the police. To prepare herself -- to know what to expect, to be ready to deal with a negative response, to be organized to provide them what they need. And to get to the right place -- a domestic violence unit within the police service, say. A women's shelter / counselling/legal service will have liaison with the right police services.

A women's centre will never pressure her to do one thing or another. They will listen to her, inform her, help her make a decision in her own interests, help her organize to carry out the decision. They have *her* interests in mind in everything they do. That's why that's where you should be steering her. It's the first and easiest step -- you can say just go and *find out* what you can do and what you can expect; you don't have to do anything, you don't have to go any farther, just find out.

She may decide when she's talking to them, when she actually voices everything that's happening, that she just doesn't feel safe enough to stay, restraining order or possession of the house notwithstanding. She should certainly be able to be escorted by police to the home to get what she needs if she decides not to go back, or to leave after thinking about it. Women's services realize the seriousness of the pet problem for women in her situaton -- don't think anyone trivializes that issue. I wouldn't be surprised to know (I've been out of the actual loop for a while) that there are foster care arrangements for pets. Horses ... hmm, not sure on that one. ;)

She's going to have to go out of town to get help, obviously -- not likely to be a good range of services where she is, also the problem if seen in the wrong place. Hopefully she can arrange that. And hopefully she isn't isolated from friends and family where she is.

PM me the town if you like -- I'm pretty good with google and I know what I'm looking for -- but you should be able to find what's there if it's there. If she's in the habit of visiting you, there would be no problem with her going to a centre where you are -- they wouldn't likely have the connections with authorities and local lawyers and such where she is, but they'd certainly know where to refer her. Or you could just contact a centre local to you, and tell them what you need, and I have no doubt they'll have the info.

The guns ... these are the stories that don't make it into the statistics. "Only" ten thousand firearm homicides a year in the US ... how many women living in terror with men who have guns?

http://www.guncontrol.ca/English/Home/Works/Reducing.pdf
REDUCING DOMESTIC HOMICIDE
While much focus has been made on the problems of illegal guns, most women killed with guns are killed with legally owned guns, particularly rifles and shotguns <in Canada>. On average, one in three women killed by their husbands are shot <more like 2 in 3 in the US>; most (88%) of them with legally owned rifles and shotguns. In an affidavit filed by the Alberta Council of Women's Shelters, one shelter worker estimated that at least 40% of her clients had been threatened with a gun.

Your friend doesn't sound safe, and if she isn't safe now, she isn't going to be safe as soon as she leaves him, and she may be less safe -- statistically. That's the focus and the aim: to get her safe. If it means leaving, and leaving everything, that's what it takes.

I'd hate myself the rest of my life if I left a situation like that and my pets died, but it would also be a reminder that if I'd stayed, I could have died -- and my pets too. From a thread yesterday in the gun dungeon:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=118&topic_id=162967&mesg_id=162967
IL: Timothy M. DeFrates, 33, shot and killed his live-in girlfriend, Arlena J. Beard, 44, before fatally shooting two dogs in the home and himself.

So risking herself to protect her pets could fail all round.

I'm not meaning to dramatize. Odds are that any particular woman is not going to be a homicide victim. But when the stakes are that high, the gamble seldom seems worth it. I really hope she gets to somewhere she can feel safe for making her decisions, and gets to safety as a result.

[Cherchez la Femme]

26. Horses

will be VERY difficult to deal with. Sadly, even if she could find anyone who would take them in or board them for her, there are MANY unscrupulous people out there.
Some may not be unscrupulous, but, the horses being so big and relatively expensive to take care of, some people may have the best initial intentions but be unable to follow through on them. They can get sucked into a buyer/dealer who will promise the world and who well may just take them to sell for slaughter by the pound, if they can't find a pleasure-horse buyer quick enough. And even selling by-the-pound, you would not believe the emaciated condition so many arrive at the auction house.
Worse, if they're pregnant, the heavier they'll be; even if starved...

Believe me, I live near "the biggest killbuyer auction east of the Mississippi" in New Holland, PA. I've seen them, it's heartbreaking.
My own goal is to find a small farm and rescue from there myself. Unfortunately, barring some miracle, that won't be soon. At all. :(

There are many good people who rescue from that place, but not near enough to save even half. Some of the rescue orgs are:
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla%3Aen-US%3Aofficial&hs=FE1&q=New+Holland+horse+rescue&btnG=Search
and the stories of the many once-loved horses going through there to slaughter along with the ones whose only human care towards them was how much money they could earn, the relative few rescued by well meaning people, and even the 'Desparately Seeking Flicka' ads of, for example, people who have had to put their horses in others fields and the horses 'disappearing' or owners who are victims of scams involving people offering 'good homes' for unwanted or unable to be kept horses, then selling them to slaughter are extremely alarming and heart-breaking.
Run on sentence there, sorry, but I'm not concentrating on grammar right now.

Website alerting & in some cases offering rewards for stolen/missing/formerly owned/lost track of horses:
http://www.netposse.com/

If anyone cares to make a tax-deductible donation or sponsor a rescued horse, there are many rescues who deserve and need funds and sponsors. Browse, for one, Another Chance 4 Horses,
http://www.ac4h.com/
Another: Last Chance Ranch Equine Rescue http://www.lastchanceranch.org/
but you'll find many more in the Google link above.
If you can't make a large contribution, Message Products
http://www.messageproducts.com/
offers checks where they donate to many deserving organizations; my personal favorite is LCA: Last Chance for Animals;
who help adopt out especially senior, homeless pets of all kinds. They have a great message across the top of their checks: "This is NOT a research tool!"


As for the woman's quandary, I'm no expert but actually I think her idea of 'not ducking' is a good one. He'll finally be pulled in for provable abuse, it won't be a 'he said/she said' feint, where men still are believed more than women; and after he's arrested and she's gotten a protection order against him, have hopefully a policeman or if not, a father or brother warn the husband that he better pray nothing happens to her at all, not one hair on her head, or he'll end up either in prison, all the way to Death Row -- and tell him with his track record even alibis won't save him!

Not nice, no (not that he is!) but one thing I do know: men who abuse women are COWARDS when it comes to their own precious skins!
That, and the more physical evidence she has, the better she'll be in terms of future protection and, of course, contemporary documentation.

Just that, hopefully what he chucks at her leaves a good mark but is otherwise non-damaging nor permanent. That is a big risk, I admit; so my advice may not be so great... but it would set her up best in the courts, since it appears currently she has next-to-nothing in evidence of abuse.



Edit: My personal position is that every animal in my care, no matter how big or small, IS my family and I'd do everything in my power to keep them as safe as I would a child -- they are as defenseless and have absolutely no control of their fate, just as a child;
NOT (figuratively) "screw them".

To quote Le Petit Prince "You are forever responsible for what you have tamed".

[Deep13]

12. "He's threatened to kill her "

Holy Jesus Christ! Go to the police and have him indicted. Threatening murder is a felony and yes it definitely counts as "violence."

Honestly, $2K and $160/hr. is not unreasonable. My sister ended up paying $5000 in legal fees for a two-year marriage. (Well, she paid $2K after the divorce and I paid $3K to get it started.)

[iverglas]

4. hope you got some more local response by PM

I do hope that someone with knowledge or experience closer to the ground can help. For me it was just that your friend's situation is so not-unique, and in fact so common, sad and horrible as that is to think about, that I thought it was a good idea to talk about it in generalities a bit too.

Just looking again at your original post -- "guess next time he throws something at me I shouldn't duck" -- throwing something at someone is an assault, whether it hits its mark or not. I would really hate to think that local police and courts would not take this conduct, both the acts and the threats, seriously.

[lukasahero]

5. Thanks for your help and concern iverglas

It's really appreciated. Despite knowing all these signs, warning and clanging bells, some of the stuff she said really shook me up. We've been talking and she's going to take the kids for a vacation this weekend and I'm going to do some research.

I don't want to screw this up and appreciate you taking the time to respond to my inquiry. I know all this stuff mentally but boy it feels weightier a responsibility now. It's just nice to have others not as emotionally invested making sure we cover all the bases.

Thanks again. I'll post again after the long weekend when I have updates.

[iverglas]

6. if you're around, I thought this might interest you

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/new-brunswick/story/2007/10/02/nb-rural-abuse.html

Guns influence abused women's decisions to seek help: study
Last Updated: Tuesday, October 2, 2007 | 4:23 PM AT
A new study of abused women in New Brunswick and Prince Edward Island shows that having firearms in the home made them more fearful and less likely to seek help.

The study was conducted for the Canadian Firearms Centre by Fredericton researchers Jennie Hornosty and Deborah Doherty. It surveyed 283 women living in transition and 108 crisis workers, police officers and child protection workers to gain a better understanding of family violence in a rural context.

The results show:

* 25 per cent of the abused women knew firearms were in the house.
* 40 per cent of those firearms were not licensed.
* 11 per cent of the firearms were kept loaded.
* 66 per cent of the women said firearms made them fear for their safety.
* 70 per cent said the firearms' presence affected their decision to seek help.
* 64 per cent thought firearms would be used to harm a pet or farm animal.

The study sheds light on an area rarely researched in Canada, said Hornosty, and demonstrated the ways firearms can be used as instruments of control, intimidation and abuse in family situation.

Women in rural areas can become trapped in abusive relationships out of fear about what their partner might do to them, to himself or to pets and farm animals if a rifle or shotgun is handy and loaded, she said. "The fact of rural areas is that they're very remote or many of them are very remote, very isolated," said Hornosty.

Many of the victims take animal abuse very seriously and often refuse to get help for themselves out of fear their pets or livestock will be harmed, said Doherty. The connection between gun violence in rural areas and animal ownership became apparent as the researchers repeatedly heard from many women who felt they could report if her partner was abusing her but if an animal was harmed she felt there was nothing she could do to protect it, said Hornosty.

Doherty said more safe havens for animals need to be established as a mechanism to prompt women to leave their own homes and abusive situations. "Then women would have the time and the freedom to know that this beloved pet is well cared for and that they can think about their options," said Doherty, "whether they're going to leave the abuse and what they're going to do with their life."

Tolstoy may have been right in some ways when he said “Happy families are all alike. Unhappy families are each unhappy in their own way.”

But when the unhappy family has an abusive man in it, they tend to look awfully similar.

[lukasahero]

9. Thanks for this - I'm going to forward it on

We're supposed to have lunch together today or Monday so I'll bring it up.

I have to admit, the animals are part of what's making it so difficult for her. That said, the lawyers told her the police couldn't do anything unless/until he actually physically hurt her, it's pretty obvious what they'll say if he hasn't actually killed an animal yet.

I think maybe I've found a new mission - combining my two real passions: women's issues and animal welfare. The article is right: we need to find a way to help women who risk their own safety to protect ALL those they love. I'm not sure what we can do but just as Katrina shined a light on the inadequacy of evacuation plans that didn't take animals into account, this situation has brought home to me the need for some sort of resource to give women the ability to protect themselves without risking everything/one else they hold dear.

Thank you.

[iverglas]

10. I finally found this

http://www.acswcccf.nb.ca/english/documents/EXECUTIVE%20SUMMARY%20Short.doc

It's the executive summary of the report itself, which I haven't found, but I imagine the summary is the useful information and analysis.

Good luck to her, and glad to hear that she has been making sensible preparations.

[ThomCat]

7. I know I'm being nosy

but do you an kind of update you can ethically share with us? I would love to hear that she is away from that guy and moving ahead with the divorce.

Stories like this one stay with me and bother me. The whole idea of anyone being stuck in an abusive relationship puts me on edge.

[lukasahero]

8. Thanks ThomCat

I've been reluctant to post more because I don't have any great news at this point. (Don't worry, the news isn't horrible either, it's just not great.)

Given the particular circumstances with my friend, this isn't going to be quick and I know everyone wants to say she should just get out asap but that's not as easy as it sounds. She has been meeting with lawyers, she has gathered support resources locally and has spoken to the police just to get things on record. But she lives in a very small town and she has to be careful how she proceeds. She has made the decision so I guess that's a big step in the right direction - now she just has to make it happen - as safely as possible for everyone involved - including the horses. (I'm sorry to those who think screw the horses, that's just not a reality for her.)

So we continue to chat, she continues to slowly make plans and keep her head down and I suppose we all continue to cross our fingers. She's a tough chick and, now that she's been able to say it's name, she's not going to back down from this fight.

Thanks for keeping her in your thoughts. (And know you are always in mine, too. :hug: )

[Deep13]

13. Screw the horses.

If she can't then it is for the same reason she puts up with abuse. It's because she has no self esteem and doesn't believe she deserves better or is better than a horse.

[lukasahero]

14. Sorry but you don't know her

I'll leave it at that assuming you are trying to be helpful.

[spooky3]

23. this doesn't need to be either-or

There should be a way to work out arrangements that provide for the horses - if nothing else, to sell them to another responsible owner. If people can make arrangements for children, certainly animals would be less complicated (expensive surely, but not as complicated).

Animals that depend on us are our responsibility, just as children are. I'm sure your friend doesn't want to abuse or neglect them any more than she wants to continue to suffer abuse.

I really hope your friend can get the situation worked out very soon.

[Deep13]

11. If he's throwing stuff, one would think it qualifies as "violent."

I don't know what the divorce laws are in MA, but one would than that his money and property are also her money and property. When I practiced divorce law in Ohio I told female clients to round up H's stuff and use it as collateral for a personal loan. Use the money for legal fees. As one of the marital debts, the loan will be assigned by the court.

If her safety depends on him not finding out, then she is presently not safe. Rights be damned, she needs to protect her physical safety and get the fuck out.

[lukasahero]

15. As explained in an earlier post

I am in Mass, she is not.

I appreciate you are trying to help but women are at most risk when leaving an abusive relationship - rushing right now could lead to dangerous mistakes.

Additionally, you are making poor assumptions. First, she's the bread winner. Perhaps you could use this opportunity to consider why you assumed he owns the property and has the money? A lot of people think only poor, uneducated women are abused. They're wrong.

This is not the CBS movie of the week and the drama is not going to help. This is real and she needs to protect herself - that doesn't always equal getting out as fast as she can. There are no shelters in her town. She has kids, pets. Her family does not live here. Where would you have her go?

[Venceremos]

16. Been there

Your friend's husband sounds like a carbon copy of my former husband. I finally confided in a co-worker, too, but it took me another year after that to get everything ready to leave him safely. I wish I could offer some advice that would give immediate relief, but it sounds like you're on the right track in doing this carefully.

As for the lawyers, the first few I visited said the same as what your friend is being told -- in translation it meant "give me a ton of money". Although I could pay a lawyer I eventually went to a free legal services place to get advice that wasn't motivated by money. They steered me to a good, honest law firm and that helped enormously.

When she does finally leave tell her to be extra careful. Shortly after I left my former he paid some creep to follow me to find out where I lived (he knew I'd be on the lookout for him).

[lukasahero]

17. Thank you!

Just hearing you say it took you a while but you made it out safely has given me a great boost of confidence. I'm sorry you went through it.

I've sort of already suggested she see another lawyer but the town's so small, I'm not sure has many options. The good news is that's not stopping her anyway. I'll mention it again and use your anecdote, if you don't mind.

Thanks again. Oh - and welcome to DU! :hi:

[lukasahero]

18. Update: movement

Just wanted to give folks interested a quick update on my friend. The husband is being served this week - will be removed from the house. Filing for divorce on spousal and child abuse and bringing in animal protection resources.

Cross your fingers kids, 'cause she's entering the real danger zone now.

[supernova]

19. Thanks for the update, lukasahero

on your friend.

So he is being asked to leave and she is staying in the home? I'm glad she seems to have worked out what to do with her animals.

Good thoughts and prayers for your friend for the coming months. It'll be a rough ride.

13 years ago I left an emotionally abusive marriage, no firearms though, thank goodness.

[lukasahero]

20. Thanks for the good thoughts

Yeah, the lawyer thinks they have enough evidence to have him removed from the home and he'll be served a restraining order. She will be taking the kids out of the house for a couple of days (just to be safe since we all know how effective restraining orders are) but they've already talked to the local and state police as well as other advocacy groups (i.e. - the horses) and the lawyer seems to be pretty confident they are safe to make the move now. Like I said, cross your fingers.

:hug: to you for getting yourself out. It's never as easy as others make it sound.

[ThomCat]

21. Wow. This is definitely good news.

I hope it goes smoothly, and he doesn't get any chances to retaliate.

I'll keep her in my thoughts.

[BlueIris]

22. Hope things are okay and your friend is getting the help she needs. nt

[spooky3]

24. glad to hear this - she is lucky to have your friendship

I will hope for the best for the family and pets.

[iverglas]

25. very glad to hear

But as you say, it's a danger zone.

One thing that I'm sure your friend's lawyer knows, but just in case.

Once the restraining order is in place, the husband is prohibited from acquiring firearms. It's important that the restraining order be recorded in the appropriate place so it gets into the NICS system, so that he cannot (legally) acquire firearms. A background check by a licensed dealer will then report that he is ineligible.

I'm not as familiar with eligibility to *possess* firearms, and that would likely be a state-level policy.

Some background and problems.

http://www.neahin.org/programs/schoolsafety/gunsafety/nics.htm
(2005 -- Out of date, but indicates the problem)

· Domestic Violence: 20 states lack a database for either domestic violence misdemeanants or temporary restraining orders or both. 42% of all NICS denials based on restraining orders come from one state – Kentucky – which does the best job of automating temporary restraining orders (TROs) from the bench. The Department of Justice (DoJ) estimates that nearly 2 million restraining order records are missing from the database.

http://www.crim.upenn.edu/faculty/papers/sorenson/testimony_sorenson.5.07.pdf
(May 2007)

Women sometimes turn to restraining orders in an attempt to increase their safety, particularly when they are trying to end a relationship. Restraining orders, in which a judge or commissioner orders the person to be restrained to have either no or only peaceful contact with the protected person, are available in all 50 U.S. states. The orders are known by different names (e.g., restraining orders, protection from abuse orders) and the criteria for obtaining and the time period for which they are issued varies.

Federal policy

Recognizing the deadly combination of abuse, firearms, and ending a relationship, Congress passed the 1994 Violent Crime Control and Enforcement Act. The list of persons who are prohibited from purchasing and possessing firearms was expanded to include persons against whom a domestic violence restraining order has been issued. This law was enacted along with the 1994 Violence Against Women Act, which created federal crimes of domestic violence and the honoring of restraining orders across the nation (i.e., Full Faith and Credit).

Then, in 1996, Congress passed what is commonly known as the Lautenberg Amendment, by which persons convicted of a domestic violence misdemeanor are prohibited from purchasing and possessing a firearm. Those convicted of a felonious assault upon an intimate partner (or any other person) already were subject to these restrictions as part of the 1968 Gun Control Act. A primary reason for expanding the prohibitions to include domestic violence misdemeanors was the perceived difficulty in obtaining a felony conviction when the victim was an intimate partner. Responsibility for how the laws were implemented was left to the individual states.

Legislation typically was required. Some states already had or soon thereafter enacted such prohibition provisions and developed a data base against which firearm purchase applications could be checked. Others have yet to pass relevant laws and develop a fully functioning data base. Up to eight years after the enactment of the relevant federal legislation, only 12 states had laws that prohibited domestic violence misdemeanants and only 24 had laws that prohibited persons under a domestic violence restraining order from possessing firearms.

And more useful reading there.

When she has the restraining order, hopefully police will accompany him to the home to retrieve belongings, and make sure that no firearms are removed. She would do well to conceal the firearms in the home by arranging for storage elsewhere.

Unfortunately, in a country awash in them, none of these measures will stop a determined asshole from getting firearms.


Best of luck to her.