greetings from a new member

[strangertides]

hello everybody. I am a professor of psychology living in Vermont and consider myself a feminist ally. I mostly teach at the graduate level, but have recently been teaching a psychology of women course to undergrads. I have come to these forums to respectfully participate and learn.

[libodem]

1. Welcome

:hi:

[laconicsax]

2. Welcome to DU!

:hi:

[BlueIris]

3. Welcome! You may wish to read our group posting guidelines, if you haven't already.

But otherwise, huzzah!

[strangertides]

4. this forum does not seem very active....

is it because it is summer? or the deficit ceiling is stealing all the attention of everyone?

[BlueIris]

5. Uh...the lack of activity in this forum has many causes.

This thread can tell you a little more about why:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=341&topic_id=14824&mesg_id=14824

[strangertides]

6. sheesh

over half say that they do not post here because they don't feel comfortable or safe.... this is very discouraging. what is making people feel unsafe or uncomfortable posting in DU?

[BlueIris]

7. Well, if you want my opinion, many of those who do not feel "safe" in this forum

don't feel safe because they are not posting in accordance with the stated rules of this group. They're not posting feminist or feminist friendly ideas. So, yes, their postings have been met with intense hostility because the rest of us do want to post in accordance with the rules. And the rest of us want the discussion to stay feminist.

Other reasons people don't feel safe here include the highly contentious nature of the debate in the feminist forum. As was mentioned in the thread I linked to, even the feminist who founded this group feels that it is too argumentative.

[lukasahero]

8. I wrote the rules and don't feel comfortable here

I'm not feminist enough for some, too 'anti-sex' for others, yadayadayada whatever whatever whatever...

However, the primary reason I don't post here any more is because there is never any talk about solutions. "The goal of this group is to understand the problems (and how they affect women), identify the myriad causes (and how they can limit a woman's vision and opportunity) and propose solutions (and how we can bring those solutions in a meaningful way out into the greater community). "

I've just never seen this part of the mission statement come to fruition and, as I have no interest in just whining about how horrible everything is, this forum has little value for me any more. Then again, that's pretty much true of DU in general...

[elleng]

9. 'Solutions?' Very ambitious, unfortunately.

:hi:

[BlueIris]

10. Good point. Lately, I have been focused on "whining about how horrible everything is,"

because I spent a couple of years totally ignorant about the reality and extent of several crises affecting women and am still "processing" the nature of these situations. Examples include the rape crisis in Congo, the epidemic of inadequate obstetrical care for women in developing nations, (and this nation) continued disparities in income between men and women globally and various issues affecting women in the U.S. military.

So I just wanted to acknowledge that for some of us, "whining" is not simply mindless complaining about the profound unfairness in this anti-feminist world, is it about understanding and defining the scope of the problems we face--without which, no solutions can emerge. Unfortunately, I still feel like the biggest obstacle is not only lack of awareness about misogyny and oppression, it is a basic lack of accurate information about not just women and what we are going through.

And, yeah...solutions. Right. I don't see much room for solutions, especially when the root cause is pure, unadulterated hatred of the female. Never in my life have I considered the separatist approach to relationship and lifestyle management--until now. I do not see much hope of having an equitable relationship or a life free from abuse and oppression if it involves the anti-feminist men and women I've been interacting with daily forever. Even the "enlightened" ones appear beyond the reach of humanity to me, lately. Solutions. I see no meaningful interest in solutions anywhere.

[lukasahero]

11. And that's why I no longer participate here.

You can't even consider the possibility some people might have ideas to help improve the situation of women so what is there to discuss?

I don't see a world of 'unadulterated hatred of the female'. I see a world with problems that need to be fixed so I'm doing what is within my means to try and fix them. Can I change the world for every woman? No, just like no one can change the world for everyone. But if we get so paralyzed by the scope of a situation, no one gets help and nothing improves.

As I'm writing this out, I have come to realize it's my world view and my belief in the mission statement itself that really makes me unwelcome here. Given that I only chimed in to dispell your theory that the people who don't feel welcome here are the ones who dont't follow the rules and yet I feel I have once again been chastized for belieiving in the very reasons the group was created by those of us who did so.

[strangertides]

12. but...

are you unwelcome, or are you being disagreed with? they are not the same thing, correct?

[femrap]

13. Welcome to DU...

This forum seems to have withered away. First, I don't find the Administrators of this Board to be Feminist by a long shot. Second, many of the Feminists who used to post here were banned (some for their backing of HRC in the primary of '08).

Strangertides, have you discovered the website, Iblamethepatriarchy.com? It's radical feminism.

Since I'm a 2nd Waver, I see nothing but a major BACKLASH against women today. In all honesty, it's a backlash against anything that didn't come from the Dark Ages. Organized religions have helped with this...as have the MSM that portrays women and girls as merely sex objects 24/7.

I was lucky in that I grew up when women nearly put the cosmetic industry out of business. The focus was on the mind and soul...the inner beauty of a person. Today, it's just the opposite. It is very sad for me to watch young women walking around in stilettos, gobs of makeup, silicone breasts, and clothing that shows lots of skin. I am hoping that everything is cyclical and women will finally wake up and realize that they are more than their breasts.

Maybe when these new Austerity Budget Cuts hit women squarely in the face, they will realize oppression they face.

This 3rd wave is all about 'sexee, fun feminism.' The MSM has created this 3rd wave and it has nothing to do with opening the minds and souls of women to attaining their potential. NOTHING.

You are lucky to have young women that you can educate...or at least plant a seed in their minds. I majored in Psychology and Political Science in my undergrad days. I ended up getting a Masters in a different field. I have long thought that I should have continued in Psychology.

I do believe there is a big disagreement between the Generations of women...which I guess is common.

As for solutions to the problems facing women today, say for example the situation in Darfur. What could possibly stop the men from raping the women as they go out to gather firewood? These men are so brutal...they know how to cause fistula. They insert the gun into a woman's vagina and know the exact angle to shoot so she ends up with fistula. Now what is the solution to that?

All I can come up with is arming the women so they have a chance to defend themselves as they gather wood. I am a basically peaceful person, but if someone is going to cause me physical harm, I want to even the playing field.

Anyway, glad you're here. I'll check back more often.

[laconicsax]

14. I have to correct you slightly.

3rd-wave "feminism" isn't about 'sexee, fun feminism.' It's about rebranding patriarchy as feminist--getting people to believe that anything a woman does is automatically feminist, whether it's taking their husband's name or 'staring' in bukkake videos.

[femrap]

15. I guess....it's

fun for the patriarchy then? I have no idea what a bukkake video is...which is probably good, huh?

I get your point...anything a woman CHOOSES to do is feminist. Goddess, remember when Palin declared herself a feminist? :puke:

eta: OK, I googled Bukkake. I shouldn't have. Now I have to go lie down and rest.

[laconicsax]

16. Sorry about that. n/t

[strangertides]

17. third wave

I cannot agree with your assessment of third wave feminism at all. as you are no doubt aware, second wavers have been accused of representing the needs of white middle class women, and they were the primary constituents of the movement. third wave recognizes intersectionality, how there are many kinds of oppression, and the aspects of our identities are an intersection of the various marginalized groups we belong to.

[laconicsax]

18. Third wave feminism addresses the concerns of the Patriarchy.

While the criticism of second-wave feminism as focused on white middle-class women is definitely valid, third-wave "feminism" does not remedy this in any way, shape, or form.

[femrap]

21. I worked with

lots of Women of Color and Lesbians back in the '60's and '70's. The MSM has created this myth that white middle class women were out for themselves. We worked with women like Shirley Chisholm and Barbara Jordan.

Shirley was known for her statement: "Men are men." She ran for Prez in '72 and women of every color supported her.

This MSM myth is used by patriarchy so to divide and conquer women....and gee, it seems to still be alive and well. Believe me, I was there. I knew damn well that women of color faced more obstacles than white women. If a white woman married a white man, she had some sort of protection from society's cruelty...but she had to stay married, of course. Divorced women, not so much protection.

When Shirley said 'Men are men,' I think she also meant 'Women are women.'

I really don't want to engage in this boyz game of Divide and Conquer. I'd rather fight organized religions and their treatment of women....talk about an ingrained system of creating women to think they are just here to clean up and serve.

[seabeyond]

20. so, submitting, living thru hubby, being second class is feminist? i know

everyone had their choice, but is choice necessarily a feminist idea. the belief that patriarchy rule is feminist. interesting.

[laconicsax]

22. You've probably heard it as

"Feminism is about choice, and I choose..."

It's all about portraying feminism as oppressing women.

[seabeyond]

23. i am not sure how that answers my question.

but i think it isnt too tough to say, yes women can chose, but there are boundaries, lines, foundation of what feminism is opposing patriarchy. and though a woman may chose to live under patriarchy, respect it, expect it, does not make her a feminist.

[laconicsax]

24. It's the idea that making a choice is, in and of itself, feminist.

It's total bullshit, but there it is.

It's good old third-wave capitulation--you can be a feminist without having to challenge the patriarchical status-quo. Worried that pointing out blatant sexism will get you branded a feminazi? Well just join in the sexist fun and call yourself a feminist. Have a fiancée who insists that you take his name? Well do the feminist thing and choose to take his name. Afraid that people will think that you're a sex-hating, frigid bitch? Well hop on the third-wave bandwagon and go out of your way to objectify yourself. Extra points if you install a stripper pole for 'exercise.'

[seabeyond]

25. thank you for the clarification. and

i totally agree with what you are saying. thanks.

[strangertides]

26. ?

why are you equating these actions to being a 3rd waver? your observations do not sync with mine at all. it seems to me your disrespect for 3rd wave feminism, and these unfair things you are saying about the movement is feeding the patriarchal divide and conquer model all too well, no?

[laconicsax]

28. They are consistent with the third wave I've seen.

The MSM is selling third-wave "feminism" and who'd have thought, it is pure capitulation to patriarchy. If fighting patriarchy now requires fighting third-wave "feminism" when it promotes patriarchy, so be it.

[strangertides]

30. alright

We are not going to be able to take this conversation much further without some evidence of what you are talking about. You are essentially making all kinds of claims about 3rd wave feminists, many that are outrageous, frankly, without anything to substantiate them. How about some examples of what you are talking about? Can you provide an example of "capitulation to patriarchy" for example?

[seabeyond]

29. how do you interpret third wave? what do you see differently?

thanks

[strangertides]

31. how I interpret third wave

my interpretation of third wave feminism is that it embraces a larger and more inclusive model of oppression and recognizes the intersectionality of other kinds of marginalization. it is interesting that some here feel that third wavers are sell outs to the patriarchy, in other sites people are claiming that third wavers are too radical and are alienating the supporters of kinder, gentler second wave feminist ideals.

[seabeyond]

32. like you wanted examples, i think that is a good idea.

take the term... sex positive feminist, which seems to come from the third wave feminist. how is that not supporting the patriarchy, that has spent its time conditioning us to believe the feminists dont like sex, ergo for another generation of feminists to embrace feminism, they have to declare their love of sex.

to me, that is a classic maneuver of male to control and direct female.

to me, that is our young women absolutely embracing and reinforcing patriarchy.

and it is certainly a divisive declaration of the two groups of feminist.

where did we take a wrong term to have to declare to the world, that yes, we like sex. what world does a man live in where they have to continually state they like sex, in order to make any statement.

[strangertides]

33. well....

the "sex positive feminists" began during the "feminist sex wars" of the late seventies and in the early eighties in response to folks like Dworkin. the third wavers began a decade later.....

[seabeyond]

19. once again fem, i totally agree adn that is my perception of the situtation. nt

[strangertides]

27. backlash

you are so right. it kind of reminds me of how people refered to "liberals" right after 9/11, as if it were a bad thing to be one. of course, the backlash against feminism has spanned decades, vs the maybe year when being a liberal was supposed to be a bad thing.