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femrap Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-27-06 04:53 PM
Original message
Why can't Dean attack Republican men like this?
All of my life I have watched and listened as men ridicule, attack, and humiliate women to a much greater degree than other men. Look at what Dean calls Katherine Harris...and Goddess knows I don't care for her one iota...but why not attack Kenneth Blackwell (Sec'y of State of Ohio who stole the election for * in '04) who is running for Governor in Ohio. Kenneth Blackwell has been quoted as saying that he is against abortion even if the mother's life is in danger! Yes, you read that correctly....he doesn't care if women DIE. Blackwell also insists on counting the votes of the race he is running in.

Blackwell is the reason * is in office right now. Who could be more hated than Blackwell? Yet, not a peep out of Dean or any other Dems for that matter about him. Of course he is male and Afro-American. Dean compares her to Stalin...?? Please, Marie Antoinette would be a better comparison. Why doesn't he compare * to Stalin....now that would be a spot on comparison in my book. Just how people's deaths is * responsible for now? I don't think Katherine Harris is responsible for killing anyone...is she?

http://www.rawstory.com/news/2006/Howard_Dean_compares_Katherine_Harris_to_0727.html


As Shirley Chisolm said: "Men are men." Does anyone else see the change in Dean lately....he's becoming very 'inside the Beltway.' And another thing....that Senator Nelson of Florida votes like a damn republican all the time.
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bliss_eternal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-29-06 05:18 PM
Response to Original message
1. I haven't paid much attention to Dean of late...
I know that I should, but I was very upset by his gay comments. I know that he later recanted, but I kind of checked out at that point, and wasn't interested in anything else he had to say. I get this way sometimes...I am sorry.

Given what you've said here, I don't know that I will recover. I really liked Dean, and I'm not at all sure what's going on with him these days.

I totally agree with you, though. I don't understand why a man like him would say what he has about a woman like Harris. He could (and should)speak to the situation in Ohio and the fact that there is a man endangering the lives of women.

I guess Dean is as Shirley Chisolm said, a man. (sigh)

:)
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BlueIris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-29-06 07:14 PM
Response to Original message
2. Because except for the label "progressive Democrat," Dean IS
Edited on Sat Jul-29-06 07:18 PM by BlueIris
a Republican male. He's also a fat, fucking ignorant misogynist, a craven opportunist, a cheap hack, and the worst possible person "we" could have picked to run the Party at this time. He's there to keep the moronic "Deaniacs" from feeling left out. Which is very sad.
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VelmaD Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-29-06 07:22 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. I still just roll my eyes...
at some of the people I know who wouldn't believe me that Dean is not a progressive. He wasn't a progressive as a governor. Hell, the man himself called himself a moderate. But you couldn't fucking talk to some of those people...it was like running your head into a brick wall. And you sure as shit couldn't get them to consider voting for the actual progressive who was running in 2004. :eyes:

But, I wish you wouldn't pick on him for being fat. I don't like it when people rag on women in politics for their appearance so I figure we shouldn't do it to men either. I agree with you that he's a "fucking ignorant misogynist" though. :)
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femrap Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-29-06 10:32 PM
Response to Reply #3
4. lol....don't say fat!!!
Well....did Dean say anything demeaning about Harris's looks? I don't think so...so I guess we gotta leave the 'fat' comment out.

I only time I let a man have it on the 'looks' issue is when they are commenting on a women's looks, dress, hair, etc. for all to hear. And 9 times out of 10, the guy is usually guilty of a 'fashion don't.' And I have to point to out to him...just can't help myself. And I am amazed that usually the guy is amazed to be called on his 'look.' They think their looks are not for discussion. Period. I am trying to teach empathy....the hard way.

I offer to teach them Grooming Skills....just like the monkeys do for each other! lol.

I've a met a few Deaniacs....they're scarey. I got the impression that most awoke to Politics with Dean...it was like they were virgins to Politics and he was their first....maybe that is why they're so 'in love' with him.

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VelmaD Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-29-06 11:19 PM
Response to Reply #4
5. I like your teaching method
Too funny. I bet the poleaxed look on their cases is placeless.

And you are right on the money about the Dean people being new to the politics and "in love". Were you on DU during the 2004 primaries? Sheesh.
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femrap Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-29-06 11:58 PM
Response to Reply #5
6. No, I wasn't. Glad I missed that.
At that time, I was ABB...anybody but bush. And I don't think I discovered DU until Kerry won the primary.

I liked Edwards at the time....Clark was interesting in a 'southern could beat bush' way. Dean was OK...but he didn't excite me. I didn't think he had much of a chance....Gov. from Vermont (might as well be a Canadian if you're an Reagan Democrat living in the South).

I grew to like Kerry...I researched his past and found him to appear as a Gentleman....maybe he was too much of a Gentleman to fight the likes of a Rovian Campaign.....but here he won after all! And my state was the one who stole it from him...he should have FOUGHT.
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Finder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-30-06 01:59 PM
Response to Reply #3
10. Dean is a progressive...
and successfully rallied millions of young people to take part in politics back in 2003-2004. I do agree he is also a moderate but that does not exclude him from being progressive.

I have no idea why anyone would label him an "ignorant misogynist" whatsoever...
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VelmaD Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-30-06 04:56 PM
Response to Reply #10
11. I thnk we must have VASTLY DIFFERENT...
definitions of moderate and progressive if you believe someone can be a progressive and a moderate at the same time.
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Finder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-30-06 05:29 PM
Response to Reply #11
12. Progressives are moderates...
rather than radicals on either side of the spectrum in US politics. We are neither traditionalists nor revolutionaries but advocate for gradual changes in US policy.

What is your definition?
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VelmaD Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-30-06 05:57 PM
Response to Reply #12
13. I suppose under the original definition
of progressive, from the old Progressive Party days, moderates could be progressives. But the way "moderate" gets defined nowadays I'm not sure one can still be both. Some of the people who call themselves "moderates" nowadays would be considered pretty damn conservative by progressives back in the day. So it isn't just about how one defines progressive, but about how one defines "moderate" as well.

And down here in Texas, the members of the Texas Progressive Populist Caucus are the fire-breathers of the state's Democratic Party. The ones who are trying to drag the party kicking and screaming back to its liberal ideals. Not a lot of "moderates" hang with us. Then again "moderate" Democrats in Texas look a lot like conservative Republicans in some other states...which I admit shades my definition of a "moderate". :)
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Finder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-30-06 06:26 PM
Response to Reply #13
14. I am a New Englander, so that explains that.lol n/t
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VelmaD Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-30-06 06:36 PM
Response to Reply #14
15. One of the neatest things about DU...
is talking to people from all over and learning about how we're different. :)

Of course, one of the other neatest things about DU is talking to people from all over and finding out how we're all the same. :)
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iverglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-02-06 10:41 AM
Response to Reply #12
26. aaaarghh
"Progressives are moderates"???

Sometimes I just can't get over what a different language is spoken in the USofA from what is spoken in the rest of the English-speaking world.

Back when words meant something, even in the US, "liberal" was a bad word, to progressives. It still is, out here on the other side of the borders.

"Progressive" ... well, I was goint to say that it was roughly equivalent to non-aligned left, but it wasn't really. It referred to people and groups working for causes that advanced the interests of disadvantaged groups -- women, workers, people of colour, immigrants, tenants, low-income neighbourhoods and communities -- who didn't necessarily have a complete political analysis of their cause, and didn't necessarily espouse a particular vision of society, but were moving in the right direction alongside other people working for good goals.

Not all feminists (using the word in a very broad sense) are/were progressive, for instance. Libertarian feminists are not progressive, for instance, any more than any other (economic) libertarians are.

"Left" necessarily implied a broad economic analysis/agenda, "progressive" didn't; I guess that would be one way of putting it.

Here's an interesting article -- of course it is not only from the US but from the right, so I don't agree at all with its value judgments, but the history is there. (I googled "black panthers" progressive since that seemed likely to find me the word being used as I am talking about.)

http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=1089

Of all the misnomers of our political vocabulary, "progressive" is the most abusive and the most abused. "Progressive" is the accepted term for the political left today, just as it was 50 years ago, when it was used as a self-description by Communists and fellow-travelers who sought its protective cover even as they supported the most oppressive regimes in human history. In the later years of the Cold War, it was the term of choice for liberals as well, who thought that the Soviet system was "converging" with Reagan's America, just before the Communist fall.

One of the more interesting characteristics of progressives is the way they seem to learn nothing from their experience, confounding the very idea of progress as a process of escaping from the myths of the past and acquiring knowledge. Today, self-styled "progressives" can be found supporting economic redistribution and state-sponsored racial discrimination, or memorializing the death anniversaries of totalitarian legends like Che Guevara, just as though the history of the last 50 years had never taken place. And progressives can still be counted on to lend their support to the discredited domestic legends of '60s "revolutions," most notably the Black Panther vanguard.
An example of 60s usage:

http://www.blackpanther.org/legacynew.htm

The Black Panther Party was a progressive political organization that stood in the vanguard of the most powerful movement for social change in America since the Revolution of 1776 and the Civil War: that dynamic episode generally referred to as The Sixties. It is the sole black organization in the entire history of black struggle against slavery and oppression in the United States that was armed and promoted a revolutionary agenda, and it represents the last great thrust by the mass of black people for equality, justice and freedom.

The Party's ideals and activities were so radical, it was at one time assailed by FBI chief J. Edgar Hoover as "the greatest threat to the internal security of the United States." And, despite the demise of the Party, its history and lessons remain so challenging and controversial that established texts and media would erase all reference to the Party from American history.
http://www.theeagleonline.com/media/storage/paper666/news/2005/02/24/News/Black.Panther.Bobby.Seale.Urges.Social.Progress-876077.shtml?norewrite200608021131&sourcedomain=www.theeagleonline.com

Bobby Seale, co-founder of the Black Panther Party, stressed the importance of making human connections in progressive movements and recalled his experiences with the party in the '60s and '70s last night in the Kay Spiritual Life Center.

"The Black Panther Party was a profoundly progressive organization," Seale said. "We didn't care if you were black, white, blue, red, green, yellow, polka-dot or whatever ... what we were concerned about was where your heart was."

Seale attributed the foundations of the Black Panther Party to progressive student-led action. The founders of the Black Panther Party and those who supported it were all students, Seale said.
http://www.pbs.org/pov/pov2004/apantherinafrica/special_today_seale.html

P.O.V.: What do you think is the lasting impact of the Black Panther Party? What lessons could someone involved in community work today draw from your experience?

Seale: We didn't take any crap — I mean racist crap. We didn't take it. If you we're going to perpetuate some racism, if you we're going to attack us, we were going to defend ourselves. In a five-year period, 750 Black Panther Party members were arrested on more than 2,500 different charges, mostly felonies. It was an effort to try to identify Party members: the police would get their fingerprints and mug shots and then drop the charges. Less than ten percent of all those charges went to trial, and we won 95 percent of all those that went to trial. That's saying something: we had one of the best legal defense teams. We put that together early. It's also important to understand the relevance of coalition politics to all efforts at liberation. Assess the true progressive nature of an organization, regardless of who it is. That's important in coalition politics and grassroots community organizing.

I'm afraid that to hear someone like ... well, pretty much any leading light in the US Democratic Party ... described as "progressive" makes my ears hurt.

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Finder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-02-06 12:38 PM
Response to Reply #26
29. I think the meaning and usage of certain words has been purposely...
framed in a certain way to confuse. The best example I can think of is the word "theory" meaning one thing to those educated and another to the general populace.






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MuseRider Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-30-06 08:54 AM
Response to Original message
7. I gotta say
this is the first place I have ever seen so many people express about the "sainted" Dean exactly what I thought.

Men are accepted any way that they look unless they don't look manly in some way. Example, Dennis Kucinich is short and looks like an elf. While that did not seem to bother a lot of women it just killed the men.
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femrap Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-30-06 12:56 PM
Response to Reply #7
8. Kucinich is a brave man....
Edited on Sun Jul-30-06 12:58 PM by femrap
I admire him for standing up for Peace. He is a self-confident man who is capable of compassion and empathy. Because he doesn't suffer from FME Syndrome (Fragile Male Ego), he can see the silly machismo of others as such a waste of human potential.

Can we clone him?

Edited to add: Did you know that Cheney is only 5'8" and Rummy only 5'6"....these are FMEs with a big Napoleon Complex to boot! EEEEEK!
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MuseRider Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-30-06 01:10 PM
Response to Reply #8
9. Interesting to know
about Cheney and Rummy. It makes a lot of sense because the Emperor must always stand head and shoulders above everyone.

I don't think Kucinich cares much at all about FME Syndrome, to me he is the measure of a man. If he had not so totally explained his change of heart on abortion I would have considered him a bright man but not someone I could ever tolerate. I often disagree with him but he is braver than most of the big strong men making the decisions.
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femrap Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-31-06 09:56 PM
Response to Reply #9
16. Hold on....maybe I have missed something.
I assumed (possibly like an ass) that he was pro-choice. Is he for Compulsory Motherhood....damn the living?

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MuseRider Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-31-06 11:05 PM
Response to Reply #16
17. Kucinich?
He is pro choice. He wasn't always. His friends and women who worked for him spent several years talking to him about it and he decided he could not vote against a womans right to choice no matter how he believed. He wants to limit abortion by education, family planning and birth control.
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femrap Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-31-06 11:46 PM
Response to Reply #17
18. OK....I assumed correctly.
Clinton and Murray are standing tough on the Morning After Pill today. Will * just do a recess appointment of the FDA?

It never occured to me that a women's ability to control her fertility would shake so many to their very core.
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iverglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-02-06 11:26 AM
Response to Reply #17
27. and as one of the hardlinest pro-choicers I know
-- me, that is ;) -- I was impressed all to hell by Kucinich's statement when he made the switch. It looked like he'd sat down with Canada's former Supreme Court Justice Bertha Wilson, who wrote one of the opinions in the judgment striking down our Criminal Code provision on abortion and wrote at great feminist length about women's goals and aspirations and autonomy, and listened until he'd got it straight.

I can't for the life of me find that statement at DU or via google. Damn. "Fundamental to a woman's equality" was part of it, though. None of that "safe, legal and rare" bullshit.

He *does* talk about making abortion "less necessary". I'm not completely averse to that kind of talk, since the need for abortion very often arises solely because other needs -- access to information, access to health care services, access resources and supports for women in abusive relationships, access to economic opportunities -- have not been met. He talks about things like that here:

http://iticwebarchives.ssrc.org/Z%20Mag/www.zmag.org/content/showarticlef80a.html?SectionID=33&ItemID=3837

We also have to, through sex education and birth control..., to try to create a culture which is life-affirming through prenatal care and postnatal care and child care and a living wage, universal health care and all these things which can help life unfold to the fullest.
and also said he supported funding abortion services for low-income women.

He really did sound to me like he had done the work and was walking the walk, as compared to so many others whose mouths are so full of mealies they can't even talk the talk.

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MuseRider Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-02-06 12:22 PM
Response to Reply #27
28. That was exactly my impression.
His story about it impressed the hell out of me too. I never in a million years would have supported someone against choice or anyone who had simply switched to gain support to win an election (as was said about him over and over by the supposed front runner who changed his mind with the polls so often I was dizzy).

I read what he said and was impressed, then I read more about him to solidify the fact that he was sincere. I believe he changed his mind and began voting pro choice 2 years before he was asked to run but if someone has other information I would be happy to see it.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-31-06 11:55 PM
Response to Original message
19. Wow, I was doing a search on Blackwell here at DU.
I ran across this forum. I had not realized it existed. I was interested. But I doubt after reading this thread I would be very welcome.

I was a Deaniac, guess I still am. I am appalled at what has been said about Dean and us in this thread for no real reason..

I never knew the forum existed, so I will just leave and forget it is here.

Have fun, you can talk about me when I'm gone.
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MuseRider Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-01-06 08:46 AM
Response to Reply #19
20. Don't think we will.
Do you need some smelling salts?

This is a nice group full of thinking women (and some men) who do not easily herd into a mindless group. Don't come in here if you expect everyone to lockstep. We agree and disagree but get along. If you can do that you would be welcome here. We span the spectrum, we are all very different but we respect each other's opinions and that does not always mean agreeing with each other.

If you are easily appalled you might not like it here.

For someone who is always searching this and other sites looking for info on other DUers and where they post I find it very hard to believe you did not know about this forum until now. You have missed a lot of great conversation.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-01-06 10:37 AM
Response to Reply #20
22. Blackwell's a DUer now?
I never saw this forum before. Looks like it would be a nice place not to visit anymore.

I think sometimes, I think I did once last year. I am a woman, a grandma, a mother of many.

Well, these statements don't speak to thinking fairly about men or what a lot of people are about, and they are in this thread.

" He's also a fat, fucking ignorant misogynist, a craven opportunist, a cheap hack, and the worst possible person "we" could have picked to run the Party at this time. He's there to keep the moronic "Deaniacs" from feeling left out. Which is very sad."

See..moronic Deaniacs, fat fucking ignorant misogynist, craven opportunist, cheap hack, worst person to run the party,...and then the reference to "moronic Deaniacs."

Fair and true...I don't think so.

More from this thread:
"Hell, the man himself called himself a moderate. But you couldn't fucking talk to some of those people...it was like running your head into a brick wall. And you sure as shit couldn't get them to consider voting for the actual progressive who was running in 2004"

Yeh, well, I guess it is all the stupidity I was born with. Duh.

More:

"I offer to teach them Grooming Skills....just like the monkeys do for each other! lol.

I've a met a few Deaniacs....they're scarey.
I got the impression that most awoke to Politics with Dean...it was like they were virgins to Politics and he was their first....maybe that is why they're so 'in love' with him."

That was from the person who called me a "brat" here recently for trying to understand the middle east and see both sides. Actually politics needs new people.

"this is the first place I have ever seen so many people express about the "sainted" Dean exactly what I thought."

Hey, it is your forum, and I guess what you said....I ain't tough enough...because I don't think tearing each other apart is very good for anyone.


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MuseRider Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-01-06 11:06 AM
Response to Reply #22
23. You know EXACTLY
what I meant about your searches.

You proved yourself far too sensitive for lots of things over the years. Hey, some of us don't like Dean. Get over it.

If you spent some actual time looking through this forum you might feel differently but since there are so many of us here who *swoon* don't care for Dean then the entire forum is not worth your time? That is your choice but don't think we are going to spend any time here talking about you, we have other things to do with our time.

Look, you have every right to post here and you have every right to love who you love but some of us will not agree and will fight for what we believe in just like you do. You really need to understand that. Finder managed to post her support for Dean and had a good conversation in this thread. You could learn to do that, it might be a healthy thing for you.

Whatever you say in return, if you do post a response, is going to be ignored by me. This is not a place to have Deanie threads clogging it up and causing acrimony. It was to my knowledge the first one and I hope beyond your wildest imagination it is the last because there is nothing I care less for than a discussion of People Powered Howard.


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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-01-06 11:32 AM
Response to Reply #23
24. You forgot paranoid. Oh, right, that means I only imagine stuff.
I only imagined I saw this stuff in this thread. I wish to God I had not done that search and seen this last night. Don't worry though. I have a feeling that between the left and the right....our "fat fucking misogynist" chairman will be out....and a Harold Ickes type or Simon Rosenberg type who really DO love war will be in. So rest easy. And then all the little fucking Deaniacs will be scurrying away with their little tails between their legs because their hero is gone. Poor wittle babies.

I only imagined this:

"He's also a fat, fucking ignorant misogynist, a craven opportunist, a cheap hack, and the worst possible person "we" could have picked to run the Party at this time. He's there to keep the moronic "Deaniacs" from feeling left out. Which is very sad."

See..moronic Deaniacs, fat fucking ignorant misogynist, craven opportunist, cheap hack, worst person to run the party,...and then the reference to "moronic Deaniacs."

Fair and true...I don't think so.

More from this thread:
"Hell, the man himself called himself a moderate. But you couldn't fucking talk to some of those people...it was like running your head into a brick wall. And you sure as shit couldn't get them to consider voting for the actual progressive who was running in 2004"

Yeh, well, I guess it is all the stupidity I was born with. Duh.

More:

"I offer to teach them Grooming Skills....just like the monkeys do for each other! lol.

I've a met a few Deaniacs....they're scarey. I got the impression that most awoke to Politics with Dean...it was like they were virgins to Politics and he was their first....maybe that is why they're so 'in love' with him."
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mrreowwr_kittty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-01-06 02:21 PM
Response to Reply #24
25. There's a little thing called context, you know
Those colorful statements were intended to make a point and express a shared perspective. The comment about monkeys grooming each other was obviously meant in a facetious vein. Perhaps you've never been around guys who are quick to criticize the appearance of women while paying no attention to their own but I know plenty of them. Lucky you.
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Finder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-01-06 09:38 AM
Response to Reply #19
21. Hey, I stuck up for him in this thread.lol n/t
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