my husband

[undergroundnomore]

has been talking a lot about living off the grid lately. He says it is the way we should go. I know some of you are living off the grid but I think I still don't understand it well enough. Is here a book, a website, or some place so I can learn more about it?

[cbayer]

1. I live off the grid, but I am on a boat.

All it basically means it this:

Making and storing your own electricity. We use solar panels and a diesel generator, paired with 12 volt batteries.

Obtaining and storing your own water. We carry 150 gallons, which can last a month if used frugally.

Dealing with your own waste. We are able to store waste in a holding tank and deposit it far offshore, which is legal. Some landlubbers use composting toilets.

There are lots of websites and here are a few you might want to look at:

http://www.livingoffgrid.org/

http://www.off-grid.net/

It's a great feeling. You may not be able to get completely off the grid, but every step in that direction is liberating.

:hi:

[undergroundnomore]

2. thanks I will

take a look at that. My husband hopes that when he gets a job we can locate somewhere that would afford us to live off the grid using some sort of water power. That's where he begins losing me. He talks about how can generate a certain amount of power if we live by a small creek. Being an engineer he drones on and on about it in its minutia and absolutely loses me. I see it as us living without computer or electricity. I think I want some information that's less scientific so I can understand.

thanks for your response.

[katkat]

3. no dumping in the ocean

I would not dump waste in the poor ocean, which is already in a bad state. I believe I've read that human waste can actually be composted, humanure or something, they call it. Or (if you have the money) you can put in an environmentally sound septic system.

[cbayer]

4. It's permissible to dump if you are three miles or more off shore.

When you are out that fair, the depths of the water and moving currents disperse your waste very quickly. And it would take us a month to accumulate what a whale puts out in one shot.

While composting systems are good, they don't work on boats because you just can't have piles of dirt on board. Also, they are tremendously expensive. And septic systems require chemicals that have their own environmental hazards and end up in the ocean anyway.

It's all a trade off. My footprint is very, very small and I am very careful about what I put in the ocean. But I do, and will continue, to empty the holding tanks when in a lawful area to do so. The ones to be concerned about are those giant cruise ships who dump, and often dump less than three miles out.

:hi:

[katkat]

5. dumping not good

I can't believe that any dumping of human waste in the ocean is good, no matter how far offshore it is.

If you are dumping from a boat, that is a known environmental problem. It is actually illegal in my state. There are pump out services that remove boat waste and dispose of it responsibly, so the rest of us don't wind up unable to swim because the water is contaminated with your sewage, and sealife doesn't die from the effects of the pollution.

Thinking the middle of the ocean as so vast that you can dump sewage in it with no effect is the kind of erroneous mindset that I thought disappeared a couple of decades ago.

I live near a harbor which has progressively polluted more and more of the surrounding cove as the number of boats it handles has increased. So now where we used to have a clean cove, we look out at floating sewage. The only difference between this and dumping way offshore is that the damage is the same but humans don't see it so often, just the helpless ocean dwellers.

Modern day septic systems don't require chemicals, that's just a scam by the people selling that stuff.

I never expected to see a Democrat advocating polluting the ocean, or being so unaware of the effects of what they're doing.

[cbayer]

6. While I understand your concerns and agree with many, what I do is both legal

and my only alternative. I spend weeks at a time at sea. I have no access to a pumping station. We NEVER dump anywhere near a shore and are generally at least 10 miles off shore when we do. Your state, and all states, prohibit dumping of any kind in inshore waters. Offshore waters are controlled by national and international laws. We are required to carry a plaque showing what can and can not be put into the water, so that any person coming on our boat knows what the laws are.

There are tremendous problems with marinas and harbors that have boats with faulty holding systems or negligent/ignorant boaters. There are even bigger problems with cruise ships that dump their huge tanks not far off shore.

But the few of us that live on our boats (and, BTW, we have some of the smallest footprints in the developed world by far) are careful and thoughtful. There are few people that are as in touch with the ocean environment and sensitive to it as me and my compatriots. There are some companies developing composting toilets for boats. This is a great idea with only two drawbacks: It requires that you carry compost, always a tricky thing on a boat, and they are currently prohibitively expensive. There are also systems that will "sterilize" human waste prior to dumping, but they are not entirely effective and also quite expensive. We are always looking for ways to reduce our footprint.

There is a huge difference between dumping in a harbor and dumping way offshore, and I would be interested if you could find me any evidence that offshore dumping from small boats causes, or has the potential to cause, any harm to life in the oceans.

I regret that you feel that my qualifications as a Democrat come into question over this matter, but I assure you that I am one, and I also assure you that my contribution to environmental pollution is a very small fraction of yours.

Peace.

[lumberjack_jeff]

7. Human waste in the ocean is not good because of pathogens.

Once you get more than a short distance offshore, the risk of those pathogens getting back into people is small.

200 years ago the base of the puget sound food chain was onshore debris and decaying vegetation. 100 years ago it was human waste. Now there's nothing.

Paradoxically, the biomass (krill, herring, salmon, orca, sea lions) in Puget Sound is much less than it was 50 years ago because we've cleaned up our act.

Treating waste by running an electric current through it is an acceptable form of treatment. The electric current creates chlorine which kills bacteria in the waste - over the side it goes.

[Warpy]

8. Human waste supplies nitrogen to algae and seaweeds

and if it's dumped 3 miles or more offshore, there is no danger of human fecal coliform bacteria contaminating beaches in sufficient quantity to be problematic.

It's fertilizer when dumped properly. It's not a bad thing to do. Really.

The waste that should never be dumped into the ocean no matter how far out is the non bio degradable plastic that seems to be everywhere.

[hippywife]

9. What about all the

crap (pun intended) that end up in human waste? Live the garbage they put in processed food and pharmaceuticals? I'm sure those things aren't good for sea life of any kind. Many fish are already turning up with mixed sexual organs.

I don't care how far out, I still think dumping is not kosher, even if it is legal.

[Warpy]

10. Everything is dumped on the planet

because we don't have a Mr. Fusion to send it out onto somebody else's planet. Everything dumped on land winds up washed into the ocean via rivers and streams.

The fish you're talking about are fresh water fish that have been poisoned by pesticides, herbicide, chemical fertilizers, and other agricultural runoff. Ocean fish are full of PCB and PBB, even around Antarctica. Those poisons are not concentrated in human urine and feces but were dumped on land and washed into the oceans.

Human waste is shockingly clean in comparison to what's going through our rivers and streams, even after a few decades of trying to clean some of them up. We simply exported the dumping along with the factories that did it, meaning most of the world's waterways are now full of chemicals and all of those are going into the oceans.

Dumping a sailboat holding tank far offshore is not going to hurt anyone. Dumping it on land will only delay it going into the ocean, not prevent it.

[hippywife]

11. Rationalizations.

There are dumping stations available which I would hope would treat the waste in the disposal process.

[cbayer]

12. Actually, there are not. It you live in a marina, or keep a boat in one most of the time,

you probably have access to a dumping station. But if you travel to remote areas or islands which are essentially uninhabited or spend days/weeks at a time on the water, there are not.

I know that people don't really get this, but I promise you that I have done my homework and feel not one iota of guilt over emptying my holding tank offshore. No more than I would if I hiked into a remote area and needed to bury my waste. I am a thoughtful and careful inhabitant of this planet.

The problem here is that most people just flush their waste down the toilet and assume that someone is taking care of it. Those someones do "treat" it, but then they dump it right back in the water. OTOH, I take responsibility for my own waste. I carry it with me until I am in a location where I feel very sure I will harm no plant or animal life and dispose of it responsibly. That's a lot more than most people do.

This is not the first time that I have had this discussion with people who disagree, and I am sure that it won't be the last. The dolphins and seals still swim along the side of my boat and greet me when I come into a harbor, and I can look them in the eye and know that I share this space with them with a deep respect and reverence. It doesn't really matter if the landlubber's understand or agree.

:hi:

[Warpy]

13. People just don't realize that shit is part of the cycle of life

unlike all the stuff that's pouring out of factories and off fields, directly into rivers and streams.

[cbayer]

14. I realize that, but it is hard to get them to see it.

People do much more damage with their daily commute than I will ever do with my holding tank. And the assumption that somehow the generally leaky, chemical ridden sewerage system that most people rely on is somehow better is just laughable.

I think if people had to follow their own waste from their pristine white ceramic flush-able bowl to it's endpoint, they would be much less critical of how I handle my waste.

Thanks for your input and support on this. Much appreciated.

:hi:

[renate]

15. Wow!

It sounds like you have a wonderful life! Like a PBS nature special. I love thinking about a life of visiting islands and being at sea for weeks at a time... how idyllic. (I'm sure it's also a lot of work.)

[cbayer]

16. If you like the water and don't mind small living spaces, it is perfectly perfect!

There's some work involved, but once you understand your various systems, most of it is routine.

I will tell you what I tell many people - just do it! If you can find a way to work on the internet, it's a perfect match.

:hi: