Thanks to Jerry Springer I shut up an anti-choicer

[rpannier]

I was "discussing" the merits of the "anti-choice" movement with him. I said to him, "So, do you think a woman who has had an abortion should be charged with murder?"

He said, "No."

Quickly remembering a Springer talking point on this issue I said, "If a mother had a three year old that she didn't want and decided to drown him or her, would you want her thrown in jail?"

(Realizing he was trapped by his own words) He replied, "It's not the same thing."

I said, "You said the fetus is a life and that abortion is murder. So, it has to be the same thing."

He replied, "You just don't understand."

I said, "Yes, I do. You have no idea what you're talking about."

[justice1]

1. There is a difference between a zygote and a baby.

[rpannier]

2. Agreed

But it was fun seeing him squirm.

[EC]

3. Does'nt make a difference, since

he's throwing the anti-choices words back at him and he believes it's the same...

[KittyWampus]

17. Yes, there's a difference between a gilled tadpole fetus and a baby!

a fellow DU'er mentioned that- the fact that early in developement a fetus has gills. Made an impression on me though I already support my ability to choose.

[begley]

21. The only difference is in stage of development

Otherwise, they are the same.

[ScreamingMeemie]

23. Welcome to DU. Perhaps, in your mind, but you cannot impose

that which you believe to be true onto others.

[joeunderdog]

32. I'm not sure that's true.

The government does establish its belief of the time of death, and by some less universal standards, the beginning of life. Our laws are NOT based on individual belief systems.

Where life begins is a hard question for alot of reasons. I think that's where things get sticky. The gov establishes its bottom line, then allows people the freedom of their own individual beliefs thereafter.

[immoderate]

33. Viva la difference!

So they are different. But you say they are the same. Which is it? Should a potential mother who terminates a pregnancy be charged with murder? Make up your mind.

Otherwise, welcome to DU:hi:

--IMM

[begley]

35. I said they are the same except for stage of development

Nothing inconsistent there.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

34. Do you believe an embryo suffers, or has a soul

BEFORE developing a nervous system?

[begley]

36. suffers-no. Has a soul-yes

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

40. How did you come to that conclusion? (About the soul)

[begley]

41. I believe a human gets a soul at the moment of

conception, the same time it becomes a living being.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

43. Trees are living beings and they don't have a soul.

Coincidentally (not really) they don't have a nervous system.

Any of your mitochondria is as much a "living being" as a just-fertilized egg cell.

[begley]

44. A mitochondria is not a living being.

My definition of a living being is, that, which with proper nourishment, will develop into an adult being. If the embryo is human, the only difference between it and a five-year old is stage of development.

The soul thing is unprovable, but it's my opinion.

[Name removed]

37. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[SeattleGirl]

4. Nice! I'll have to remember that!

Thanks!

[IChing]

5. So he said abortion wasn't murder and you said it was?

????

"I said to him, "So, do you think a woman who has had an abortion should be charged with murder?"

He said, "No."


Is a three year old a zygote? I'm confused on your OP.

:dilemma: :yoiks:

[rpannier]

6. His arguement is that abortion should be illegal because it's murder

That's the basis of the anti-choice movement.
So...by following his logic, then he should support charging a woman who had an abortion with murder.
He said that he wouldn't charge her with murder. But, he would charge a woman who murdered her 3 year old with murder.
If a fetus is a life as he is arguing then why wouldn't he apply the same punishment if he thinks both cases are murder?

I hope this clarifies it.

[mconvente]

7. ha! what a smackdown!

"You don't understand."

"Yes I do. You have no idea what you're talking about."

Wow, that pretty much sums it up right here. I'll have to remember that talking point too!

[justice1]

10. "Yes I do. You have no idea what you're talking about."

Could I get everyone to say "hello" to Tom Cruise?

[eallen]

8. The real wingnuts don't hesitate to answer that question "yes."

[Frank Cannon]

9. That's exactly what I first thought when I read that

I wouldn't call that a slam-dunk argument by any means. There are a lot of anti-choice fascists who would have NO trouble charging a woman who's had an abortion with murder in the first degree.

[kevinbgoode]

15. True...but watch them hedge when you suggest

that the man who GOT her pregnant is an accessory to murder. . .or ask them that if a woman has a miscarriage, would that be manslaughter?

[KittyWampus]

20. Oh, I didn't think to then implicate the sperm donor as accessory!

[kevinbgoode]

28. Oh yes...and watch their heads explode

when you suggest that they must consider a miscarriage as "involuntary manslaughter."

[NMMNG]

42. But really, should the woman be charged for a miscarriage?

Or should God? :shrug:

[KittyWampus]

19. It does identify the "real wingnuts" but they're the definate minority

[NewJeffCT]

11. What if he said "yes" to your question?

There are plenty of fundies out there that might answer "yes" to that question.

[dsc]

12. One can think abortion is less than murder but still feel it should be

illegal.

[Seabiscuit]

13. True, but that's not the fundie anti-choice position.

[dsc]

24. There isn't just one fundy position on abortion

I realize it makes nice DU copy to pretend that all fundies think the same but they don't. Incidently the Catholic church, which is ademently pro life, isn't funamentalist.

[Seabiscuit]

25. The Catholic position is irrelevant. Name some fundies that don't believe

that abortion is murder, or that favor a woman's right to choose over a fetus's "right to life".

[dsc]

27. There are plenty of fundies

who favor no involvement in government whatsoever (Render unto Ceaser). Those people do not vote, give money to politicians, or lobby on behalf of any law and thus have no position on abortion (that would likely render them pro choice). Most fundies do not outright equate abortion with murder they call it taking potential life. If you don't believe me do a google search. It is largly Catholics who call it outright murder.

[Seabiscuit]

31. Nondenial denial.

I asked you to name some fundies who held those positions. You rambled on about "plenty of fundies". No, I don't believe you. I don't know what I'd search for on google, but since you brought it up why don't you do so and then try this time to answer my question.

The whole message of fundamantalism in this political climate has been anti-abortion, anti-gay, anti-science, and pro-war/pro-Bush.

I was raised Catholic so I'm know you're full of shit about them - the Catholic church does *not* call abortion "outright murder". If that were their position they'd call it a "mortal sin". They don't even label it a "sin". They simply disfavor it and attempt to persuasively offer alternatives to their parishioners.

Even if the Catholic position were as you falsely portray it to be, that would be irrelevant to the issue raised: what is the fundie's position?

The current pope, Ratzinger, is, of course an out-in-left-field extremist about just about everything, and I could care less what his ideas are about abortion - he doesn't represent Catholics worldwide about anything.

So instead of talking out of your ass again, why not do the research yourself and provide some evidence of "some" fundies (identify them by named organization) who favor a women's right to choose and who don't consider abortion "murder". If you can't, just admit it. Don't waste my time with more BS drivel. If you can, I'm willing to bet the back forty that it's some minor insignificant offshoot of fundies somewhere out in the Ozarks or something.

[wryter2000]

14. The one that gets me...

Making a distinction for incest and rape. Are those fetuses any less human?

[Frank Cannon]

16. A lot of fundies don't make that distinction

Check out that law they passed in South Dakota, for instance.

[wryter2000]

26. I know

But I love to clobber the ones who do. :evilgrin:

[ScreamingMeemie]

18. Except I know a lot of people who think the woman SHOULD be charged

with murder. The gungho-out there with the bloody fetus signs- would gladly sign a death warrant for a woman who's had an abortion. :(

[rpgamerd00d]

22. Exactly. A real anti-choicer answers "Yes" to a murder charge.

[Patsy Stone]

29. My next question is

always: "Are you for the death penalty?" When people say yes, I ask how they can be both pro-life and for the death penalty. When they tell me there's a difference because one is a convicted criminal, I ask if they aren't supposed to forgive them instead of kill them. It can go on for a while.

If someone thinks that a woman should be charged with murder, then there's a good chance that you're never going to reach them.

[Mr_Spock]

30. Good response - I'll have to remember that

:D

[stepnw1f]

38. Ohhhhhh SNAP!

They aren't what they say they are, whether they know it or not.

[KyuzoGator]

39. Building on fire: Do you rescue one baby or five zygotes in a petri dish?

nt