Where can atheists and agnostics feel welcome?

[Erika]

The Republicans act like we are the scum of the earth. The democrats aren't much better with their run to the center when it turns to religious matters.

We pay our taxes, our kids join the military. But we are treated as unwanted step children. We don't care about religious matters as much as we care about personal freedoms under the Constitution.

Right now, we're left out there hanging. A great deal of us are also independents. We want to have a voice.

[JI7]

1. i'm an atheist

i don't feel like an "unwanted stepchild" though. most Dems support separation of church and state which is most important right now. particularly the intelligent design crap.

[shenmue]

5. I do

The Democratic Party is turning increasingly religious in order to win over voters who might be Republican. Can't they find a way to speak to all people?

[PublicWrath]

20. That worries me, too. I'm afraid they may make some major

compromises in that direction.

[Oversea Visitor]

2. Just ignore all the nutcases

I am a christian and they driving me nuts too

[babylonsister]

3. Religion should not be in the mix. That's a big part of the

problem. But not the big problem. The anti/total-fake is going down.

[pitohui]

4. it's a two party system

the reality is that democrats feel they have to spew the religious rhetoric because this is a majority christian country or at least a country of people who feel they have to pretend to fake it that they believe all that

but the democrats are not trying to take away your rights in your private life and give all your tax money to religious groups so i really think you have no choice

be your own voice

the more people who can be open and outright that they have doubts, the more our leaders will not have to give lip service to ancient superstition

this may be a case of if the people lead, the leaders will follow

[DanCa]

51. Actually I feel that it's a one party system

And that am forced to vote Dem if I ever want to see the scientific breakthroughs that I need so that I can have a normal life. Is the democratic party perfect hell fracking no but it sure as hell better than the rethugs. Just ask yourself a question would Senator Kerry have appointed Sam Alito to the supreme court?

[radwriter0555]

6. You want to be part of a group to raise your voice, just not a religious

group?

I've been non-religious all my life. I never felt the need to be part of a group to effect my opinion about anything political or otherwise, relevent to being non-religious as I am.

I don't even like having labels like agnostic or atheist. I'm just not religious.

Do you think I should join up with a group so I can be better at being non-religious?

[beam me up scottie]

10. I think MOST of us join groups

because we want to organize, to be heard, to be amongst other liberals.

WHy are you a member of DU?

Atheists are repeatedly told that we cost the party votes.

If that doesn't bother you, fine.

But it bothers the hell out of me.

I throw a fit when they do it to GLBT people and immigrants, is it too much to expect others to stand by us?

[pitohui]

18. i don't believe atheists/agnostics cost votes

i suspect the majority of people would love to lean a bit more toward the agnostic side, indeed, i've seen a HUGE change just since the 60s when at least in the south it was a scandal if you did not go to church on a sunday -- and now already it is a minority AN AGING MINORITY that attends church

there is a feeling we have to pretend but also a feeling that they are nod, nod, wink, winking and trying to acknowledge your greater intelligence because you have the capacity to doubt what you are told, which stupid people cannot do

a few generations more and the pretense can be abandoned

patience grasshopper

[beam me up scottie]

21. I really like you.

:)


We don't think we're more intelligent, maybe just wired differently.

Most atheists don't claim there is no god, we just can't believe in something without evidence.
We're called agnostic atheists.

[Erika]

23. I've never read a better post

It seems like those who attend church are afraid if they don't do it, bad things will happen.

I've often wondered about the true faith of Christians. They seem so damned scared of dying. Yet, their Bible shows Heaven as an Utopia. A true schism exists.

When I die, I die. Hopefully, I've left a positive impact. I don't worry about being judged, it will be enough to know that I can truly sleep and rest.

[unschooler]

35. Thomas Jefferson said that two decades ago.

a few generations more and the pretense can be abandoned

"The day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the Supreme Being as his father, in the womb of a virgin, will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter." (Vol. 4, p. 365.) http://www.positiveatheism.org/hist/jeffstein.htm

[Erika]

49. Jefferson said that two decades ago? OK n/t

[unschooler]

165. Whoops. I meant two CENTURIES ago.

:spray:

[DanCa]

30. What about those of us that can't stand? :D

Sorry bad joke but ya know I'm in your corner. I just wish that people would stop equating the gop with religion it's conservative dogma that there pushing.. God I hate the fundies that's where all this is coming from. Where's my baseball bat?
I am going hunting for fundies.

[beam me up scottie]

38. Well, they've managed to convince some on the left

that we need to cater to the religious.

So we're looking at "compromises" on separation of church and state issues, even if we get a Dem president.

[DanCa]

47. Which is ironic because Jesus was never friends with a politician.

God I am so torn up inside whenever I pass by a fundie church I want to smack the yaknow what out of those people. Than I hate feeling bad for praying for a cure in the form of a scientific breakthrough because the fundies make me feel like such a hypocrite. When will people get it thru their thick skulls that even Jesus said render what is ceasers unto ceasers and render what is the church onto the church? I can't stand this thing that the fundies worship. Hmm 9-11, iraq, katrina, the weather, energy, science and now religion. What more can the chimp do to screw up America? God I can't stand him and his fundie ilk.

[radwriter0555]

131. Do you believe them? I don't. I don't think being religious or not being

religious matters one iota in any format. I don't think anyone "costs anyone votes..."

I'm not an "us", I'm a human, an individual, a solo entity.

I don't 'belong' to DU per se, I participate. I'm not of the herd mentality.

Why do you place relevence on what others say, especially when it's not necessarily accurate?

Think for yourself. It's your own opinion that matters. What others think of you isn't relevent.

[Random_Australian]

134. Unfortunately, other peoples beliefs and opinions matter very much

when you are interacting with them.

Don't confuse feeling that the opinion of another is (adjective) with not being able to think for himself. Or as clarification, if you are African-American, you may well care very much what other people think and assume based on the attached label. But you still think for yourself.

[JI7]

11. that's the way i am also

i don't really want to be viewed or acknowledged as part of the "atheist group" that needs specific mention the way religious groups do.

the things i look at are separation of church and state type issues.

[ladjf]

136. The fact that non-religious people are automatically disqualified

is proof that religion has an ironclad stranglehold on the process. Non-religious candidates can run for office but can't be elected unless they can cover up their religious orientation.

[msgadget]

7. I don't feel that way, Erika

though I admit I never thought of it before your post.

I'd rather be part of a policy bloc like labor or healthcare or anti-war, not a 'non-religious bloc because my needs are the same as everyone's. I'm part of the whole, don't desire special attention for my religious views. I want to be paid attention to because I'm a voter, which should be enough for my voice to be heard. I think we should all just join together and protest 'til we're hoarse.

Good topic.

Edit for clarity...:)

[KitchenWitch]

8. Can you include Pagans and Wiccans in your welcome?

Gods, I get so damn sick of being accused of "devil worship" because I am pagan.

[Erika]

12. I like the simplicity of being pagan

I get so bored with the religious texts assumed to be the ultimate truth when it is known they were written by religious fundamentally men who had concubines and all the rest. Who is pagan?

[pacalo]

9. Just skip the posts regarding religious matters if they offend you.

I'm not sure I understand: Has anyone made you uncomfortable about your personal beliefs or are you bothered that "Democrats run to the center (in regard to) religious matters"?

[Erika]

17. I am very uncomfortable with the religious chest-beating

of the parties. It is like, vote for me because I'm more Godly than so and so.

What does Godliness have to do with paying my taxes or my family's kids fighting W's wars?

I should turn it off rather than calling hypocrisy?

[pacalo]

36. That gets on my nerves, too.

I'm a Christian, but I'm here to talk about getting rid of the nut in the WH. When I have talked about religion here, about 98% of my comments are about how annoying the fundies are.

One night last week, however, there was an article posted about a 7-year-old girl who, as a result of having been shot when she was 5, would be in a wheelchair for the rest of her life. Despite her tragic situation, she & her mother both had forgiveness for the convicted shooter. I commented how impressed I was that the girl was being raised with Christian ideals, because she would have enough challenges in life without having to deal with thoughts of hatred & revenge.

I got attacked by someone who called herself an atheist, who took offense because I used the word "Christian". The word "Christian" encapsules admirable, above-standard qualities; the thought that an atheist would read what I said & get offended was the last thing on my mind. She actually confronted me again on another thread that was about a cartoon about the fundies complaining that they were being discriminated against. (She said that I invoked Christianity into my posts! Mind you, that was the topic of the thread.)

My point is, the Democratic Party is a diverse party -- a melting pot of different beliefs, which is what makes it so great. We should be tolerant of everyone & not expect one set of beliefs to bend for another. If a topic doesn't appeal to me, I skip that thread/post. :)

[DanCa]

61. As Bruce Springsteen says :

" We've got god on our side, we just trying to survive, fears a powerful thing baby, it turns the heart black to dust, you take a god fearing soul and fill it with devils and dust-" Bruce Springsteen Devils and Dust.

[Hissyspit]

70. Hey, DanCa. Good choice to quote.

[DanCa]

72. Just remember Tuesday the new cd is comming out. :D

PS I got tickets for his tour today as well.

[Hissyspit]

73. He's on Good Morning America, that morning, too, I believe.

[DanCa]

75. Yeah am dying to hear his version of John Henry

I hope The boss plays alot of harmonica music on this albulm. I have been taking harp lessons since the Ghost of Tom Joad came out and I know about 75 percent of the songs on this cd. It'd be cool to jam with it.

[Hissyspit]

78. Link for anyone interested in tickets: I guess I will go

to Boston or D.C. or Philadelphia - closest he is to me.

http://www.backstreets.com/tour.html

[DanCa]

13. Well the Republicans dont practice christianity.

That's the problem right than and there. Don't mistake conservative dogma for Jesus' teachings. I know your a wonderful person. I dont care what your stance on religion is . Your always welcomed at my house. You've been a great friend to me on these forums and if you ever need anything in return please don't hesitate to ask. :hug: :loveya:

[Oversea Visitor]

14. Let me tell you about bill

Happened about an hour back

1) First post....... I am happy to be here
Talking about him been born again his vision of christ basically his holier than thou image
2) How to start a revival ...... whee more specific saying from the bible all the micro with no macro

3) Churst of Satan ..... :rofl:

4) Then finally last post :rofl: I like George Bush he is a God fearing man

Then the mighty GOD of DU spoke

And on his tombstone was written these words

" Here lies a Disruptor and he disrupt poorly "

So can you imagine the rants and curse he is having right now Erika

I can ...... DU is against Christ, it is an unholy place and all that crap.

So you see Erika you in good company DU just TS a GOD FEARING PERSON ( so called)

[Erika]

22. Bill was an amusing nut

He did bring a smile.

[Oversea Visitor]

24. He is a bad example of a god fearing person

See he use God name in vain.
He is for killing of innocents children and women
He is for lies
He is for the Culture of Blind hate

Does it matter what we believe
More important how we live our life

[Erika]

26. Uh, he was for the typical Republican n/t

[Oversea Visitor]

44. I am fimilar with such mindset

I am from Malaysia
We are what one call moderate muslim country
Very Multi-racial very Multi-culture country

We have an opposition party call PAS... Parti Agama Islam
Means the Islamic Party
They are religious based
They give the goverments lots of unending headache because of the mix in religion and politic

They get stronger the more the war drum is beaten.
We have what people call repressive law
Internal Security Act
We use this to throw those that goes too far into jail.
Do I have a problems with this law? NO
Do I have a problem with people saying we abuse human right because of this law? NO

Right now I say NO cause it is use in the right way.
But it can be abused and when it does I say NO to using it that way.
So we make sure our goverment stay the moderate way

[Dunvegan]

81. "The Mighty God of DU spoke...."

...you crack me up, Oversea Visitor.

:rofl:

[Oversea Visitor]

88. Hey

:hug:

One can have fun right :rofl:

I have no doubt that even GOD laugh over this

And his name was not use in vain in this case.

[leftofthedial]

15. in the burning, sulphurous pits of hell

where all god-hating commies belong!

just kidding.

we're basically screwed. Along with middle easterners, the one minority that it is okay to discriminate against with impunity.

we can hang out in the Atheist and Agnostics forum here at DU and commiserate though!

[Hissyspit]

16. England. Something like 40%+ are atheist, agnostic, non-declared.

If I'm not mistaken. Very few look at you like you are nuts if you say you don't believe in God.

[beam me up scottie]

25. You mean I can actually say that there?

Out loud?

Wow, what a trip.

Where I live and work, there's no better way to commit career and social suicide.

[Erika]

27. Yeah, Atheists and Agnostics are not heathens

But don't tell that to the South. We'll all just pretend otherwise.

[beam me up scottie]

31. I live in the south.

sigh...

[cynatnite]

45. Told a fundy I was an agnostic...

In E. TN, they will think you're smoking crack by making such an admission. She looked at me like I was a complete loon.

Now, about the only religious talk I do anywhere is on the internet.

[beam me up scottie]

50. Me too.

I know one other atheist at work, the only other one I've met since I've lived here.

We have to sneak around like we're part of the French Underground if we want to discuss anything religious.

[cynatnite]

58. I did the same thing when I wanted to finish reading a book at the VA

Hubby had an appointment and I had been reading 'Misquoting Jesus'. I took the cover off and put it on wrong side out so no one would know what I was reading. I could get away with an Al Franken book, but not that.

I've been approached three times at the VA by preachers who wanted to 'save' me. Wasn't willing to chance anything.

[beam me up scottie]

93. grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr

If anyone else tries to save me, they'd better save themselves, because I'm that far away from losing it.

I left Carl Sagan's Demon Haunted World on my desk at work, and LOL, someone else has been reading it on second or third shift.

I hope they're learning something.
:evilgrin:

[CrispyQ]

144. Demon Haunted World

One of the best books ever. Love that someone else is reading it too!! ;)

Damn! I love Carl!!

[CrispyQ]

143. FYI

"Misquoting Jesus" is the non-fiction book title for May. Discussion will start May first. We'd love to read your comments!


Non-fiction forum:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topics&forum=209

[charlie]

29. Or Japan

No country has a higher percentage of people who unreservedly assert that they are atheist, around 2/3. I've lived there, religion ain't no big thang, it's quieter and its practice is more cleanly segregated from ordinary day to day life.

http://www.adherents.com/largecom/com_atheist.html

[beam me up scottie]

33. Anywhere but here, apparently.

Don't you know, we've got an agenda, just like the GLBT people.

I'm so sick of seeing people vilify secular government, I could slap the snot out of them.

At least then they'd have a reason to whine about what I did to them.

[Hissyspit]

65. Whereabouts are you at, Beam...?

[beam me up scottie]

94. Kentucky.

ANd not the good part, where George Clooney is from.

[Hissyspit]

64. Same here. I teach in North Carolina.

Since it is a university, I can get away with stuff, but any faculty member here will tell you they watch their step. It is really sick, in a way.

Considering it is possible that Jesus didn't even exist, much less was the son of God or any kind of 'supernatural' being, it is amazing how ingrained these beliefs are.

[cynatnite]

69. The indoctrination begins in the early formative years...

It took me years to break from it and it was always a struggle. It still is. I was raised southern baptist with fire and brimstone preaching. Had the shit scared out of me a couple of times.

I still get that way at times and it's tough to deal with. I can walk into just about any christian church there is, but I get hesitant on anything else.

This may sound silly, but I still haven't gotten the courage to visit the UU church here.

There's a level of intimidation that has stayed with me...a fear, really. It's like there's this little kid inside that's frightened of doing the sacrilegious thing and going to hell for it.

[Hissyspit]

71. I got that indoctrination but I grew up.

Some may find that insulting, but I know of no better way to put it.

Go ahead and make the trip. You will find, probably, that you were sorry for not going sooner. You will find many like-minded people who will make you feel welcome.

[beam me up scottie]

74. WHY is the question.

I am trying to write an essay about how I've spent the better part of my life going "WTF?".

We're supposed to live in a democracy with clear separation of church and state.

Yet look at our laws:



Homosexuals are treated like second class citizens.

Why?


Drinking and gambling are considered "sins".

Why?


Women are once again facing the possibility of losing our right to choose.

Why?


Pharmacists can refuse to fill our prescriptions for contraception and morning after pills.

Why?


Women are still fighting a sometimes losing battle for equality. For example, women are still not allowed to hold the same billets as men in the armed services.

Why?


People like Danca are being denied possibly life saving treatments using stem cells.

Why?




I have always been an atheist and it BLOWS my mind when I think about this.

Why are we making and upholding laws based on centuries old ignorance and bigotry ?



Why?

[pnwmom]

84. That's interesting Beam me up. My area, on the other hand, is the

least "churched" in the country. Here, at least among the college-educated, you have to justify yourself if you DO go to church. The questions you may get asked by atheists (often, in a superior manner), can make you feel like some sort of anthropological specimen.

Because what everyone around here does on Sunday is go hiking.

[beam me up scottie]

90. sigh...

I'm from Vermont, another one of the least churched areas.

We never even talked about religion.

I became militant after chimp was installed and I moved to fundie hell.

It's like a different world.

[pnwmom]

107. Yeah, I bet it is. Fortunately, my husband has no more interest than

I in ever living in fundie country. (My sister has turned into an alien being since moving to TexASS twelve years ago, but even she hasn't turned into a fundie yet.)

Vermont is a beautiful state. Maybe you should think about a geographical cure?

[beam me up scottie]

112. I'm working on it.

Thanks.

It's quite expensive to live there so I'm trying to save my money.

I'm tempted to sell what little I have, move to the west coast and live on a park bench on the beach somewhere.

Anyplace but here.

These people make the Stepford Wives look like anarchists. :D




Too bad about your sister, maybe the decent Texans will rise up and tell the zealots to STFU.

[pnwmom]

116. My mom's living in TX now, too. She's my spy in enemy territory.

She lives in a smaller city, and the only reason she can stand it is because I got her on the web several years ago . . . so she can read what passes for news these days.

I'm still waiting for signals from her that the tide is breaking in our favor. Once Texas finally turns . . .

[beam me up scottie]

120. I know exactly how your mom feels.

I would be in jail now if not for the internet and DU.

FOr some reason, they don't allow people to run over the fundies.

It's not like I wouldn't give them a chance just because they're out in the open.

[pnwmom]

122. LOL! n/t

[Random_Australian]

124. ...

:rofl:

[mr blur]

130. Nobody here cares whether or not you believe in a god

Nobody talks about it. In fact, we are very suspicious of people who talk about gods (not to mention bored to death by them). I think if you mentioned a strong belief in a god at a workplace, you would be considered the weirdo...

[Random_Australian]

135. Same here, my friend as yet confined by mother England, same here.

Nobody in Aust minds if you are an atheist or what.
The U.S. has some strange attitudes, but be welcome, in atheism at least, here.

[PublicWrath]

37. That sounds right. England has never been intensely religious.

Even a thousand years ago, England was moderate and fairly sane compared to most of the Continent. When I get really scared about a fundy takeover, I usually picture exile in England for just that reason.

[Random_Australian]

96. IIRC didn't the puritans overrun the place once and then

make themselves so unpopular the mother England quietly reverted?

[PublicWrath]

127. Quite true. But, in general there has been less superstition of the cruel

blind, oppressive sort in England than in its neighbors. England has never tolerated much in the way of ecclesiastical tyranny for very long. One nice example is the way it soundly booted the Inquisition at the very dawn of the 14th century. The Inquisition made but one brief foray into England, and the priests in charge were sent away rather emphatically after only a couple of years. In fact, almost with boot prints on the backs of their cassocks.

[Olney Blue]

19. You have a voice- its called voting. Vote for who supports

your ideals as closely as possible. If this person is an independent, go independent.
Just be true to yourself.

Personally, I am agnostic, but I am comfortable as a Democrat. I don't care what religion
"the majority" practices, but separation of church and state should be maintained. Right now,
I don't think there is adequate separation.

[salvorhardin]

28. I'm fading fast here

But I think we do need to organize, and we might take some cues from our GLBT friends.

Here's something Modem Butterfly wrote about this...

People will tell you that atheists can’t get organized, that we are too diverse. That, quite simply, is bullshit. We have much in common, from our concern over the further blending of religion and politics in America to the value we place on education and science. We may differ on who should be president, but we all agree that the president should uphold the Constitution and not the Bible. Those of us who are liberal may fight with conservative atheists on how to fund the school system, but we can all agree that forcing students to attend religious assemblies is wrong and an abuse of the public trust. And all of us agree that the freedom OF religion is meaningless without freedom FROM religion

Of course, this is putting the cart before the horse. Before we can organize, we must identify ourselves. We have to come out of the closet and be open about being atheists. We have to be honest with our friends and our families, tell the truth about ourselves and our lives. We need to meet and get active with other atheists. We need to form a community.
http://www.neuralgourmet.com/comeoutcomeout

[Erika]

32. Great post. Thank you.

We can identify as soon as we all come out of the closet. The GLBT are a great example. It may be a fight, but damn, we pay taxes and our kids fight W's wars. I'm tired of the democrats/republicans acting like we don't exist.

[salvorhardin]

43. We've got to do it

It might make things worse for us as a lot of people, even people we *think* are on our side, will speak against us. But that's why the actual organizing part is so crucial.

As far as 'coming out' I think it's a good frame to use.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

34. Forgive My Ignorance, But Can You Educate Me On What The Problem Is?

I see threads like this a lot but don't really understand their root. In what ways are you being persecuted against or having your lives made harder by? In what ways are you treated like these step children? What are the actual matters you want and need resolved?

I'm just curious. I don't know enough about it.

[Erika]

40. How many threads have you seen on atheists/agnostics

being ignored? Can you show examples? Please do so.

The big rush is to show religiousity. Even McCain bowed to Falwell. The parties want to show which is most Christian.
This is truly an affront to those who believe religion has nothing to do with being an American.

[pnwmom]

86. It's also an affront to the many Christians who believe in separation

of Church and State.

Every time * says the word "bless" I want to throw up.

[beam me up scottie]

92. Precisely.

We have to be united on this issue.

Liberal christians have just as much to lose it they succeed.

[pnwmom]

110. We certainly do. I feel like the Repubs have been snaking their way

into the Catholic church till I can hardly recognize it anymore.

[beam me up scottie]

115. See, I hate to see that.

I grew up in a predominantly catholic area, and most of them were liberals.

It's too bad, really.

Do you think a split in the church is inevitable?

[pnwmom]

111. delete

[CrazyForKucinich]

63. "One nation under god", "In god we trust", other "god" crap.

It's thrown in our faces everyday by the government. If the Democrats cared about the atheists/agnostics/hindus they'd remove "God" from everything involving the government. The OP is correct...the Democrats do little for the non-christian crowd.

[DanCa]

67. Ya know I'd think that Jesus would be insulted in having his name on money

I mean isn't money the root of all evil? I remember readding that in the bible.

[Olney Blue]

151. DanCa- I believe it's the "love" of money that is the root of all evil...

not the money itself. :hi:

[Hissyspit]

68. General day-to-day suppression.

Fear of losing you job. Fear of causing conflict where none is necessary. Fear of not being able to discuss issues intelligently when those issues need to be discussed. Fear of not being able to be elected. Being unable to pass on knowledge and information and awareness that will help people and releive suffering and make their lives better because you will spend all your time fighting off attacks on whether you should even be talking about those things in the first place. Etc.

Did you not see the recent poll and articles that found that atheists were the most mistrusted people in America? It was frightening and appalling.

[Erika]

77. Yet atheists hold themselves accountable

because they don't believe in the whipping boy theory of Christ.

[spooky3]

145. here are some questions that may respond to yours

1) what are the chances that a candidate who is openly (but not proselytizingly, if that's a word) agnostic or atheist would win the Presidency or any other high public office? Now what about the chances of one who speaks about his/her atheism in the same manner that W or Joe Lieberman or even Jimmy Carter speaks about his beliefs?
2) how would you feel if for a month each year, people played music with a theme of "there is no god; you know it and we know it; let's celebrate"?
3) has any atheist boss ever refused to hire (or fired) a person because of his or her being a Christian, and gotten away with it? Do you think the opposite has happened?
4) have you ever been told by a family member who knew you were agnostic or atheist, when you politely declined to attend church with them, "I guess you just don't respect my views?"
5) have you ever had to file a lawsuit after politiely asking that your child's school system drop only the "under God" words from the required daily Pledge of Allegiance recitation? And when you did, did you receive hate mail, an avalanche of criticism by newspaper editorialists, ostracism from other parents, etc., etc., etc.?

I'm sure many people here could list many more questions that could give you a sense of the levels of discrimination.

[Hardrada]

39. They fear atheists don't feel guilt about sex (like they do).

The God thing is really secondary, I think.

Join the revived SDS. I can't think of any less theistic group.

Keep the ants out of our pants.
Keep the fundies out of our undies.

[Erika]

41. No, we don't

that simple.

[TreasonousBastard]

42. I'll meet ya halfway on that...

As a Christian, albeit on one of the extreme ends of it all, I'm all for separation of church and state, and NEVER make an argument for policy being guided by religious dictates-- it should always have a secular foundation. I've had plenty of knockdown-dragouts with other Christians who just didn't get it and never got the connection between attempted enforced religious here views and the Taliban. And, throwing God into discussions of taxes and such makes me puke, too.

I'll also agree wholeheartedly that discrimination against anyone for personal beliefs or nonbeliefs is wrong.

But, while I admit being in that alleged 85% of the more or less religious population and possibly not being sensitive enough to perceived slights, I gotta say that pandering to the religious is just part of politics. As is pandering to any other group, and should be taken with the appropriate grains of salt.

No, I don't think for a minute that such pandering will get the Falwell or Dobson vote, but there's a fair amount of sentiment in some areas that Democrats are the anti-God party, and I don't blame some of them in hard races for trying to dispel that. I certainly can't imagine any politician with any measure of sanity trying for the "atheist vote" whatever that may be. The major issue there is keeping religion out of public life, which most of them agree with-- especially those with large Jewish or Muslim constituencies where it's important to avoid choosing "which" religion.

I'll also say that it's convenient for politicians to have not only a religious connection with their constituents, but a common ethical base with them. It's easier for them to allude to a common thread of Christian ethical thought than to explain how their personal morality comes from Confucius or Sartre.

So, we all gotta put up with the pandering and bullshit we hear all day and see how these people work on the real issues.

[Erika]

46. That is insulting to atheists and agnostics

That simple. For you to believe that atheists and agnostics do not have the moral depth that "Christians" do is insulting.

Many of us believe that our legacy is what is important. That we owe the next generation is more important than what we received is our belief. We have no preconceived notion that God will grant us anything. He's not in the picture with us.

We owe our children and grandchildren because we care. God is not in the picture. Nor his reward or damnation.

[cynatnite]

54. He didn't say that at all

He said there is a sentiment among repukes that dems are godless heathens and he didn't blame those running for office to play for the christian vote. It is like that in the south. If you're going to be a dem in the south, you better sound a lot like a repuke, too. Just the way it is.

[TreasonousBastard]

62. Who said that? What I said was...

that it was simply convenient to talk to a common understanding, not that that common thought was any better or worse than any other.

And that there's a lot of pandering going on. If you don't like the pandering toward Christians, no doubt there's something else they can pander you about.

Ignore what they say and watch what they do-- aside from not wanting any government sponsoring of religion, my issues with these people have nothing whatsoever to do with my religion and I would assume that would be the same for those with no religion.

[pnwmom]

102. That's not what he's saying. Now who's being defensive?

Christians are not a monolithic group any more than atheists or agnostics. We all have our different issues and priorities. And, except for a certain group of fundies, most of us believe in the separation of Church and State.

(By the way, a major Baptist org. came out today supporting the value of public education. Good for them.)

What some Democratic politicians are belatedly discovering is that there is a large group of middle of the road Christians -- people who care about poverty, civil rights, the death penalty, the environment, racism, etc. -- who should find the Dem party appealing. But the Repubs have somehow succeeded in labeling themselves as the party for people with "values." So the Dems are looking for ways to reach out to this large group of Christians who share many, if not all, of the party's stands on issues.

All of us, atheists, agnostic, theist or whatever, will benefit from regime change. We desperately need to open up all the doors and windows and let in some fresh air.

Politics always has been the art of compromise. Better to be the party with a big tent than the party who doesn't control a single committee in the House or the Senate, and can't keep people like Sam Alito off the Supreme Court.

[FlaGranny]

158. I can spout off on values all day, constantly.

I can talk about morality, forgiveness, etc., non-endingly. And I can do it without any mention of Christianity or God or religion. I am well versed in morality and values. In fact, the values of the fundamentalist Christian branch of the family come in a very poor second to mine. They are bigoted, greedy, and one of them even got caught shoplifting. I expect my politicians to be able to do the same as me - project their moral values without mentioning their religious beliefs. I certainly want them to be moral, but have no desire to know if they are religious or atheists.

[cynatnite]

48. Here in the south, there are some fundies...

who truly believe dems are godless and want to kill babies. It's really frightening when I run across it.

[Erika]

52. Why I will never visit the South

and am detesting even my layover in Atlanta in August.

[cynatnite]

56. Not everyone is like that

Geez, I'm in the south and there are a shitload of DUer's in the south. There are some really good people, who are republican and christian, too. They're kind, giving and very caring.

Not all of them are the blathering freeptards you hear about on DU.

Some folk here are pretty nice. Oh, and Atlanta's got a hell of a lot blue in it, too.

[TreasonousBastard]

66. They're all over...

I've run into them in NY & NJ, too.

There aren't that many here, though, and I would hope that down there they aren't the majority. Up here it seems to come from a reaction to the extraordinary multicultural "experience" some just can't handle. In many areas down there I would suspect it comes from isolation from that sort of multiculturalism. I've heard people who have never met a Jew, or never met a Catholic and think Catholicism has nothing to do with Christianity. I also know people who can't find a non-fundagelical church within driving distance.

Ya just never know where people get their strange ideas.

[beam me up scottie]

55. Howard Dean never panders to them.

Not in Vermont, and not now.

Anyone who seeks to weaken the separation of church and state is my enemy.

[PassingFair]

160. Just ONE of the many reasons that Howard Dean will

...always have my support.

The ONLY realist in politics, as far as I
have seen, well, maybe Henry Waxman, too.
Okay, Russ Feingold is looking good to me,
too....

[CrispyQ]

146. What the fundies don't understand

is that it doesn't matter where or how you derive your ethical code, if you believe in free will, do you follow your code moment to moment or not?

[NVMojo]

53. I'm leaning towards agnostic myself. Christian fundies today are the worst

thing to happen to Jesus Christ since his "crucifixtion".

[DanCa]

57. Ha . I like that may I borrow it?

It ranks right up there with Al Sharpton's the christian right aren't the right christians.

[cynatnite]

60. Hmph...I'm stealing both of those

:P

[Erika]

59. I think if everyone followed Christ's teachings

it would be a beautiful world. He was a peacenik and a socialist.

W and the GOP could never tolerate such beliefs. Greed never entered Christ's mind.

[LittleClarkie]

76. I won't evangelize you if you don't snark about the invisible sky daddy

Deal?

Meanwhile, this is weird in a way. There's a war on Christians and a war on Atheists and a war on Muslims and a war on Agnostics.

Maybe I should become a Daoist.

[cynatnite]

79. There's a war on agnostics?

When'd that start? Where was I?

Geez, that's what I get for missing the secret meetings.

Gonna go sulk and find out what Daoist is. :P

[LittleClarkie]

82. I figured that since the OP included them, I should too

I kinda like agnostics actually. The big shrug seems to me to be the most honest answer of all.

But I have met atheists on line who won't let an agnostic be an agnostic. "They're really atheists, doncha know. They just don't know it."

[Random_Australian]

87. That is because us Atheists occasionally suffer from

attacks of evangelism.

I wish they wouldn't be so intrusive on others beliefs, Rfitqc dammit!

Grrrrr....

Mind you, if you were to go to the DU A&A forum you may well conclude atheists are all nice people.

If you ever need disabusing of that notion, see 'The Raving Atheist'. My Rfitqc, what a loon!

[LittleClarkie]

91. The ones I knew on usenet

Some where nice. Some very angry. Some were recovering Fundamentalists. Most loved to argue formal logic, though I'm not convinced that's the way to go in all instances. But it was an interesting lesson in fallacies nonetheless.

Some were offended even by the roadside crosses that mark where someone died. Others thought that was silly.

In any event, the internets is a lousy place to have such a discussion, esp. on usenet, where trolls abound.

[beam me up scottie]

98. No, we don't all "suffer from attacks of evangelism".

Only a few of us do.

Most of us could care less what anyone else believes as long as it stops with controlling their behaviour and not ours.

[Random_Australian]

100. Sorry BMUS, cross-culture again or bad wording-

It means that a few atheists suffer from evangelism.

NOT that all atheists suffer a little evangelism.

That less unamiable?

[beam me up scottie]

106. Sorry,

I am touchy about this since I hear it all the time from some christians in the R&T forum.

Old stereotypes die hard, especially in Amurka, where they've spent decades vilifying atheists.

Quite successfully, actually.

[Random_Australian]

109. *phewf* I am very, very relieved that that is sorted without damage.

*long, deep breath*

I hate giving accidental offense. Or offense in general.

[beam me up scottie]

113. LOL!

Stick around DU, you'll get over that in a hurry!

[Random_Australian]

117. I am working on bieng the second most prolific poster;

if I reach 3000 tonight that will be 3K in 3 months.

But, yes, trolls and such I'll offend to no end.

But to mates like you, Bmus, I just won't do that.

[beam me up scottie]

121. Wow, congrats on your 3K!

I've enjoyed them immensely!
:toast:

[Random_Australian]

123. Aye! I don't drink and I haven't started writing that new

internet pyramid woo-woo thing (wink wink), so I post a lot.

Don't find my posts offensive? Read this: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=247&topic_id=6137&mesg_id=6137

;)

:toast:

[beam me up scottie]

125. nooooooooooooooooooooooo !!!

I should have been allowed to participate!

You potato bigot.

[Random_Australian]

126. I thought you could use the laugh. Your PM sounded stressed.

[beam me up scottie]

128. Too many threads.

Going nuts here.

[beam me up scottie]

95. You are aware there are different kinds of atheists, aren't you?

Agnostic atheists, which is what the majority are, do not claim there is no god.

We don't believe in a god when there is no evidence he exists.

There's a difference.

So most agnostics can be considered atheists.

I used to call myself one because I didn't want to be stereotyped by people like you.

That's why the word "agnostic" was invented, actually.

[LittleClarkie]

101. Stereotyped by "people like me"?

How... ironic.

Who are "people like me"?

Yes there are strong atheists and weak atheists (I think those are the terms) and the word was invented by Thomas Huxley so that he'd have a name for his position, which near as I could tell from his writings was "not enough info".

The thing is, I watched agnostics argue with atheists over what they called themselves. Some agnostics don't go with "agnostic atheist" and object to be told by an atheist that they are indeed atheist and not agnostic.

Ah, life on usenet. I used to spend way to much time there.

[beam me up scottie]

104. Ah, if you miss it,

check out the R&T forum here.

We have to defend ourselves against some christians who LOVE to tell us what we believe and what we should call ourselves.

It's a long running battle that has worn us out and I'm touchy about the lingo because of it.

Sorry if I misjudged your intent.

[LittleClarkie]

114. It's cool. As the token theist on alt.atheism

I saw more than my share of obnoxious high and mighty Christians come in and say rude things to the atheists there. Never could figure that out, as they weren't being particularly Christ-like. Near as I can figure, a couple of them just weren't right in the head. But then there was one atheist who wasn't quite right either, so it was sorta even.

So I guess I know sorta how you feel about having to do battle with some people.

I grew up in Virginia, where the 700 Club always seemed to be on. I thought for a while that I was a second-hand Christian because I just for the life of me couldn't be like Pat Robertson. Even now, I've had Republicans say "Don't you know that God is Republican." No, I don't. I refuse to let them "own" God.

I've been though my own little mind fucks because I listened too long to some Fundamentalists and thought that, because my self-esteem was in the toilet, they must be right and I must be wrong. It took me a good long while to realize it was okay to think for myself, and work out what I believed instead of following someone else.

So I guess i'm kinda touchy too. I don't like being lumped in with Fundamentalists. They make my teeth itch.

[beam me up scottie]

119. Snort!

My ex-husband has been convinced that he was going to hell since he was twelve.
His mother made sure he was born again at an early age.

Before puberty set in.

No kid can possibly live up to their standards.
He couldn't, hence the life long guilt trip.

The really stupid thing is, if she hadn't forced the issue, he wouldn't have done half the things he did.

I guess when you think you're doomed, there's not much to lose.

[charlie]

108. Well... it was Usenet

That explains a lot. The only place where teeming hordes will battle for months over which way to hang the toilet paper :)

[LittleClarkie]

118. Ain't that the truth.

There were some very strange Christians who came onto the group to "do battle" with atheists who mostly wanted to be left alone.

But there were a couple of very strange atheists who sorta evened things out. Bless them, I think some of them were recovering Fundamentalists. Problem was, they still seemed to be stuck in black/white mode, and argued that way.

But yeah, I grew out of usenet after a couple of years as an internet newbie because after a while you realize there is no point to most of it.

[Erika]

80. Join the war on Christians

They are crying if they aren't recognized as the exalted ones. They know how to be the ultimate victims. They think of themselves as victims if they aren't proclaimed as the group on top of the Totem pole. But of course, they slaughtered, through genocide, the group who made the Totem poles.

[LittleClarkie]

83. I'm not crying.

Put down that extra broad brush. We're not all like that.

Fundamentalists, maybe. But not ALL Christians. Some of your fellow liberals are Christians. I discovered during the campaign that I go to a church filled with liberal Christians, right in the middle of Freeperland. I was so pleased.

Anyway, I subscribe to the "I won't fuck with you. You don't fuck with me. And we can both leave each other alone if we can't have a civil discussion on the issue" approach.

I'm dealing with my shit. You can deal with yours. I don't have all the answers, and neither do you.

[Erika]

85. Why are you so defensive?

No one attacked you. We just asked for a voice.

[beam me up scottie]

97. You used a broad brush yourself.

We acknowledge that there are differences between christians, why can't you do the same for us?

[LittleClarkie]

103. I wasn't seeing that in the statement. I hope that people acknowledge that

but often it isn't represented in their language. They forget to say "some Christians" or "fundamentalists" and just say "Christians". I would hope the distinction was being made. But it's not always clear due to imprecise language.

[beam me up scottie]

105. Yeah, it's hard to gage intent on the internet.

I usually try to qualify my statements but if I forget, I hope someone tells me.

I don't want to alienate my allies because of a misunderstanding.

[pnwmom]

89. I wish people wouldn't lump all Christians in the same group, ignoring

the fact that there are huge differences among different denominations and even within the same denomination.

The fundies, despite all their blather, are actually a minority among Christians.

[beam me up scottie]

99. Most of us do know that.

But when we're ranting we may forget to qualify our statements.

Just ask us to clarify if you're not sure, most DUers won't use a broad brush if they can help it.

Although there are others who can't help themselves.

[toddaa]

138. Oooh, another Daoist on DU

I can dream.

[Skittles]

129. nowhere

I realized long ago I simply had to adapt to a world where the overwhelming majority believes in fairy tales

[Lerkfish]

132. my impression is that you are very welcome here.

take a gander over to the religion forum. Plenty of freedom for atheists and agnostics have a voice.
I'm not aware of any attempt to disinclude atheists and agnostics from the democratic party.
Maybe you can provide examples of such?

[Random_Australian]

133. We're pretty welcome in there, yes, and very welcome in

DU A&A, but the main issue is the real world, I'm afraid.

My friends, if watching, shall give you your examples soon, I hope.
In the meantime purely as clarification, atheists do not claim to be unwelcome here anymore. See upthread about the "If I didn't have here to vent I would be in jail ".

Back, years ago, there were large atheist/theist flamewars, though.

The claim is that atheists are repressed and discriminated against in society. Especially freeper palaces.

[Lerkfish]

141. ah. well, progressive christians are ALSO unwelcome in freeper palaces, if

that makes you feel any better.

[exlrrp]

137. Not in Heaven, thats for sure n/t

.

[kikiek]

139. Check out Unitarian Universalists meetings in your area.

All are welcome there, and it isn't religious. Most of the people in our fellowship are atheists. There are some Christians too, but nothing religious is pushed. Could be offensive to some Christians actually. Our meetings are mostly philosophical discussions. No creed exists only a belief in the value of all people.

[Random_Australian]

140. Wow. After all I have heard of America it is nice to hear that!

[kikiek]

156. I no loner feel like there isn't anyone around who thinks like me. There

are quite a few. I now feel comfortable saying to people that I am not a Christian. Gee that feels good. I am spiritual, but that is very open to interpretation. Live and let live.

[Festivito]

142. So, what do you suggest to give voice to atheists?

Constitutional change?
. freedom of religion and freedom of no religion

Definitional change?
. Atheism is a religion, therefore deserving same respect and voice. (Not recommended as this might lead to no-religion being a religion, thereby saying that no religion is given special preference to atheism as a religion over and above other religions when for example a Christmas display is not allowed, say in front of a City Hall.)

Enforcement change?
. There will be "free practice" zones, like there are "free speech" zones, where people may speak about their religion freely and practice their religion freely, thereby giving atheists a break from hearing others talk about their religion.

Eradication?
. Schools should not be allowed to purchase Bibles(or any religious paraphernalia), nor store them on federally funded properties. Nor should any religious orientated group be allowed to speak over microphones or monitors, nor to display, nor to meet on any property receiving federal funds. Then the government should invest, small amounts, in every and in all properties, public and private, in the U.S. With this investment and government ownership of all remaining lands, there can be allowed no outwardly religious displays, or practice, anywhere in the U.S.

P.S. This may seem more than a little silly, but also a little serious. My real suggestion is that we can get along without eradicating each other's speech, practice or choice. I certainly mean no ill against any atheist, agnostic or religionists of any persuasion, many of each whom I count as friends.

[Mountainman]

147. At my house.

I welcome everyone as long as they respect the opinion of others.

[begley]

148. My daughter's softball coach wanted a team prayer before.....

every practice and every game. I live in a southern bible-belt area, and the coach was a member of an evangelical protestant denomination. Although we are Catholic, the idea of a group prayer all the time made me uncomfortable. The other parents were fine with it, and I didn't want to cause trouble. But one day, the coach announced he wasn't going to be there for the next game and since I was helping out, he asked me if I would be in charge. And I said "Sure.". And so we talked about what to do, and at the end he said "Be sure to lead the team prayer", and I said I felt uncomfortable doing that. He then sort of lectured me about the importance of a team prayer. I replied that I thought prayer was a private matter in these circumstances. He strongly disagreed, so I agreed to lead a public prayer, but I wanted to do it on my terms. He said that was fine. And I said 'Great. We'll start with the sign of the cross, then say the Apostle's Creed and some Hail Marys'. Well, he turned very pale and looked like he'd just swallowed his whistle. Then I said, 'or maybe we'll just ask the kids to say a private prayer to themselves if they want'. To that he agreed.

The point is, he was for prayer, but only if it was his brand of prayer. Some of you atheists might think this separation of church and state debate is all us religious folks against all you non-religious folks. But that's not it at all; it's about respecting each individual's beliefs.

[kath]

161. Heh - reminds me of my dad. When someone asks him if he thinks there

should be prayer in school, he says "Sure, there should be prayer in school. On Monday say the Rosary, on Tuesdays get out the prayer mats and face Mecca and pray to Allah, on Wednesday..." -- by this time the bible-thumper who asked the question is all red in the face and stammering "uhhh, uhhh, that's not what I meant!" -- EXACTLY, that's not what he meant. What he *meant* was PROTESTANT prayer.

Assholes.

[begley]

164. precisely, Kath

:)

[lonestarnot]

149. In hell... oh .... well you asked.

[Clark2008]

150. Let me ask you a question:

Do you constantly tell religious people that they're "stupid" for believing in an "invisible man in the sky?"

I'm not saying you do - that's why I'm asking.

The problem I see with SOME (certainly not all) agnostics and atheists on THIS board is that they constantly talk down to or sneer at people who have faith, making those agnostics and atheists no more tolerant that the fundies whom they despise.

The key - for all of us, religious or not - is to be CIVIL and respect other peoples' beliefs. Don't call me stupid for believing in God (I also believe in evolution - I don't think the two beliefs are polar opposites) and religious people should not tell you that you're going to hell because you don't believe as they do.

Tolerance is not only a liberal belief, it SHOULD be an American one.

If we would practice this, I think we all would feel more included in the body politic.

Oh - and ignore the corporate media. Just because they're yelling that this election is all about religion, doesn't make it so. When asked, most people say they're voting on the issues of jobs, economy and war, NOT religion.

[lonestarnot]

152. No one flamed me for my hell comment yet.

I'm waiting.

[alarimer]

153. I think the bigger problem is that atheists cannot be elected

At least those that don't pretend to believe in order to win votes. I am an atheist and all I see are politicians pandering to the relgious crowd. I hate having it forced down my throat too but I would prefer politicians that stand up for what they believe, even if it is nothing.

[kath]

162. Exactly - that is a HUGE problem. We, unfortunately, are DECADES away

from the situation where an openly atheist person can run for higher ofice in this country and even dream of having a chance.

[BlooInBloo]

154. Anywhere truth is valued.

[happydreams]

155. Religion is a brain numbing experience no matter how you

cut it. It forces one to believe in Bible BS in order to be accepted into the peer group. You have to believe in God to be in politics in this country for christ's sake!

On a larger scale it is used by corporate predators to divide people and have them at each others throats.

[pnwmom]

163. All religion isn't fundamentalist. Most Christian denominations aren't.

Right now, there IS too much mixing of religion and politics. But many of the founders of this country were not Christians, at least in today's use of the term, and hopefully we will return to that.

[Left Is Write]

157. Sometimes it feels that way being a religious person and a liberal.

It sometimes seems as if no one wants us.

I've been told I can't be a "real" Christian because I am liberal socially, spiritually, and politically.

I've been told I can't be a "real" liberal because I am Christian. (And you know, the only place I ever refer to myself as "Christian" is online in religion-related discussions. If I'm asked my religious affiliation in person, I don't say "Christian", I say "Lutheran.")

Someone right here on DU told me they couldn't/wouldn't believe the things I say because they didn't believe it was possible to be both religious and liberal.

[LunaSea]

159. Atheists on the radio

Penn Jillette, the large, louder half of Penn&Teller, has a weekday program you can find here-
http://penn.freefm.com/

He's loud, gruff and tells funny stories about show-biz, and atheism is a favorite topic.
Just last week responding to the old "atheists in foxholes" line, uttered on morning tv, he read the following letter from a veteran-

Dear Ms. Couric,


While there is nothing wrong with a program highlighting the role religion has played in America\'s armed forces, I find your mindless parroting of that silly old aphorism "There are no atheists in foxholes" to be thoughtless and downright offensive to the families of uncountable numbers of atheists (and I include agnostics) who gave their lives wearing the uniform of the American armed forces.


Oh, yes -- there are, and always have been atheists – both draftees and volunteers -- on the battlefield, many of whom bear the scars of war or are resting (ironically) below white crosses in battlefield cemeteries throughout the world.


I am in a position to know: After initially being nominated to West Point, I enlisted in the United States Army as a Private in 1964 and served 21 years on active duty, retiring as a Master Sergeant in 1985. As one who is not shy about proclaiming my firm non-belief in any supernatural nonsense, religious or otherwise, I became aware of literally thousands of fellow-atheists in uniform all over the world. Some were overt and public about their beliefs, some were not, but I never met one who did not take seriously his sworn obligation to serve honorably and lay down his life if necessary. Many did.

The military is fully aware of the existence of atheists in uniform and, in fact, makes specific allowance for us in the Oath of Enlistment. In the Oath there is a clear choice -- we can "swear" (basically before "God," the Great Pumpkin, whatever.) to serve our country, or we can "affirm" the Oath. There are NO Bibles or other sacred books used in this Oath, unlike for some political offices, and the only item required to be present is the American flag. All my re-enlistments were "affirmed," as were hundreds of others I witnessed.

Among these "affirmed" Oaths I personally counted dozens of soldiers wearing Purple Hearts, Bronze Stars, and at least five Silver Stars. Among them were Special Forces, Rangers, Intelligence Officers, Artillerymen, tank crewmen, helicopter crewmen, cooks, paratroopers, combat medics, truck drivers and Infantrymen.

No atheists in foxholes? I beg to differ.
Preachers may blather on about serving "for God and country," but, as any number of combat studies have proven, that is pure crap -- to use a traditional military term. Soldiers certainly do enlist for patriotic motives, and many of them no doubt have deeply-held religious beliefs, but that is not why, in the heat of combat, they risk their lives. They risk their lives for their fellow soldiers -- to not let their comrades down, and to assure the survival of their buddies (and themselves) by getting the job done as rapidly and brutally as possible.


Broadcasting a feel-good fluff-piece on religion is all well and good, but perpetuating the nonsense that only religious zealots defend their country is not only offensive, but demonstrably wrong. Most atheists and agnostics in uniform get stuck with the Army\'s favorite euphemism "No Religious Preference," on their dog tags, but mine simply said "Atheist" after some initial arguments with my superiors.

I am offended by your comments, primarily in memory of the silent masses of non-believers who did not make it back to object to your treatment of their deeply-held beliefs. I believe you, and NBC, owe them an apology.



-Gid L. White
Master Sergeant, United States Army (Retired)
---

This might make for some interesting listening at work, especially in the southeast.

Another one in east tennessee.......