Neil Young lost my support for is music when he favored Patriot Act!

[flamingpie2500]

I for one will not make a hero out of someone who likes to write his music according to what the thinks the majority want to hear.

Don't get me wrong, he is a terrific song writer, but I don't like making a hero out of a hypocrite.

snip:

Neil Young: Give Up Your Rights
Broken Arrow
By Lee Ballinger and Dave Marsh

People for the American Way, which once described the goal of the PMRC censors as "to bring children and parents together on music selection," gave Neil Young its Spirit of Liberty award at a December 11 Beverly Hills banquet. Young used the occasion to proclaim his support of the USA/Patriot Act, which became law on October 26. "To protect our freedoms," Young said, "it seems we're going to have to relinquish some of our freedoms for a short period of time."
http://www.counterpunch.org/neilyoung.html
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=post&forum=364
http://www.moonbattery.com/archives/2006/04/neil_young_reve.html

[stellanoir]

1. operative phrase. . .

"for a short period of time."

Nobody liked that act but there was at least a sunset provision. Nobody thought they'd ignore habeas corpus and the Geneva Convention or lie us into war at that point.

I think his outrage is as sincere as anyone else's.

[grottieyottie]

2. Exactly

"it seems we're going to have to relinquish some of our freedoms for a short period of time."

[flamingpie2500]

4. Operative phrase:

Young used the occasion to proclaim his support of the USA/Patriot Act.

I for one have never supported the patriot act--not even for a "short period of time"

[still_one]

26. like you I never supported the patriot act

but if you cannot stand young because of his "hypocricy", then you must feel the same way about most of the democrats in congress because they voted for it

[Bill McBlueState]

48. i sort of assumed they'd do those things

But still, lots of people had some pretty crazy ideas after 9/11. I'm willing to forgive someone like Neil Young.

[Notoverit]

3. If he were up for election for something, that would actually matter

As he is only a musician, and one brave enough to say the right thing NOW, you'll be the only one he's losing. Standards are somewhat different. For instance , I wouldn't vote for someone who waived Ashcroft through, even if he voted AGAINST the Patriot Act. The level of trust needs to be higher, because they can affect my life more directly.
Someone who conceded to Bush although he won and never fought or disclosed the theft can't get my vote. Neil Young however, can get my money for his record.

[flamingpie2500]

5. Well if you look at the headlines the last few days on DU people seem

to think he is some sort of hero.

He IS just a songwriter and an opportunistic one at that.

[NWHarkness]

9. So What?

He is, at this point in time, on our side.

If we refuse to accept anyone into the fold who ever disagreed with us, we will guarantee our minority status in perpetuity.

[fishnfla]

12. Excuse me, he's not "just a songwriter"

He owned Lionel Trains and other businesses, he has a recording studio which produces alot of acts, including new artists. He is the father of a quadraplegic and does much work for that charity.

You so have no idea what you are talking about

[Name removed]

15. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[dogday]

32. Anyone who comes out against this

administration, even if they were for it at one time is a hero... Murtha and the Generals, all of them waking up from the fog or deceit and lies... If you can't forgive anybody of anything, perhaps you are in the wrong party... We do some forgiving on this side of the aisle...

[proud2BlibKansan]

34. He writes awesome songs about the struggles of our times

Ohio is an all time classic.

And you know it kills me when anyone uses the label opportunistic for performing artists. So they aren't supposed to try to please their audience? LOL

[Media_Lies_Daily]

78. He IS a hero to those of us who understand what he really believes in....

...but I can understand not liking him based on a single cherry-picked remark out of 40 years of music. No, really.

[Cetacea]

87. Artists are looked down upon in this country

Your statement is evidence of that fact. They are just as important as doctors or whatever profession you want to list.
In addition to his music, I suggest you do some research into all that Young has contributed in the way of charities, etc... before spiting yourself by not buying his (most likely excellent) album.

[fishnfla]

6. Neil Young doesn't need your support for his music!

He doesn't want to be your hero!

News flash: He is in his fifth decade of making awesome music. WTF does he need you for?

[flamingpie2500]

22. I debate to gain knowledge.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

77. Was your post actually seeking debate? Hmmmm.

[proud2BlibKansan]

35. LOL AMEN

[H2O Man]

36. Right.

It takes a remarkable shallowness to base one's musical tastes on a rigid, narrow type of thinking. I may not agree with a John Lennon or Bob Marley on ever issue, but like Neil Young, I admired their refusal to try to pander to that type of rigid, narrow thinking.

[bullimiami]

7. im sure he knows what a huge mistake that was now.

[tom_paine]

8. Neil Young made a mistake, a LOT of people made the same mistake

If you reject everyone who ever mistakenly bought all or part of the Bushevik line, especially in the shock and horror of post-9/11 MIHOP/LIHOP, then you will never accept any more than the 10% of us who saw through Chimperor Tiberius' lying, tyrannical ass from the beginning.

A small crowd.

Sorry, but if we are ever to restore Imperial Amerika to Free America, we have to treat with acceptance our brethren (and sistren, if that is a word) who even at this late date are realizing they've been misled.

To stick our noses in the air in that way smacks of the elitism of Soviet Communists, Nazis, and their Kinder and Gentler spiritual descendants, the Busheviks.

I believe it was Niezstche who said something like, "Beware in fighting monsters that you don't become one yourself."

Neil Young's latest album, his impassioned and sincere words, MORE than make up for his being misled as hundreds of millions were.

[flamingpie2500]

11. I am not REJECTING him= I am worried about the mass acceptance of

musicians as our political voice. I haven't heard the album yet, but I would hope somewhere in there is a reference to his mistake. If you are going to be writing political music you had better be sure of what you are saying and be ready to admit to those mistakes.

[blm]

25. MOST of the Patriot Act was NOT A MISTAKE to support - You would toss

Wellstone, Kennedy and Boxer out, too?

The aspects of the Patriot Act that need changing will GET changed in a few years when a Dem president takes over and adjusts it.

The senate already voted for a Patriot Act with the changes needed - so they know exactly which parts that WILL get changed.

Be more concerned about issues that CAN'T BE CHANGED easily - like having Roberts and Alito on a Supreme Court making decisions that will truly effect this country for a few generations.

[OneBlueSky]

38. music has ALWAYS provided a voice for people . . .

and artists have used their craft to educate and inspire since time began . . .

musicians are not OUR political voice . . . they are their own voices -- and the good ones speak TO us, not FOR us . . .

[tomp]

13. sorry, maybe "make up for", maybe...

...but not MORE than make up for. small disticntion, but i will always remember how wrong he was and not really trust him. "let's roll" is a scar he'll have to bear.

[havocmom]

64. Glad to see you weigh in with your sound logic & common sense

I know it is frustrating for you to be a voice in what may well feel like a wilderness ;)

Good to see you dropping by. We need the sound of your logic & Common Sense.

I agree with you. No one always makes the correct choice. No one always has all the info they need too make the correct choice It was not by accident that the GOP and corporations started paring away the laws restricting too much media ownership in too few hands. They knew if they controlled the media they could control the info people had to base their choices on. So, with media under tight control, millions of people made uninformed choices.

Now, what works best to solve the immediate problems?

1)Calling people names and refusing to accept their efforts to catch up on the truth and make ammends by taking action

2)Accepting them without rankor or patronizing them and working with them to fix what is broken. We can teach them and we can learn from them. Through accepting them as allies, we gain even more allies among those still on the sidelines.

Yep, we win through gaining strength. We do that by understanding and empathy.

[saltpoint]

10. Never a good idea to one-issue somebody.

Few of us are perfect. None of us is, is my guess.

A list of Neil Young's virtues is a long list indeed.

[flamingpie2500]

14. I didn't make the issue--Young did. I am 49 years old and have had

everyone one of his albums. When he came out in support of the patriot act I was shocked and realized he wants his share of the headlines for profit.

[saltpoint]

16. You appear to have inside information the rest of us are not privvy to.

My guess is you don't know what Mr. Young is like. Not at all.

You claim is baseless.

[dogday]

19. I believed a lot of stuff until

I found out other things... People find knowledge at their own rates, not at the ones we choose for them.. He believed one thing and now he believes another... A great many of our politicians are in that category... If you dislike Neil so much, you must love the Dixie Chicks then...

[saltpoint]

21. You know, I'm thinking you should order some Wayne Newton albums.

I'm serious. He NEVER takes a controvesial stand on ANYTHING. You won't have to do any thinking AT ALL.

And he mostly stays in Las Vegas, singing to people who also don't do any thinking at all.

Stay away from Neil Young, or Springsteen, or Nina Simone, or any artist of any musical genre whose career occasionally or consistently may involve controversy. Any controversy.

And continue, if you will, to warn the rest of us whenever a HYPOCRITE rears his ugly, confused head, profit-mongering head. We're a fragile bunch out here, and we need the protection, by god.

Thank you for a useful service.

[flamingpie2500]

24. Neil Young came out in support of the Patriot Act. Enough said

[saltpoint]

27. Wrong. You fail to allow him to evolve his position and you slam

people who like his music when you call him a "hypocrite" (your word).

[blm]

28. HAHAHAH - you do NOT KNOW Neil Young. He has turned down so many

commercial efforts that would have lined his pockets, they can hardly be counted.

[incapsulated]

68. This Note's For You!

"This Note's For You"

by Neil Young

Don't want no cash
Don't need no money
Ain't got no stash
This note's for you.

Ain't singin' for Pepsi
Ain't singin' for Coke
I don't sing for nobody
Makes me look like a joke
This note's for you.

Ain't singin' for Miller
Don't sing for Bud
I won't sing for politicians
Ain't singin' for Spuds
This note's for you.

Don't need no cash
Don't want no money
Ain't got no stash
This note's for you.

I've got the real thing
I got the real thing, baby
I got the real thing...

[Media_Lies_Daily]

79. Unfortunately for you, you are sadly mistaken.

[seabeyond]

17. who is making him a hero? i dont know any individual today i see

as a "hero". so i guess you are off the hook and you too dont have to make young a hero. if.... if.. his song can effect soem people and put a mood in this country, kick ass. i will take whatever we can get to make people think. or would you rather people dont think?

[Poppyseedman]

18. Neil Young is a musician, not an elected official.

What matters most is, does his music contribute to society and does it do it in a positive way. He should be judged on the content of his music.

Besides 90% of what is called music today, at least on the radio, is actual pure unadulterated dog squat. I could clang together pots and pans and make better music.

Dixie chicks come to mind as an example: Rethugs trashed and scorned them for speaking their mind, but always said they loved their music, but hate the message. Sort of the reverse here.

Don't you think?

[Karenina]

20. "My tailor is the only one

who treats me fairly. He measures me anew each time he sees me."

[Zen Democrat]

23. He accepted that award from People for the American Way --

A great organization that was in the forefront of the groups opposing Alito. People For The American Way is a very liberal organization - one that opposed the extension of the Patriot Act this year.

Remember the Patriot Act was passed just 5 or 6 weeks after September 11, 2001, and contained provisions like monitoring foreign students to make sure they didn't overstay their visas, and providing benefits for the families of 9/ll victims. John Conyers even said that nobody read the bill (authored by Michael Chertoff), they just accepted what they were told was in it -- and nobody at the time believed that Bush was planning a civil liberties massacre (except the evil-doers in the WH). There was only one dissenting vote -- Sen. Russ Feingold.

Neil Young has been a hero of mine for many years for rejecting corporate sponsorship of his tours - "This Note's For You" and for the musical coup de grace on Nixon - "Ohio".

[converted_democrat]

29. I don't see Young as a hypocrite..

I don't choose to call people that have become "enlightened" a hypocrite.. If that's the way we operated as a people, we'd never move forward.. It's just like calling a former * supporter a hypocrite for changing his/her position.. Many people that once supported Patriot Act no longer support it.. I applaud these people, I don't call them hypocrites.. I think it really hurts our cause when we blast people that are trying to progress in their views.. I'm not going to give someone a hard time for seeing the light, I'm just thankful they're seeing it..

[ThsMchneKilsFascists]

39. I agree

Neil Young wrote a song called 'Let's Impeach the President'.
Hard to argue against that IMHO.
This Neil Young bashing sounds alot like the repug meme "You're either with us or against us".
In a free society, people have the right to form opinions and also to change those opinions based upon new information and/or further reflection. That's at the heart of the progressive ideology, progress in thinking.
We (meaning anti-fascists) need all the voices we can muster, even if some of them have only recently had the scales removed from their eyes.

[converted_democrat]

46. This is a brilliant statement..

"In a free society, people have the right to form opinions and also to change those opinions based upon new information and/or further reflection. That's at the heart of the progressive ideology, progress in thinking."


Oh, and by the way.. Welcome to DU!!! :hi:

[ThsMchneKilsFascists]

51. Thanks for the warm welcome! n/t

[pat_k]

85. Fascist v Anti-Fascist captures the reality of the conflict far better. .

Repub v Dem

For every abuse, national and international, bushcheney have sought cover in their so-called "theory" of urinary⁽¹⁾ authoriatarian executve power; the fascist fantasy that as long as they claim they are acting to "defend" us, they can violate our laws, commit international crime in our name, and corrupt our institutions to serve themselves.

Members of Congress have a choice. defend American principle and call for the impeachment of bushcheney OR remain silent and submit to fascist principle.

It's about principle, not political expedience, but perhaps members of Congress will allow themselves to see what they must do if we show them that voters will go all out for candidates who are running on impeachment.

To that end:

DU Challenge to keep the
"Be Patriotic! Impeach Bush" billboard up
(Sheeler for U.S. Senate)

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=1011338&mesg_id=1011338

Related:

The Third Man (Providence Journal editorial 23-Apr)

----------------------------
(1) The right to piss down our backs and call it rain.

[mtnsnake]

30. There is nothing anyone can say or do to make me change my opinion of

Neil Young, a rock and roll superstar. I wish there were a thousand more just like him.

[proud2BlibKansan]

31. So I guess you don't support John Kerry or Hillary Clinton or anyone else

in the Senate either, since all but Feingold voted to go to war. :eyes:

[Peter Frank]

33. You can't tolerate a conversion? Even Bush does this. n/t

[flamingpie2500]

37. Seems I have definitely touched a nerve. Yes we have all made mistakes

the Bush administration is number one at this--so let's just forget that a mistake was made and see what the future holds--i know what it holds for me--gonna get high and listen to some DYLAN!

[converted_democrat]

44. You seem to be missing one of the most important points..

"Yes we have all made mistakes the Bush administration is number one at this--"

It isn't just about the mistake, it's about being a big enough person to see the mistake, and change ones view, instead of digging your heals in and never changing.. The * administration has made many mistakes, but they don't admit them.. They just cling to their position, no matter how wrong they are proven to be.. Young held a view, and when shown it was wrong, he changed his view.. It takes a big person to do that.. Young is a big man to change his view.. Too bad the leader of our country isn't as big of man as Young is..

[Berserker]

57. As long as your

kicking Neil Young's ass for making a mistake and believing lies you may as well post something on Woody. In your way of thinking he wrote this on his guitar to sell more records.

[Peter Frank]

65. I have a CD of "After the Gold Rush" you can borrow...

;)

[Cetacea]

86. Dylan was a "Born Again" Christian for a time

Those that believe that all Christianity is like B***co's form should not buy Dylan albums...
That aside, you are trashing an artist who has fought the good fight for 40 years because he, like most of the country, was traumatized by 9/11 and supported what seemed to be a good idea at the time. I never did, but as others have pointed out here already, most democrats did.
A rather poor use of precious bandwidth, I would think.

[Bonobo]

40. Castigate him for changing mind, castigate those who don't?

[onenote]

41. Don't minimize the importance of Neil's new record and other similar acts

For too long after 9/11, anyone who criticized the nation's reaction -- whether it be going to war or passing the Patriot Act or holding detainees incommunicado -- was so savagely attacked that speech was severely chilled, including speech by many artists (albeit not all).

But just as the country is coming around to see that chimpy's policies have damaged this country, artists are again beginning to speak out. It seems that at least once a week a shot it taken at chimpy and his gang on some network drama or sitcom; musicians, ranging from John Prine and Kris Kristofferson to the Rolling STones, the Dixie Chicks, and Neil Young, among others, are beginning to reflect criticism of chimpy's policies in their music.

Whether or not some of these script writers and artists did not speak out before, or even spoke out in support of some of chimpy's policies is really besides the point. It is good...very good...that they are speaking out now. By speaking out they reinforce and influence the views of their audiences..they make it more "mainstream" to be vocal in your opposition...harder to minimize as "fringe" or "anti American" views.

Popular art, whether it be music, movies, tv, can be part of a galvanizing force that helps move the country. If you lived through the 60s and Vietnam, you know exactly what I mean.

Friday night I went to a neighborhood bar to hear a friend's band. The crowd at this bar typically is a mix of veterans and yuppies. In the early days after 9/11, these folks were quite rah-rah for chimpy. But you can sense the change in the wind. For his encore, the lead guitarist did Buffalo Springfield's anti-war classic, "For What Its Worth" -- he changed up the lyrics to make a couple of overt references to chimpy and the crowd -- the same folks that cheered the war a few years ago -- clapped and cheered the new lyrics. And they cheered when the guitarist closed the show, spontaneously, by reprising a Jimi Hendrix style,feedback-laden version of the Star Spangled Banner.

Don't minimize things like Neil's new album. They serve not only to reflect changes that are occurring in the way people think, but also to advance those changes.

onenote

[stillcool]

42. 'Harvest', and 'After the Goldrush'...

...personify my youth. As 'just a songwriter' his creations added flavor and texture to my existence. As far as heros go....my world is chock full of human beings...who are perfectly perfect with all their imperfections. Mirrors are everywhere.

[many a good man]

43. Musicians, poets and artists are crucial to developing social movements

They are instrumental in getting out the message in ways that transcend print, news media, and political oration. Its nice to see we're finally seeing some after all these years.

[Arkansas Granny]

45. Three months after 9-11 Neil Young thought that the Patriot Act

was a good idea "for a short period of time". Since Bush's approval rating at that time was the highest ever recorded for any President, I'm sure that he had lots of company. How many people, even in this group, could have foreseen what Bush would do with the provisions of that act?

[Imagevision]

47. Pink certainly has a way with words, wouldn't you say...

[applegrove]

49. Lots of people supported the patriot act and still support parts of it.

Do you not want the intels to be able to follow the communications of all al Qaeda or terrorist cells? That is the patriot act. And it comes into play outside of the USA without any need for warrants. I don't see how a the world can clean up the mess of terrorism if they leave the internet open to anyone who is evil. I would think, on the whole, we would want to put evil people & groups at a communication dis-advantage in the next millenium.

That being said - of course holding people without trial and then releasing them with no charges should make us week. So too torture.

But these last two things were not known when many people were for the Patriot act.

[Zorra]

50. Not everyone understood how malicious Bu*h and his PNAC

masters were at that time, and it appeared to me that many people were caught up in a deliberately induced nationalistic fervor in the period immediately following 9/11. There are still folks out there that do not understand that the PNAC cabal was instrumental in deliberately allowing the WTC to be attacked, and that they did this in order to bring about public support for a pre-conceived plan for global domination. The adoption of the "Patriot" Act was part of this plan, as was the invasion and occupation of Iraq.

It surprises me, judging from his history and song lyrics, that Neil Young fell for this bullshit, especially after the obvious theft of the 2000 election. But I guess not everyone has the political and historical background, and the time to reflect on the probable patterns of political events that can be projected to unfold from the theft of a Presidential election by fascists.

So I'm willing to cut Neil a little slack on this one, because it seems to me that, judging from some of the philanthropic, environmental, and political works that he has done, his heart really is in a good place.

[lonestarnot]

52. BACK IN MY FAVOR NOW!

[hlthe2b]

53. Ahh, another "ABSOLUTIST..."

I disagree on the Patriot Act, but face it, how many were loudly questioning it (the first time it was passed). I don't recall many of our Dems voting against it--merely arguing that it would be limited in time and scope. That it turned out to be a major fascist power grab, is obvious now.


I don't know how closely you have followed Neil Young's career, message, and politics. But, his pattern is clearly an honorable progressive one. He is a good and honorable man, imo. So, be an absolutist, a purist. I look at the man's work and message in its entirety.

[lonestarnot]

56. Count me as one of those loud mouths with questions the first time around!

[hlthe2b]

59. So was I... that's not the point.

if you read my entire post.....:shrug:

[lonestarnot]

60. I read your entire post, but chose to speak to that portion thank you.

:shrug:

[hlthe2b]

73. I thought you would comment on Neil Young and your feelings

about him--I now see a brief earlier post which seems to suggest you share my feelings--at least to some degree.

[lonestarnot]

75. Neil Young has been one of my favorite artists for about forever now.

He made some mistakes, but I don't think he was every really a repuke. I forgive him. He is back on track!

[notadmblnd]

54. well I prefer to to think that his muddled thinking was due to ignorance

and has since seen the error of his ways. WWJD? forgive him.

[shadowknows69]

55. I actually take Neil's comments

as sarcastic. The statement itself screams absurdity and Neil Young is a little too sharp not to notice the irony in it. Neil has to long of a history writing about and fighting for the right causes for me to chastise him about this. He took on GW's daddy in the album "Freedom"

We got a thousand points of light
For the homeless man
We got a kinder, gentler,
Machine gun hand
We got department stores and toilet paper
Got styrofoam boxes for the ozone layer
Got a man of the people, says keep hope alive
Got fuel to burn, got roads to drive.
-"Rockin in the free world."

[IsIt1984Yet]

58. The 48 Senators who supported the USA PATRIOT Act should be the bigger

issue. THEY are the ones with votes that matter.

[OKNancy]

66. It was 98 of 99 voting

on the one right after 9/11

[IsIt1984Yet]

69. D'oh

:blush:

[derby378]

61. I didn't even know about the "Patriot" Act until 2002...

And I suspect Neil might not have known much about it, himself. He's got two children with MS to care for.

Just remember how America was introduced to the Act to begin with. Stealth legislation of the highest order.

[Pryderi]

62. I guess he's a "flip-flopper" like Kerry, eh?

[sandnsea]

63. Feingold supports 90% of it, as does PFAW

I am so sick of a handful of ranters who think they're standing up for a cause that literally NOBODY else is standing for. PFAW supports parts of the Patriot Act. They wanted to "shape a better bill", not repeal the whole thing. There's absolutely no reason to trash Neil Young for supporting the basic premise of it too.

http://www.pfaw.org/pfaw/general/default.aspx?oid=20220

[incapsulated]

67. Oh, for fuck's sake!

What, did he vote for it and help it become law? :eyes:

Look, a lot of people lost their way after 9/11. They had some strange, paranoid reactions. Neil disappointed me, but he's come back to his senses. It looks like his new CD is going to rip.

He is a musical hero to me. Then and now. I don't confuse the artist with their art. His music has meant an enormous amount to me throughout my life and I thank him for it. He owes me nothing.

[LWolf]

70. Okay.

Of course, the only Democrat in the senate to vote NAY on the Patriot Act in 2001 was Russ Feingold. Marie Landrieu didn't vote at all. All the rest voted "Yea."

http://www.vote-smart.org/issue_keyvote_member.php?vote_id=3110

This, of course, means that you consider the Democratic Senators who have recently found some opposition to GWB to be hypocrites as well, right?

[DS1]

71. YES! HIM AND DENNIS QUAID! UP AGAINST THE WALL!!

:eyes:

[incapsulated]

72. Hey, that's my old desktop wallpaper...

I'm a big Giger fan. What does he think of the Patriot Act, I wonder? :silly:

I still love Dennis Quaid, too, so there. He was brilliant in Wyatt Earp. Plus, he looks like my first love, what can I say?

:loveya:

[Prisoner_Number_Six]

74. Everyone seems to forget he's not even an American

He's Canadian. Who CARES what he says about our country.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

80. If you knew Neil Young, you wouldn't have posted that comment.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

76. Oh, please. Give me a break.

[npincus]

81. Get over it! Go, Neil! Impeach the Motherf*cker!

Can't WAIT for "Living With War".

[Strawman]

82. Criticism, discernment is healthy. Rigid judgementalism is not

We don't need true believers guarding the door to the social justice club.

[spanone]

83. As an artist, Neil could give a rat's ass what anybody thinks.

Look at his forty some year career. He's a artist, not an entertainer.
He's a true icon in this day and age of 'American Idol' parrots.

[suffragette]

84. You can't grow if you aren't willing to look at information and change

your mind based on it.
Looks to me like Neil did just that. All of us make errors, but some "stay the course" no matter how faulty the original assumptions were while others look at the evidence and change their views and their positons. Good for Neil for having the intelligence to do that. Maybe his public shift can help others who were bamboozled through fear into supporting some of the regime's bad policies overcome their embarassment or reluctance to admit they were wrong. They can then join in to work on changing what needs to be changed.