Newsweek: "What happened at Duke?"

[AngryAmish]

"May 1, 2006 issue - Racial tension, class conflict and allegations of sexual violence are perfect ingredients for a media circus. On eBay last week, you could buy T shirts decorated with a cartoonish "South Park" character, posing as a Duke lacrosse player, crudely taunting the prosecutor: MIKE NIFONG S---- A--.

On talk radio, Rush Limbaugh was speculating whether the Rev. Al Sharpton would arrive on the scene to play the Tawana Brawley card after, as Limbaugh put it, "the lacrosse team supposedly, you know, raped some, uh, hos." (Limbaugh later apologized for a "terrible slip of the tongue.") On cable TV, Jon Stewart was making fun of Geraldo Rivera for gravely and fatuously intoning, "It is not always the nuns that get raped. Sometimes it's the strippers that get raped."

This is a long and informative article about the Duke rape case.

[Danieljay]

1. How about we wait til the trial and stop all the armchair speculation? n/t

[Neil Lisst]

9. It's an item of interest to many, and staying informed is purposeful.

It's an item of interest to many. If you don't want to participate in the threads about it, why do you?

[proud2BlibKansan]

68. It's morbid curiosity

and there are so many things we need to be lots more interested in these days (like Divine Strake on June 2) that it gets pretty frustrating seeing all the interest in this case.

The media says they are telling the stories the public wants to hear yet I didn't realize there was a method for requesting particular stories. Do we just pick up the phone and call CBS, CNN, etc and say 'Hey how about no more Duke rape stories? Could you lead off the evening news today with a story about the president's low approval ratings? Thanks!' LOL

[Neil Lisst]

69. It's a personal value judgment- what is or is not important.

To you, this story isn't important, but that's because you think other issues are more important. Most Americans see this story about the rape as being closer to them that the stories you think important. They relate to it in some way, typically by relating to either the dancer or the players accused.

This case is emblematic of the issues which face the young in every college town. This one is in the extreme, of course.

Bottom line is that TV viewers vote with their remote controls, and if they wanted to watch the news you think is worthy, they'd be watching Democracy Today, not Shep Smith or Dan Abrams.

[proud2BlibKansan]

71. And the media drowns us with stories of missing blondes

This Duke story is no different, it is just not a missing blonde.

It is, IMO, a deliberate attempt to keep the 'real news' from being aired. I didn't used to believe this until I started watching faux news once in awhile. They throw these missing blonde stories at their viewers like clockwork. While CNN and MSNBC are telling us about the latest shakeup at the WH, faux is telling us about the rape at Duke. Check it out; you will be amazed at what you see.

[Neil Lisst]

73. I agree there is an element of that, particularly the Holloway case.

But these cases are modern versions of the children's fables of old. Whether Little Red Riding Hood or Snow White, the tale calls for the threat of being grabbed.

I think these cases touch the same nerve as urban legends, which is one reason they gain so much public exposure.

Certainly, Fox tries to use the salacious to distract from hard news stories.

[johnnie]

95. Here is my problem with that

They throw nothing at "us". I don't watch fox and hardly watch the other stations. I find my news in other places. I know next to nothing about missing blonds except what I see continuously on DU.

I think that people who don't want to know what is really going on watch fox "news". I refuse to waste my time even if it is just to see what morons they are.

[proud2BlibKansan]

122. Did you know that the only TV shown to the military in Iraq

is Faux Snooze? 24/7.

So not all of us have a choice.

[begley]

2. Innocent until proven guilty

I think it's important that we remember that. I always go back to the Kobe situation. We have to wait until everything is out.

[blonndee]

3. What about "the Kobe situation"?

We still don't know what happened, and there was a settlement. Everything is not "out" on that. Still, you're right that we don't know everything on this case, either.

[demosincebirth]

12. The monetary settlement says it all.

[blonndee]

14. In what way, exactly? n/t

[demosincebirth]

23. Have you heard of "hush" money?

Kobe Bryant paid her to drop the rape charges. Or do you believe Kobe was innocent?

[okieinpain]

24. I thought they didn't have enough for the criminal trail, and he paid

in the civil suit just to get it over with.

[demosincebirth]

33. You got me thinking now, but I believe they reached

a settlement.


http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/0924041kobea1.html

[blonndee]

39. Of course I have. But the original reply didn't say WHAT

the money "said." Some people think it meant that she was after money all along. Or it could be interpreted as you have, that he paid her off to drop the case. It wasn't clear what "the money says it all" meant.

I don't know what happened, but from what I've read, I tend to think she was telling the truth. JMHO

[mountainvue]

63. You mean that Kobe was

at the very least guilty of adultery?

[oldtime dfl_er]

4. cover story?

Hey, I'm as drawn to a salacious sex and race story as anyone, but in a time when generals are revolting against the Secretary of Defense, dozens of Americans have died in an illegal war, Bush's ratings are in the toilet, Al Gore is emerging as the Johnny Appleseed of the environment, and more, Duke does not deserve to be a cover story.

http://www.cafepress.com/scarebaby/1097640

[WilliamPitt]

5. Nope

The cover story is "No Exit," about how we're never, ever, ever leaving Iraq.

:(

[oldtime dfl_er]

6. WEll, that's good!

When I followed the offered link, it appeared that Duke was on the cover.

[noamnety]

15. I disagree

most of us women have either been the victims of sexual assault or have close friends who have been. Or both. The reason it's a hot issue for many of us is not the particular details in this case, but the way rape victims are treated and tried in general when they are assaulted, and the assumptions our society makes about which rapes are acceptable, and which are not.

Half the people in this country are not safe going to a friend's house, or going for a walk outside alone. When I say not safe, I mean that we might be safe one time, or a hundred times, or a thousand, but the one time it turns out to be unsafe, we are the ones faulted for taking unnecessary risks.

It's a human rights issue, and I will not be quiet about it while someone else tells me to accept the statistics because the generals are revolting against Rumsfeld.

[Pastiche423]

20. It's been over a decade

since I went out alone after dark. I don't believe I will ever feel safe again.

What too many DUers have said about this case, has my PTSD flaring. My disappointment in them has made me question how they would describe being a liberal/progressive.

I realize this should be tried in a case of law, but although some agree, way too many have been trying the woman in public.

It sickens me.

Btw, my rapists were never found. During the six month investigation, I told the lead detective I wanted to go to trail. But if it had happened recently, there is no way I would talk about it here. I was raped and would not like to be raped again on this board.

[noamnety]

22. I saw a list recently of how women live

These are just a couple:

When I see a group of males standing outside a door I walk around them and utilize a different door when possible.
I do not answer my front door when a man comes to my home.
I avoid supermarkets at night when I can. When I can't I must remain on guard when entering or leaving the dark parking lot.
I do not hike alone in the woods or in the parks.

The full list is over 50 things, and, as the writer points out, she could keep going.
http://bitingbeaver.blogspot.com/

Interesting to see how many of these we do, or have done, without thinking it unusual or outrageous. All those restrictions imposed on our lives, for no reason other than we are women.

And like you said, one more could be added to the list - if we are assaulted, we don't talk about it, because to talk about it subjects us to additional abuse.

Men (some men, the men who don't get it) don't like to acknowledge that this happens in our own country. They're comfortable reading stories of strippers being molested, or of Islamic or African or Latino women being molested in their own countries, because they fall into the category of invisible people; those people. They know it's wrong and can be outraged, for a minute, then they move on to important topics like the environment, or the war. They don't want to face the ugly reality that living with restrictions on our movements is the experience of half the people that live in their own country.

[Thirtieschild]

28. Well said

My daughter was one of five victims of a serial rapist When they caught him she was the one they could prove (this was 1987, before D.N.A.) because paint from her door matched paint on a tool found in his trunk. She insisted on going to trial, even though the lead detective, the D.A. and the other victims wanted her to agree to a lesser charge. She said no, pleading to a lesser charge would say that what happened to her wasn't important. He eventually pled guilty to rape and was sentenced to 20 years.

The rape happened in Charlotte, four hours up I-85 from Atlanta, where she grew up. Fifteen years later she got a call from the D.A. in DeKalb County, GA. Although he still lived in Charlotte he'd come to the Atlanta suburbs to rape - he thought that the D.N.A. sample he had to give was for North Carolina only, that no one could trace him if he raped in Georgia. The D.A. wanted her to testify at his trial and this time he was acting as his own lawyer. So - she faced him one more time. She wouldn't tell me what happened at the trial, just that he was found guilty and "I held my own."

It's been 19 years and it's still with her. I didn't suffer the trauma, didn't wake up from a sound sleep and think I was going to die, but it's still with me too.

[okieinpain]

26. I agree, but they should wait until the story is told. this deal with

a piece here, and a piece there is not helping anybody. what if they did'nt rape her, what if she's just pissed off. what if they did rape her, and now everybody is raping her all over again by wondering if she's lying. I say they should shut this story down until the facts come out on both sides. they have plenty to report on.

[noamnety]

38. The same story has already been told

again and again and again for decades. for centuries. ain't nobody listening.

[LostinVA]

58. Rape is not a "salacious sex story -- OMG

[BrklynLiberal]

7. Interesting article about the coverage of this Duke Story

and the entire concept behind the coverge of missing and abused women in this country right now.

http://www.newshounds.us/2006/04/20/why_natalee_holloway_is_lucky_she_is_not_around_to_make_accusations.php

[MADem]

8. It is, in fact, the most informative article I have read on this subject

It describes what is known, what is not known, and what is speculated, in fairly straightforward fashion. It doesn't preach, it doesn't advocate, but it does lay out the available information and provides quotes from some of those involved.

Now it's time to let the legal system grind on.

[Moosepoop]

10. One quibble I have with it

is that throughout the article, the dancers are "women", and the men are "boys". They're not boys. They're men.

[BrownOak]

74. What about all those unfounded declarations

without direct quotes?

[Obamarama]

11. Who CARES? eot

[Neil Lisst]

13. that's a great article.

The photo ID of the players should be thrown out.

You can't show only photos of Lacrosse team players. That's shooting fish in a barrel.

[jazzjunkysue]

16. So far, no one has cleared up the question of the bad ID. So, it might be

as they've reported it: They showed her the lacrosse team photo, and so, like the duck game at the kiddie fair, you can't miss.

No one has disputed this claim, that they only showed her the team photo, making it completely falacious.

(Allow me to say that I have no opinion yet about the accuracy of the accusations, either way.)

I heard a policeman say on air that they should have taken the description of the attacker (something like, 185 pounds, white, beard, blonde,) and showed her 100 photos of men who would meet that description. It would then be relevant if she could pick out her attacker as one of 100 photos. That would be grounds for an indictment.

I think the district attorney should be fired and the charges dropped until someone determines if this was handled properly at all.

The fact that the 2 suspects have alibies means her credibility was shot to hell (which might be why they're taking this route) and so it didn't help the accuser at all.

It will take an investigation to determine if this whole case was bungled on purpose or not. If no one is fired, then you have your answer. It was a cover up. Someone assaulted her, and the whole town helped cover it up.

[Neil Lisst]

17. The article has some important info on pages 6 and 7

It's pretty clear Nifong had almost no chance of winning his race before this happened, and this has given him visibility and air time he cannot buy. I think the case is running on the fumes of his political needs right now.

If he presumed that she did not ingest any drugs on her own, I think he may be presuming the wrong thing. Her prior arrest involved her showing up perfectly sober, dancing a couple of dances, and then being found in the dressing room in a state similar to that found in this matter.

Many dancers get high to dance, and that's just a fact of life.

[TorchTheWitch]

19. They aren't legitimate alibis

The entire timeline hinges totally on the time-stamped photos taken at the party. These time-stamps aren't relevant as photos time-stamps are simple to change. It is entirely possible that these guys did rape the woman and afterward for fear of being caught left to establish what they thought would be a legitimate alibi AS LONG AS they made sure that the time-stamping of the photos taken at the party were changed to reflect they weren't even there when the incident took place.

One thing really bothers me about the alibi of Seglimann, and that is the shear amount of alibi. He has damn near every single documented bit of evidence one could possibly dream up to allegedly place him as somewhere else...

1. Eyewitness - cab driver
2. ATM receipt with relevant time stamp
3. ATM video with relevant time-stamp that would show the face of the alleged accused
4. Phone calls - relevant time-stamped phone records

As for Finnerty's alibi... so far the only thing I've seen about that is his attorney claiming he wasn't there. It's certainly possible that I just haven't come across anything that says anything more about his alleged alibi than the fact that his attorney says he has one. In any case it doesn't matter since the timeing that the defense is using for the alleged incident is the time-stamped party photos that are easily changed.

The defense is desperately trying to establish that the time-stamped photos taken at the party are legitimate when they are not.

[Neil Lisst]

25. Seligman's is. Don't know about the other.

The timing on the photos is confirmed by the time on a watch shown in the photos, as well as other evidence from all the sources, which agree on when the dancing began.

Those photos are coming into evidence. Bet on it.

Unless there's DNA from Seligman, he's probably walking. His timeline is thoroughly covered, even without the photos, and the lack of any of his DNA on her makes her ID very suspect.

[TorchTheWitch]

42. A WATCH?

You are aware that it's a relatively simple thing to change the time on a watch?

There is no agreement from all the sources of what time the dancing began. Just because the timing put forth by the defense hasn't been disputed by anyone that we know of other than Roberts (and that is one source that disagrees with the timing and has publically said so) doesn't mean that all the sources agree.

Even in this article just as all the others I've read mention the time-line is that of the defense... I'd like to see any article that says this time-line is even agreed upon by the prosecution much less all the sources. We don't even know who all the sources ARE.

I have no doubt that the photos will be part of the evidence but absolutely the time-stamping is going to be disputed and rightfully so.

[Neil Lisst]

48. yes, it's a circular thing with a face and hands that move around

People wear them.

If one is in photos taken at the party, the time on the watch can be compared to the time on the photo. YOU may not believe it, but 12 jurors will.

[TorchTheWitch]

55. Whoopie

So they didn't change the time-stamp on that photo since it conveniently shows a close-up of a watch that can be seen to show what time it is that would conveniently show the same time on the time-stamp of that particular photo. With my camera, which is certainly no paragon of wonder, I can change the time-stamp for every single photo to whatever I want.

I'd be interested to see this photo with the watch. What does it show? Does it show a close-up of a watch where the time can clearly be seen with other happenings documented in the photo that make it clear at what point in the series that photo falls? Or could it be that this photo could have been taken at any time in the course of the party even before or after the strippers were there and put into the series out of sequence to the real course of events at the most convenient point to help determine the desired time-line. Or could it have been photoshopped the same way I photoshop my photos?... I regularly load my photos onto my computer edit out things appearing in the photos I don't want seen with Paint Shop Pro, load them back onto the camera replacing the originals, and no one would ever know. Changing the hands on a watch to depict a certain time would be cakework to photoshop. It would be even easier to have the guy with the watch change the time to what you want before taking the photo.

Actually, I would be interested in seeing ANY article that states there is a photo with a time-stamp that matches the time of a watch in the photo regarding this case, because after doing a search the ONLY place this is mentioned is on a forum where someone merely made this claim with absolutely nothing to back it up... http://forums.ibsys.com/viewmessages.cfm?sitekey=tri&Forum=520&Topic=13601 I sincerely hope that you don't use unsubstantiated claims from an unknown poster on a forum who gives no evidence of the legitimacy of their claim as anything remotely resembling fact.

[Neil Lisst]

56. fortunately, experts can opine on the matters which you discuss

They will testify whether the photos are in original order, whether they've been tampered with in any way.

You might be able to photoshop, but you can't fool an expert. The whole notion that the photos have been altered to support a bogus timeline is really reaching. I feel certain the defense attorneys would have had the photos checked by an expert before relying on them.

As for the photos, they'll show whatever they show, but if the experts on photos say they're legit, then they will have great weight before the jury.

[LostinVA]

59. There's also a 20-minute gap in the photos

Isn't that interesting... I think it's 1203-1225.

[Neil Lisst]

70. That seems to confirm the dancers were in the bathroom.

... for 20 minutes

Kim Roberts and the players all put both dancers in the bathroom at 12:03 AM.

[BrownOak]

77. Here you go

http://abclocal.go.com/wtvd/story?section=local&id=4091290

The defense showed the photos to WTVD, a local station in Durham. The article states: Pictures of a wristwatch magnified for clarity correspond with the time on the photos.

Now it's possible that the watch has been manipulated with Photoshop or some other program and then showed it to the reporter, but that will be evident upon a more detailed evaluation.

There's another article out there that I've read that states the defense will have an "expert" testify to the sequence of pictures but that he cannot testify to the time of the pictures. That is, he can tell you for sure if you're viewing them in order, but he can't corroborate the time.

However, if the time stamp on one photo matches the watch in that photo, and you can tell if the time stamp has been manipulated after the fact, then you can reasonably assume the time stamp on all the photos are accurate. I guess it's possible that the player's watch could have been set ahead in the photo, but that would seem to be a pretty measure indicating premeditation. From what I understand, the time stamps are supposedly generated by the metafile, and not the setting on the camera so simply changing the camera time and date won't change the date in the metafile, but I'll admit to not knowing much in that arena.

[jberryhill]

86. You are correct

The EXIF data is embedded when the picture is taken. If you change the time on the camera, the EXIF data stays the same in the previously-taken photo.

Photoshop alterations of the original file from the camera are easily detected.

But, yeah, a bunch of drunk guys at a party are messing with watches and camera settings during a rape. Most people don't even know about EXIF data in digital camera files.

Changing the time on your cell phone camera is pretty easy once you hack your way into the GPS satellite timing system...

[chookie]

50. Regarding Finnerty

His alibi is that he was at a Mexican restaurant during the timeline. Police investigation will reveal whether this claim can be corroborated or not to some varying degree of certainty.

Changing the subject a bit, if you don't mind: the investigation of the crime appears to be very thorough. The accuser, in addition to the examination by the highly qualified nurse, was given a blood test to determine her blood alcohol level and detect if date rape drugs, such as roofies or GHB are present. This will be important evidence. A forensic photographer also documented the evidence of injuries -- these photos may also provide important evidence.

It is encouraging for victims of rape that scientists have devised a battery of forensic tests to incriminate their attackers. Here's hoping that techniques become ever more sophisticated.

[Neil Lisst]

53. whether his alibi pans out remains to be seen

Rape investigation is advanced, but not dispositive unless it exonerates someone. It can confirm she had bruises, but not whether she got them in a rape.

Her behaviors and injuries are consistent with that of someone who is high. Since there is a criminal case confirming she has evidenced the same symptoms shortly after she began a dancing gig, that prior conduct suggests she gets high before she dances. Perhaps she takes something that takes a few minutes to kick in and show outward symptoms.

[mountainvue]

65. Rita Cosby shot the cabbie's story

full of holes last night on MSNBC. In fact, she straight up said he changed his story and asked him point blank if he had taken money from Seligmann or his legal team. The cabbie denied it.

[BrownOak]

75. I didn't see that but

If they have the call from Silegmann's cell phone at 12:14 corresponding to a call on the cabbie's cell phone at 12:14, and if you have an ATM receipt from a location that's 5 minutes away by car stamped at 12:24, don't the odds seem really strong that Silegmann was out of there by 12:19 and that it was the cabbie who took him?

[mountainvue]

81. I was under the impression that there was no

record showing that Seligmann had called the cabbie. The cabbie had the times all wrong anyway. Who's to say who is using a cell phone or an ATM card? I think the only definitive evidence of his whereabouts that evening would be him reentering his dorm at 12:46.

[jberryhill]

115. Who's to say who is using a cell phone or an ATM card?

1. The person, answering machine, or voice mail system which was called from the cell phone.

2. The ATM camera. They take pictures of the person using them.

So, yes, Seligman is toast if he said, "Hey, I'm busy with a rape here. Could you please take my cell phone and make some calls, and here's my ATM card, the PIN is 7777. I'm going to be at this for another 20 minutes or so, so go out and withdraw some money."

"Oh, and bring me back the receipt, but don't leave your prints on it."

If that's what he did, then he will certainly be convicted.

[Lindacooks]

90. No, all you have is that SOMEONE used his cell phone

and the ATM. Unless there's a time stamped pic of Silegmann using the ATM at that exact minute, anybody else could have used the phone and the machine. As I've said before, unless the phone and ATM card were surgically attached to the guy, anybody else could have used it.

[jberryhill]

93. ATM's take pictures

Of course there is a time-stamped picture of whomever used the ATM. Your picture is taken every time you use one. What makes you think there WOULDN'T be a time stamped picture of whomever used the ATM?

And if "someone" used his cell phone, they used it to call someone else - who might have very well spoken with the person using the cell phone.

You might recall the ATM video of the Ryder truck on its way to the federal building in Oklahoma City.

The ATM picture is a no-brainer:
http://www.nbc4.com/news/3625881/detail.html

[Lindacooks]

97. Then where are the pictures of the student?

If it's such a 'no brainer'.

[jberryhill]

99. You may find this hard to believe...

...but it's not as if the evidence in this case is being released in a continuous stream via the news media.

I would presume, in answer to your question, that the pictures are in possession of the bank, and that the backup media from that nights operation of the ATM has already been subpoenaed. The bank would release it in response to a subpoena but, sadly, not to me.

The point is that IF someone used Seligman's ATM card, THEN there is most definitely a picture of that person using the ATM with a quite reliable time record.

For the record here, I do not know Seligman's debit card number either.

Also IF Seligman is lying about using the ATM, then he will be proven to be lying.

[Lindacooks]

100. Uh huh.

Like the defense attorneys wouldn't have that picture displayed all over the media if it was true.

[jberryhill]

112. They may not have it either.

I gather you've never subpoenaed anything from a bank.

But you are missing the point. If Seligman DIDN'T use an ATM, then he is lying.

It is an exceedingly simple proposition to prove or disprove, given that ATM's take pictures of the people who use them.

Did he use an ATM? I have no flipping idea. But your question was about needing a picture of the ATM to prove it. Well, yes, ATM's take pictures.

A cell phone call also buys you another witness - the person who took the call. Better yet if it was another cell phone with voice mail controlled by the phone company.

Cell phone call records also indicate the location from which the phone was used.

[fishnfla]

18. This guy Nifong, I dont know

I dont like the political undertones in this article--pandering for votes in an election.

I fear we may never know the truth, or get justice, either way.

[LostinVA]

60. Pandering for WHOSE votes? Strippers?

I don't think Durham has a few thousand of them.

[BrownOak]

78. You don't think this is an issue that will

resonate within the Black community, which accounts for likely 40-50% of registered Democrats?

[lies and propaganda]

21. men dont seem to care; sepecially repug

and because she is astripper; she fucking asked for it! she probaly wanted it!

But a group of rich (im assuming to play lacrosse at Duke)white boys who are gang raping a black girl would NEVER pout on rubbers to deflect dna eveidence, of course not.

[Pavulon]

27. Conjecture

Condoms leave evidence of use. Chemical evidence. It will be interesting to watch this fall apart in trial. Bad lineup, etc.

Has there been confirmation of sex?
The woman came from an escort service, could there have been a disagreement on services?
Why is the race of anyone relevant? (other then press time)


There is NO WAY for anyone to have any idea what really happened. The fact this was not gagged the next day is a shame.

[Neil Lisst]

30. this whole matter smells of business deal gone bad

Women show up. The crowd is larger and more rowdy than they expected. There were crude remarks said that caused one or both women to go into the bathroom and lock themselves inside.

I have not seen when or why they split up, with one going out to the car while one remained. It would be interesting to know why Ms. Roberts left and went out to the car, and why the accuser remained behind.

I'm sure there was a discussion had about how much the players were supposed to get for $800, and if they were expecting a two hour show, there was likely conflict about how much the dancers should get for the little dancing they did.

I believe these guys are jackasses, probably some more than others, and I believe they might have done something that was bad or illegal, if not both. But the evidence thus far suggests big pieces of her story do not fit.

[Yupster]

35. A two hour show?

Do strippers really put on two hour shows?

[Neil Lisst]

44. not if the only thing they're doing is stripping and leaving

but who knows?

I'm simply reporting that I read it in an article today.

[TorchTheWitch]

47. typically yes

There is very little money in just dancing/stripping and that's it. It used to be that way, but with agencies taking such a big cut, lack of tips for just dancing and the advent of lap dancing, yes, two hour or longer shows are very common and actually more probable. I won't do outcall shows because of what they've typically degenerated to and what people now generally expect outcall strippers to do.

Outcall strippers that don't engage in sex acts with the guests will do lap dances for the guests in which she gets to keep all the money (possibly with a small percentage given to the security guy if there is one). Many of them will also do girl/girl shows that involve sex acts between the strippers which is either simulated or real to generate heavy tipping and promote lap dancing afterward. Very often these girl/girl shows will involve toys.

As long as the money is still flowing, the strippers aren't going to be anxious to leave if the guests are under control and they have no other gig to go to (but typically, outcall strippers don't book more than one gig a night).

$400 per stripper for a two hour show is peanuts. In club dancing, I get paid $200 for a half hour of my time in the VIP room where the customer has to keep his hands off me, and generally speaking, I don't really do much of anything but be nearly naked and talk/listen. It can be incredibly boring. I actually have one customer who regularly buys out my whole shift (meaning he spends at least 4 hours with me in VIP paying $200 per half hour) and all we do is sit on a comfy couch and talk... it's so boring that I've actually dozed off on him a couple of times (oddly enough, he was thrilled by that... go figure).

[jazzjunkysue]

49. "I won't do outcall shows because of what they've typically degenerated to

"I won't do outcall shows because of what they've typically degenerated to and what people now generally expect outcall strippers to do."

Ok. Thankyou for this plain honest information. I respect how you're handling your job. You're being responsible in this profession. You're taking care of yourself, as well you should. You mention a security guy. This has been my argument about this case all along. Why on earth did these two go into this house without security?

Now, I did not say that they deserved to be assaulted, but honestly, your sentence said it:"what people now generally expect outcall strippers to do." These two women were not children. The accuser is a veteran and has been in prison. It's not going to be easy to convince a jury that these two women didn't know "what people now generally expect outcall strippers to do."

My argument is that even if the one or two college boys who called the agency "knew" the limits of their contract with these dancers, the women were totally foolish to assume that the other 38 drunken college boys were clear on that point. The women are the pros. The women should have known that the rest of the boys would assume that there was more involved in the contract. They were drunk, and so far no one has reported that there was another girl at the party. 40 drunken college boys alone in a house? Is this really so hard to predict? How do you call it a party if there are no girls there? The fact that there were no girls there when they walked in should have caused them to turn around and walk right out before they got the boys all worked up. And let's be clear: Getting the boys all worked up is the point. It's the only point. They're not painters or sculpters, for goodness sake.

That's why a conviction is a long shot: They should have known better and never gone in there without security. If they were legitimate "dancers," they'd have had security and no one would have been assaulted.

Even if the accuser manages to exact a few years of prison time for even one of the boys, I doubt it will seem like it was worth it after everything the trial put her through.

[chookie]

51. My understanding is...

...that the accuser was attempting to retrieve her belongings from which she had been parted. She is shown on the back porch at 12:31-- locked out, I believe, going through a small bag (makeup case? ) but wearing only one shoe. Her costume is intact. She ended up leaving her one shoe and her purse behind, which were recovered by police when they investigated the crime at the place in which the incident occured.

[LostinVA]

61. The woman was raped

Per the SANE's medical exam. Not sex, injuries consistent with rape. Condoms do not always leave evidence. There is no DNA evidence in 70% of rape investigations. The race is very relevant when the dancers were called niggers, told their granddaddies picked cotton that made their shirts, etc. Racial slurs were also heard by independent third-party witnesses. The players made the interaction racial, not the strippers or the media or us.

You've already made your judgment, apparently, saying it will fall apart in court. How do you know this? All we know is what the Defense is saying nd what the second dancer has said publicly.

I don't know who the rapists are, but I know she WAS raped. She is a victim, and should be treated as such, regardless of the facts of anything else.

[BrownOak]

79. DNA Evidence

There is no DNA evidence in 70% of rape investigations.

The problem with that statistic is that it incorporates a wide number of types of rape cases. A more meaningful number would be the types of rape cases that fit this profile; rape cases where there were three alleged assailants, rape cases where the location is specifically identified, and most importantly, rape cases where the alleged victim is examined within 3 hours by a trained SANE program.

There's anecdotal evidence that would show those numbers to be significantly higher. For example, a report done by DNAResource.com cites a story published in The Advocate, of Baton Rouge reporting the New Orleans hospital's chief executive officer said the nurse examiners have greatly improved the recovery of DNA evidence - from only about 10 percent of rape cases at one time to about 50 percent now. (http://www.dnaresource.com/04-232004%20Summary.pdf)

Additionally, the DOJ funded "National Forensic DNA Study Report" states that large law enforcement agencies reported a slightly higher estimate of the proportion of rape cases that are likely to contain DNA evidence, where 53 percent of large agencies estimated that between 75-100 percent of rape cases are likely to contain DNA evidence relative to 47 percent of all other law enforcement agencies. (http://www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles1/nij/grants/203970.pdf) Although that report makes my head hurt - 53% estimate that between 75-100% of cases have evidence. I'm not really sure what the actual number would be, but it seems that the majority of these law enforcement agencies peg it a lot higher than 30%.

[jberryhill]

87. Did You Notice This Above...

...DU's expert stripping witness said:

"Very often these girl/girl shows will involve toys."

It makes one wonder whether this one did.

She is being treated as a victim. The question here is a victim of whom? In case you didn't notice, two people have been arrested and charged. In what way is this not treating her as a victim?

[Neil Lisst]

29. Did they put condoms on their heads, hands, and arms, too?

Because that is what they'd need to do in order to beat, strangle, wrestle and rape vaginally, anally, and orally for 30 minutes.

It's difficult to imagine a way all that could happen without any of their DNA getting on her - no saliva, no blood, no skin, no semen.

I do not think a jury of 12 will convict, given that fact.

[azurnoir]

31. Are you suggesting

that swab every square inch of her body? The lack of any DNA of any sort is not surprising. In a rape kit exam usually only the vagina and rectum (if applicable) are swabbed. The mouth is not because saliva is constantly rinsing that area and it is not likely anything would be left. As one poster pointed out there was DNA under her fingernails (they were broken off and found exactly where she said they would be) and the results for that won't be back till the coming week. They are also retesting the DNA of the 46 players I believe but have not read because there was an unusually long time between when the originals were collected and when they arrived at the lab, I learned this watching a video about the event on CNN.com. There was a local reporter who said something about this- the CNN person mentioned that the DNA results were taking an unusual amount of time and she replied that they had not arrived at the lab until the previous week and then said "I don't know what happened there"

[Neil Lisst]

32. I'm suggesting exactly what I said, exactly what has been reported.

You're free to believe the DA can have a second set of tests done, but he's already screwed on DNA evidence, because it was the STATE lab that did the first work.

She had some DNA on her, but it wasn't any of the players.

It's the DA's case to prove. If he finds no player DNA on her, he's the guy who has to explain it, not me, and if the best he can do is your argument (did you expect us to swab her whole body?), he'd better fold.

[azurnoir]

34. First off

I what I was suggesting had nothing to do with where the samples were tested, the point was that there was an unusually long time between when they were collected and when they arrived at the state lab.
As far as they didn't swab her whole I can tell you from personal and professional experience that is not what is done on a rape work-up. What I did leave out is they will also comb through the victims pubic hair for evidence, however this women was an exotic dancer and almost certainly shaved her pubic hair. Any skin surface DNA found would be tossed out by even the hack defense attorney she was in same house and regardless of whether or not she was raped she most likely had some physical contact with the players ie skin, or other particles would be in the air or on even inanimate objects in the house

[Neil Lisst]

36. First off

You don't know what they did or didn't do. You're speculating, and at best, offering anecdotal evidence based upon your personal experience or information.

There is no evidence any of the players had sex with her, except her picking them out of a defective line-up. That pick may have to be excluded, which leaves ... nada.

If the case lacks good evidence, and so far it does, DA loses.

[azurnoir]

41. You are right

the evidence that is public is inconclusive. I'll take your statement that there is no evidence she had sex with any of the players a step further - there s no evidence she had sex with anyone- the DNA that was found was hers. What the defense team has accomplished here is two or more things they have successfully conflated DNA and semen and more importantly there will be a change of venue if any of the players go to trial, because any attorney would say that a fair trial in Durham would be impossible. It should be noted that Nifong will not be the presiding prosecutor in that case.











edited for spelling

[chookie]

52. Even if she does not personally have pubic hair...

...it is possible that pubic hairs of the attackers may be found on her body or clothing, as they are routinely shed by their hosts. Unless the attackers were wearing pubic hair nets....

[Neil Lisst]

54. that's why I think that given the description of the rape ...

it's difficult to imagine it happening with no hair of any kind moving from them to her, to her belongings.

[AngryAmish]

57. Or a merkin

[azurnoir]

62. This would be true if

she was fully clothed, but obviously she wasn't. This could be written off as contamination due to other then physical contact.The circumstances make any evidence found on her rather then in her arguable. What makes the fingernails signifigant is that they were found were she said they would be per her story and it's hard to get something under your nails without contact.

[Neil Lisst]

66. there was DNA on her, just none of it belonging to the players.

they don't know whose DNA it is

[Neil Lisst]

67. do the Amish still make those by hand?

merkins, I mean

What, with corn silks, maybe?

----------------------------

fade to Spizshak Commercial

Honey! I can't find the merkin! Do you know where it is?!

Has this happened to you?!

[mountainvue]

84. How did her DNA get on the broomstick? n/t

[Neil Lisst]

89. who said her DNA was on the broom?

[BrownOak]

96. Where are you getting this?**

[jberryhill]

98. Based on other comments...

"She had some DNA on her, but it wasn't any of the players."

It's interesting that there was one person at the party whose DNA has NOT been tested.

The other stripper.

[mountainvue]

83. They didn't need "rubbers."

They used a broomstick.

[jberryhill]

91. Then why were DNA samples taken from the players?

If they used a broomstick, what was the point of taking the DNA samples from the players?

[SoCalDem]

37. What happened at Duke?

A bunch of rich kids hired a couple of strippers, got drunk, were obnoxious, and this time the females involved went to the police.

This same scenario plays out (and has, FOREVER) in thousands of fraternity houses every weekend. Most of the time, the strippers collect their money, and go home..The guys sleep it off the next day, and plan their next "party".


obladi oblada

[NaturalHigh]

40. I'm sure you're right...

but none of the above is rape. Being obnoxious is not against the law. Neither is hiring strippers. Getting drunk is only illegal if you're underage, and even then it's a misdemeanor.

[SoCalDem]

43. There are degrees of "obnoxious"..and there have been rapes

at parties since there has been college. Most of the time, no one reports it. Once it's reported, the whole thing changes and people start lying.

I'm not saying it's right..just that that's the way it is.

[NaturalHigh]

45. Again, you're absolutely right...

but I've seen nothing to make me believe that anyone was raped at the (Duke Lacrosse) party in question.

[azurnoir]

46. I read that

at least 1 in 7 women is raped whilein collage. There is another factor here there are different degree's of rape in my state there are 4 with with 1 being the "stranger jumps out of the bushes" and 4 being the victim was too inebriated to consent or decline anything, this also includes date rape drugs the other 2 have to do with the victims age and/or mental capacity

[iconoclastNYC]

64. This is a local story. It affects almost nobody.

It's a distraction in the mode of Chanda Levy, OJ, et al. I'm so sick of it.

Jerry Springer covers it and it makes me want to scream.

[proud2BlibKansan]

72. I agree

How can this be more important than Divine Strake on June 2???

[marions ghost]

76. well if youre watching

Jerry Springer why should you care?

If you watch Rita Cosby why should you care? If you watch CNN and they update you on it too much, why do you watch CNN? (I'm not sure what FOX is doing with it...it wouldn't surprise me if they're not playing it up, for a change. Anybody know?)

IT'S NOT THE STORY itself that should not be aired, it's that the media overdoes it. Not helpful to confuse the two. These kinds of high visibility cases have impact on local issues. I am not in favor of the overkill in the media, but I think the story in itself IS newsworthy.

[iconoclastNYC]

121. I was listening to the RADIO SHOW

Thank you very much.

[WorseBeforeBetter]

116. I agree. And after Corporate Media has milked every last...

sordid detail out of it, then what? On to the next sordid story, with Durham left in its wake. No good will come from this. No good came from the insane coverage of OJ, Chandra Levy, Janet Jackson's left (or was it right?) breast; hell, even Monica (Rs may beg to differ with me on that one). I'd be OK with a reasonable amount of coverage if there may be, say, some progress in resolving the race-related tensions in Durham. Or improved relations between locals and some of the privileged pukes who attend elite universities. Or an examination as to why many young women (of any color) feel the need to strip (thus putting themselves in dangerous situations) to pay their college tuitions. Or why so many college students seem so aggressive/violent these days. Don't mean to sound like Archie Bunker, but we drank (and drank and drank...) but never got violent/destructive. Where is this coming from?

[mountainvue]

80. The victim's father was just

interviewed on MSNBC. According to him, they used a broomstick on her and forced her to give them oral sex.

[BrownOak]

82. Interesting...

It would be interesting to know when the broomstick allegation came up. Did it come up before or after the DNA tests came back inconclusive?

[mountainvue]

85. Again, how did her DNA get on the broomstick? n/t

[jberryhill]

88. Reply #47

"Many of them will also do girl/girl shows that involve sex acts between the strippers which is either simulated or real to generate heavy tipping and promote lap dancing afterward. Very often these girl/girl shows will involve toys."

One of the photographs shown to reporters has been described by the reporters as showing one of the strippers "standing over" the victim, who is lying on the floor.

[BrownOak]

92. You're missing the point

To the best of my knowledge, they didn't test the broomstick for DNA evidence. So the question is, if this broomstick allegation was part of the original statement, why didn't the police seize it in the search warrant? If it wasn't part of the original allegation, when did it come up?

[Neil Lisst]

94. it sounds like a new wrinkle to explain no player DNA

otherwise, it was have been part of the search warrant

[rodeodance]

101. The woman claims she was raped with a broom. See this thread.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=1025820&mesg_id=1025820

[jberryhill]

104. Then why was there no broom in the search warrant?

More correctly, "her father has told MSNBC it was a broom".

If she had been claiming a broom was used, then even the dullest investigator might have thought to have looked for a broom in the search warrant.

But here we have a claim that DNA was found on the broom that nobody was looking for, and which nobody seized, and the question is where was THAT reported.

[rodeodance]

109. well, if the broom was used, it would be the woman's DNA (that is-if

they have the broom)---which seems to be mystery to me.

[jberryhill]

113. I don't think you understand the point.

If a broom was used, then the search warrant would have mentioned they were looking for a broom.

Yes, they would want to find a broom and show that it had her DNA on it. That would be very important evidence.

The search warrant listed a number of things. A broom was not among them.

Why do you suppose the police were not looking for a broom, if she had told them a broom was used?

Why do you suppose they were looking at the players' DNA, if she had told the police a broom was used?

Are the police in Durham some sort of investigative nitwits?

[mountainvue]

114. The female guest on the MSNBC panel

mentioned DNA on the broom.

[jberryhill]

118. Was she mentioning a specific finding?

...or was it in the context of a hypothetical? i.e. IF a broom was used, then one would be able to find evidence of her DNA on the broom.

Neil posted a link to the search warrant, which listed a number of things they were looking for. A broom was not listed. So, if the police didn't have instructions to seize a broom, then it is hard to understand how DNA was found on one.

The other problem is that the prosecutor has charged the accused with rape. Under NC law "rape" requires vaginal intercourse.

Make no mistake, if an object is used, then it is a serious crime under NC law, but it is not rape. The prosecutor's job is to get a conviction of the crime charged. Saying "they used a broom" means that this prosecutor doesn't even know what crime took place.

[Neil Lisst]

120. according to her dad, that's what HE just learned, but that's not

the story she told police

[jberryhill]

102. Oh, I get that...

...having now Googled the broomstick to death.

I'm relatively new, and didn't realize it was common practice to engage in the discussion on the basis of facts that haven't been reported anywhere.

My question was more along the lines of "if that was the story, then why test the players for DNA?"

[rodeodance]

107. Rita Cosby did an interview with father tonight---Breaking?

[rodeodance]

105. msnbc Rita Cosby did not seem to know--tonight.

[rodeodance]

103. I heard that.

[onenote]

106. the indictment indicates she claimed vaginal intercourse

The indictments charged the suspects with three offenses: kidnapping, first degree rape, and first degree sexual offense. On the one hand, the first degree sexual offense charge would cover a forcible penetration of her vagina or anus by a broom, or it could refer to forcible oral sex. However, the rape charge by definition involves forced vaginal intercourse. If she is now claiming that there was no vaginal intercourse, there could be a problem for the prosecution since they presumably they wouldn't have sought a rape indictment unless she had told them she forced to engage in vaginal intercourse.

onenote

on edit: the fact that the search warrant didn't specify that they were looking for a broom, and didn't indicate that broom had be seized would seem to suggest that her story now (or her father's version of her story) is not consistent with what she told the authorities.

[rodeodance]

108. legal definitin of rape can be any oriface--not necessary vagina.

.....However, the rape charge by definition involves forced vaginal intercourse. If she is now claiming that there was no vaginal intercourse, there could be a problem for the prosecution since they presumably they wouldn't have sought a rape indictment unless she had told them she forced to engage in vaginal intercourse.

[onenote]

110. North Carolina law very specific about rape -- only vaginal intercourse

In North Carolina, rape is specifically defined as and limited to forced vaginal intercourse, while forced anal sex, oral sex, and penetration by any object are defined as a separate offense.

http://www.ncleg.net/EnactedLegislation/Statutes/HTML/BySection/Chapter_14/GS_14-27.2.html

http://www.ncleg.net/EnactedLegislation/Statutes/HTML/BySection/Chapter_14/GS_14-27.1.html

http://www.ncleg.net/EnactedLegislation/Statutes/HTML/BySection/Chapter_14/GS_14-27.4.html

I should have posted these references in my original post.

onenote

edited to remove snarky title and comment

[jberryhill]

111. Not In North Carolina

Criminal statutes are very specific. In North Carolina, this is the definition of rape:
http://www.ncsu.edu/police/Information/NCLaw.html

First Degree Rape (14-27.2)

A person is guilty of rape in the first degree if the person engages in vaginal intercourse:

1. With a victim who is a child under the age of 13 years and the defendant is at least 12 years old and is at least four years older than the victim; or
2. With another person by force and against the will of the other person, and:

a. Employs or displays a dangerous or deadly weapon ... ; or
b. Inflicts serious ... injury ...; or
c. The person commits the offense aided or abetted by one or more other persons.

Classification: Class B1 Felony (40 years and/or fine)

Second degree also requires vaginal intercourse (as defined in the definitions section).

If it was a broomstick, and if serious injury was inflicted, you are looking at what NC calls "First Degree Sexual Offense" not "Rape".

If no serious injury was inflicted, you are looking at "Second Degree Sexual Offense".

The prosecutor has made a rape charge in this case. I'll bet he knows North Carolina better than either of us do.

[davekriss]

117. Given...

...Iraq, Afghanistan, global warming, peak oil, US Patriot Act, contingency contracts for detention centers on U.S. soil, Guantanamo, Abu Ghraib, renditions, Gonzo-boy declaring torture is OK, $2 trillion in two tax cuts mostly for the top 0.1% (Bush's Base), offshoring and insourcing, the Medicare drug swindle, elimination of environmental and occupational safety regulations, Ken Lay still walks free, gas at $2.99 and rising, Huppert's Peak, the "carpets of gold or carpet bombing" ultimatum, stealth plans to raid the social security trust fund, planned further reduction in taxes for the top 0.1%, aluminum tubes, yellow cake, and it was much much more than "16 words", the outing of Valerie Plame, the gagging of Sibel Edmunds, LIHOP/MIHOP on 9-11 --- given all that, except for those directly impacted, why is the major media talking about common criminal events, this time on Duke campus?

(O, wait, I forgot, the Michael Jackson trials, his sister's bare breast, false terror alerts -- standard operating procedure to take us off the real and acutely serious problems we face with Bushboy at the helm and Republicans in power...)

[jberryhill]

119. Given...

HBO, Showtime, E, The Golf Channel, and all of the other things on TV, you surely can't expect the news networks to compete on the basis of those things.

This is an interactive mystery show.