Beginning to fear a slide into nihilism...

[Katherine Brengle]

Okay, to preface--this is NOT one of those obnoxious "Help me, I need to know the answers to these blatantly right-wing questions for a school project" type threads. I just had a weird discussion with a good friend last night, and I am having genuine trouble reconciling my long-held beliefs with what he had to say. (I am going to paraphrase here.)

The earth has been here for a very, very long time. The composition of both the surface and the atmosphere have changed drastically since the beginning of the planet's existence. Global warming IS being caused by human activity, but even if humans succeed in making the planet uninhabitable for human life, or any other life as we know it, the earth will remain, and will rebuild itself in another cycle, as it has before.

Okay, so I took that in, and I came to the following conclusion: if the earth will always remain, then the desire to preserve it is basically selfish. We don't really want to preserve the planet--we want to stagnate the planet in order to maintain its ability to sustain human life.

Now, on the flip-side, I don't want my daughter to die of exposure or skin cancer or in some avoidable natural disaster or anything like that, BUT... is it really my place to try to manipulate the evolution of the planet?

???

I was so f*ed up about this last night that I couldn't sleep...

[bedpanartist]

1. eat, drink, and be merry

and oh yeah, be the best person you can be. After that, don't worry so much. We're all compost in the end anyway.

[trof]

2. Well, the dirt ball will be here.

At least until the sun burns out in a few brazillian years, or whatever.
Then I guess it'll be an ice ball.
I see nothing "wrong" with trying to keep it habitable for humans.
If the dinosaurs had been smart enough and able to keep it habitable for them, I'm sure they would have done so.

I don't think of it as "stagnation".

[dailykoff]

3. That sounds like an excuse to overfish, overforest,

pollute the water, pollute the air, drop nukes, and blow depleted uranium and asbestos all over the planet so a few fat slobs can build a few more mcmansions in Houston and Virginia.

[BillZBubb]

4. The fallacy of induction...

"...the earth will remain, and will rebuild itself in another cycle, as it has before."

There is no guarantee the earth will rebuild itself. Certainly if we make it untenable for human life there is almost no chance human life will evolve again. And intelligent life of any kind is also unlikely. If we destroy all life, it is highly unlikely that life will evolve again. As best we know the conditions enabling the beginning of life were very specific to the Earth's early volatile stage. That won't return.

In fact if we create a worst case runaway greenhouse situation, the most likely outcome is that all life will be permanently gone.

Here's a little example of the problem with induction: Every day farmer Brown's wife came into the yard and fed the chickens. The latest batch of little chicks quickly learned to run to her to get some feed. They did so for some time. After all, everytime she came, they got fed. Therefore, the chicks knew that if they ran to her in the morning they'd get fed. It had always been that way. The chicks grew into adults. One Sunday morning, farmer Brown's wife came as usual. The chickens ran to her for food. She grabbed one by the neck, pulled an axe from behind her back, and...

You get the idea.

[readmoreoften]

29. READ amBUSH's POST!

Sorry to yell.

Yes, the problem is that there is no guarantee that "the earth will rebuilt itself." That is a childish fantasy.

Nihilism is often founded on fantasy ideas that excuse the laziness and inaction of the agent. This is the worst example I've seen.

If this person truly wants to give up on all current life forms on earth I suggest that she never take medicine, not worry in the least about spreading illness when she is infectious, never throw trash in a garbage can if it does not immediately benefit her, never oppose war, have absolutely no interest in helping victims of natural disasters or illness, go into an industry that will allow her to personally profit from such illnesses and disasters, support people who kill animals for fun (what do they matter, the earth will always provide more animals). And if she should ever be pinned under a burning automobile, she shouldn't bother to cry for help. She is irrelevant and expendable. If she feels that she is NOT irrelevant and expendable, then maybe other people and other lifeforms should be protected as well.

Tell her to read Camus' "The Plague" and give existentialist philosophy a try.

[Asgaya Dihi]

30. Maybe it's just me

but I'm not reading the same thing into this that some people seem to. I've reread the first post and don't see anything in what was said to the poster that suggests we shouldn't try to change things for the better. I damned sure try to. It's more similar to recognizing that after we die life goes on, just on a broader scale. We're still going to try to avoid death.

It's not really one or the other, or it doesn't seem it has to be.

[Katherine Brengle]

34. Okay, that was actually helpful --

I think that makes it easier for me. The death comparison is a very good one -- thank you.

[Jose Diablo]

31. Big Yellow Taxi n/t

[Katherine Brengle]

33. I guess the problem I am dealing with it... who cares?

I have always cared, but I am really starting to wonder...

I don't know...

[Asgaya Dihi]

5. I've been thinking about that for years

Oddly I find comfort in the idea. Back at the end of the age of the dinosaurs something like 90% of all life on earth was wiped out, we've had other major extinction events of the sort in the past as well. All that did was to make room for us, for new life and new chances.

It disturbed me at first but eventually I started to think of it in different terms. If the earth/sun is only somewhere around half way or less through its useful life we should still have time to wipe ourselves out along with most other species and still have time for a more intelligent form of life to evolve and leave the planet in time.

Life goes on. Not a happy thought on a personal level, but to me oddly reassuring somehow.

[Oversea Visitor]

6. Hmmmm

You mean no nothing commit sucide. And that do something so dont need die selfish.

We already manipulating evolution of planet by our pollution. So what wrong with some manipulation to undo our pollution :)

[leesa]

7. If the planet's gonna toss us off, it's gonna toss us off...you actually

worry about this? Just take care of the planet and its inhabitants. If we don't survive as a species, so be it. Do the best you can. What is the alternative...accelerating the humanoid death by pigging out on as many fossil fuels as possible?

[HereSince1628]

8. Setting aside the debate on conservationism vs protectionism

I would propose that...

A basic evolutionary based perspective would suggest that the purpose of life is to survive and reproduce. Unless you are into species level altruism it would follow that helping our species and others survive and reproduce is consistent with the fullfillment of a 'natural' purpose of life.

It is true that there have been major extinctions on the planet and some are assumed to have been caused by environmental catastrophes. The fossil record suggests that after each, the species richness of the planet recovers, although the same type of species may no longer be present. This assumes of course that our notion of the pre-catastrophe species richness and post-catastrophe species richness is correct. I have no reason to believe that it isn't.

If the planet was made utterly unsuitable for all life, which is to say if every living thing were dead, there what reason is there to believe that conditions would ultimately return to something that would allow life top be created again de novo? In the time remaining in the earth's biosustainable life how likely is it to create life de novo? I suspect the probabilities though not zero are low.

Consequently, there is some reason to believe that if survival and reproduction are good, it might be better to protect what we have than gamble on it's being recreated.

[seabeyond]

9. my 8 yr old just recently learned about global warming and got afraid

let it go i told him. not going ot happen tomorrow. we are a smart people. i have faith. get bush out and we will start solving the problems and regardless, not going ot be my lifetime, or yours or your kids.....

as the first poster said, eat drink and be merry. what is .... is. i still have my child to give heart to hearts.... and good the feel whether we manipulate the natural course of earth or not

[cally]

10. No, we have to try to fix our own problems

Maybe in some abstact way, we can take comfort in the earth's survival but there is no guarantee that any life will continue. This mindset somewhat reminds me of the fatalism of the rapturists. Why try to improve the world if it's all going to end soon?

I believe we have about 10 years to fix this. I'm absolutely scared about global warming. It's my number one issue and I have personally taken a reduction in income to work on an aspect of a solution this year. But, we all have to make massive changes to address this global crisis. It's my number one reason that I hope Gore runs. I think he's the person we need right now.

[lonestarnot]

11. "Let them eat cake."

[twenty2strings]

12. The robots will save us...The singularity is coming!!!!!!!!...

We've had a good run but I think we're pretty much done. Don't mind dying,but don't like any creature to suffer. I have kids and I just want them to have a good life and love as long as they can. We are parasites though,really. Lovely,beautiful,music making,shakespeare writing feathered painted huggable parasites. Conflicted? YOU BET!:grouphug:

[wtmusic]

15. Don't be such a pessimist

the universe is open. There is new hope in our eternity as elemental iron!

[twenty2strings]

19. I'm really quite cheerful...Thanks for caring...

We might make it. Yes,we must be HAPPY warriors and oppose fear and inhumanity. Agreed. Miracles just might exist. and furthermore I dont know whats behind the sliding curtain. I hope It's love and peace. Thanks again!:toast:

[Jara sang]

23. Oh man, my friend is also a "singularist".

He thinks that we will all be able to download our "souls" into computers one day.

[twenty2strings]

25. I'm not really a singularist,but Kurzweil is interesting...

I just wish I knew what this "soul" thingie was. Makes more sense than Rapture though. Wouldn't it be funny if we could download our minds but came out the other side with amnesia.:eyes:

[Agony]

13. Just be Happy!

And work like hell for what is right.

Global climate change boils (sorry) down to our affect on the rate of change. Climate change has always happened and always will. Same applies to species extinction. Species extinction has always happened, its just that we are dramatically changing the rate at which it happens!

Probably _the_ most important thing you can do is make sure your kids are well educated independant thinkers. Make sure they go through life with their eyes wide open, not conversely with their eyes wide shut, like most seem to do. We need more kids who are trained in the sciences...

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

14. We're still newcomers to the plantet.

The first "life" was formed about 4.5 Billion years ago on earth. The first homo-sapiens developed about 500,000 years ago. Many common insects that we still see around us have been around for 35-40 million years.

We think we're a unique life form only because we think we're a unique life form.

As an ealier poster said, I find that kind of comforting when pondering the nature of the universe (or, "universes" according to quantum theory).

So, what to do? As the Zennists say, "Chop wood and carry water." Live your life.

[Finder]

16. It is human nature.

The same reason tribes would dance for rain during a drought for thousands of years. We do what we can and must in order to survive.

[Neil Lisst]

17. just think like an animal -

Our job is to take care of our young and to extend our species beyond our generation.

The Earth is just a big chunk of rock hurling through space, with a thin veneer of water and life on the exterior. It's going to be sailing through space long after the last human croaks, so don't worry about it.

The best thing to do for your daughter? Read her a story, the one she likes best.

Better yet, write one for her, one that has great life lessons. You're a good writer. I've read your work.

[porphyrian]

18. If by "always" you mean "until it's destroyed," yes.

While there are many self-adjusting systems to the earth, that doesn't mean life can be sustained through all of them. It also doesn't mean the earth can survive, say, the eventual supernova of the sun. Even before that, the movement of the galaxy will put us in the path of other large celestial bodies ala the movie "Armageddon" (with or without Bruce Willis), and it's unlikely whoever may be alive at that time will be able to do anything to prevent it. Many things evolve and end in destruction.

As for your flip-side, simply by existing you're affecting the evolution of the planet and everything on it. You can't avoid it. Why not try to do so in a good way?

[K-W]

20. So human beings don't have a right to exist?

Because if we didnt exist the world would be different and we are to assume that a world without us is the 'right' world, and that a world where we effect the earth is somehow unnatural?

The biosphere, including you is just as much a part of earth as the rocks and the water. You are not unnatural and your actions are not unnatural and ther is nothing inherently wrong with manipulating our environment. The earth does not have some evolutionary path that we are keeping it from, if the earth has an evolutionary path, our actions are just as much a part of it as an earthquake.

[0007]

21. We don't know. Just as the pyramids are a mystery. So is life.

How many times has the earth cleansed itself of former civilizations?

Doesn't nuclear power have the ability to wipe us all off the face of the earth?

How many civilizations will there be after this one?

I think I understand what this person is talking about.

[Jara sang]

22. "if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you."

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

24. With a twinkling eye and a hearty laugh.

We think ourselves such bigshots in the universe(s) that the "abyss" must have a grand laugh at our pipsqueek notions of self-importance.

[Agony]

26. So true.

We'd really be better off if more of us chopped wood and carried water, in the literal sense.

[Atman]

27. I posted this same premise a couple of months ago...got royally flamed

"Save the earth" isn't necessary. The earth will be spinning around long after humans are gone and the next species takes over. We are a disease on the planet, and while we may make our host sick, she'll eventually shake us off, as she has every other disease. She'll emerge different that before, but the earth isn't going anywhere.

What we do to the earth is helping her kill us off that much faster. Even if the earth winds up like Mars, it will still be here. Tough shit, but that's just the way it is. Ask the dinosaurs.

[Katherine Brengle]

32. This is what I am thinking...

but who knows...

[long_green]

28. What the fuck difference does that...

or anything else make?:sarcasm:

oh, "Give us the money, Lebowski!"