RE: Duke Rape Case...I have a very affluent friend

[Horse with no Name]

who lives in Connecticut. She calls herself a Democrat but she does support Joe Lieberman.:eyes: Anyway, she has two sons and a daughter.
Her eldest son went to Harvard, then Harvard Medical School and is now a Doctor. Her daughter went to Duke and then to Harvard Law and is now an attorney (one that specializes in high profile discrimination cases against women :thumbsup:) and her youngest son went to Yale and then University of Michigan Law School and is also an attorney (and is a Democratic delegate).
ANYWAY...she has 3 REALLLLLY good kids. Excellent. They have wonderful families, wonderful values, and are definitely kids to be proud of.
And they are ALL Democrats.
So anyway--I have really stayed away from the Duke thing because I knew how it would end....it's a totally classist issue. Rich boy...poor girl. The girl didn't stand a chance.
Her take on it is that the girl is golddigging because she equates these boys at Duke with her own kids and feels that they couldn't have done this because HER kids wouldn't do such a thing.
I have only read some of the articles but I know I saw one that was talking about that they hadn't DNA tested all of the boys yet.
Help point me in the direction of a solid argument here--she is always willing to change her mind but I sure didn't have my ammunition ready on this case because I haven't followed it closely enough.

[bluestateguy]

1. I think we need to see what the facts are

I won't assume or rule out anything. They could be guilty, or she could be making the whole thing up. We should be patient.

[American Tragedy]

3. I agree.

I don't understand how so many here can assume they know exactly what happened. At this point, neither guilt nor innocence seems reasonably out of the question.

[frankenforpres]

2. why should she change her mind

and if you plan on changing her mind, why not wait until there is a verdict?

[oblivious]

6. Well isn't that the point of the OP? Her friend's made up her mind already

[Warpy]

4. First of all, it's a criminal case and not a civil one

so the victim is not in line to get money from anyone. All she's in line for is people like your friend looking at her race, her class and her occupation and deciding that no NICE boy (read: prep school) could possibly have raped her and she's just one step above a common streetwalker anyway, blah blah blah.

The fact is that the DA is convinced that a crime took place, which means he's got something besides her word, like injuries and forensic evidence. Your friend needs a reality check, and maybe informing her of the difference between civil and criminal cases will do it. Maybe not. Anyway she doesn't seem to have raised any stupid children so let her be if she clings to conventional stupidity.

This is why all sex work pays so well. It's dangerous.

[northzax]

5. the civil/criminal thing is meaningless

you don't think that a civil case will follow the criminal one, especially if there is a conviction? Someone rapes you, and you aren't suing them for every penny they have, especially if they are fairly wealthy? of course you are. That's what the civil court system is for, renumeration of injuries, and what's more injurous than rape?

and no, I don't think she's a golddigger, someone did something, and if they can't pay criminally, they should pay financially.

[marions ghost]

10. and in how many rape cases

do the victims win damages in a civil case? I've heard of getting paid off to DROP a case. But I don't believe the civil court system puts through many rape cases.

If you know otherwise, please inform.

[Pastiche423]

19. "Someone rapes you, and you aren't suing them...?"

It has never crossed my mind to sue the men that raped me, not even the one that stabbed and beat me, then left me for dead. I do wish I had died.

What has crossed my mind for nineteen + years is fear. It never goes away.

[area51]

28. I'm so sorry this happened to you.

:hug:

[Horse with no Name]

37. I, too, am sorry this happened to you

:hug:

[BrklynLiberal]

7. See if this has any points that might help.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=103&topic_id=205781&mesg_id=205781

[MsUnderstood]

8. My feelings on how others should respond to this case

Is your friend okay with the captain of the lacrosse team hiring 2 strippers to come over and lap dance on these boys?

This is the number 2 lacrosse team in the nation and they have been busted for little crimes already (public drinking I think) and now they hire 2 strippers for the guys to watch dance? The captains of the team condone it?

Where is the code of ethics that should go along with sports? Hiring women to dance for you is great for a bachelor party, poker party, but these are sports figures in college and they should have some semblence of rules governing their behaviour. They can act like spoiled rich kids when they arent representing the college.

[Horse with no Name]

29. I don't think she judges them for doing this

We didn't get into this aspect.

[Yupster]

38. If a stripper showed up at our poker night

she better be dealt in or leave quitly. We're not going to tolerate anyone swinging around and disturbing our game.

Poker Night's for poker damnit.

[Renew Deal]

9. It's a trial.

Your mind shouldn't be set that these guys are guilty. There is no way we know either way for sure. The entire case is bizarre and not in the mystery kind of way. 3 guys did it, but 2 we're indicted. Where the hell is the third guy? How are they sure about the first two if they haven't gotten all 3 yet. These aren't hardened criminals. You can't tell me that they can hide the name of the 3rd guy. It's a strange case and you shouldn't feel obligated to change minds.

[bloom]

11. The best compilation of articles

is at:

http://justice4twosisters.blogspot.com/


Other good opinion pieces at Alas:

http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/category/feminism-sexism-etc/rape-intimate-violence-related-issues/


And this is a good article:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=103x205781

[TreasonousBastard]

12. So, why do you need "ammunition"? This is...

far from settled, and nobody not directly involved really knows what's going on or what happened. Even if there's a trial, the verdict will still be argued over. I expect lots of "rich white justice" vs "poor black justice" arguments until this is finally history. It will probably never be fully settled without a very smoky gun.

Your friend is not at all unusual in using her personal experience to prejudge the case, right or wrong. I don't know if going any further with this is worthwhile if we don't know all the facts, and the most I would do is simply point out that all kids are not her kids. "Girls Gone Wild" Spring Break videos and the Nebraska football coach making deals with the DA getting to let his his players away with all sorts of things might be evidence of that.

BTW, the team member who wasn't tested was the one black one. They saw no point in testing since she claimed the attackers were white.

[LisaL]

13. They have DNA tested all of them, except for the black guy.

No match.
I haven't a clue as to why you are convinced you know better than your friend. Just because a woman accused rich men, does not mean they did anything to her.
:eyes:

[Horse with no Name]

30. As I said

I haven't followed this trial at all.
I DON'T know better, however, I don't feel that the girl is "automatically" lying because she is poor and black and the boys are rich and white.
Her mind is made up. Mine is not.

[aikoaiko]

14. No one except those involved really know.

There is just not, IMHO, to be sure of anything.

eta: And those involved may not be remembering correctly.

[hlthe2b]

15. It is truly a travesty that this did not remain a LOCAL crime case...

This national obsession is not conducive to justice for anyone involved.... And, frankly, it should NOT be news. I don't know what the ultimate facts will be, when this comes to trial, but I am convinced that all concerned would be a lot better off if this had remained a LOCAL legal matter.

[marions ghost]

17. Perhaps

but since the accuser would NOT be likely to get justice against the wealthy white Duke students anyway, she certainly doesn't have much to lose. The men have the most to lose in bad publicity and it is their supporters who protest the nationalization of the story. The mens' behavior (regardless of whether rape is proven) suggests that they may have some dangerously depraved tendencies (what's the DIFF between these men --if they did it, and a gang of violent hoodlums on the street corner? Nothing)
This is newsworthy. Sometimes a case just has wings becauses it touches a collective nerve...the point in 'To Kill A Mockingbird.'

Rape is a serious social problem that is epidemic in this country. But it is always swept under the rug and contained as a "local legal matter." (meaning no one hears about it)

I'm not too sorry that this particular one got blown up so that people will discuss it which is a step toward facing the problem. While it's been way overdone, I'd rather it be in the news than hushed up like most rape cases. Bring this out in the open. Accuse in the public square. It might help change things. The fact that these dancers (with a socially frowned-on occupation, and past convictions of their own) feel they still have the right to fight this, is rather amazing, in and of itself. You have to ask why they feel so emboldened, when a lot of people even here on DU come right out and say (knowing very little about the case) that the accuser has either no case or no chance in the system. This is in itself newsworthy.

Y'know everyone says let's talk about Iraq, about the important stories. But if you don't get the connection between the arrogance and aggression of our current government and what may have happened here in this "local" (but could be Anywhere USA) story...you ain't quite gettin it. There is a big picture component here. The accused are not vagrants and ner do wells, they are the future CEOS, leaders, bankers, lawyers, power brokers of this country.

Wherever it goes I am not sorry that it was not hushed up.

[hlthe2b]

23. Oh, I'm "gettin it" quite well....

If we had had a National focus the past five 1/2 years on the big truths, this rampant arrogance might not have become the perverted "norm." Populist social justice is intimately linked to National social politics.

If, the woman's story is absolute truth and these guys are the elitist little racist misogynist thugs that would be consistent with that "truth," I agree that as much daylight as possible needs to be cast upon the situation. I have a hard time thinking the National media circus will, necessarily, accomplish that. The interest, seems to be overwhelmingly wrapped around the RW need to castigate this woman as an exotic dancer, with the implications (as in the abortion wars) that no woman, short of the Virgin Mary, is NOT "asking for it." I don't frankly see how unleashing that kind of RW hate on this poor woman (regardless of what may end up being the facts in the case) and the community is, at all, helpful. Rape is the ultimate in attempts to degrade a person and enforce loss of all individual power. With the National saturation coverage, it is unlikely this woman's identity will remain private much longer. Again, assuming that she is the truthful victim in this, she will be severely victimized again and for the unforeseeable future, with death threats from the RW Talk Radio-enraged zombies surely to follow.

When I say this should have been a local story, I certainly don't mean buried. Perhaps a more precise description would be a state-wide, or at most regional story. Those often go national, but for a short period of time--unless hyped. That is what the unconscionable media is doing now, IMHO. This is a tragic circumstance for the victim if her story is true, or the accused team members if, by chance, she is not being truthful--as well as for the community. There is a major difference between reporting on it, and sensationalizing it for prurient purposes or someone's ideological agenda. I believe very little national coverage can now be considered "mere reporting."

[marions ghost]

27. In the way that it has happened

the woman stands to get a lot of support as well as castigation. So despite the feeding frenzy I am not so convinced that the accuser's suffering is any greater than it would have been had the story been more or less "contained' at state level. She will have to be very strong regardless.

The supporters of the men would certainly have preferred it to be contained at any level--any way or how. It is not to their benefit to have it blown up into a big national tabloid saga obviously. I really don't think that much ideological hay can be made out of it for the rabid rightwing. It's hard to defend people accused of brutal rape, but of course they'll try...but I don't think the sensationalizing of it is good for the rightwing agenda, nor do I think it's some kind of attempt at distraction from "important" issues. The overdoing of it is all about profits IMO. I share your lament in that. But as I said, it would not have "sold" if it did not touch a collective nerve, for many reasons. As you seem to agree, this IS an important issue, very relevant to our times.

[hlthe2b]

43. Perhaps... the saddest thing is the range of ugly responses....

I fear for the girl if she IS telling the truth. I fear even more, if she is NOT. And, if she is NOT, I fear for all the rape victims in the months and years to come.

As we saw at the CO SPrings Air Force Academy a year ago in those documented sexual assault and harrassment incidents, this pattern of behavior and "institutional" climate of misogyny towards women colleagues is not one that can be readily reversed. Similarly community societal attitudes towards women in general, and even more towards those some perceive as "less worthy"-- for whatever reason-- are slow to change. The pervasive inequalities that accompany these attitudes only underscore the harm done to women by failure to ratify the ERA. I'm not too young to remember that fight and those women (Phyllis Schafly, for instance) who stabbed all of us in the back in their misrepresentations of what the ERA was meant to do and their implications that it wasn't really needed. This continued second class citizen status of women is a major enabler to the ugly attitudes we see today.

You say, "the woman stands to get a lot of support as well as castigation," from the National attention. I hope that you are right. If she is not being truthful, I hope that support is available to all the future rape victims, who will suffer the consequences in their own situations.

[Horse with no Name]

31. Great points.

Thank you.

[ms liberty]

16. First, you need to learn the known facts

which are far from conclusive in either direction. I have been keeping up with the case, and right now it is not definitive at all. My understanding is that ALL of the members of the lacrosse team HAVE had their dna tested, except one player, who is black. The alleged victim has stated that the men who assaulted her are white. According to numerous news reports, none of the dna from the team matched. There are a lot of inconsistencies and contradictions in this case right now, and it is not a simple "classist" issue, nor is it as simple as town/gown, or black/white.

It sounds like you've already made up your mind about the case, so my first question would be if you want to know all the information, or just what reinforces your preconceived judgement?

Either way, my suggestion would be to start with the newspaper websites, like the Raleigh News & Observer; and/or the TV station websites, such as WRAL. Of course , you can also go to MSNBC, who has done a decent job IMO, simply because they have covered the story from both viewpoints.

If you just want to reinforce your opinions, and your post is any guide as to those opinions, then you're going to get plenty of suggestions and links to do that. That's not in any way a value judgement; I'm simply making an observation based on reading your post, and having read many of the posts about this case. There are quite a few people here who have very much made up their minds, and some of them have been quite verbal about it!

[Horse with no Name]

32. Please read what I said

without inserting editorial license. I said I HAVE NOT kept up with the case.
I have no preconceived notions other than I KNOW that she isn't a golddigger based ONLY because she is poor and black and the boys are rich and white.
That is what makes this case very classist to some and as I tried to explain to my friend, you cannot compare these boys to your kids.
However, I think the entire crux of HER argument comes down to the fact that she doesn't believe rich white boys would be "interested" in a poor black girl. Again, the old notion that rape is somehow tied to sex.
Thus the classism.
That is what I want my friend to drop. An opinion that is based entirely upon a racist/classist notion.

[rucky]

18. If poor people were willing to do anything for money...

they'd be rich. But they're poor, and only rich people seem to believe they'll get stomped on in someone else's greedy scam. Why do you suppose that is?

eom

[pitohui]

20. don't lose your friend over this

this is not worth arguing abt, read the newsweek story before going any further w. this

the girl may or may not have been raped, but she was tricked by the cops into picking two pictures of duke students -- both of whom seem to have alibis

studies show over and over again that it is quite difficult for people of one race to accurately ID the attacker of another race, cops and prosecutors want to close cases, they put pictures in front of people, and the power of suggestion takes over

there have been myriad young black men convicted of rape, later proved by dna to be innocent, because of this technique of prosecutors shoving photos into the hands of the recently victimized, a black man in my area was released after 15 years when dna showed he could not have committed the rape the victim swore he committed

the victim was impaired, she doesn't know who attacked her, she was a double victim of a prosecutor out to make a name who shoved pictures under her face

read the book "project innocence," it talks a lot abt how this technique is used to clear cases and convict the innocent because prosecutors don't care who goes to prison as long as someone does

and never forget that if an innocent man is convicted it means the real rapist is still out there doing his thing

don't fight w. your friend

be cautious

[Horse with no Name]

33. We're not fighting over this

but as I told her, I can understand how it is since I am the "working class" and she is the "elite class".
I just wish she wouldn't make that the basis of her argument.
She loves these sensational cases--she is the one that all of these networks cater too.
She could tell you EVERY aspect of the Scott/Lacey and Michael Jackson et al cases.
However, she seems to be a little personally blinded by this one--but only because she has good kids.

[pnwmom]

21. Could it be possible that she was raped before she went to the party?

I understand that she arrived there already drunk, and with bruises on her legs. People can have alcoholic blackouts during which they walk around and do things -- but can't remember anything the next day.

Could she have woken up (after she passed out) with flashes of memory of being raped, but not be really clear on when it took place?

The medical evidence would appear to support the case that she was raped. But that in itself doesn't tell us when, where, or who did it.

[LostinVA]

25. You are mistaken, with what we know

The second dancer has publicly stated that the accuser was NOT impaired nor cut up, etc. when they went to the party. When they left, however, she was acting completely different, quiet, and appeared impaired.

Per the SANE's medical evidence, the woman was raped, and was raped quite badly re: physical injuries.

Woman don't get raped so badly they need hospitalization then go dance at a party. I have driven two friends to the hospital after rapes. There's no way in hell they could have went to work at a desk job, let alone to a party to strip.

The ONLY people saying she was already drunk is the Defense. At this point we only know what people are saying, but I trust the second dancer a hell of a lot more than the Defense.

[pnwmom]

34. The second dancer lost credibility with me when she went to hire

the PR people to "spin" her story -- and at the same time, changed some of her opinions.

Some of the injuries could have occurred before the party, and some during, as result of her being drunk. Re the cuts: I heard there was tape of the accuser having passed out at the bottom of some concrete steps, and that the cuts could have resulted from the fall.

I started out with a gut impression, based on my own biases, that at least some students were guilty, but now I don't think we'll ever know.

Have you heard whether any tests showed drugs in her system?

[BrownOak]

39. How do you get there?

You state that the ONLY people saying she was already drunk when she got to the party is the defense. But the only person saying she wasn't drunk is the second dancer, a person who has changed their original story after getting a break from the DA on her bond terms for an unrelated incident. She's also a person who filed a false police report with that first 911 call. So taking her word on the state of the alleged victim is as suspect as taking the word of the players. At any rate, the toxicology reports from the medical exam should reveal whether or not there was a date rape drug used.

However, regarding the possibility that this woman may have been assaulted prior to the party (and that does not necessarily have to mean that evening) you state it is not possible because she was raped quite badly re: physical injuries. But, the SANE exam information shared with the public makes no references to injuries, other than injuries consistent with sexual assault. Given that the SANE handbook states that "just as with nongenital trauma, the absence of genital trauma does not indicate consent" you can assume that the degree of physical injury can range from mild (their term, not mine) all the way to severe. So you cannot go from the SANE report and state that she was "raped badly."

Jumping from the findings of the SANE exam that we know of to the idea of the victim being "raped badly" is unsupported. You claim she was hospitalities because she was raped so badly, but you have nothing to show that her trip to the hospital was for anything other than the SANE exam. Indeed, the first place the police took her was to a substance-abuse center. If she had been physically assaulted to the degree you're trying to show then why wouldn't anyone think to take her directly to the hospital.

The picture you're trying to paint of someone who was "raped badly" is at odds with the statements of those who saw her after the alleged incident. The second dancer didn't notice anything to make her think the woman had just been "raped badly" as she has said she initially doubted the allegations. She's claim she has now changed her mind, but as per her statements, that's because of the way the defense has acted, not because of how the alleged victim behaved. The Kroger security guard and the first responding officer both didn't note any physical injuries of a great degree. And the victim's father, in his first contact with the press, said he daughter came to see him the next day and he didn't know anything was wrong. (Note - after talking with his daughter, the father has changed his story to saying he knew she had been beaten up.)

Now, none of that is to say she wasn't raped as the SANE exam did find injuries consistent with a rape. But your anecdotal evidence aside, there's nothing to indicate that the origin of those injuries could not have occurred before the party.

[onenote]

42. thanks

This is the point I've been trying, without success, to make in response to LostinVA's repeated assertion that the SANE exam establishes as factual matter that the woman was raped. It may well turn out to be the case, and if someone wants to form the opinion that she was raped from the fact that her injuries were deemed "consistent" with rape, that's their prerogative. But it simply is not correct to contend that because the SANE exam concluded she had injuries consistent with rape that those injuries had to be the result of a rape. The range of injuries that can be deemeed consistent with rape is quite broad and there is at least some area of overlap with what one might find in an examination of someone who engaged in consensual sex. (For example, mild irritation, bruising, etc. of the genital area can be consistent with rape; it also can be consistent with consensual sex). We don't know what exactly the SANE exam found, nor can I tell whether the findings in that exam focus exclusively on the injuries to the genital area or consider the woman's other injuries -- bruises on her legs, scrapes, etc. which could have occurred as a result of a sexual assault or as a result of a non-sexual assault or even, potentially, through an accidental fall.

Once the evidence is more fully disclosed, it may become clearer as to whether that evidence shows injuries that not only are consistent with rape, but inconsistent with consensual sexual behavior. But until that point in time, its simply wrong to say the SANE exam establishes that the woman was raped. At most, it establishes that she may have been raped.

onenote

[mountainvue]

46. Also, the toxicology report

states she was not under the influence of alcohol.

[Neil Lisst]

22. This case is a Rorschach test. Everyone sees what they want to.

[Bridget Burke]

24. Tell her that it's too soon to say.

The case is being tried in the press. It's good that her kids have done well--unlike others who have had things handed to them on a silver platter. Or--did they work their ways through school?

If you want to change her mind about something that matters--find out why the heck she's still a Lieberman supporter.

[Horse with no Name]

35. Oh I have tried that

and I always make retching noises when she talks about him (mature, I know).
I can't for the life of me understand why she likes him.:shrug:
My guess is that she isn't willing to admit that they move in the same circles socially--that is one of the only things I can come up with.
Her kids didn't work their way through school. They just studied.
However, for their graduation presents, she and her husband paid off their entire debt, including credit cards, student loans, cars, etc. so that they had completely clean slates starting in the working world. However, they did let the kids know that there wasn't any more handouts. This was their one-time helping hand--Ivy League educations and complete loan bailout. Not a bad deal. They are all on their own now.
I know her daughter doesn't make much money and they do struggle. Most of her cases are pro-bono and her husband is a teacher. So that monetary gift allowed her to do something very worthwhile. In fact, she just had lunch with Ruth Bader Ginsburg in the last few months. What an honor!

[ugarte]

26. If it was a 'black on black' case, how many DUers would be discussing it?

Unfortunately, in this country everything is wrapped up in race.

Read Leonard Pitts' take:

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/opinion/2002945702_pitts23.html

[Horse with no Name]

36. Thank you.

Nice Op ed.

[Marie26]

40. What I've noticed

is that many people form assumptions based on the classes of the people involved. The Duke kids are like one of their own sons, so the sympathies will be tilted in that direction. The same way the media kept repeating that Natalie Holloway was "like one of our own daughters" & her case received coverage that a comparable crime to a black woman would not. It's an us & them thing.

[Fierce]

41. There are a lot easier ways to gold-dig...

...than to set yourself up in such a way that your entire personal life and that of your children is subject to intense scrutiny, conjecture, judgment, ridicule and dismissal.

It's like saying people choose to be gay. Why would anyone choose a life that faces those kind of difficulties?

[pnwmom]

44. It is NOTHING like saying people choose to be gay.

There is lots of scientific evidence that people do not choose to be gay.

On the other hand, we have no idea what the evidence in this case, when it is all in front of a jury, is going to say.

It is quite possible, to my mind, that a person could make a false accusation -- either through anger or out of confusion -- and not have fully thought out the consequences to their own lives.

No one who comes out as gay, however, can fail to realize the consequences.

[pnwmom]

45. Don't you think the Duke/Harvard educated attorney daughter -- who

specializes in cases of discrimination against women -- has voiced an opinion about the case that will carry more weight than anything you could say? Or the attorney son? Or the physician son? All liberal democrats with wonderful values?

As a mother of two sons and a daughter, I would hate to think someone could get convicted on as little hard evidence as I have read at this point. Maybe more will come out; probably, since the prosecutor must think he has a case. But right now I think a lot of us are jumping the gun.