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politicat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-24-06 01:23 AM
Original message
Thought on immigration: "Sealed Borders" work both ways.
I keep hearing this argument that the only way to stop illegal immigration is to "seal the borders." I heard it most recently today from a union leader in the area.

Sealing the border would by necessity make both ingress and egress difficult - that's the point. Right now, it's very easy to legally leave the country without significant federal oversight. I can't trust that after sealing the border, that will remain so. Once they seal the border, what's next? Gotta keep the money from going out, so freezing bank accounts? Forbidding foreign investment? Making it impossible to export currency? None of these are new tactics.

I can't help thinking about places that made it difficult for people to leave - Cambodia, the USSR, East Germany, Romania, North Korea, China. The people who couldn't leave were usually dissidents; for some reason, dictatorships LIKE to keep their troublemakers, instead of giving them the international version of "don't let the door hit you on the way out." And pretty much every real world dystopia has started with sealing the borders.

I am not paranoid, dammit, but I don't think we're looking at the implications of both sides of this concept - we can't make borders out of goretex, so that things can pass through one way, but not the other.

My friend and I got/renewed our passports a few weeks ago - she was heading to the Caribbean on vacation and I realized mine needed to be done - my childhood one having expired. She had a hell of a time getting hers, and mine was delayed. And it cost us both a couple hundred dollars we could have happily used elsewhere. Getting out of here legally is already a hassle, and if you're poor, not going to happen. Is it a good idea to make it worse?

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shraby Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-24-06 01:38 AM
Response to Original message
1. Those are similar thoughts I've
been having about that "fence" which will actually be a concrete wall. Not something that is easily crossed is it?
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pitohui Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-24-06 01:51 AM
Response to Original message
2. facts not in evidence
i think it a bit insulting to assume that no one here actually has or maintains a passport and therefore wouldn't call you on that little fib that renewing your passport costs "a couple hundred bucks," it costs nothing of the sort, you know it, i know it, and everybody here who has a passport knows it

when people have to exaggerate, i'm not much interested in their arguments

i'm willing to listen to an honest argument

by the way you do know that no one died and made george bush dictator of the world, other countries already decide for themselves what documentation we need to enter them, and they enforce their requirements, so the usa deciding to enforce or not has fuck-all to do w. some other country deciding to allow you to emigrate, which they won't unless you are rich, foreign nations do not want americans taking their jobs, they have enough employment issues to deal w.
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politicat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-24-06 02:48 PM
Response to Reply #2
11. Mine cost me about 130 to renew, and 14 hours of work. NO EXPEDITE.
I documented it. ($95 for the fee, $15 for the photos, $4 for copies, $5 for mailing, and $10 to get a copy of my birth certificate from the state of my birth. I had my adoption papers, else those would have added $35. I did not need expedited service.) Yeah, it amortizes out to about $13 a year, but I get to do this mostly again in 10 years, and it will be more expensive by then. (My first passport cost about $45, all fees inclusive.)

Need it fast? Even if you start out with plenty of time, you may need expedited service by the end of the process. My friend's cost her over $200, in part because she had a documentation error that she didn't know about until she applied for her passport. It also took her about 35 hours to get it. Lots of people have small documentation errors that can cause a passport application to be rejected, and must be corrected before a person can get a passport, and correcting those errors are expensive, difficult and absolutely necessary. And yes, you can get to age 30 and not realize that your birth certificate is in error. How many birth certificates do you look at a week to determine what's a normal one? Most of us don't.

Not a fib. Passports START at $95. If you need any additional service, the price goes up quickly.

Think about it - if a country does not allow it's people to leave, or makes it very difficult to do so, then it matters not a whit what other countries are doing. (Example) It's easy to get into Uruguay, but it's hard to get out of Argentina. So even if Uruguay makes it easy to come in, an Argentinian can't even ask for entry into Uruguay if he's going to be turned back from his own border. That's the concern I've got.

If the US makes it hard to get in, they have to make it hard to get out, too, and once it's hard to leave, there's a big stick over our heads to behave as the government wants us to, because there's no possibility of escape. It's coercive. That's the issue.



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pitohui Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-24-06 11:32 PM
Response to Reply #11
19. well you created your own expenses to a certain extent
i just went to the AAA and got my free passport photographs and then to the post office where it cost me all of $60 for non-expedited service, but even if the new price is $95 then there is a big difference between $95 and "a couple hundred dollars," in fact, you're talking about a more than 200 percent exaggeration

your greater claim, that the usa stops people from leaving, is untrue on the face of it, no one is checking at the border to stop you from leaving, i cross internat'l borders routinely, and it is simply not an issue as usa citizen

hell you can walk across the border at tijuana and no one in mexico checks either, so you can walk across the border and nobody even bothers to ask you who you are or why

but i have landed in amsterdam and germany and had no one look at my documents

nothing is easier than leaving the usa

heck, plane tickets are cheap these days but if you can't afford a passport, how do you afford a plane ticket i wonder?

your logic is illogic, there are such things as semi-permeable membranes and one-way exits, indeed, i would suggest that from a financial standpoint every $$$ you spend trying to track someone leaving the country is a $$$ not available to be used to screen people entering the country

if you want to start anew in a foreign country, you have bigger issues that passport fees, you need to work on creating enough wealth that you can live without working, it opens up a lot more countries to you as a resident, since many countries seek american retirees but few desire american workers

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Ecumenist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-24-06 02:01 AM
Response to Original message
3. That's what I've been thinking about as well.
What if one wanted to leave this country for whatever reason... It's going to be like trying to pull teeth from a chicken and more than likely, having to explain everything at every step of the way.
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pitohui Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-24-06 02:04 AM
Response to Reply #3
4. well you are just being silly
you can alleviate that fear tomorrow, just go and leave the country, it is pretty damn easy my friend, i do it all the time just for a hobby!

no one gives a damn why or wherefore, the tourist industry is one of the biggest industries ever in existence

who do you think you have to explain to? guess what, no one cares, we are not the center of the universe after all, imagine that

the explaining comes when you are ready to go home!
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Ecumenist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-24-06 02:25 AM
Response to Reply #4
5. For now....
I'm not talking about today and right now., Pitohui... I have up close and personal family who lived in other more RESTRICTED countries and it's not an abstract idea. I understand that you leave and go as it suits you. I'm alluding to the near future based on what this bunch has be slowing doing, in eroding the basic rights we take for granted. Already, people ahave to prevented from flying due to arbitrary lists...do you honestly think that more restricitve measures are far behind?
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RUMMYisFROSTED Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-24-06 05:34 PM
Response to Reply #4
17. That's an interesting hobby.
I collect descriptions of bad breath for a hobby.


E.g., "Parsley, Sage, Rosemary and dogshit."
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pitohui Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-24-06 11:35 PM
Response to Reply #17
20. well your hobby is certainly cheaper than my hobby
and there is much to be said for frugality :-)

but the advantage of travel as a hobby is that it is an interest shared w. many other people and you can strike up conversations anywhere if you like

i am not sure i would like to strike up a conversation w. a stranger abt bad breath!
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Nicole Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-24-06 03:07 AM
Response to Original message
6. A couple hundred dollars for a passport?
That's ridicules. Did it go up after 9/11 or something?

It used to be $75-$80, I'm not real sure on the exact amount. I know it was under a $100 because I went to dinner with the change.
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politicat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-24-06 02:33 PM
Response to Reply #6
7. $95 for the passport...
$45 for expedited service (my friend ended up needing it after delays due to ID issues; I didn't), $30 for birth certificates (do you know where yours is? Can you find it in your dark, burning house? Better get another one or two.) $15 for photos, $5 for copying and notary fees, and some miscellaneous little fees under a buck each.

Not to mention the 14 hours of business day hours that it took me to sort out my delay, and the 35 hours of business day hours that it took her to sort out hers (she had an identification issue stemming from being a child of Back to the Land 70s hippies). She makes about $20 an hour; I make about $35 if I'm on contract.

How many people can afford to give up a week's pay to deal with paperwork?
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DeaconBlues Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-24-06 02:38 PM
Response to Reply #7
8. Last time I checked
You can get a copy of your birth certificate for free.
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politicat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-24-06 02:50 PM
Response to Reply #8
12. Yeah, if you live in the state and county where you were born.
I don't. I don't even live in the state and county where I was adopted.

And even assuming I lived in this state and county where I was born, (assuming this one, because it's the easiest one for me to check), there's still a $5.00 research, print and notary fee.

TANSTAAFL.
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Nicole Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-24-06 04:50 PM
Response to Reply #7
14. Thanks for the info
I had no idea they went up. I don't need to renew for 5 years so it will probably be even more then.

I don't know anyone who could afford to give up a day's pay, let alone a week, to deal with paperwork.


Actually I do know where my birth certificate is & could find it in a dark, burning house. One of the things about living in the middle of tornado alley is you keep those types of things all in one place to grab quickly when heading for shelter.
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originalpckelly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-24-06 02:45 PM
Response to Original message
9. I guess you have heard about the new fences being built these days...
Edited on Mon Apr-24-06 02:47 PM by originalpckelly
You can walk right through them, but the Bogey Mexican can't get in. Amazing. Saw a demonstration video myself. I tried it, but I just ran into the fence. Salesman said it was because I wasn't patriotic enough, or something.
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pitohui Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-24-06 11:38 PM
Response to Reply #9
21. go to tijuana, mexico
i suspect you have not crossed the mexican border except by airplane because that is exactly what it is

going into mexico no one official stops you or asks for $$$ or even asks your name

going back into usa, there is the bottleneck

it is not really difficult to design paths that are bottlenecks in one direction but free-flowing in another, every time you enter a parking lot that if you backed out, your tires got "spiked" you have entered such a one way design

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El Fuego Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-24-06 02:47 PM
Response to Original message
10. Gee, maybe you'll have to go to another country.... legally????
:shrug:
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politicat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-24-06 02:54 PM
Response to Reply #10
13. I'm legal, right now.
What happens when someone with my same name does something stupid and I end up on a "list"? What if I want to go study the interaction of economic incentive and religious faith in some no-go country? I want to go to Cuba to do Hemingway research - nope. Sorry. Can't go.

Just because I'm legal now doesn't mean that the laws won't change, or the application of the laws won't change.

And saying worrying about legality is not an issue because I'm not breaking a law is like saying I shouldn't worry about electronic surveillance because I'm not breaking a law. It's the same concept - what can be done can be abused.
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jerry611 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-24-06 05:15 PM
Response to Original message
15. I just don't view it the same way...
I have problems with an open border. The biggest problem I have is that there is a lot of criminal activity going on. There are drug traffickers. There are human traffickers. And there are illegal incursions into the United States by Mexican military and police (which that alone is an act of war according to international law.)
In my opinion, this is unacceptable.

There needs to be a presence on the border to monitor not just illegal immigration, but also for terrorists, and drug and human traffickers. Because there are cartels that operate right on the border in Mexico. And these people have guns and they will shoot anyone that gets in their way. You can talk to any rancher that lives next to the border, they hear gunshots all the time. Their land gets invaded. And this is why many have had to resort to favoring ideas such as a security fence.

I think it is paranoia to believe that the government is going to seal the border and prevent you from leaving. The problem with passports is that the proccessing takes awhile. Courthouses get backlogged and behind. And the cost is due to the state having to do the research. It has absolutely nothing to do with the borders. If the cost or wait to get a passport bothers you, that is obviously something that needs to be taken up with your state representatives. Whether the border is sealed or not, it does nothing to affect how long it takes to get a passport.
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politicat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-24-06 11:17 PM
Response to Reply #15
18. I lived on the border.
1987 to 1991. My father was stationed at Yuma Marine Corps Air Station, and you can bet that the Marines and La Migra interfaced on a highly regular basis - Posse Comitatus does not apply to border situations. Lived from 1985 to 1998 within 100 miles of the border, but for those four years, we were ten minutes from a border that could have gone bonkers at any time (and did - the peso crashed in 89). Honestly, there's no place in the US that I've ever felt safer.

Gang violence does not come from Mexico. First generation Mexican immigrants consider the whole street gang thing to be bullshit. Most of the gang members I have known (and I've known a decent number, since a lot of them were my clients after they got in trouble and were required to get counseling as a part of their probation/parole) were subsequent generation, or were brought to the US as very small children and grew up in American culture. The sociological reason for gang involvement is equal parts alienation from the conflicting cultures (Anglo America doesn't appreciate the child of Mexican immigrant parents, while Hispanic culture doesn't consider the American born or raised children of immigrants to be really Mexican) and rebellion against those conflicting cultures. There's a strong cultural imperative among young Hispanics to exclude their parents from their lives and to form peer groups that exert communal control rather than accepting control from the community elders. Without access to the generational knowledge, and in a community that does not value education and does not have access to decent work, the youth communities turn to crime and each other to support themselves. The elders withdraw further from their children, in both fear of outside consequences such as an immigration violation, and in personal fear of the youth community's violence. Thus, the cycle perpetuates. This is not a new pattern - Irish and Italians notably followed it during their own immigrations - but since Central American immigration has not cycled as European immigration did, there has not been a chance for intra-communal correction, as the youth community ages and matures.

And unlike the native-born, urban African American community, Hispanic culture has never placed any positive emphasis on family planning and reproductive control. Since the parent culture is still strongly agrarian and religious in cultural emphasis (even if not in reality) and early and frequent reproduction has an economic benefit in that culture, the generational progression from large families with little education to small, carefully planned families with a high standard of education has not happened with immigration. Historically, by the third or fourth generation, immigrant families assimilated and adopted education and smaller family size as economically beneficial. This has not yet happened with the Central American communities, in part because the alienation of the youth peer-group from the elder group is encouraging a separatist community rather than an assimilationist one. (But keep in mind that these separatists are usually American Citizens and almost always native born. They nearly always straddle the cultural line between American Mass culture and Central American immigrant culture.)

From what I've read of other people who work in the mental health system and the social work system, gang involvement in other areas tends to the same pattern - it's not the first generation Haitian, Jamaican, Irish, Parsi, Nigerian, Iranian, Indian or Ivorian immigrants who take up with the gangs - it's their children, and it all stems back to the sense of dual cultural alienation and racism. (Some data on gang involvement can be found in Freakanomics, by Levitt and Dubner, while the influences of immigration on gang membership are being documented in most of the sociology journals in the country.)

So... on to drugs. Most of the drugs consumed in the US are produced in the US - prescription abuse, meth and pot are numerically where the poundage (and the money) is. (DEA numbers are published every year, but rarely get read.) Coca primarily comes in via water, so Florida, the Gulf Coast and Texas, and opiates come in from the West Coast. Mexico is not nearly the drug danger that the DEA would have us believe it is. (If they'd stop inflating their numbers so dramatically, maybe they'd be more believable.) The drugs come in in container ships for the most part, and 99.5% of all containers are never inspected. If their paperwork is accurate, why bother? There is no way to get the manpower to inspect every single container that comes in through the Ports of Long Beach and Norfolk alone, without putting shipping at a standstill. So as long as we Americans are willing to import carefully bubble-wrapped, washed pebbles from China and vacuum wrapped cushions from Pakistan, we are going to import coca and heroin.

If I have approximately $300,000, I can set up a single ship shipping company, buy a container ship, flag it out of Liberia, and hire a Southeast Asian crew to run it. As long as my paperwork is accurate, that ship is unlikely to be bothered, and it's cheap to keep the paperwork accurate. (In other words, it would not be much of a problem for a determined terrorist to import nasty things in the hold of a container ship - if they play by the rules, they're likely to be waved through. If we don't want bad shit coming in, we have to Stop. Importing. Shit. And that's just not likely to happen any time soon. (For more info on sea trafficking and container imports, please read The Outlaw Sea, by William Langeweische. For information on estimates of drug importation and policies as well as information about the economics of undocumented labor, try Reefer Madness: Sex, Drugs and Cheap Labor in the American Black Market by Eric Schlosser.)

As long as there are employers willing to exploit people who are willing to work outside of the laws, there will be illegal labor. If employers can't hire undocumented workers, they will hire the young (who don't know enough to fight back), deny overtime or force people to work off the clock, put everyone on salary and force a 40+ X work week, force those on what passes for welfare who are forced by law to work 40 hours a week for minimum wage (who will work to make sure their kids still have access to a bare minimum level of food, shelter and health care) doing jobs that should be paid far better (calling it "Training Wages") , or those willing to try to cheat the system and work off the books. They already do this - I've seen every one of these violations in the low end of the service sector. It will just get more common.

Illegal labor doesn't go away because you take the undocumented workers away - business just shifts to some other form. As long as there is an incentive to cut labor costs and there are few risks or punishments in doing so (Labor law enforcement is one of the weakest areas of federal law enforcement) business will do so. (If you really want to end illegal labor, then cracking down on those that hire illegal workers is far more effective than trying to limit the supply of undocumented workers. But the latter are much easier to attack, because they don't make campaign contributions.) And as long as there are employers willing to pay for undocumented labor, there will be people willing to risk their lives for the offered dollars, and others willing to convey them here, no matter what the risk is. I've seen people walk across that desert, and I've seen people hauled out of there, raving from dehydration. Making it harder doesn't stop anyone... it just wastes more lives. Punish those who make it profitable, not those who are willing to take the money.

Every terrorist who has attacked an American target since the end of World War I was either here legally, admitted legally and overstayed, known to have entered the country and was under legal supervision, or was a citizen. None of those who have intentionally tried to damage us ever came in without our knowledge. (wikipedia, US terrorist incidents.) Poor Mexicans looking for a crap job mowing lawns and washing shirts so that they can send a few bucks home to keep their kids in school are not setting bombs in federal buildings or taking flight lessons in Florida. Irish illegals are driving hacks and delivering pizzas in New York and Boston. If you're gonna be undocumented, the very last thing you want to do is make purchases that are going to catch the Feds' eyes (like fertilizer) or get involved in something that would bring you to the attention of La Migra. There is a microscopic minority of people who are still annoyed over the Mexican American War, the Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo and the Gadsen Purchase; most of these are in Mexico, and want the treaties rescinded so they can claim LA and Houston. (There's a part of me that wants to give them back Texas, but only if they agree to take Bush, too.)

And on the subject of passports: Look at the situation in the USSR between the 1917 Revolution and Perestroika. In theory, everyone could get a passport, and in fact, everyone had to have an "internal passport", or identification. But to get a real passport, that would allow for overseas travel, one had to be a Party Member and be descended of Party members; one had to have an excess of spare money to pay for "service", a lot of time to deal with the bureaucracy, and get approval to get the paperwork to apply for a passport. Effectively, only the rich and the well connected had access to documentation. If your parents were capitalists, too bad. If you criticized the local Party boss where someone could hear, so sorry. If you refused to pay the "service fees" above and beyond what was legally demanded, go chase yourself. Once you had the passport (not something any intellectual, social critic, non-communist, or member of a necessary profession was likely to get), you had to obtain an exit visa, and unless you were a spotless party member with an impeccable set of references, getting out was not going to happen. The same was true in most of the totalitarian countries, whether fascist or communist in ideology.

We're not there yet, but we're close, and closing a border makes it all the easier to slap exit visas into place. Right now, Americans can be fined or arrested for going to no-go countries, and Cuba very kindly does not stamp American passports. (I don't know about the other 25 no-gos; I know a Hemingway researcher who has been to "Mexico" a few times.) When I went to Russia while I was in college, I was grilled on exit and re-entry (I'm an historian. I didn't and don't give a fuck about communism - I was interested in medieval documentation.) That was in 94, when international terrorism was something that happened elsewhere. I can't imagine what hoops I'd be jumping through now. I was and am legal - I was not going anyplace that was forbidden, I was going for legitimate and legal research purposes, and I was not politically active at the time. There was no reason for any suspicion of me - but I got it.

I'm thinking about old people who cross the border to buy their meds - or their food; show riders who go to Algodones to have saddles made; students who go to get dental work done. In the name of protection of the drug industry (which has more money than I can even dream of), an exit visa system could easily be sold to Americans. Gotta keep an eye on *X*. We get scared and dumb enough to buy it. (We bought the PATRIOT Act, remember?) And once you sell that type of system, then who gets to go becomes a system of privilege.

I see this as a very slippery slope... When it becomes okay to make travel difficult, the next easy step is to make certain travel impossible, or to make certain people ineligible for travel. We're doing that now - no-go countries, Watch Lists, and freezing bank accounts and seizing property on suspicion, not conviction. And the next step is to prevent those "difficult" types from crossing state, town or county borders. And it all sells in the name of safety and protection. We Americans may be individually smart and fair, but collectively, we're as dumb and prejudiced as the biggest idiot with the loudest voice.

I don't want to cross borders illegally. I just want to continue to be able to cross them, and I've seen too many places where it hasn't been possible to travel to feel comfortable letting a government as inept as this one try to keep others out and me in.
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patriothackd Donating Member (152 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-24-06 05:24 PM
Response to Original message
16. Well they are hardly 'sealing' them very well anyway
Here in Arizona there's a steady stream of incoming. And it's easy to cross the border going southbound at Nogales. As far as I can tell, no one's doing much sealing of anything no matter what the hype is. It's probably impressive to farmers in Iowa. No one here is under any illusions that our border is any safer than it used to be.
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pitohui Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-24-06 11:41 PM
Response to Reply #16
22. yeah i agree
it's all much ado abt nothing

i have watched w. my own eyes as mexicans rowboated across the rio grande in southern texas w. no one to take much notice but the birdwatchers, who are not abt to start a border war when they are just there to enjoy the birds, we just pretended not to see them and they pretended not to see us

i may be missing something, but something tells me that if a little flatboat can go from mexico to texas it can go back from texas to mexico again

is there anybody here too lame to even operate a rowboat?
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