thinking ahead - Toyota does it, why not GM?

[greenman3610]

http://www.greencarcongress.com/2006/04/toyota_ratchets.html#more

Another UK publication, the Auto Express, recently published an article (earlier post) which included a Toyota engineer’s assertion that the next Prius, due in late 2007 as a 2008 model, is being designed with a fuel consumption target of 94 miles per gallon (US), or 2.5 l/100km.
<snip>
Last year, Toyota exhibited a concept home in Japan (earlier post) that included a plug-in Prius. Designed in cooperation with Toyota’s home-building division, Toyota Home K.K., the Toyota Dream House Papi was touted as an environmentally friendly, energy-saving intelligent house that could interact with other Toyota technologies. The house was designed to be able to use the Prius as its sole energy source for up to 36 hours in emergencies, and to recharge the Prius when needed. At the time, Toyota said that it expected such technologies to be in use by 2010.

---
Honda has officially introduced its third generation of a home combined heating, power and hydrogen system, the Home Energy Station III, in the US in conjunction with its partner Plug Power.

Honda had previewed the HES III system at the Tokyo Motor show in October, along with the introduction of its new FCX fuel cell prototype. (Earlier post.)

Located for testing at the company’s North American headquarters in Torrance, California, HES III is 30% more compact and delivers 25% more electrical power than previous Home Energy Station models.

http://www.greencarcongress.com/2005/11/honda_introduce.html

[yourout]

1. Big Oil will fight this any way possible.

They will start a whisper campaign saying it does not work or some shit like that.

[ramapo]

2. It is UnAmerican

Look ahead no farther than the quarterly profit and the stock effect. Plan on how to spend your paycheck, not save. Use up all the resources you want, no need to woory about the future. Pile up all the debt you want, no need to worry about the future. If everything is ok today, then it'll be better tomorrow, after all, this is the United States of America. We are invincible and the smartest people on the planet. God is on our side. Etc....

[OhioChick]

I was watching that "CNN Presents"

program regarding oil last night. They were talking about Brazil being near the verge of no longer being dependent on oil. They primarily use only sugar cane. They went on to show a vehicle that runs only on sugar cane...........a GM vehicle. Why aren't we/they (GM) doing this here??

[charlie]

7. Brazil's motor fuel needs

are miniscule compared to ours. Also, sugar cane far more efficiently/cheaply converts into ethanol than the sort of crops we have to work with here.

[HereSince1628]

3. GM is thinking ahead...to a time when a GM is a foreign made car

[a kennedy]

5. and we, the American tax payer will bail them out

as usual. D*mn. :mad: :mad: :mad:

[MrTriumph]

11. We've already paid for out Chevys & Buicks once. NO GM BAIL OUT!

In addition to the purchase price, we've paid for our GM cars with :
High depreciation plus excessive repair bills to fix crummy parts, poor contruction and bad engineering.

I do not want to pay for my Buick again by helping GM with a bail out do you?

[benburch]

4. Because the American Era is over.

We are in decline. And "The third world is right around the corner".

[JHB]

6. Because Saint Ronald the Gipper Saved Us from "Communist" practices...

...like tax practices that encouraged "unpoductive" and "money-losing" practices like long-term R&D. And that was when a corporation's notion of "long term" was 5 years, not 5 months. AND, let's not forget "Big Government" funding for fundamental research.

[Atman]

8. All Toyota has done so far is issue a Press Release

GE (and I hate them with a passion, as a corporation, but that's besides the point) has had a concept house in Western Mass for many years. We don't know what GM is working on, because they haven't issued a similar press release. That said, Toyota's idea of using the Prius for a generator is very clever and certainly forward-thinking. But to say they are doing it when GM isn't is not really factual. It's kinda like saying Windows is beating OSX with Vista...maybe in Bill's fantasy stage shows, but there is no there there yet.

I think America is still very much stuck in the post 70's "hate American cars" mind set which we've never been able to shake. It isn't just cars, it's everything. Anything imported we glom onto as "better." We have for decades now.

Just this weekend someone posted a pic of a great new car called the Honda FIT, which got 38 mph, just introduced, with a similar admonition, "Why can't GM do this?!" I took me 30 seconds to find a picture of the Chevy Aero, nearly identical to the Fit, which has been on the market for a year. I also posted a link to the entire line of Chevy cars and Toyota cars, and sure enough, they were nearly identical in terms of number of small-car/sedan/SUV models available. But try telling that to the average DUer. Supposedly every Toyota is light as a butterfly and runs of fairy dust, but every GM car is a Cadillac Escalade. It's bullshit. It is knee-jerk American car bashing, imho. I'm not really defending GM as a company, I guess I'm just a bit tired of the ill-informed bashing. America sucks and has many problems, for sure, but we perpetuate it when we don't educate ourselves.

GM's financial problems are not because of big cars. Toyota makes just as many of them. GM's "problems" are in part "manufactured" in order to get the corporate-friendly BushCo regulators to release them from their obligations to their employees so the CEOs and shareholders can pocket more money. Again, that certainly doesn't make GM a better company, management-wise. But they ARE a corporation chartered to make money for shareholders. And as long as we're willing to accept corporate person-hood and a corporatist government, this is what large corporations are going to do.

But don't blame the cars. They only manufactured what we were buying.

:hide:

[MrTriumph]

10. So you are blaming Am. consumers for GM's countless bad choices.

Do you remember GM settling with FIAT for $2 BILLION. Then there's GM's purchase of SAAB & Isuzu. More cash down the drain. And for '06 instead of a new line of cars, GM sinks billions into a new line of SUVs.

Oh, GM does offer new smallish car, the Cobalt. In a auto magazine's 6 car match-up the Cobalt and Saturn version took 5th & 6th place.

Oh, how about another new car: the Solstice, Pontiac's Miata wanna-be. It tool 10+ years of studying the Miata for GM to come up with a sports car that's slower, stops longer, and uses more gas than the Miata. Plus, the Solstice comes with finger nail-busting, hard to use convertible top.

Oh, and here's one more. Your quote: "Just this weekend someone posted a pic of a great new car called the Honda FIT, which got 38 mph, just introduced, with a similar admonition, "Why can't GM do this?!" I took me 30 seconds to find a picture of the Chevy Aero." Do you know who actually manufactures the Aero and where?

Face it: Gm has been at war with the boomers since they built the Vega, that small economy car that was sold to mostly young people in the early '70s. It was an terrible car with poor fit & finish and the famous melting motor. It was enough to sour an entire generation on GM. Of course, GM kept building lousy cars for years afterward.

[Atman]

12. Of course I know all those things.

If you think any car company builds 100% of its own cars, you're delusional. Isuzu's business model shifted to manufacture of trucks and deisel engines a few years back, from what I know. I think they sell a lot of trucks, but selling commercial trucks overseas isn't part of GM's core business, and when looking for places to cut, I suppose that was a natural area to do so. But GM also teamed up with another little Japanese car company you may have heard of, by the name of Toyota. And they built cars in California. I know, I owned one. An 1989 Chevy Nova. It was one of the best small cars I ever owned. I was a tank, for a small car. When I needed parts, I could use Toyota Corolla parts or Chevy parts for a lot less. The car cost $3000 less than a Corolla, but it WAS a Corolla. It was made in America. Still, Americans wouldn't buy it because it had the Chevy bow tie.

As for the Aero, yes, I am well aware that it is a Suzuki. Made by Fiji Motors of Japan, which also makes *gasp* everyone's beloved Subaru. Yes, Chevy sells "Subarus," which are really "Suzukis," under a "Chevy" name plate.

But Americans love Subaru's. I bet they won't buy the Aero, though, made by the same company. Why? Because of the Chevy bow tie again.

The underlying point of my rant is that Americans are at once fickle and uneducated, and many do seem to look back to the Vega and Monza and their melting engines -- which as I recall were relatively first-of-their kind all-aluminum engines which obviously had not been perfected -- when the rant about poor quality American cars. But aluminum engines are no big deal today, are they? Still, look at what you used to illustrate the horrible quality of American cars...a thirty year old low-end loss leader.

You didn't address my point about the Toyota line-up compared to Chevy's. Just as many big SUV's, just as few small cars. (The Prius doesn't really count yet, because of its niche status).

Okay, the Solstice; I had a hard time finding real reviews of production models. This Forbes review is about the worst I found, although I don't doubt there are others. One thing struck me, though...while you say GM had "ten years" to copy the Miata, in actuality, just about every article I found commented on the amazingly short turn-around time from the concept car to production. And, you're comparing a first-release, version 1 model with a car that has has years of real-world testing and refinement. But I've driven a brand-new, first year Miata. My brother was one of the early adopter, had to have one, paid $5000 over sticker just to get one of the first. While it was a BLAST to drive, it was a total rattle-trap. After a year, the fit and finish stuff was falling off the car. Why don't you compare the first-year Miata with the first-year Solstice, then?

So, am I blaming American consumers instead of the car companies? In a way, absolutely. Again, GM made the cars people were buying. No one was clamoring for tiny cars. Even Toyota wasn't blowing the doors off their dealerships with the ECHO, were they? No one wanted them. There was always a market for entry-level small cars like the Civic and the Corolla, but those weren't the money makers for Honda or Toyota...the SUV's were, just as they were for GM. But we never honestly compare Toyota's car line up with GM, because we're conditioned to hate all things American. GM's financial problems are not because of the cars it's selling...it is because of its management and benefit structure as a corporation. And all their "cry me a river" bullshit is just that, bullshit, as a way to force labor to give up benefits and kiss their pensions good-bye while the top management makes a killing.

That's the gist of my post. SUV's are a smoke-screen, pardon the air-pollution reference. Do we need to get away from them? Absolutely! But I'd like to see just as many threads bashing Honda, Nissan and Toyota for selling gargantuan SUVs, which I see just as many of on the road than GM models. But no one ever does. Why is that? That's all I want to know. Toyota is a much younger company than GM. GM has years and years of in-bred corporate structure and government intertwinement through defense contracts, etc, and it won't be easy to fix it.

Despite the sound of this rant, I'm not trying to "defend" GM. I'm just trying to make the debate a little more honest and informed.

[ContraBass Black]

13. Notes:

The Corollas that say "Toyota" on the front are made in the same places as the ones that don't.

The Pontiac Solstice looks an awful lot like the Opel Speedster and Lotus Elise, also GM cars.

The Miata is a Ford.

[Atman]

14. Thank you

Hate the American, though! Hate 'em! It's all the American's fault!

Now, class, go look at a picture of the street in many European cities...they're flooded with GM cars. Tons' of em, everywhere. GM tries to sell them here, but WE won't buy them. So blame GM.

On edit: Just to expand the list: The "big" new Lincoln Zephyr is a Mazda 6.

[ContraBass Black]

15. I blame GM for a poor reliability record (Consumer Reports 198X-2006)

And a mostly boring line up of the same car under five different faces.

But the boring part is just my opinion. Other people look at some of those cars and get all excited.


Also, not all of those European GM cars are American, but rather foreign cars sold by an American company. For example, I believe that the Opel line is primarily European engineered, and then additional production lines opened in the US for domestic sales.

The original Catera was an Opel, sold in Europe.
The "new" GTO has been available in Australia as a Holden Monaro for ten years.
The Saab 9-2x is a Subaru. The other Saabs are Opels.
The the Pontiac Vibe is a Toyota Matrix, which is really just another Corolla.

[Atman]

16. It was a strategy that worked for a while...that era is gone

I basically agree with what you're saying. But that is partly because of their initial strategy of offering different "brands" for different demographics. Chevy's were entry-level. Then you graduated up the product line until you were old and/or successful and bought a Caddy. But when manufacturing all these different models because too expensive in the seventies, they just began slapping different name plates and trim levels on the same cars, and no one was fooled. Still, though, they sold a lot of cars for a long time. In fairness, Toyota does it, too. You have the Scion entry-level, the Toyota basic level, and the Lexus high-end level. But again, Toyota is a much younger company than GM, and in many ways was able to learn from what GM had already experienced. Remember the Toyota Corona btw? What a tiny little shit-box! But it got people into Toyotas. Now, look at Hyundai's. The first Accents and Elantras were tiny POS's. But they were refined and redesigned, and now Hyundai offers the Azera, one of the prettiest, well equipped sedans on the market. GM is an old-school company, and it has been hobbled by generations of workers expecting retirement packages and company loyalty, where its competitors have had only to concentrate on building the cars.

[ContraBass Black]

17. Not quite, I'd say.

Scions are actually completely different cars from mainline Toyota, (unless the tC is a Paseo in prettier clothes). Lexus cars aren't just new faces. The trim and power train options reach a much higher level.

Japanese companies take care of their older and retiring workers. It's part of the culture.

The Washington Auto show wasn't on the usual date this year, so I haven't seen the Azera.

[Horse with no Name]

25. I'll disagree about the Corona

I had one many years ago and while it was a seemingly unattractive little thing, it really was a good little car. I think I paid $200 for it while I was in College and drove it a few years.
But then again, I liked my Datsun F10 hatchback.:)
I DRIVE cars.
I had an Oldsmobile Cutlass Calais that I bought used with 100k miles on it and drove it to nearly 300k miles.
Loved the car but it finally died.
I drove a friend to look at a new car, and when we came back from the test drive, several of the salesman had surrounded the car and were looking at the mileage--was it true they asked?
And indeed it was. Almost 300k miles with (fairly) routine maintenance and no major repairs.
If only I could find another one...
My Mom drives a Buick Century, and before that drove a Buick Century.
My Grandpa drives a Buick Century, and before that drove a Buick Century.
My Aunt drives a Buick Century, and before that drove a Chevrolet Celebrity I think.
I like Buicks as well--however, they don't fit my needs.
My brother will ONLY drive Fords.
I drive a Jeep now.
I have had a couple of Chevrolets that were lemons--notably one being a Sprint and one being a Cavalier.
I will be hard pressed to drive the bowtie again.
As far as Hyundai's--I've always thought they were a decent little car and they are pretty cheap to get into. But one of my friend has 2 daughters who both bought Hyundais to drive back and forth to college and they have had nothing but trouble. I am very reluctant to put my daughter in one of those as well--not because of what I know first hand, but what I have seen. I won't touch a KIA. Not really keen on Suzukis either and I really have no cause for that--other than the fact that I don't have any experience and I don't know anyone who has had experience with it.
I'm not Anti-American cars--but definitely have to factor in cost and reliability and couple that with experience.
If there was a small Olds or Buick that was low-priced, I'd buy it because my experience with those two cars has always been excellent. But give me the SAME car with a Chevy sticker on it and I would probably pass on it.

[lectrobyte]

20. More than just a press release, they demo'd a concept car... And

individuals have already converted Prius's to plug-in operation. Sounds like more than a press release. I'd expect to see these in a few years. At least Ford is doing something, like the hybrid Escape.

GM seems to be waiting for a big bailout on E85 or hydrogen or something, and falling further behind. I did see a commerciall for the new Hummer H3, and it was a really cute commercial, like godzilla and a robot mate and produce the H3 as their offspring. I've never heard of a Chevy Aero until your post, but it sounds like a rebadged Suzuki Aero? I have seen the new Cobalt, which looks nice.

[Atman]

22. Yes, the Aero is the Suzuki

The Cobalt looks a bit spartan to me, trim-wise. My son surprised me and bought a Malibu four-banger when GM was doing its "our price" promotion. It's actually a pretty nice car, lots of room, great sound system, and surprisinly quick and agile for a 4 cyl. Gets GREAT gas mileage!

[ContraBass Black]

23. What makes the new Cobalt different

From the old Cavalier?

[Atman]

24. It has no relationship to the Cavalier at all. Read this...

From "TheCarConnection.com" vehicle reviews...

======

Chevy finally has a compact car it can be proud of, one that can go bumper-to-bumper against the best small cars from Japan.

But will buyers give Chevy's thoroughly excellent little Cobalt a chance? Decades of mediocre Cavaliers, so-so Citations, and just plain awful Chevettes have made Toyota, Honda, and other import brands the default choice when many buyers go shopping.

Luring them back to the Bowtie may be as big a challenge as it was finally getting the Cobalt - which replaces the Cavalier in Chevy's product lineup - put together in the first place

Hard to fault

The car itself is hard to fault on any level. Fit, finish and the overall sense of build quality and attention to detail are comparable to class leaders like the Toyota Corolla and Honda Civic. Though inexpensive, with a base price of $13,625 for the standard trim level sedan or hatchback coupe, it's neither cheap-feeling nor sparsely equipped. All models come with air conditioning and a cabin filtration system (still an expensive option on the Honda Civic) and the Cobalt's standard 2.2-liter, 145-hp Ecotec four-cylinder engine is larger and more powerful by a significant margin than the Civic's 1.7-liter, 115-hp engine or the Toyota Corolla's 1.8 liter, 130-hp engine.

The Cobalt starts out with price advantage, too. It's about $1000 less than a Civic "Value Package" equipped with air conditioning, and about $150 bucks less than a base Corolla CE with A/C and manual transmission ($13,780). Plus, since Chevy is more strongly motivated to "deal" on its cars than Toyota , the actual out the door price difference between a Corolla and Cobalt is probably going to be significantly more, in favor of the Cobalt.

more ====>

http://www.thecarconnection.com/Vehicle_Reviews/Sedans_and_Coupes/2005_Chevy_Cobalt.S180.A8691.html

[doc03]

9. Al Gore was ridiculed in 1992 by the Republicans

for writing in his book that we have to work on a replacement for the internal combustion engine. Bill Clinton tried to do something about health-care in 1993 and was shot down by the Insurance Industry. I brought these two points up to a Repuke the other day that was complaining about those problems and was just met by a blank stare. The American auto industry doesn't want to make fuel efficient cars, they think they can keep selling Escalades and Hummers. They think they can produce a product then create a market for it, rather than making what the people want. I wanted to buy a smaller more fuel efficient truck and rather than make one competitive with the Japanese they try and push the full size ones on you by cheapening up the smaller ones. I got, "that's an entry level vehicle" bullshit from them.

[ComerPerro]

18. GM, Ford, and Chrysler all have convinced themselves

that Americans will keep buying SUVs, large trucks, and general gas guzzlers no matter how expensive gas gets.

They have spent ten years promoting and glamourizing big, ineffienient vehicles. They won't back down now.

[ContraBass Black]

19. I see dealer lots full of Suburbans and Excursions, but not full of

Highlanders and Pilots. Why is that?

[ComerPerro]

21. I don't agree with it. Im just saying, that seems to be their mentality