"United 93" promo poster.

[Jara sang]

Has Flight 93 flying over the Statue of Liberty toward the burning World Trade Center. Gee, last time I looked at a map Shanksville, Penn. was several hundred miles away from Manhattan, and it's flight path was in the opposite direction from NYC. This movie is disgusting, it is propaganda disguised as Hollywood cinema. The events on board Flight 93 are pure speculation. How do we know the passengers revolted? If we are to go by the voice recordings of cell phone calls and the black box as proof then we must also assume there was a bomb and a gun on board as well, one of the passengers said this. Also notice that almost any serious stories written about Flight 93 always have the caveat that says "it is assumed the passengers revolted". No proof what so ever.

[WildEyedLiberal]

1. The way I am seeing it, the plane just took off

The plane took off from a NYC airport bound for somewhere in California, I think, thus it would make sense that the plane is seen heading away from NY. Just my two cents.

[Jara sang]

6. Sorry, that is only a portion of the poster.

The poster I saw was in the mall and had the "twin towers" burning in the background. Essentially that shot of the Statue of Liberty, the plane, and the burning twin towers.

[WildEyedLiberal]

7. Oh, ok, yeah that's dumb

The towers were certainly not on fire when Flight 93 took off. :eyes:

[Radio_Lady]

32. FYI, there are TWO movies being released this summer.

One is "United 93" opening here in Portland on Friday, April 28. Only selected press members are allowed to see this one. (I just found out I'm not in the selected few.)

http://www.us.imdb.com/title/tt0475276/

The other film is Oliver Stone's "World Trade Center." I've seen the poster. That film is opening later this summer. The date listed for the USA is August 9, 2006.

http://www.us.imdb.com/title/tt0469641/

Hope that clarifies the matter.

[Hobarticus]

2. Can you prove that they didn't revolt? n/t

[Jara sang]

9. Can you prove there isn't an angry unicorn who doesn't control the world?

[Hobarticus]

12. Now that's just silly...

Almost as silly as debating what really did or didn't happen onboard that aircraft.

[Jara sang]

14. You are correct, we should just take what the MSM jams down our throats

as fact. That was borrowed from a quote by Edward Abbey by the way:

"Is there a God? Who knows? Is there an angry unicorn on the dark side of the moon?" -Edward Abbey

[Hobarticus]

17. I didn't say that, but I also didn't say that I know what happened

Nor will I pretend to, or deride any theory that I don't agree with.

[Marie26]

20. Touche. nt

[Virginia Dare]

10. Nobody can prove anything one way or the other...

since everybody on board is dead. There were some assumptions made based on the flight recorder and some cell phone calls that were made from passengers and crew on board, but some people have called that evidence into question as well.

The bottom line is, we'll probably never know.

Personally, I think there may or may not have been a revolt, and of course I can't prove it, but I'm pretty sure the plane was shot down.

[Hobarticus]

13. I wonder if the people on board really knew, themselves...

Seriously, I'm not being sarcastic. That's just too sad to think about.

[Virginia Dare]

15. Good point,

and it is sad, very sad, especially if they died for the reasons that I think they did.

[Beacho]

26. Sorry, proving a negative is not required

There is no evidence that this story happened, only speculation. The burden of proof is on those that promote this *conveniently* heroic narrative.

[Hobarticus]

28. I think plenty has been put forth to support this speculation...

Likewise, I haven't seen anything to disprove it, either, besides even weaker speculation. At the end of the day, we'll never know. That's my point: claiming that they DIDN'T revolt is just as absurd as claiming they did, since obviously the people involved are dead. Follow?

[Beacho]

31. Then where the hell is it?

All I've read so far is "I saw somewheres" and "I think it was on T.V.". I have not heard or seen any of this evidence. You'd think that if it was out there, the warbloggers would be posting it all over the damn place.

Flight recording? nope
Records of the cell conversations? nope
Aphidavit of anyone having a cell conversation with a passenger? nope

Too many holes in this story, as well.

Where the hell is it? cuz Occams' Razor is ready to make its' incision.

On edit: It is a basic principle that proving a negative is impossible and it is incumbent to prove the affirmative. To argue that because it can't be disproven, the it must be true is one of the fundemental logical fallacies.

[Hobarticus]

35. You can't be serious....put the razor back, Occam.

You might cut yourself. I Googled this stuff in thirty seconds. Didn't take long to refute your three points, I hope you brought more.

Flight recording from United 93. The entire air traffic control network must be in on the fix.

http://www.thememoryhole.org/911/flight93-air-traffic.htm

"Final struggle on United 93" played in Moussai's trial, only last week. Where have you been?

http://select.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=F20711F934540C708DDDAD0894DE404482

At least thirteen passengers made thirty phone calls from United 93. Do you get an affadavit when your family calls you?

http://911research.wtc7.net/planes/evidence/phonecalls.html

That's fine if you don't want to believe this story, I'll respect that, but to insist that the evidence doesn't exist in order to support your beliefs is rather ridiculous.

[Beacho]

36. Did you read your own links?

just curious

[uppityperson]

3. Ah, but you see, those are the guns that shot 93 down.

:evilgrin:

[rman]

4. People should watch "Flight 93"

"United 93" vs "Flight 93"


United 93 (Universal Pictures)
www.apple.com/trailers/universal/united93/
www.flight93.net (note the confusing URL)
www.united93movie.com

I think many people are incorrectly refering to this one as "Flight 93".

=======

Here's the real "Flight 93":

Flight 93 (A&E)
www.aetv.com/flight_93/f93_preview.jsp
www.loosechange911.com/flight93.mov

"Flight 93" contains a scene describing how they have trouble finding a plane at the crash site:

"Is there a plane in there?"

"We don't know yet..."

"What do you mean?"

"...we're still looking for it...at first we thought it was in the hole, but there's nothing in there..."

"It must have landed in the woods, we haven't found it yet.."

"We're talking about a 757, here...it's a huge plane..."

"Yea, we know...you can help us look for it if you want..."

[mrcheerful]

5. Remember the Alamo? The John Wayne myth not the historic facts.

Same movie just up dated so they could use an air plane. Amazing, what next? Remember flight 93 banners and flags in Iraq as our army bombs someones home that just was in their path?

[gatorboy]

8. "When the myth becomes truth"

"Print the myth."

[Virginia Dare]

11. Classic case, Custer's last stand...

for over 100 years Americans pretty much bought the official military version of what happened, but recently, archeology has proved that the Native American's version of what happened was much closer to the truth.

[gatorboy]

22. Here are a few more recent examples.

Jessica Lynch: The Myth:

Jessica took knife and gun wounds as she emptied her rifle into Iraqis. daring them to take her alive.

The Fact:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jessica_Lynch

It was unclear what injuries Lynch had at the time of her rescue, but it appears she suffered a head laceration, an injury to her spine and fractures to her right arm, both legs, and her right foot and ankle. Conflicting reports also existed that Lynch had suffered gunshot wounds to her left arm and right leg. Dr. Harith Al-Houssona, a doctor in the Nasirya hospital, described Lynch's injuries as "a broken arm, a broken thigh, and a dislocated ankle." According to Al-Houssona, there was no sign of gunshot or stab wounds, and Lynch's injuries were consistent with those that would be suffered in a car accident.

Though Pentagon statements claimed that Lynch emptied her rifle fighting off her attackers, later reports and Lynch herself indicated that this was not the case; in fact her rifle jammed on the first round and she did not offer any resistance to her capture. The story is now believed to have stemmed from the mistranslation of an intercepted Iraqi message which referred to one of her male fellow soldiers.

Moreover, according to reports, on March 30, Dr. Al-Houssona reportedly attempted to have Lynch delivered to the U.S. forces, an attempt which had to be abandoned when the Americans fired on the ambulance carrying her.


Pat Tillman: The Myth:

Pat Tillman, considered a national hero for giving up a lucrative football career to fight the war on terror was killed in the line of duty by the enemy forces. "...His sacrifice symbolized a heroic image in the minds of many Americans."

The Fact:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pat_Tillman

Tillman's death became a national controversy after the Pentagon disclosed to the Tillman family over a month after his death, on May 28, 2004, that he died as a result of a friendly fire incident. The family and other critics allege that the Pentagon delayed the disclosure for weeks after Tillman's memorial service out of a desire to protect the image of the U.S. armed forces.

[ThingsGottaChange]

16. I honestly don't know how anyone

could go see this movie. And I hope almost no one does!

[okieinpain]

18. I think the flight records pretty much sum up what happened. unless

you're saying the recordings are fakes.

[gatorboy]

23. It does make you wonder though

Why the recordings of the air traffic controllers were destroyed.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn?pagename=article&contentId=A6892-2004May6¬Found=true

Perhaps one of them was a recording about Flight 93? :shrug:

[Hobarticus]

30. That's a lot of tinfoil, but apparently it's a popular theory...

That would involve the cell phone companies, the operators, or anyone else who last spoke to the deceased, including their loved ones. The core of every conspiracy is, who gained from the plot, and how? And I guess I'm hard-pressed to understand why the victim's families would take part in such a thing. That's a pretty ridiculous conspiracy, but I've seen worse floated here.

I don't understand the basis of denying that these people fought for their lives, or that they would have called loved ones when faced with the inevitable, but whatever.

[arcane1]

19. just in time to "market" a war with Iran

:puke:

[SPKrazy]

21. Why Is It Important For You To Believe They Didn't Revolt?

I think they probably did.

I also think they were denied access to the cabin.

I suspect they may have been shot down.

But I don't know these things.

And you seem to be upset that they might have revolted.

Why?

[Jara sang]

24. That is where you are wrong. Emotion plays no part in my judgments.

I'm going by the facts. A lot of things were decided in the heat of the moment of 9/11. When emotions were high and the country was looking for heroes. They looked for a hero in George Bush and look where that sorry sack of shit has gotten us.

[SPKrazy]

25. Just The Facts Eh?

:rofl:

your fooling yourself if you believe that your emotions play no part in it

your reaction to the movie is telling enough

[SPKrazy]

38. Emotions Must Be Running High Jara

for you to have done what you did

tsk tsk

[Media_Lies_Daily]

29. Why is it important to you that they did revolt?

[SPKrazy]

33. It Isn't Important To Me

I don't have any idea, nor really care if they did or didn't revolt.

They are all dead.

Their families want to remember them revolting.

The fact is they died terrible deaths any way you look at it.

What difference does it really make whether they overtook the pilots, or didn't overtake the pilots; were shot down, or the hijackers crashed the plane?

Facts:
1) they were hijacked
2) they all died

the rest is all and will always be conjecture and opinion.

I'm a LIHOP person myself, and I think it is likely that the plane was shot down.

But I doubt that anyone will ever be able to prove that.

[Jara sang]

40. A death is a death, is a death, is a death.

One death is no more terrible or horrible than the next. Death merely is. I take objection to Bush riding the corpse of these people straight into the Whitehouse in '04. I don't know weather or not those people "revolted" and brought down the plane or not. Per haps they did, but what I can tell you is that there is not one iota of proof that that happened. People can beleive what they want to beleive but when their story of the events falls in line with the official story when the "officials" performed a whitewash of an investigation and exploited peoples emotion and exploited the political fallout of 9/11 then I take great objection to that as well.

[SPKrazy]

41. There Is No Doubt That 9/11 Is Exploited All The Time By *

and the exploiters of this new movie are interested in money. They may also be bushiite cheerleaders as well, but their main motive is money.

The 9/11 commission was a total whitewash. They were stonewalled every step of the way by the White House. Then they did their own half assed job of looking at the evidence, and ignoring other evidence. Very similar to the Warren Commission in my opinion.

The Jersey Girls and others have tried hard to get this out into the Corporate controlled MSM, but little has gotten out. They have gotten their story heard thanks to the internet(s).

I'm afraid the truth about 9/11's trail is getting cold.

Let's hope (and pray if ya got 'em!) that we can smoke those fuckers out!

Let 2006 be the next stage in the spreading of the truth about the criminals in the White House, and the Pentagon, and the corporate controlled media mouthpieces, and the rest of the cabal!

(My personal beliefs don't really prevent me from using the fuck word even though I consider myself a Christian aka, one who believes in Christ and follows his example. His example may not be the example that the RW pretends it is. I don't think Christ would really give a shit if I said fuck, vs. flip, etc. I don't really think Christ wants anything of me except to do my best to love and help others, and live as good a life as I am able. And when I fall short, that's okay, I can get back on the horse and try again after I clean up my messes!)

[Pastiche423]

27. When the tv ads come on

I mute my tv. I'm sick and outraged at the propaganda.

[discopants]

34. a few questions & comments for you guys

I've been reading a whole lot of attacks about this film as another piece of propaganda catapulted our way. Fair enough.

First the poster shown in the original post. It's a good design and effective marketing because it's a visual metaphor, regardless of your politics. Criticism of it on it's literal interpretation is missing the point. I'll give the marketing guys credit where credit is due.

Secondly, the "story" of the heroic passenger revolt. I have not read enough to know what the facts are from the radio and phone transcripts. Whether this act of heroism actually happened is uncertain, whether a missle took down 93 is uncertain. But what I don't follow with the criticism and skeptics is how does the "story", myth or not, take a side of either liberal or conservative ... why can't the story of passenger revolt against the terrorist hijacking that prevented an attack on the nation's Capitol be just as much a measure of patriotic pride for DU'ers as for anyone else? If you were on that flight would you have acted that way?

Why is there the assumption that the heroism in the actual United93 event (not the movie), myth or not, doesn't represent the patriotism held by fellow DU'ers? Who fucking gave wingnuts ownerhip of sacrifice for one's country.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

37. It's A MOVIE.

If we can get ours, they can get theirs. Unfortunately, that's just how things work.

But you know why I don't care? Because if we are serious about winning in 06 and beyond then our message fucking better be strong enough to not be compromised by a goddamn movie, know what I mean?

So what, a movie's coming out that might express propaganda we aren't fond of. I would hope that there's zero risk of that overturning our message and momentum going into 06. And if it could, then I would have to surmise that our message wasn't good enough to begin with.

[SPKrazy]

39. Laughable

to be so strung out about a movie you haven't seen

LIHOP makes sense to me

But I guess that if there is any truth to the 93 story MIHOP is blown?

[Mike Daniels]

42. There's just no reason for the government not to admit shooting the plane

Under the circumstance, 4 highjacked planes/3 already having hit their targets, would the general public really have issues with the government shooting down the plane?

It's not like the hijackers were going to have a change of heart and land the plane safely in a big old cornfield and spare everyone. And, I seriously doubt anyone even contemplated the possibility of a passenger revolt.

I must be missing something in the grand picture but I just fail to see any fall-out in the government saying in this instance "Yeah, we blew it up".

It seems a lot simpler and justifiable in those moments as opposed to going through the logistics of coordinating the accounts of individuals on the ground, relatives of the passengers and air control and military personal to create a mythology of a passenger revolt