I had lunch today with a patriot.

[Cyrano]

I got stuck going to a luncheon today where I actually had to put on a suit, eat rubber chicken, and listen to speakers. This is the kind of thing I try to avoid like the plague. I was sitting at a table with 10 people, but I only knew two of them. A guy across from me had an American flag pin in his lapel which is one of my pet hates.

We hadn't spoken two words during lunch, but as we broke up, I asked him why he was wearing the pin. He replied, "Oh, just to let people know that I'm patriotic." As my blood pressure shot through the roof, I bit my tongue, nodded and walked away. I had a thousand different replies, but it was the wrong time and place.

Here was some guy in an $800 suit, probably in his mid-50s, who felt he needed to make a public statement about his "patriotism." I spent the drive home wondering if there was someplace on the planet that banned screaming assholes. Thinking about it now, I guess I'm one of them for having asked him the question to start with.

[annabanana]

1. He might have been.

You'll never know.

[Fierce]

2. Shoulda asked him where it was made.

nt

[bryant69]

3. Im trying to figure out why that would piss you off so much

I mean if he was saying a lot of other crap or was attacking your patriotism, that would make sense.

Bryant
Check it out --> http://politicalcomment.blogspot.com

[MissB]

4. Maybe he is a liberal who is tired of people

making assumptions about his patriotism.

[AllieB]

5. You didn't have lunch with a patriot

You had lunch with a nationalist. True patriots don't wear their love of country on their sleev, just how those that truly love God don't crow about it to others.

[gratuitous]

6. A little Socratic dialog may have been in order

"Why are you wearing a flag pin?"

"So people will know I'm patriotic."

"Is there some question about that?"

"Well, you know, we have to support the troops."

"What does that mean?"

"You know, support the troops."

"And how do you support the troops?"

"What are you, some kind of peacenik commie hippie?"

"Maybe. But what do you mean by supporting the troops? What do you specifically do to support the troops."

"Well, I wear this lapel pin."

"Uh huh."

And so on.

[Iblis]

13. Once again, a lot of assumptions...

"Why are you wearing a flag pin?"

"So people will know I'm patriotic"

"Is there some question about that?"

"Usually from people who speak more than two words to me, yes."

"What does that mean?"

"Well, there is a belief amongst my peers that because I've spoken out against the lies and crimes of the current Bush junta, that I may hate America. This is a small, subtle way, of letting people know that I concede this flag to no one, and I still believe America is a great country going through a bad time. I didn't spend the prime years of my life in service to this country to hand it over to the people that currently occupy the White House.

And YOU are?"

[gratuitous]

15. That's another way the conversation might go

But nobody knows until you start asking more questions. :)

[Iblis]

19. Which was my point....And your point...

Hmmmm...

Where is the original poster with the answers to these burning questions, anyway??

L

[uppityperson]

23. answering you down below. nt

[jukes]

7. my sympathies

i'd have to be drug kicking & screaming to such a function.

in public i often wear a "united nations" flag pin. drives the local fundies nuts.

[Cyrano]

10. I was dragged kicking and screaming to this thing.

I've got to find an old communist flag lapel pin to use just in case this ever happens again.

[jukes]

11. good 1!

:toast:

[uppityperson]

18. deep breath, ask a leading question to followup with

then either run screaming or embrace the guy as a fellow librul.

Edited to add I understand what you are saying and feeling. I have had the same thing happen to me. Sometimes it gets to be too much, armchair "patriots" that flaunt the flag rather than every actually DOING anything positive. My assumptions have bit me a couple times, turns out the people are ok, but overall I know what you mean.

[tocqueville]

8. people that need to "show" that they are patriotic...

usually aren't, but often make the best traitors

my question would have bben : "Why ? was there any doubt about it ?"

[Iblis]

9. So now the American flag is offensive?

I'm with Bryant on this. Who gave Bush, et al possession of the flag; more importantly, who conceded the flag?

You didn't take the time to find out what his beliefs were, but immediately branded him as the enemy.
Why? Is this 'tolerance'? Is this 'enlightened'? Was there anything in this guy's behavior to make you think he was as you characterized him?

You were in the same meeting with peers, but you villanized him. Were you in there to mop the floors? If not you were probably wearing a suit and had the same concerns business-wise that he did. How are you right and him wrong if you didn't speak two words to him?

hmm.

[Cyrano]

20. It's a throw back to the Vietnam era when Nixon et al. "stole" the flag.

They started wearing flag lapel pins that in effect was a statement that said, "I'm a real American and you're not." (It was one of the reasons for all the flag burning back then.)

For many years, the lapel pin thing went away, but Karl Rove fully understands the value of symbols. So BushCo has brought back the flag lapel pin.

Many Dem politicians also wear one to counter the fact that the thugs are wearing them.

I don't know whether or not you were around during the Vietnam era, but my reaction is automatic and comes from the gut. Added to that is the fact that people I know who walked around wearing a flag lapel pin back then were screaming assholes.

[Iblis]

22. Well, then count me as a Screaming Asshole then.

Judge me as you will.

Once again, did Nixon 'steal' the flag or did you give it up?

Doesn't matter I guess, since you will judge me by the clothes that I wear and your gut, and not reasoned dialogue.

L
EDIT: I was around back then, but I'm living right now in 2006--I can't afford to live my life my 'throwback' fashions--unless of course it's my Converse All-Stars! :-)

[Cyrano]

32. I guess we're going to have to agree to disagree.

[BooScout]

34. Oh this is just stupid...

My mother wears those little lapel pins all the time. She's a raving Liberal. I know a lot of Liberals that wear them.... albiet most of them are women. Conservatives don't own the flag. Liberals can still fly it and wear it if they want. Not a thing wrong with it....unless you wrap yourself in in. Btw she's a patriot too.

[Iblis]

42. Thank you.

I was really beginning to worry about myself and this website.

I'm not COMPLETELY insane. :-)

[BooScout]

50. Welcome to DU

:hi:

This is for Cyrano.....:patriot: }(

[madame defarge]

12. Try this line...

Someone here on DU posted this as something he/she wants to use as a bumper sticker. I think it's very appropriate for those who wear the patriot badge to support this regime...

"Blind alligiance to a failed leadership is not patriotism..."

[Duer 157099]

14. I have a question:

One day I was in San Francisco and took a detour to Fisherman's Wharf when I wasn't expecting to. It was chilly, so I went looking for an inexpensive hooded sweatshirt. I found one, with "San Francisco" across the chest, and a little US flag on the sleeve.

I bought it and still wear it often.

Should I stop wearing it? It makes me feel badly that showing our flag has become almost a shameful thing (shameful to be mistaken for a right-wing supporter, that is).

[Cyrano]

21. Why would I have a problem with that sweater? Sounds fine to me.

[Iblis]

24. Because it has that oh so offensive symbol on it.

I guess.

[Cyrano]

36. Iblis, let me say this to you. Sigh. Goodbye.

[Iblis]

45. Well at least you went back and edited your original post.

No matter how awkward it looks.

Next time, take a deep breath. If you were concerned enough to ask why, instead of clinging to the past and losing a chance to find out who he is, pursue things a wee bit further.

[Duer 157099]

28. Cool. So a flag patch is seen differently than a flag lapel pin?

I hope so, I like this sweatshirt!

Plus, I like messing with the minds of people who know how liberal I am, and then see me wearing something with the flag on it.

They get cognitive dissonance.

[uppityperson]

29. The problem is not wearing a flag, but how it is done.

Not just the action, but the meaning behind it. Show the flag, wear the flag if you want, but also do more to be patriotic than just wear a flaggie.

[Iblis]

30. Once again, how do you know unless you have a dialogue?

Cyrano made some VERY severe judgements on someone based on nothing but "his gut".

A few minutes of discussion, and he may have found and ally or an enemy; he'll never know now.
Is this the "enlightened", "progressive" approach that I assumed people on this board stood for?

Just curious.

L

[uppityperson]

33. could be that C has talked with people at these luncheons before

or had contact with them otherwise. I am giving C the benefit of the doubt about knowing more, perhaps heard this person talking with others, having had more experience with this group overall, than is sharing here. Yes, it sounds like C did not talk in particular with this guy directly, and may have made assumptions. However, I still give the benefit of the doubt.

Edited to respond to your edit: Yes, a few minutes polite conversation is a good thing to have with others. It can help us clear up misconceptions. A few minutes polite conversation on forums is good to have also, can clear up misconceptions.

[Iblis]

41. well, I can only go by what he's posted and my "gut"

Just like him.

This is the kind of stuff that worries me about the Democratic Party in general and this forum in particular: I see attacks against people all the time for nothing more than saying "I love America" or wearing a flag pin or supporting the troops-however they may be doing it. Don't people see that some of these people are the ones that need talking to and educating more than ever? Why do you think the Dems have lost so much? The Repubs can freely show that the Dems and the Left hate America, and how can they prove it? Exactly.

Unless that person really DOES hate America, which it's his right to say I guess.

[uppityperson]

49. How do you mean "the repubs freely shosw...hate America"?

Who is attacking whom for supporting the troops? What does "supporting the troops" mean to you? Are you saying Dems have lost so much because repubs what? Co-opted patriotic symbols rather than patriotic actions? I don't understand you, what you are saying.

[Iblis]

58. I'm saying that there's something to all that "Hearts and Minds" talk

see: What's the matter with Kansas?

I really don't have time to break it all down for you. All I can say is you must be lucky to live where being against the war and being patriotic are not seen as opposing ideals.

hello from Flyover Country!

L

[uppityperson]

61. You make insinuations, and "don't have time to break it all down"?

How about explaining what you mean rather than sending me off to Amazon to buy a book or trying to distract by changing the topic to where I live?

[Bridget Burke]

51. Perhaps you should switch to Lite Beer...or just get more exercise.

In the short run, pick clothing that de-emphasizes your "gut."

Poor Iblis, losing sleep about the America Haters at DU...

[Iblis]

53. Poor Bridget

Nothing else here. Just poor Bridget.

L

[July]

66. And what is your view of people who find the flag unimportant?

Not the country or the Constitution, but the flag?

I wish people would pay more attention to the documents that form the basis of our system of government than they do to the flag, an identifying symbol that every nation has.

And to me it's a distortion of a normal citizen's role to talk about loving or hating one's country (whatever country, not just the U.S.). To me that idea brings in more emotion than we need when thinking and talking about our country. One can appreciate what one's country offers, one can enjoy its opportunities, beauty, etc., but why must we "love" it, or if we don't love it, why are we considered to "hate" it? Our country is US, according to the founding documents, or, in other words, it is what we have made and maintained. It's not a god, a family member, or an entity outside of us, and when we get caught up in demanding respect for a piece of cloth instead of for the rights that came first, we lose direction as a nation and as a democracy.

[Duer 157099]

31. Educating the willfully ignorant is my patriotic duty! :-)

And I take it seriously!

[uppityperson]

35. me too. Dissent and questioning are patriotic

[Cyrano]

39. As I said in the OP, it was the wrong time and place. I should have just

left it alone.

[Duer 157099]

43. I wasn't dissing you, btw

I also have a visceral reaction to those flag lapel pins, and maybe that's part of why I have not stopped wearing the flag patch shirt -- it challenges my own preconceptions.

[INDIA]

16. Uhhhhh...

You must be pretty sensitive to let something like that bother you. I have no idea what would make you upset with an American flag, other than the fact that Bushies tend to wear it and flaunt it more often. In my experience, Democrats, (well, probably not the dems on this website) are proud to display the flag too, who fly the flag in their yards, wear flag t-shirts, bandannas etc. Hell, at the Kerry rally I went to in '04 the stars and stripes were EVERYWHERE!!! I actually think that an American flag lapel is much more tasteful than a ratty t-shirt, bumper sticker, handkerchief etc.

Hey, in the future, don't let little things like this get your blood pressure up. Just because our government is fucked up now, doesn't mean we can't be proud to display a flag representing 200+ years of a pretty cool country. Peace.

[Cyrano]

26. See posting #20 which explains my reaction.

[DemoTex]

17. Remarque addressed his type in "All Quiet on the Western Front."

The wisest were just the poor and simple people. They knew the war to be a misfortune, whereas those who were better off, and should have been able to see more clearly what the consequences would be, were beside themselves with joy (my emphasis).

Katczinsky said that was a result of their upbringing. It made them stupid. And what Kat said, he had thought about... (skip ahead).

While they continued to write and talk, we saw the wounded and the dying. While they taught that duty to one's country is the greatest thing, we already knew that death-throes are stronger. But for all that we were no mutineers, no deserters, no cowards -- they were very free with all these expressions. We loved our country as much as they; we went courageously into every action; but also we distinguished the false from the true, we had suddenly learned to see. And we saw that there was nothing of their world left. We were all at once terribly alone; and alone we must see it through.

"All Quiet on the Western Front," Erich Maria Remarque, excerpts from pages 15,16,& 17.

To the summer soldier and the sunshine patriot I am tempted to bark aloud. I am tempted a response somewhere between "Get thee to the front!" and "The only support our soldiers really appreciate is fire support," but I usually hold my tongue, too. If your "patriot", in his $800 suit, was in his mid-to-late 50s, and did not serve in Viet Nam, then chances are there is a name on The Wall of the real patriot who took his place. Thomas Paine was right, these are times that try men's souls.

[Iblis]

27. Once again, you are judging someone you don't even know

AND someone who Cyrano acknowledged he didn't "speak two words to".

This is where we are now? This is what is going on in America?

L

[DemoTex]

40. I know some true patriots and here is the real deal ...

Most would wear a flag pin, but none .. not one single soul .. would ever say that he/she was wearing said flag to demonstrate patriotism. Patriotism is demonstrated elsewhere. It is hiding behind the flag, not displaying it, that is the central issue in this case. Anyone who would tell a total stranger that he is wearing a flag pin (or a Silver Star or DFC pin, for that matter) to show his patriotism is woefully ignorant of the meaning of that much abused word. When Samuel Johnson opined that "Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel," he was talking about the showy display of maudlin emotion (like wearing a flag to prove patriotism), not the courageous acts described by Eric Marie Remarque and Wilbur Owen.

[Iblis]

44. Oh.

Well, as long as you have the "real deal" I guess I'm done then.

L

[uppityperson]

46. What is your problem? Why are you being so rude to responders?

We try to explain what patriotism is and isn't, how to show or be patriotic and you attack? Why?

[Iblis]

48. Wasn't being rude.

I'm just curious about assumptions people make.

I'm also wary of statements like the "real deal".

Sorry if you took that as being rude.

I guess I'm also a little irritated by a post that implies that just because someone has an American flag that they are somehow a "kool-aid drinker" or "summer soldier".

Sorry.

L

[uppityperson]

52. It's ok to be "wary of real deal" but not flag wearers at a meeting?

[Iblis]

55. I'll say this real slow.

there is a difference between suspicion and judgement.

At least I'm still asking questions.

I'm done now though.

L

[uppityperson]

57. pshaw.

I do hope you are done as it seems you like to rile up folks, pass judgement yet condemn those who might judge others, not converse.

[Bridget Burke]

59. "Iblis" is Islam's main devil, also known as "Shaitan."

One of his Christian titles: The Father of Lies.

[uppityperson]

60. yeah, I was wondering if we'd crossed paths before.

[Cyrano]

64. Way to go, uppityperson. He'll go for the last word. Try ignoring him.

[uppityperson]

65. search is my friend

as is ignore. The last one who came through took to ignoring me, pointedly, while in other guises. Now that was annoying.

[Cyrano]

56. Hey, DemoTex. I read your profile. Thank you for your service, bro.

[Jara sang]

25. Did he have a tri-corner hat?

Something tells me there is going to be a lot freepers locked up in insane asylums professing their patriotism after the 2006 election. They will be pissing themselves and drooling uncontrollably while wearing mock Paul Revere outfits that they pieced together with newspaper and their own excrement.

[1620rock]

37. Get a flag pin and wear it upside-down. eom

[Sequoia]

38. This "liberal" I work with wear a stupid flag pin

I asked him why because everyone will think he's a conservative repub; fake dem and all that. (Plus, don't wear stripes with checks...fashion horror.) Then we have this other guy at work whose flag pen is even bigger than the chimps and little flag pin guy has the nerve to put down the bigger flag pin guy. What I said to him was, well, guess he's more patriotic than you. Just pulling his leg ya know.

[Balbus]

47. If you can't get help from Charter,

get help from somewhere.

[Cyrano]

63. Huhhh???

[callous taoboy]

54. When it comes to patriotism I'm with Charles Chaplin-

The little tramp, upon visiting the U.S. for the first time, was struck by how silly patriotism is. I mean, I love the U.S., but then I've never been to Europe.

[Squatch]

62. I wear an American flag every day on my right sleeve

Just like this guy:



I am proud to wear that thing daily, 1) as a symbol of my patriotism and 2) because I have to (lol).