Grand Rebbe Dies

[mdmc]

Hey DU, I saw the OP on the Amish and thought of a local religious sect - the Hasidics. The Hasidics are the biggest voting block in Orange County, NY. Whoever the Grand Rebbe supports, wins Orange County hands down. They have a 95% voter turnout. they are awesome at using their voice to support their lifestyle. We could learn from them, just like we can learn from the Amish!



http://www.recordonline.com/archive/2006/04/25/news-camobit-04-25.html
http://www.recordonline.com/archive/2006/04/25/1.html
http://www.recordonline.com/archive/2006/04/25/news-camkjscene-04-25.html

[leftyladyfrommo]

1. Wow! Those photos are just awsome.

[xchrom]

2. it's very sad about his going on.

and those pictures are incredible.

[TygrBright]

3. Gee. The WOMEN must not have liked him much...

...what are we supposed to be learning from these guys, again?

ironically,
Bright

[mdmc]

9. we can learn how to get out the vote, for starters

how to live without debt, how to live without outsourcing / offshoring.

Why do you think that Hasidim women didn't like the Rebbe?:shrug:

[TygrBright]

19. Well, apparently not one of them bothered to show up...

...for the man's funeral. Sheeeeeeesh... that argues a pretty high level of dislike.

obviously,
Bright

[NYCGirl]

20. No, they are not allowed to be there with the men. NT

[TygrBright]

31. Oh. And this is what we're supposed to learn from them?

Political cohesion is a wonderful thing but I'd prefer to learn it from those who DON'T practice coercion in private, thanks.

firmly,
Bright

[NYCGirl]

34. I said nothing about learning from them. That was someone else.

I think they're plenty weird.

[mdmc]

36. well, i think that it is pretty cool how they get out to vote

but i hear you loud and clear. peace and low stress.

[BurtWorm]

21. There's strict separation of the sexes in Satmar society.

(Not defending, just explaining.)

[mdmc]

24. yes thanks for explaining burtworm

[derby378]

43. If she's not your mom, your sister, or your wife, HANDS OFF

If you are an observant Hasidim, that is.

[ikojo]

64. Many hasidic families, because they have very large

families, do receive some sort of government subsidy. Men are encouraged to study Torah while women are left to raise kids and earn a living.

[BurtWorm]

69. This would explain why thousands are hanging around a dead man's home

on a weekday morning and afternoon. I wondered where there means of support were. But are you sure it's a "government" subsidy? Do you mean they're on welfare?

[Minnesota Libra]

4. Maybe we could learn a few things from each other, namely..............

....how to be involved in the political process and they could learn how to involve their women from us.:shrug:

[NYCGirl]

5. No, women will never be equal in that world. They are not even allowed

to worship next to the men. The women are in a separate room.

[Minnesota Libra]

6. And, of course, that was my point.......nt

[mdmc]

11. The women wouldn't have it any other way, nycgirl

why is this wrong? Why can't Hasidic women be allowed to follow tradition. If they don't dig it, they can always leave the Hasidim and join the liberal jewish sects.:shrug:

[NYCGirl]

13. I didn't say it was wrong, but it is a fact. As far as liberal Jewish

sects, my family is Reform — and the liberal Jewish "sects" (Conservative and Reform) are by far the larger group now.

[mdmc]

15. they sure are.

In orange county, i would bet that only 5% of all jews are hasidic. While I am a liberal progressive democrat, I give a great deal of respect to any group of people that follow a wisdom tradition, including the hasidem.

I think that you know that i wasn't using "sect" in any dishonorable way, but I just wanted to clarify.

[MelliMel]

32. You are forgetting about the

Modern Orthodox and the non-Hasidic Orthodox. Not all Orthodox are hasidim.

Yes, Reform is growing, intermarrying, and forgettign about their Judaism. Yay.

At least Conservative still adheres to some halachah.

[NYCGirl]

35. Reform is the future because we believe in complete gender equality. NT

[MelliMel]

37. For some.

And I am glad that Reform is actually reaching out to intermarrieds in an effort to keep 'em Jewish instead of falling into the secular wasteland. Most Reform Jews come back only when they have kids and they want a bar or bat mitzvah service.

Funny how bar/bat mitzvah means ridiculously overpriced fete and not, "You are now a son/daughter of the mitzvot".

Why not just have the party without pretending they care about Torah?

[Phx_Dem]

78. you know there is no need to condescend

to us jews that don't happen to be orthodox.

[rockymountaindem]

38. Yes and no

On the one hand, Reform is now the largest branch of Judaism. On the other hand, as our friend indicated, many Reform intermarry with non-Jews and the faith dies out in their family line rather quickly if not immediately after that. As a Jew, this trend troubles me as it means our numbers will continue to decline.

However, I read in a Jerusalem Post report that the Conservative branch is the fastest growing, both proportionately to its size and overall. Reform Judaism seems to be losing the luster it once had. Furthermore, it is also the branch of Judaism with the lowest birthrate, while Orthodox and Hasids, around the diaspora and in Israel, have very high birthrates. While Reform is riding high in 2006 (and arguably has been for a generation), I for one don't know if the movement is going to be able to perpetuate itself.

[MelliMel]

41. I think they are losing their luster because

Reform stresses nothing. Reform has slowly been moving back to the center in recent years by incorporating more Hebrew in their services and stressing a little more adherence to Jewish Law.

Jews who were raised in even slightly observant households remember the wonderfulness of Shabbat and holidays and are looking for that again. They aren't always finding it in Reform (Shabbat what? Huh? What's that?), but they are finding it in the Conservative branch. And yet Conservative is liberal enough to keep them coming back.

I too am concerned about the declining number of Jews. It only makes it harder to fight against forced Christianity in the public square.

[rockymountaindem]

44. I hope conservatism and orthodoxy can bring more Jews back into the fold

both quantitatively and in terms of increased observance. Personally, I don't know if I would call myself conservative, but I wouldn't call myself Reform. OTOH, I do respect the Reform movement insofar as it has made the faith more relevant to the modern world and is a channel for many people to access the religion. My quarrel is not with the Refor movement itself, but with people who think calling themselves "Reform Jews" is a license to *completely* stop acting like a Jew, and to stop functioning within the community, while still thinking that they're "one of the tribe". I guess one might even call such people apostates, not Reform, but that's how they think of themselves.

However, I am still concerned about the declining number of Jews in the United States, although we seem to have added 1 million Jews worldwide since 1945. That's something to be happy about. I just keep reminding myself of two things. Firstly, that God chose us not because we are a mighty people but because we were/are few in number, so that all our glory would be attributed to His strength, not our strength in numbers. Secondly, God said he would make us as numerous as the stars in the heavens, He just didn't say when ;)

On edit: Welcome to DU!

[MelliMel]

46. What no bacon wrapped scallops?

LOL. I always love hearing, "We are Reform so we don't keep kosher". As if it is mandatory.

I always tell my kids, we are the Chosen-choosing people. When we were asked if we wanted the Torah, we said yes. We chose G-d and G-d's Torah and that is what 'chosen' to me means.

Why am I suddenly reminded of that line from The Big Lebowski? 3,000 years of beautiful history, from Moses to Sandy Koufax...you're damn right I'm living in the past!

[mdmc]

58. welcome to DU mellimel

and thanks for your posts on this thread. I doubt that you've ever been to Orange County, NY have you?

I would also like to ask you about Joementum (Joe Lieberman). I know many orthodox jews that love him and think that he is the best chance for the dems in 2008. Any thoughts?

[MelliMel]

60. I have been to Williamsburg

and it was very foreign to me. Beautiful, but foreign. LOL. Half of my father's family is Chasidic, but they are Chabad Lubavitch, so during my trip to Crown Heights, I was more comfortable. I was raised Litvish/Mitnagdim, as my father was and my mother too.

We respect the chasidim, but disagree with them in some areas, especially the rather unnatural worship of rebbe Schneerson for Chabadniks and the G-d-like qualities attributed to the rebbe for the Satmar.

As to Joe Lieberman, I like him, but I disagree with him on the subject of Iraq. Probably because I am religious, I am more or a centrist Democrat. As an example I am for unions and higher minimum wages, but I am not a socialist.

Lieberman's chances are not good for 2 reasons, both related to his religion:

1)There are plenty of anti-semitic bigots on the right.

2)There seems to be a growing, and alarming, anti-semitic movement on the left.

[mdmc]

68. interesting take on Joementum...

peace and low stress... and enjoy DU! It is a great place.

[ikojo]

65. In many Reform congregations to be a good Jew

equates to being a good liberal. Is it any wonder then that so many drop out of Judaism?

[Phx_Dem]

77. that's a really strange comment

77% of jews voted to Kerry, whether they were reform, conservative, orthodox whatever.

[Phx_Dem]

76. the largest conservative movement

is egalitarian as well.

[mntleo2]

22. Actually...

I have gone to the mosque with women and, as a person who believes in equal treatment especially in religion, I found out something surprising about myself. Worshipping God exclusively with women made my concept of God more...feminine. I am a Christian and regularly attend church, and it really did make God closer to me. That is one good side benefit from worshipping only with one sex.

I remember reading once about the Dephi Oracle, and that women had an exclusive place there as well. Now I think I know why.

My 2 cents...

Cat In Seattle

[mdmc]

26. thanks for your post

i love your sig.:)

[MelliMel]

33. I don't feel unequal.

And I worship on the other side of the room. I love how non-Jews and non-Orthodox Jews like projecting their own feels of on us Orthodox.

Some of us like the traditional setting and it actually bothers people that we aren't all screaming about it. Too bad for you. You don't have to attend an Orthodox shul if you don't want to.

[rockymountaindem]

40. Good for you

My shul, which was until recently the only one in town, has a reform service on Friday night and a Conservative service on Saturday morning. While we do not practice the seperation of the sexes during prayer (I can never remember the Hebrew word for this), I can respect those who do. In fact, someone told me we were the only congregation in the country with a female Rabbi, Cantor and congregation prez. at one point. However now only the Cantor is a woman, as the Rabbi has moved into the world of academia and the former president retired from her position.

[MelliMel]

42. Mechitzah

That's the word. :)

I respect those who do not like the seperation. But I just wish that many of them (not you) could respect me and not assume that I am oppressed.

Yeah, I wear a sheitel, never wear pants, sit in the other side of the shul, fuss over dinners and have 5 kids. But I don't feel oppressed.

There is a Reform Congregation in L.A. County that had a female rabbi and Cantor, thought the rabbi was a student rabbi. I had met her once at a bar mitzvah in my shul (!). She was wonderful and brilliant. She didn't think I was oppressed either. LOL.

[Name removed]

55. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

57. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[phylny]

62. I don't believe the women of KJ and other Hassidic areas around

here do feel oppressed at all. I just feel really sorry for them when I see their husbands driving around when it's ten degrees in their warm cars/SUVs/minivans and then three block away, I see a woman in her coat and dress struggling in the snow with a stroller, one baby in it, and two toddlers by its side because they're not permitted to drive.

I asked our builder, who is a Hassidic Jew and a very nice guy, about this, and he shrugged his shoulders and said, "There are buses."

Brrrrrrr....

[Raksha]

49. That's good, because I never have and I never will.

Attend an Orthodox shul, that is. I was raised a Reform Jew--okay, maybe I better qualify that. I was raised pretty much nothing, other than "we don't believe in Jesus." That was the extent of my Jewish education until I was about 11 years old and began going to the local Reform synagogue on Saturday mornings on my own. What little religious education I had (in high school) was at the Reform religious school. Other than that, I am almost completely self-taught about Judaism.

The traditional second-class status of women in Judaism has always been a major turn-off for me. When I was eighteen years old I innocently (or ignorantly) walked into an Orthodox synogogue on a weekday, forgetting all about denominations for the moment. I was treated very rudely by the regulars there--all old men as you might expect. I vowed then and there that I would NEVER, under any circumstances, set foot in any Jewish house of worship where the women are separated from the men. I have kept that vow to this day, and it is absolute and unconditional--meaning I don't give a damn whose funeral it is. For those who say, "But you'll never know how spiritual it is unless you try it" all I say that I don't think I'm missing much of anything, and if I am I don't care. Spiritual experiences can also be found in contexts where women are not put down but HONORED--Wicca, for example.

[MelliMel]

50. How is it second class?

I pray on my side of the shul, my husband on his side. To me, it's not second class.

And how are women put down? Where exactly are women told they are less than? Women are not required to fulfill some mitzvot and men are required to fulfill many more.

I feel pretty honored, but I guess I have a high enough self esteem that I do not need to be told every living day.

[Raksha]

66. Having a separate women's section next to the men's

is a recent innovation. It used to be at the back, behind a screen (the mechizah) because Orthodox men are evidently so dirty-minded they can't concentrate on their prayers if there are any women in sight or within earshot.

How are women put down? In the men's daily prayers, where they thank God "for not having made me a woman." NOT "for having made me a man." For NOT having made him a woman!!! How is that NOT degrading? You are entitled to your opinion, of course, but I'm also entitled to mine and I do find that degrading and offensive, especially when you consider that the corresponding women's prayer is one thanking God "for having created me according to Thy will." In other words, "I ain't much, but I'm all that I've got." How is that NOT offensive?

I'm glad you have high self-esteem, but I DON'T and I need every last drop of it that I've got! If a religion doesn't empower me, I've got no use for it. I despise all forms of religious fundamentalism because they ALL put down on women. When it comes to Judaism, though, I tend to take it a lot more personally than when the subject is Islamic or Christian fundamentalism.

[MelliMel]

67. Do you have any idea why they say that prayer?

It's because they are thankful that they have been commanded to fulfill so many more mitzvot.

[mdmc]

10. their women vote

:shrug: There women are respected, cherished.:shrug:

[abluelady]

7. The Only Thing You Will Learn From Them

is they are just like the right wing Christians with their beliefs. Their bible comes before their constitution.

[Burried News]

8. Your post made me remember. Israel has no constitution.

Interesting.

[mdmc]

12. The Hasidim are not at all Israeli

I thought that they opposed the formation of an Israeli state.

[RaleighNCDUer]

14. That's right. Unlike the Christian who look to the 2nd coming,

who think that the establishment of Israel was a necessary step to pave the way for the return, the Hassidm believe that it is the Messiah who will re-establish Israel, so anyone who tries to re-establish the state is, by definition, a false Messiah.

[mdmc]

16. yes! how do you know this?

[RaleighNCDUer]

17. Well, frankly speaking, as a lapsed reform congregation Jew and

current atheist, the Hassidm are probably as foreign to me as the Amish are to most Christians, but I have read a fair amount about the movement. So I am simply regurgitating what I've read, not known from personal experience.

[mdmc]

18. thanks for your posts

I love to study wisdom traditions and the hasidem are located in my community.

[Raksha]

51. It's my understanding there was a brief anti-Zionist movement

among the ultra-Orthodox at the founding of the state of Israel in 1948, but it died out very quickly.

[MelliMel]

52. Still alive amongst the Satmars

and even amongst the residents of Mear Shearim in Jerusalem.

[Hawkeye-X]

23. As a lapsed Orthodox Jew...

where my grandfather grew up in a Satmar community in Hungary, and having davened (prayed) with the Grand Rebbe in the later years, I can tell you that Hasadic is very right-wing, and yes, they believe in the Bible before the US Constitution. My wife is from Borough Park, in NY, also raised strict Orthodox, but has since rebelled, finding her own independence. We can attest that they're friggin' nuts (as is her mother, but her dad is cool).

[BurtWorm]

25. There's something almost insect-like about their social behavior

The hive acting as one. I'm always amazed at how spontaneously organized their demonstrations are--like at wedding receptions, for instance, as well as this demonstration of grief. It's as though everyone knows exactly how to behave. There's no apparent self-consciousness. I can't imagine being in such a society myself.

[mdmc]

27. I was amazed at how easily they all came out to support

Chuck Schumer and Hillary Clinton. There was no doubt that (local boy) Howard Mills and Rick Lazio represented the hasidic community much better then Schumer or Clinton. The Hasidem supported the dems because the Dems were going to win

I found the whole thing very interesting.

[Hawkeye-X]

29. Yeah. Except they supported the Chimp.. twice.

From the grapevines I heard in '00 and in '04.

[mdmc]

30. how odd... I thought that they supported Gore and Kerry

not based on issues, but rather based on the fact that Gore and Kerry would easily win NYS.

[Hawkeye-X]

28. Heh.. I wish they'd get an anthropologist to study this behavior

and figure out wtf is going on :P

[annabanana]

39. fundamentalism

a danger abroad, a danger at home

[onenote]

45. don't know that much about the Satmar

It was my impression that while they're ultra-orthodox, they don't make a point about trying to force everyone to live the way they do. Which, if true, makes their form of fundamentalism a whole lot less dangerous than the crazy convert 'em or kill 'em strand that seems to be on the rise among Christian fundies.

onenote

[MelliMel]

47. Very true

And the only Jewish group that "evangelizes" to other Jews is Chabad Lubavitch. And they aren't rude about it.

[rockymountaindem]

48. Jews don't proselytize

The one time we forced another people to adopt our religion at the point of a sword, one of their second-generation decendants grew up to become King Herod. Then and now that was seen as a warning against the practice.

[Renew Deal]

53. The NYPD is preparing for riots.

They are worried about violence because two brothers are making claims to the leadership.

[MelliMel]

54. Yes the eldest and the 3rd eldest have very strong

followings, both believe that their respective rebbe should be THE rebbe.

[phylny]

61. And we were told the traffic was going to be a nightmare. The local

public school system gave the kids off.

I was worried as I had business in Monroe and Harriman today, but there was hardly any traffic. I think it's because they buried him so quickly.

[JVS]

56. Actually I find the idea of religious groups voting for candidates...

based on the leader's endorsement to be disturbing.

[mdmc]

59. i am amazed by it

but only when it opposes the gop

[The Straight Story]

63. The amish would tell em to get their lazy butts back to work

and get a haircut. Fields don't plow themselves ya know, idle time is the devil's playground, etc and so on.

:)

[Bridget Burke]

70. No, the Amish would NOT tell them what to do.

The Amish wish to live by their own rules, but they don't lecture others. And they can probably respect other "traditional" groups more than some of us "moderns."

[MelliMel]

73. The ever tolerant moderns

often are the least tolerant, especially if what they are to tolerate could be deemed "traditional".

[radwriter0555]

71. The other strange, inbred cult that still exists.... I can't imagine why.

They're a strange group of people.

[mdmc]

72. no stranger then deadheads

right?

[radwriter0555]

74. A LOT stranger than deadheads. Deadheads came and went and didn't

influence entire populations. They were a group of music fans, not a bizarre archaic cult basing their lives on strange and ancient, sexist, mysogenist rituals and a way of life harkening back hundreds of years and based on primative teachings and beliefs.

[mdmc]

75. deadheads didn't influence entire populations?

...basing their lives on strange and ancient....rituals... sounds like the dead to me.:shrug:

[radwriter0555]

79. trust me. deadheads did not influence entire populations...

They were cute and quaint, but... hardly influential.

Sorry!

[mdmc]

80. i disagree

micky hart played drums with African tribesman at Joe Campbell's funeral.