I'm still debating my republican cousin

[serryjw]

1) Have we ever been successful at 'nation building'?
2) What would have happened IF FDR didn't lie to us and take us into WWII?
3) Whom would have become the world's super power if we didn't enter WWII?

[stepnw1f]

1. How is This Equivalent to WWII? (nt)

[ceile]

2. I'm confused...

So the Japanese didn't bomb Pearl Harbor? It was all made up by FDR?

[serryjw]

4. FDR probably knew

http://www.independent.org/newsroom/article.asp?id=408

[meegbear]

5. Speculation that we had knowledge of Pearl Harbor and LIHOP ...

Not sure if it is true or not, but used as a "justification" for invading Iraq; how, I don't know.

[serryjw]

10. The conversation was all over the place

concerning 9-11 and justification for the invasion. He didn't care IF Saddam had WMD. He thinks that bringing 'democracy' to Iraq is what is important.

[xchrom]

20. but that was never, ever the reason.

weapons of mass destruction was the reason.

it had nothing, nothing to do with democratizing anything.

[Bandit]

29. Because that is against International Law

Defending from an eminent attack is not. That is why their story changed so very many times....

[The Backlash Cometh]

3. Japan? As he ever heard of Japan? Didn't we nation build them?

And ask him two more questions:

1) What would have happened to us if we didn't stop George Bush from lying to us to get us into WWIII?

2) What will the world do to a superpower that continually attacks other countries preemptively?

[serryjw]

8. Most of Europe had some form of democracy before Hitler

So our re-building Japan doesn't count. My question is have we EVER successfully 'nation built'?

[The Backlash Cometh]

11. Eh? Japan was a democracy before?

I thought we overthrew an emperor.

on edit: Wikipedia to the rescue:

Though inspired by the constitutions of Europe, the new Meiji Constitution was not as democratic as some had initially hoped. The emperor was given broad and vague "reserve powers" which in turn were exploited by the prime minister and various cliques around the emperor. By the 1930s the Japanese cabinet was largely composed of pseudo-fascist military leaders who used the emperor and his supposed divinity as an ultra-nationalistic rallying point for expansion of the empire. When World War II erupted, the emperor was the symbol soldiers were indoctrinated to fight and die for. The emperor himself was hidden from sight, however, and his actual role during this period is disputed. It is commonly believed he was largely sidelined by the military. Controversy still remains as to the role Hirohito played in commanding Japanese forces during the Second Sino-Japanese War and the Pacific War.

A military dictatorship, perhaps, without a dictator?

[serryjw]

23. Stand corrected

Was living in Japan prior to WWII as tyrannical as living under Saddam?

[The Backlash Cometh]

28. Well, er, Japan attacked. Sadaam was bluffing.

Subtle difference. Thank God we had an intelligence community that knew what was going on. Too bad we didn't have any checks and balances in place to stop an evil American dictator who overrode them.

[AllieB]

6. Comparing WWII to Iraq is an apples-oranges comparison

Obviously, your cousin does not understand history.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

7. Sounds like you're letting your cousin control the debate.

Don't do that.

[gratuitous]

9. Nation building?

You might ask Germany, France, Italy and England about the salutary effect the United States' intervention had after World War II.

But as for your cousin's "hypotheticals," I fail to see how they in any way excuse the actual consequences of the disastrous policies of George W. Bush. They seem to be of the genre of the old riddle: How many legs does a dog have if you call his tail a leg? Answer: Four. Just because you call his tail a leg, doesn't make it a leg.

[serryjw]

13. We didn't destroy a country to rebuild it in our image

But we are now.Correct me if I am wrong but what we didn in the above countries was a good thing.

[gratuitous]

17. I probably misunderstood what you were getting at

I presumed it was your cousin saying that nation building never works or something like that, and that what Bush was doing wasn't nation building. Actually, now that I think about it, I can't fathom why the topic of nation building would come up at all.

I was trying to say that the U.S. had a good experience in nation building in certain European countries after World War II. But the good that came out of that experience was mostly due to a certain deference that the U.S. gave to the peoples of those countries to take our assistance and use it to their best advantage as they saw fit. There were plenty of other examples where U.S. intervention in another country's government didn't have such good results: Iran, Chile, Guatemala, and Haiti to name just a few.

[serryjw]

22. No, I'm saying nation building doesn't work

He was OK with us invading any country to bring stability to the world.( RE-BUILDING nations is not the same as nation building like we are in Iraq

[gratuitous]

24. Nation building as practiced by the Bushistas surely doesn't work

Their arrogance and incompetence have proved to be a deadly combination and has sown hatred and discontent wherever it's practiced. I'm certainly in favor of a certain benevolent assistance or even intervention; we have an obligation based on any number of considerations to help out where we can: our good neighborliness in the community of nations; our own national wealth; as an example to other countries, etc.

But with the Bushistas, their concept of nation-building is to decapitate a society then walk away from the mess, or mismanage it so badly that even a return to the status quo ante seems preferable to the disorder and chaos we leave in our wake. This administration’s inability to acknowledge its own errors and flat-out refusal to consult outside its own little circle virtually guarantees that they will fail in whatever they turn their greedy little blood-stained hands to.

My advice is that instead of debating the amorphous concept of nation building (Is all foreign aid “nation building”? What about friendly advice? Or speaking out against documented human rights abuses?), turn the topic to Bush administration incompetence. After all, there are plenty of examples and facts at hand to demonstrate that whatever constitutes “nation building,” it’s a sure bet that the Bushistas will fuck it up.

[IMSA]

12. You might want to bring up the point...

That the Republican party was taking money from Nazi lobbyists to keep us from entering WWII.

RRC

[Finder]

14. Debate with points not questions...

1)We have never attempted to nation build on our own except for our own country. Even then, without slavery, the country would be a lot smaller and less prosperous.

2)Fascism would have taken over and we would have a scary military/industrial complex....oops..an even more tyrannical military/industrial complex.

3)China

[mrcheerful]

15. WTF? What does WWII have to do with today? If amerika had

not of declared war on Japan and its allie Germany, There would have been 2 world leaders, Imperial Japan ruling Asia and Nazi Germany ruling the west. When Amerika entered WWII Nazi germany was on the verge of domination f europe, there were only 2 countries fighting germany the USSR and england. Same with Japan, the only place they didn't hold were the Hawaiian islands and china, though china was on the verge of collapse. BTW, FDR did not lie the usa into WWII, he did not mention we were going to be attacked before hand because no one knew where Japan was going to hit, most thought Japan would hit either mid way or the Philippians first. This all started because in 1941 the pukes still thought Adolf Hitler was the greatest leader since Ceaser and they didn't want him taken out of power. Tell that to your puke cousin see how he likes it that the pukes were in bed with the Nazis.

[A HERETIC I AM]

26. Actually, we declared war on Japan and subsequently Germany declared war

on us. We didnt declare war on both countries. There is also evidence that the Admirals of Japan KNEW FROM THE START that they had no hope of winning a war against the United States. I think it was Yamamoto who was quoted, after the Pearl Harbor attack, "I fear we have wakened a sleeping giant and filled him with a great resolve"

[Jara sang]

16. "Nation building" is code for "enriching corporations"

[skygazer]

18. Waste of time and breath

You will find when debating republicans that they continually use stale old RNC emails that distort and recast history to make their points while you actually do all the legwork and dig out all the real facts.

There's no sense in it.

WWII has absolutely nothing to do with Iraq and don't let your cousin steer you that way. You're simply doing all the work here while your cousin tosses nonsense at you and makes you run around like a rat in a wheel.

[Lexingtonian]

19. s/he's not too bright or informed, eh?

1) Have we ever been successful at 'nation building'?

When the locals thought that was a priority and did it themselves, yes. South Korea, West Germany, Japan, Philippines....

2) What would have happened IF FDR didn't lie to us and take us into WWII?

The lies didn't make the difference. Japan decided on full scale war with the U.S. without concern about lies.

3) Whom would have become the world's super power if we didn't enter WWII?

A British-French alliance in western Europe and Africa, Japan in eastern Asia, Russia between them, and the U.S. in the Americas.

Which is not that different from where we are headed now. Now we're realistically expecting China to dominate eastern Asia and Brazil to dominate in South America and parts of Africa.

[xchrom]

21. after we defeated the germans and the japanese -- they didn't blow

the shit out of us for the next however many years.

hunt down tourists in resorts and kill them.

germany and japan actually attacked us -- or japan did -- and were real threats to the u.s.

iraq never did -- iraq was never, ever a threat.

we hadn't blown the shit out of germany and japan for ten years before we went and beat the living hell out of stunningly inferior force.

[newportdadde]

25. Stop debating him its not worth your time he is one of the 34%

nothing will change his mind ever.

[Road Scholar]

27. A person with knowledge is never at the mercy of a person with

an arguement. Never.