Iraq: Beyond the Horizon, The Storm

[ProSense]

Published on Tuesday, April 25, 2006 by TruthDig

Iraq: Beyond the Horizon, The Storm

by Tom Hayden

Finally, climactic possibilities, if not the endgame, are ahead in Iraq. The peace movement can shape the outcome by maintaining a pressure role in close political races, blocking military recruiters on campuses, calling for the truth about the President’s impeachable offenses, and not giving up now that the Iraq War is mainstreamed into the center of national debate.

Politically, the most significant new development is Sen. John Kerry’s call for military withdrawal by the end of this year. Kerry stands a definite chance of filling the moral void in the present political process. When he steadfastly embraces his record as a young man, the message resonates in several ways. He reminds Americans that moral courage can turn history around, and that we need to listen more carefully today to those who were right ahead of their time. The similarities between then and now – especially the deaths of American soldiers for draft-dodging politicians who refuse to admit their mistakes – is a powerful background echo that will not go away.

Snip...

Kerry reflects a force greater than a single Senator. Not only is he a once and future presidential candidate, he is representative of those at the higher levels of power who regard the Iraq War as a setback for American geo-political interests. These establishment dissidents are numerous in the ranks of the Central Intelligence Agency and the upper echelons of the military. As a power elite in C. Wright Mills’ sense, they favor a more multilateral, multipolar approach to global stability. Increasingly they are showing signs of becoming unhinged at the counter-productive approaches of the Bush White House and the neoconservative hawks. They favor extrication from Iraq and the removal of Bush from the White House, in sequence or both at once.

In addition to whatever popular support he can generate, Kerry is the current candidate of this dissenting element of the power elite, as he was last November. In 1968, there were “the wise men,” a discreet gathering of corporate lawyers, diplomats and security strategists who advised President Johnson that the costs of Vietnam were greater than any of the benefits. In the phrase of Robert Lovett and Dean Acheson, their view was “to hell with the cheese, let’s get out of the trap.” LBJ dropped out of the presidential race, and subsequent U.S. policy was to withdraw American troops while escalating the secret bombing campaign. The fatal weakness in the strategy was the total inability of the South Vietnamese army to defend itself. Is the same scenario playing out today?

Snip...

This maneuvering should not be confused with a military withdrawal plan, but could lead to one if costs continue to outpace any benefits. Here is how:

more...

http://www.commondreams.org/views06/0425-26.htm

[rodeodance]

1. we do need a real moral leader (we do not have one now even if Jr.

imagines he is moral)

[mike_c]

2. if Kerry had called for troop withdrawal by the end of 2004...

...we'd be out of Iraq and Kerry would be president, IMO.

on edit: this is particulary frustrating because NOTHING has been accomplished in the interim-- if we should withdraw troops by 2006 then we should have withdrawn them by 2004. During the intervening two years nothing of substance has been achieved. What did all the people who died during those two years die for?

[Joe for Clark]

4. Good for you, Mike C

It is the question.

Joe

[ProSense]

9. Kerry called for something better:

No war. Now, as in 2004, Bush must act. If the troops are withdrawn in 2006, there will be no need to ponder this same question in 2007.

[MH1]

11. Did you know that in his 2004 campaign he called for a plan that would

begin major troop withdrawals 6 months after he took office as President? (i.e. June 2005)

You may be right that calling for the troops to be out by end of 2004 would have helped the campaign (I don't know, but let's say you may be); but there is no way in hell that Kerry's calling for it would have actually made it happen. It may be that Kerry was too honest to even consider calling for it in those circumstances - instead he simply put forth a plan that was rational and achievable. That people didn't "get it" because the media were too busy talking about him looking "French" and windsurfing (competently, while Bush was falling off a bicycle), well that just shows where the real problem was in 2004 - the media.

[Joe for Clark]

3. I know you mean well - and God bless you.

PLEASE do not use Kerry as a rallying point.

He was such a brave man, not just during the war, but after - I listen to him in the interviews after the war, and I think - what a great man - and he was then.

He lost it though - and about 4,000 kids will die because he lost it.

Unfortunately, one of those kids is mine - SO NO KERRY!

I don't think badly of him - he just belongs in the Senate. He was a great man, he just couldn't win. And we better win.

Kerry blew it on the Colorado river - he doesn't speak for me, for a lot of us. Fortunately, many dems do think so too.

I do wish you well,

Joe

[ProSense]

5. PLEASE do not use Kerry as a rallying point.?

Seemed it worked on you! It's brilliant!

[Joe for Clark]

6. Why do you say that - I want to know!!

Dude my mother father and all my older brothers fought some war, somewhere.

That is NOT brilliant -

Just a luck of the draw - but I do KNOW war - I lived with it, and still do.

Worked on me - who the fuck are you???

I know war - from every angle - do you??

Joe

Fill me it - what did I miss.

[ProSense]

7. My apologies!

Sorry for the tragedy of your losing a child. I seemed to have missed that point on first read.

[Joe for Clark]

8. I did NOT lose a child - not yet anyway -

I really do want to know.

I just know the military - top down - an unfortunate consequence of my childhood.

I am curious, and I WANT TO KNOW.

Please do not interpret my post in any other way.

Joe

[ProSense]

10. You expect to lose your child? Wouldn't that be reason to support

any withdrawal attempt? I read your post and attempted to understand it, not change it's meaning. I did start the thread.

Everyone has a personal story. Service, tragedy, etc. Not everyone twist facts to discredit others.

[Joe for Clark]

14. Man, DO I FAVOR WITHDRAWL - do I.

DO you understand what that means??

Do I think Troy dies this summer, I have a bad feeling. - Has to do with "third time a charm" and all that psycho babel.

DId I go to him with CO, and I'll hire the lawyer and all that - of course I did.

Let me tell you, I saw my fathers eyes in my boy that day - so scary.

We are the adults in this room, aren't we??


This is going to be a really, really bad summer if we are not.


Joe

[dogday]

39. I understand what you are going through

and wish and hope only the best for your son and your family... My son in on his first deployment to Iraq, should finish in November.... I worry all the time, I can't help that, it is always in the back of my mind....

My thoughts are with you.....

[Joe for Clark]

40. I understand the worry.

Checked that damn site every Friday.

He gets out in November?

Keep him out -

I looked into it carefully - you can hire a lawyer and keep him out on CO for at least a year. Didn't work for my kid - I never calculated that independent streak - maybe you can.

Fridays are bad days for us, otherwise.

I so pray for you and all of us in similar positions. Especially this summer.

Joe

[Joe for Clark]

41. The thing that made me feel a little better -

I got the kid a wireless laptop - so he could email me and I wouldn't have to wait til the Friday casualty update - It is about 500 bucks and it kept my sanity last deployment.

The other thing - his unit probably will have a news letter - GET THE NEWSLETTER.

You see the pictures of some of those kids - it does make it better a little.

You know what the difference is between us and others? I thought about it.

Some people talk about casualties like a statistic - but I see, and I think you do - little stupid kids that had no idea what they were walking into. This ain't Nazi Germany and this ain't 1944.

Hope this may help a little.

Joe

[Joe for Clark]

43. Dogday -

I posted a reply meant for you to me.

Opps.

You will get the idea, I just suck at typing.

Best to you Dogday,

Joe

[kerrygoddess]

12. Hayden is a life long anti-war activist

He gets it, its a shame you don't.

[Joe for Clark]

19. Do you??

Joe

[MH1]

13. Colorado River - do you mean the Grand Canyon thing?

I guess you didn't know that he misheard the question because of the combination of wind and bad hearing he brought back with him from Vietnam.

[Joe for Clark]

20. He Misheard?? Is that right -

Do you know how dumb that really sounds??

To me, Kerry will always be that 26 year old kid on Cavet, so brave.

He is a good man, or was.

But we have to win, we have to have someone that can win.

Its like that.

I do not mean any disrespect to you,

Joe

[Laurab]

15. They will die because of GW* and his neocon pals

NOT because of Kerry. I also believe Kerry probably won, but it will never be proven as long as there is unverifiable voting.

He is still a brave man, speaking out about things that few others will speak out about. He is also a very intelligent man, and a leader. He may or may not be the answer - I've yet to see anyone else who has a better chance of winning at THIS point, although it's possible someone could come out of the blue like Bill Clinton did, which would be fine with me, too.

All I really want to see is an intelligent, capable LEADER in there, with integrity and a desire to get our country out of the mess it's in. Kerry would be fine by me.

To say that it is because of him that more kids will die is untrue and unfair. Please place that blame where it belongs - squarely on the shoulders of GWB, his administration, and his followers.

[Joe for Clark]

16. I am sorry to give false im[pressions -

I have no bad feelings for JFK - I really do not.

Just that he is no fighter.

4,000 will die - it is just math - I am good at math - cause, largely, of my parents GI bill - you know??

4 X 365 X 4

It is a very, very sick math.


It is not Kerry's fault for losing - IT IS HIS FAULT for not winning.


WE better not make that mistake - NOT NOW.


Best to you,

Joe

[Laurab]

17. I'm aware of the math, thanks

my nephew is in Iraq. He's got about 7 or 8 months to go. He's just a kid who wanted a better life. He knows we have no business there, and told me everyone in the military that he knew was praying Kerry won the last election.

However, I still disagree. It is not Kerry's fault for not winning. If it was a fair election (which I doubt), it was the voters. Myself, I think it was Diebold, so I don't think he lost, but if you prefer to think he really did lose, then look to the voters, who voted for the sociopath who's in office.

And either way, Kerry is still NOT responsible for the destruction this administration has caused, and continues to cause.

[Joe for Clark]

18. He didn't win - and he folded without a fight, that was my problem.

I have been to a few basic grad classes, maybe you have too.

I looked in those eyes, 19 year old eyes - and they were JUST KIDS.

SO I think we better fight for those little kids.

You know, my father, mother - they were officers in the good war (like there is a good war) and my brothers fought in Viet Nam - and I am cold about the things. Cause I lived with it all my life.

Man, there is NO good war - they are all the same.

And those kids, they are all just kids - our kids.

SO, I have a bias, I guess.

Kerry is not responsible for the deaths, it is true - but he knows death - why didn't he fight??

WHY??

God damn it - why?? We knew right from wrong. Kids were going to die because of the judgements made and a lot did.

No more Kerry. We need someone that can win.

Joe

[ProSense]

32. He didn't win - and he folded without a fight? This makes no sense. n/t

[MH1]

33. "Folded without a fight"? - please read this:

http://www.dailykos.com/comments/2006/4/23/115230/700/26#c26

Observations from someone who was there. The person who wrote that comment is a long-time poster at dailykos and quite credible.

[Joe for Clark]

37. I kind of like Kerry - but he did fold.

That is why B*sh is president, right?

At least Gore forced it to the supreme court before he conceded, Kerry conceded the next morning.

That is what I mean.

Gore did win - and Kerry probably did win too.

But we may never know now - those issues needed to forced at the time.

Well, Gore did. I think very highly of him for trying.

Joe

[sandnsea]

21. Well let's be sure and tell him to shut up

The only person who has called for a date certain for withdrawal. The only person who had a plan to being withdrawing troops in 2005. The person who laid out a plan to bring home 20,000 troops last Christmas, and the rest this year; well before Murtha, Edwards or Feingold.

Yeah, let's tell that guy to shut up.

[Joe for Clark]

22. What date is that - by who ??

DO you understand the problem?? - What if you are a leftover. Political problems cause a withdrawl, but not for you. Or half of the guys you are with - do you GET IT?

Murtha had a reasonable premise - shit, he knows the deal.

Kerry was a JG - and thats it.

There was a day those people jacked a mortar on the bed of a Toyota - couldn't hit shit, and the kids knew it. Not anymore - they seem to be able to aim the damn thing now.

I think we need to listen to those guys from Viet Nam, if only because the guys we need to hear from are gone, from Guadanal Canal or Europe. The best guys.

That is where we are though.

Those kids are leftovers at this point. You don't think they know that??

Joe

[sandnsea]

24. That made, literally, no sense

I have no idea what you just said.

[Joe for Clark]

27. What don't you understand exactly?.

I think it is very clear.

Joe

[sandnsea]

28. None of it

I'm sorry, I really am. I read it several times, I've got absolutely no idea what you were trying to say.

[Joe for Clark]

30. I will try, you PM me if this doesn't come out.

A leftover - that is someone that knows there gone. Say there are 130,000 kids left in Iraq , and 65,000 are coming home for political reasons (to win some election this November, say)- if you get left there - you are a leftover.

There is great danger here - those protests (indigenous) in front of the gates over there, they are getting intense - you will know it, as a soldier. There is a point where they will not be manageable.

If the US does start withdrawing troops, how would you like to be "left behind" - does that make sense??

If it does not you PM me.

Joe

[sandnsea]

31. That's why sector by sector is better

I wasn't sure what your complaint was, considering both Kerry and Murtha have a withdrawal plan. And that Kerry has laid out plans to end this war since 2003.

There isn't anything significantly different between Kerry and Murtha and a drawdown. Kerry called for a specific sector by sectory turnover. As Iraq's took real control of each section, and our troops actually left, the rest of the country would see that and it would diffuse the anti-American anger. There wouldn't be any leftovers in that scenario. With a more rapid withdrawal, with troops moving to Kuwait and then out, there would be enough of a force in the region to move back in if violence increased. The only reason I ever supported Kerry's plan over Murtha's is because I trust Kerry to actually bring the vast majority of the troops all the way home and not just redeploy in the region which wouldn't resolve any of the anti-American problems. Then the last of the troops really would be in danger.

[SupplyConcerns]

23. What's so bad about recruiters on campus?

The more people who volunteer for the army, the less likely a draft is. Also, poor people have to put up with military recruiters approaching them at all of their hangouts, so what's wrong with recruiters at a more affluent locale? It's not likely that many college students will sign up anyway. I just don't see how the issue is related to ending the war.

[Joe for Clark]

25. A lot.

This is not 1942.

[SupplyConcerns]

26. More details, please

Of course it's a problem to have recruiters in the sense that it reflects that our military-industrial complex has grown out of control, but on a more practical level, how is it worse to have them than to not have them? And what does kicking them out have to do with ending the war? How would we kick them out after the court (the Supreme Court, I believe) ruled it constitutional?

[Joe for Clark]

29. They are salesmen - really good at it.

We know our teenagers - the recruiters will have a field day with them.

That is the problem.

It has nothing to do with the war - it has do with this generations ability to smell bullshit.

Joe

[sendero]

34. Stupid me..

... for 30 seconds I actually thought you posted something that was NOT a Kerry puff piece.

[ProSense]

35. You choose to admit to your own stupidity. While you're

stalking Kerry threads, take a little time out to comment here:


http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=1027566&mesg_id=1027566


http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=1027537&mesg_id=1027537


http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=1025206&mesg_id=1025206


http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=1024655&mesg_id=1024655

[blm]

36. Yeah - Tom Hayden is known for his puff pieces on war.

What does he know? What does Gary Hart know? They're big phonies, too.

[bigtree]

38. kick for Kerry

:kick:

[Joe for Clark]

42. Oh, for God's sake -

Why??

I don't have a problem with Kerry - I have a problem that he lost - I have a problem he conceded the next day- DON'T YOU!

This isn't Kerry's fight, it is OUR fight.

His kids are going to go to great schools, OUR kids are going to die, you know.

He can go screw himself - we have to live on and do the right thing for OUR kids.

I'll tell you one thing for sure - Gore didn't give up like that. I want Gore. At least he fights it out.

Best to you guy,

Joe

[bigtree]

45. best to me?

why do you torture yourself?

WE (voters) chose Kerry to represent us and he fought hard, and may do so again.

Bush didn't need Kerry's concession to ascend to office, so I don't get the stuff about giving up. Where is the fight for votes in your estimation? Ohio. Kerry did all he could, legislatively and otherwise, to see the votes counted there. I posted some of his efforts here. The recorded tally just wasn't close enough to generate a lasting buzz that would allow him to stand there and maintain a challenge. They still haven't sorted it all out there because of the republican state administration's obstinance. I'm satisfied he did all he could. He managed a record turnout of Democratic votes. Unfortunately, the other side had a good turnout also. Messed up, and history.

so, best to you also, Joe.

[Joe for Clark]

46. I respect the fact good people can diagree about some things

but agree on principle in the whole.
We do. And I like to hear other opinions, anyway.
And I do mean best to you.

Joe

[ProSense]

44. Two deadlines and an Exit!

http://www.johnkerry.com/action/deadline/?sc=e.20060418