OMFG, "Christians" re-invent yoga to suit their beliefs.

[quiet.american]

The sheer arrogant ignorance of this makes my blood boil. Instead of taking the opportunity to learn about another culture and the similarities between two religions -- Hinduism and Christianity -- this woman decides yoga is only palatable if it is molded into into her own "Christian" image. :grr:

Yoga With A Christian Bent
Exercise Enthusiasts Reinvent the Practice to Suit Their Belief

The poses may be the same as in the Hindu version of yoga, but the philosophy associated with the practice has been reinvented by those of a different faith....

Her class, "Outstretched in Faith," is a switch from traditional yoga, which has its roots in the Hindu religion and predates Christianity.

The original goal of Yoga was to develop self-awareness and help individuals find divinity within themselves.

But those Hindu ideals offend some Christians. Bordenkircher said that as a devout Methodist, when she first tried yoga she loved the exercise but not the Hindu-based chanting.

"It made me feel uncomfortable. It made me feel as if those were elements that I certainly did not want to participate in," Bordenkircher said.

[VOX]

1. As Gandhi said, "I like your Christ, but I do not like your Christians..."

"...They are so unlike your Christ." :)

[quiet.american]

5. Ah -- that is one of my favorite Gandhi quotes. n/t

[flvegan]

9. Bingo. Right there. That's it, that's all.

Nothing more to say.

[flamingyouth]

2. How silly.

There are all kinds of yoga classes out there that don't include chanting at all. Instead of forcing her *own* religious beliefs on others, why not try a yoga class at a gym? :eyes:

[quiet.american]

12. Right -- and why not learn about something different than oneself, too?

And she's got a class full of those like herself -- there they are dutifully practicing and enjoying the wonderful benefits of Hatha Yoga, but spitting on the thousands of years of tradition that is providing them with their healthful practice.

[flamingyouth]

16. Because LEARNING BAD

LALALALALAICANTHEARYOU when you're trying to open my mind to something new and wonderful.

I really feel sorry for people like this. Yoga has been an amazing gift in my life. I don't need to be a devout Hindu to appreciate its amazing tradition and beauty.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

3. Chanting?

I've read books on yoga and even tried some stretches from time to time, but I didn't know that Kirtan (chanting) was an integral part of the practice.

[flamingyouth]

7. It can be, but it's not like it's mandatory.

I'm an Episcopalian who has no problem praciticing yoga or chanting (of course, I'm not this person either).

I wonder how she'd like it if I walked into her church and said, "You know, this place looks a little sparse. You could really use a statue of the Buddha in here."

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

19. Thanks for the information

Wonder if she'd like us to come lead the Dances of Universal Peace, which honor all spiritual traditions? We do it at Unity Churches on a regular basis. And I think the old UMC needs to learn to do Kirtan and Zkr (chanting practice of Muslims), don't you?

[flamingyouth]

21. I'm sure she wouldn't.

But I would love to. :hi:

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

33. Come by anytime

http://www.ozarkdancecircle.us

We do Christian dances as well. :)

[flamingyouth]

37. That looks really wonderful

:hi:

[Zenlitened]

4. Developing self-awareness offends some christians?

Really?

:rofl:

[quiet.american]

13. Good point, lol. n/t

[IndyOp]

6. Give Me That Ol' Time Religion. Give Me That Ol' Time Religion.

Give Me That Ol' Time Religion.
It's good enough for me.

It was good enough for Brahma
It was good enough for Brahma
It was good enough for Brahma
It's good enough for me.

Give Me That Ol' Time Religion.
Give Me That Ol' Time Religion.
Give Me That Ol' Time Religion.
It's good enough for me.

It was good enough for Vishnu
It was good enough for Vishnu
It was good enough for Vishnu
It's good enough for me.

[quiet.american]

14. :) n/t

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

26. Jai Shiva!

If it was good enough for Shiva
Om nava Shivia
If it was good enough for Kali
Om Krim! Shri Ma
If it was good enough for Krishna
Gopala Gopala
Then it's good enough for me!

(Ever seen the tee shirt with Stonehenge on it with Give Me That Old Time Religion at the bottom? Your post reminded me of it)

[IndyOp]

36. No I haven't seen the Stonehenge shirt, I was inspired by the

dismissive comment that Hinduism predates Christianity -- which leads me to ask, since Christianity predates Islam, doesn't that make Islam superior?

:shrug:

:hi:

[Odin2005]

51. Hinduism in the strict sense is actually younger than Christianity.

The polytheism of the steppe peoples who invaded India 3,500 years ago is not the same religion as modern Hinduism, which is pantheist and was basically derived from Buddhist, Greek, and Middle-Eastern influences that took the old gods and turned them into differnet forms of a single god.

[quiet.american]

52. Uh... granted I'm not a theology scholar, but this is not strictly correct

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

55. Lets see....

is the little toe on the right foot superior to the little toe on the left foot?

Is the fish in the water thirsty?

Does it really matter how you get there as long as you get there?

:)

[petronius]

56. I thought that comment was meant to be dismissive of her, not Hinduism

I thought it was an "upstart Christian can't respect her elders" kind of snipe...

[LittleClarkie]

80. All the variations you could ever want

http://www.whitetreeaz.com/vintage/realotr.htm

[patdem]

8. Fine, may the law of unintended consequences follow her to the grave

I have always said, if I envey a person his auto, I must also envy his pains and sorrows...I chose not to live in the world of 'unintended consequences' myself!

[CelticWinter]

10. Once again they fear

what they do not understand or they dont want to understand......they are living proof that the Creator can take a joke.

[quiet.american]

18. That's a nice way to look at it.

As a yoga-practicing Christian myself, I'm trying to see the humor in this. This just strikes me as so disrepectful of another religion.... I can even see that, yes, perhaps she would be uncomfortable with practicing certain aspects of another religion without understanding what it meant, but then... "with all thy getting, get understanding"! (And please excuse my "French" in the title of my post, but God help me, this is unbelievable!).

[Horse with no Name]

108. Well to find the humor you have to realize two things

1. They aren't Christian.
2. They aren't respectful of anything except their own needs.

Therein lies the problem.

[C_U_L8R]

11. Fooling Fundies for Fun & Profit

they are just soooooo gullible... who can't resist.

[gollygee]

15. My sister was taking yoga classes and quit

because someone at her church found out and it created a brouhaha.

She doesn't go to that church anymore.

Of course she doesn't do yoga anymore either. . .

[quiet.american]

22. Amazing. What business of it was theirs what she did? n/t

[gollygee]

28. I don't know, saving her from herself or something

peer pressure I guess.

[enid602]

17. yoga

They're doing so much to facilitate the 'end times;' makes sense that they would want to get into something that helps them with stress.

[Kerrytravelers]

20. I have been doing yoga for YEARS at the gym and at home.I've never chanted

Here is an emoticon representation of how pissed off I get when I see shit like this:


:eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes:



:eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes:

[quiet.american]

24. Your emoticons speak for me, too. Aaarrrghhh! n/t

[Blue_Tires]

23. cheap.....n/t

[jrw14125]

25. SO... basically they're now just STRETCHING.

[quiet.american]

27. That puts it in perspective! n/t

[Kerrytravelers]

30. I hope she charges these idiots up the ass for just stretching.

If anyone is stupid enough to join her class, they deserve to be ripped off--- just for being stupid.

[Kerrytravelers]

29. And this quote, at the end, just beats all I've ever seen.

"If you take a tree and chop off it's roots, then you don't have a tree, do you?" said Subhas Tiwaris, a professor of yoga philosophy.

"Yoga is mind, body, spirit. You want to make those separations," he said.


But Bordenkircher bristles at this charge and defends her practice.

"There is no way that you can take a posture that is from a body that God created and say this can only be used for the Hindu faith," Bordenkircher said.




AAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! That is NOT what the professor was saying. Good God, woman, did your Lord and Creator really make you THAT stupid?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!




Ok. I feel better now.

[burythehatchet]

31. Yoga was developed as a method of

unfifying body and mind - Yoga means to yoke together - so that one could be prepared to meditate. The practice has been adopted to varying degress of adherence to the original practice. The most pathetic thing that I've seen is what a company in California has done. These ladies have made a yoga exercise video and they have named it...Yoga Booty Ballet. I found this so offensive that it made me consider doing something about it. Especially because they used the most sacred Hindu symbol, the Aum, as their frigging logo.

[Kerrytravelers]

35. AAAAA *breathe* RRRRRRRRRR *breathe* GGGGGGGGGGG!!!!!!!!!!

This is me:

[quiet.american]

43. Hello!.... inhale.... exhale.... inhale.... exhale.... :) n/t

[anarch]

64. "Jesus said: Come to me, for my yoke is easy...

and my lordship is gentle, and you will find rest for yourselves." - Gospel of Thomas, Saying 90

[Triana]

120. Yoga means Unity....

...yep. I've been doing it for a few years. I do it at home and never 'chant'. When they chant in class it doesn't bother me and I hardly find it offensive. I DO find these "Holy Rollers" offensive though...but then I'm not one of them. And they are NOT Christians. Or maybe they are. Christianity is nothing but a bastardization of other religions anyway - paganism, Hinduism, whatever. They're too pointy-headed and narrow-minded to come up with an acceptable spirituality of their own. And they STILL haven't because they haven't a CLUE what spirituality IS. It has NOTHING to do with religion and that's why I DON'T DO RELIGION. Religious dogma is a disease. Even the Buddha taught against it.

[LittleClarkie]

32. How could awareness and mindfulness be a bad thing

I've got a book on meditating that includes several religions, Christianity one of them. But I never thought of yoga as anything else but a discipline that helps one focus their mind, useful for people of any persuasion I should think.

Seems rather ignorant.

[burythehatchet]

38. It's very reflective of the Hindu faith

It matters little what path one takes because all paths reach the same reality. (Assuming, of course, one is actually on a path as opposed to being on a bus driven by a televangelist)

[LittleClarkie]

41. Televangelists make my teeth itch

And I consider myself a Christian.



These people have their own network. It's like Jim and Tammy on steroids.

Meanwhile, back at the ranch, I don't practice mindfulness and relaxation or yoga techniques because I seek enlightenment. I use them sometimes because I get anxiety attacks sometimes.

[burythehatchet]

44. As Krishna said to Arjuna on the battlefield

It does not matter how you do it or why, as long as you do it. You may enjoy reading the Bhagavad Gita.

[Ilsa]

73. Oh my God! What is attacking that woman's head and why didn't

that plastic-haired weenie next to her do something to stop it?

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

34. Ehhhh, To Each Their Own.

It is a tad silly in premise, but I really don't see any harm in it really. :shrug:

[burythehatchet]

39. No,no harm whatsoever

it is merely indicative of the intolerance and bigotry of individuals to whom there is only one religion and the rest of us are going to hell.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

122. Intolerance? Bigotry?

Adopting a set of physical exercises from another religion without conceding validity to that religion could hardly be called intolerant or bigotted, I think.

Arguing that people should be forbidden from performing Yoga except in a Christian context would be intolerant and bigotted, but this is neither - they're not imposing in any way on anyone except themselves, so what they're doing is fine.

If I, an atheist, wanted to take up yoga as a physical exercise, I wouldn't bother with the spiritual elements; I'd substitute my own implicity secular interpretation - that it is a set of physical and mental exercises with no supernatural or quasi-supernatural elements. I see nothing wrong with a Christian doing the same thing mutatis mutandis.

[burythehatchet]

132. Yes, of course

How could I have ever reached the conclusion that fundamentalist religious zealots are an intolerant bunch.

You state "Arguing that people should be forbidden from performing Yoga except in a Christian context would be intolerant and bigotted". I would love to see evidence where I said anything resembling this. Even the most warped interpretation of what I wrote couldn't resemble that statement.

My point is these bigots who adopt the practice of yoga are the same people who tell me I'm going to hell. As I said there is no harm in what they are doing, it simply shows their bigotry and intolerance.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

133. I'm sorry, I think you've gotten the wrong end of the stick.

I'm not saying that because *you* *are* arguing that "people should be forbidden from performing Yoga except in a Christian context" *you* *are* intolerant and bigotted.

I'm saying that because *she* is *not* arguing that, *she* is *not* being intolerant or bigotted.

I'm not sure where the idea that I'm saying that you're arguing that came from - possibly I didn't make myself clear enough.

[quiet.american]

42. Here's what gets my goat.

It smacks of intolerance.

[Left Is Write]

66. I think it's only intolerant...

if they think others should stop practicing traditional yoga.

[quiet.american]

68. I would be interested to know....

... what class members would think if someone defected from their "Christian yoga" class and decided to take up traditional yoga across the hall, chants and all. I wonder. :)

[Left Is Write]

72. They'd probably just shake their heads and go back to what

they were doing, and write off that person as not a "real" Christian.

I get written off all the time by fundies because I'm not a Bible literalist.

[quiet.american]

76. Then, that's what I refer to as intolerance.

I wonder how many of them have ever even take a traditional hatha yoga class to see what it's all about? Or what percentage of this class perhaps alternates taking the Christian-ized yoga class, and taking the traditional yoga class? It's hard for tolerance to exist inside narrow-mindedness. And as I've stated in another reply, I actually don't think adapting the universal science of yoga to one's spiritual path is a bad idea, but not when the motivation is that it's great except it's not Christian.

[Left Is Write]

79. I wouldn't consider that intolerance.

Intolerance is more than just disagreeing with someone else's belief.

If a person joined and then subsequently dropped her class, and the rest of them followed her and harrassed her, that might cross over into intolerance.

Simply creating a "Christian" yoga class for like-minded folks isn't really an example of intolerance. They don't want to wipe out all other practices of yoga, do they?

What about secular practitioners of yoga, who use it strictly for physical exercise and nothing spiritual at all? Are they intolerant too?

[quiet.american]

82. One can be intolerant and never overtly show it or harrass someone.

There's nothing wrong with adapting a spiritual science in order to more deeply experience one's own faith. However, this is clearly not that. This is enjoying the benefits of yoga, while feeling the need to re-invent it because a misconception of Hinduism prevents one from discovering that the chants one is uncomfortable with are in truth very similar to Christian hymns.

If this young lady had come from a point of view of respect for the origin of yoga, and had wanted to share the benefits she received from it with the idea of adapting it to her faith, this would actually be a terrific idea. But truly, by her own words, that is not what this is.

[rinsd]

114. Response.....

"If this young lady had come from a point of view of respect for the origin of yoga, and had wanted to share the benefits she received from it with the idea of adapting it to her faith, this would actually be a terrific idea. But truly, by her own words, that is not what this is."

You have a couple of quick blurbs in a short article. Maybe she did exactly as above. She stated that she was uncomfortable with the chants and seems to be devout in her own religion. She didn't insult Hinduism. If you were a devout Hindu, I would imagine singing hymns would make you uncomfortable.

"a misconception of Hinduism prevents one from discovering that the chants one is uncomfortable with are in truth very similar to Christian hymns."

But they are not the same. Otherwise what would be the issue?

[Lorax]

40. Not surprised

I am a full-time student (and soon to be special ed teacher) but I used to be a massage therapist. I can tell you that yoga and massage therapy changed my life in ways that years of doctors and chiropractors never could.

Anyway, one time my then 12 year old daughter had a bunch of girlfriends over. While we sat around the dinner table eating tacos and laughing, the girls started talking about drugs, people they know who do drugs, etc. So I engaged them in conversation about why people do drugs and then we talked about some of the things a person could do instead of doing drugs. I asked them if they wanted me to teach them meditation. After the gigles and whispers subsided, we did some deep breathing and focused thought.

I got several angry calls from parents the next day. The general theme is that they didn't want me teaching my crazy meditation hippie crap to their kids because, "we don't believe in that. We are Christians!" I won't even bother to describe the response I got when I tried to explain that prayer is a type of meditation. Damned fundies.

[quiet.american]

50. What can I say? Oy. n/t

[fujiyama]

93. LOL

We don't believe in deep breathing or focused thought!

We believe only in blind dogma and whatever Pat Robertsan (or fill in the name of the crackpot televangelist they're listening to) says!

[LostinVA]

45. Christians' War on YOga

[quiet.american]

46. Ohhhh, you're good. :) n/t

[LostinVA]

49. giggle

[Odin2005]

47. What a close-minded bitch.

[SalmonChantedEvening]

48. Ask the Pagans

They've had their summer and winter solstice celebrations stolen from them in the name of rabbits and reindeer.

Happy Holidays Mr. O'Loofah!!!

[The Straight Story]

53. I am a christian, and I won't even yogurt cause it sound like yoga

:rofl:

But seriously though, I don't see a problem people adapting things to suit their own needs. I used to meditate a lot back when I was studying tibbetan buddhism but found some of the ways of things were just not to my liking and modified as needed. The overall things stayed the same though.

[quiet.american]

54. Nothing wrong with interpretation.

(Okay, the yogurt line was humorous). :)

No, there's nothing wrong with interpretation. (And the key word with what you were doing is "studying.") But did you then start a class purporting to make Tibetan Buddhism more palatable to Christians because you were uncomfortable with it as a religion? Or did you privately make your changes while still respecting Tibetan Buddhism as a religion? :)

[The Straight Story]

58. If I had like minded individuals and I were not so lazy

I might have started my own sect :)

I found combining buddhism, native american faiths, and christianity that I got a better understanding of things.

[quiet.american]

61. It seems the difference here is that you're open-minded.

This young lady did not strike me as being the same. Granted, yoga is a universal practice, and she and her class will highly benefit no matter by what name she calls God. However, my problem is with the motivation for this -- I watched the interview and this young lady came across as being of the mind, "yoga is so cool if only it weren't for the Hindu religion -- I know, I'll Christian-ize it!"

Her motivating attitude struck me as just so arrogant.

[The Straight Story]

69. Yeah, I understand that all too well

Meditation is seen by some as a gateway to let demons in, etc and so on.

My sister runs in this vain of things (or is it vein...vein I think). She won't celebrate halloween, her kids aren't allowed to dress up for it, etc (and she homeschools, which I am doing as well. But I will say her kids are superb and highly intelligent - she is in for a rude awakening soon though I think).

To me it is all about the E. Enlightenment. As a christian I found my faith strengthened a hundred fold by seeing things outside of the faith and how it all relates.

[quiet.american]

71. Ah, if only there were more in every faith like you! :) n/t

[The Straight Story]

81. You know the really funny thing about it all?

Jesus and the OT prophets were the biggest critics of people of their own faith. They embraced the faith of course, but called out people on it all the time. Heck, old Paul in the NT is none too kind to some churches, neither was John/Jesus in revelation (see the 7 churches).

My goal is to hear such criticism and apply it to myself to better develop a relationship with god - not go blaming others for things. Of course all that falls within the sphere of the faith and how fellow believers debate things.

[quiet.american]

83. :) n/t

[Solly Mack]

57. Positions: The Back-slider,the foot-washer,the genuflect,the once

saved-always saved, the crucifix, the washed in the blood, the nun, the missionary (DUH!),the amen pew,the choir chain,, the baptism,the christening, the backward facing missionary

couldn't resist

well, could actually - but wasn't about to

[stepnw1f]

59. I Hope They Do It Publicly

so we can all see who they are.... and then make an effort to stay the fuck away from them.

[SPKrazy]

60. Sounds Like She Found A Way To Make Money Is All

Selling it to the fundies so that they can feel "okay" about participating in "Yoga" without the Hindu chants.

I agree with the OP, but I think the person who did this is thinking about $$$$$$$, not religion

[anarch]

62. just to be totally fair, Paramahansa Yogananda also "Christianized" yoga

to some extent. I'm not going to read that whole article, though. It's just something that always sort of bugged me. God is god is God, as far as I'm concerned, so whatever works.

[quiet.american]

65. Er... I understand what you're saying, but... no.

(First, I agree with you, God is God).

However, Paramahansa Yogananda's specific mission, according to his seminal work Autobiography of a Yogi, and according to one of the Aims and Ideals of Self-Realization Fellowship, the organization he founded in 1920, was to "advocate cultural and spiritual understanding between East and West, and the exchange of their finest distinctive features."

To make an analogy to this case, he did not "Hindu-ize" Christianity because he was uncomfortable with the hymns of Christianity (the opposite, he was a great follower and lover of the teachings of Christ), rather he came to the States specifically to educate and emphasize to Westerners the similarities between Hinduism and Christianity. He did not decide to create his own version of Christian practices because as a Hindu he was uncomfortable with it, rather he energetically embraced and studied the teachings of Jesus because as you say, God is God.

I actually think adapting hatha yoga to Christian themes or Islamic themes, or Judaic themes is not a bad idea. But not when the motivation behind it is that yoga would be perfect if it wasn't for all the Hinduism.

[anarch]

74. right...that's what I said

well, not exactly, but hey, if somehow maybe more people can be enticed to realize the true Self by whatever means necessary, then it's ok by me.

But then again I was raised Unitarian, through which I was introduced to Buddhism, by means of which thanks to my former-hippie-and-yogi good friend and primary meditation teacher I got into yoga, and went on from there to my current One True Religion (Hail Eris!), so whatever.


edited to add: I also didn't actually read the article in the original post, so I'm pretty much talking out my ass.

[quiet.american]

77. :) Okay, your "on edit" made me laugh. :)

:hi:

[GOPNotForMe]

63. These fundies are turning me off to religion even more than usual.

I have no room in my brain for their small-minded mythology.

[RagAss]

67. offend some Christians???

more like offend some assholes.....

even atheists like me know that Jesus spoke frequently of the "kingdom of heaven alive in you"....sounds to me like finding divinity within oneself ....I hope they pull their muscles doing their Fundy Yoga....I'm getting real tired of these asshats...

[me b zola]

88. "kingdom of heaven alive in you".

I have always believed that is the message that Jesus taught to his disciples and that many of his parables were instructions on meditating to acheive God consciencness. At any rate, I agree with you that his message was to transform yourself.

I never could understand fundies and how their faith depends upon forcing some dogma upon others or devaluing the beliefs of others.

[Roland99]

70. What a STUPID. IGNORANT. @#$%@#^!!!!

[JanMichael]

75. Same a Christian Karate freaks.

They figure that they need to instill their beliefs on really really old practices.

Hell my instructor told us of how a long time student quite recently because his new found religion thought that Karate was satanic.

Fuckin' nut cases one and all.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

87. I made a post below on Christian Karate.

I actually once had a guy drop off my competition kata team because we were going to do it at an AAU tournament. He had to boycott the AAU because they hold their nationals at *gasp* Disney and Disney *gasp* has Gay Day. Stupid though didn't realize that his team leader (me) was *gasp* a GAY! Even the conservatives in my dojo were joking around about buying his daughter a shitload of Disney stuff.

[kevinbgoode]

78. It's just a wingnut gimmick. . .

they are desperately trying to redefine themselves as a persecuted minority. Problem is, their own whining about gays wanting special rights could come back to bite them in the ass. After all, religious beliefs are CHOSEN, along with the lifestyle. It will get to the point where the rest of us will say "You know what? You MADE that lifestyle choice, so live with the consequences. No special rights for your lifestyle choice."

Then, of course, they'll explode in their typically faux-christian rage.

[hedgehog]

84. What would she have to do to make you happy?

She's using the breathing exercises and postures but has changes the chant and visualizations to match her value system while still acknowledging the source that she has adapted. She is perfectly honest about what she has done and why she has done it. If she didn't call it yoga, you'd be accusing her of theft or plagiarism. Are you saying that no one is allowed to learn from other cultures and adapt them to their own? Or are you saying that the yoga is ineffective unless one uses the Hindu chants?

[WhereIsMyFreedom]

92. There is an amazing amount of intolerance here

of her adapting yoga to match her spirituality. This while exclaiming that she is being intolerant of Hinduism. Pot, meet kettle. While she may be intolerant, I agree that there isn't anything wrong with her adapting yoga to work for her and I don't see this as evidence of her intolerance.

All of the yoga I've done and the class I took did not involve any chanting. Apparently I was just wasting my time, according to the yoga purists here...or perhaps I should start calling them yoga snobs.

[quiet.american]

100. She is not "adapting" but "re-inventing."

She is not embracing yoga and it's Hindu origins, but re-molding it to suit her comfort zone, without bothering to find out more about the religion from which yoga emerged because of her own pre-conceptions about yoga.

Japa Yog (chanting) certainly is not required to practice Hatha Yog (physical postures). What I object to is the attitude that yoga would be cool if it weren't for all the Hindu-ism.

[hughee99]

85. I'm a little surprised by some of the outrage here...

It sounds like this lady, however misguided some may think she is, did yoga for exercise, not for the spiritual enlightenment part. She wants to exercise and not have to listen to someone else's religion. If she were an atheist and wanted to change the chanting to something secular, I doubt that nearly as many people would have an issue with this, except maybe for the yoga "purists". She's not outside protesting at yoga classes for their blasphemy or anything. She's not trying to stop anyone from enjoying the traditional yoga. It doesn't sound like she's hurting anyone. What ever happened to live and let live?

[quiet.american]

98. Whatever happened to open-mindedness?

As I said in many other replies, adapting the universal science of yoga to one's religion is not new or wrong. However, stripping yoga of its references to it's origins because it doesn't jive with your own personal beliefs is really disrespectful of the religion which gave birth to it.

[hughee99]

102. Like when people who aren't christian or jewish

put up decorations in their house maybe even put up a christmas tree and give gifts, despite the fact that they don't go to church or pray to god?

[quiet.american]

103. I have a Jewish brother-in-law that puts up a Christmas tree every year

Every year he decorates it, has fun and makes Christmastime a wonderful event for my sister and their kids. He participates in the tradition yet doesn't try to re-invent it. Come Yom Kippur, (hope I spelled that right) my sister does her part and celebrates it according to the traditions of his religion without re-inventing its rituals to fit into her beliefs.

[Shakespeare]

104. Hmmm. You maybe shouldn't have used a Christmas tree as your example.

Because that one certainly doesn't belong to the Christians.

The asanas, mantras and pranayama (breathing) are all an integral part of yoga. If you strip it down to just the physical exercises, you're not doing yoga. You're doing stretches. Also, many of the mantras are in no way out of step with the idea of a Christian god. What she has shown is incredible ignorance, and I think that is what bothers so many people here.

[hughee99]

106. Hmmm. Maybe you missed my point...

It wasn't the christmas tree that was may point, it was the celebration of the holidays characterized by decorating the house and giving gifts. The tree itself is incidental. Those who adhere to those religions would say that the spiritual aspect of those holidays is integral to celebrating the holidays. Others say you can enjoy and get something out of the holiday with out incorporating the spiritual aspect. It may not be the "full effect" but it's a tradeoff that they can accept.

[Shakespeare]

107. No, I didn't miss the point.

The Christmas tree is an invalid comparison. It's an ornament (literally) that was tacked onto an invented Christian holiday to make it more palatable to pagans. It has never had any significant meaning to Christianity. The mantras and pranayama, on the other hand, have always been an integral part of yoga; it's not just the asanas (poses).

You made my point for me, anyway: "It may not be the "full effect" but it's a tradeoff that they can accept." Exactly. It ain't yoga; it's stretching. If they like it, yay for them, but yeah, I can roll my eyes and point out that they're not really practicing yoga.** Because they aren't.

**Yoga-practicing Christian (because I don't find the Hindu mantras incompatible at ALL with my Christian beliefs).

[hughee99]

113. Yes, you did then

The christmas tree was an EXAMPLE, lets say they decorated their house without a christmas tree, my argument is the same (which is also why I referred to Judaism which is not known for their trees). Should those people be called ignorant, closed-minded or any of the other name I have seen here?

I wouldn't argue that they're not practicing yoga, so if that's all you were arguing, then I agree, but I also don't see any need to malign them for what they're doing as some on the thread have done (which was all I was trying to say).

[Shakespeare]

117. No. I did. Not. Miss. The point.

You just reiterate what I said; the Christmas tree is a symbol external to Christianity itself. It's associated with it, but it's not integral to any part of the practice of Christianity. The mantras, on the other hand, ARE integral to practicing yoga.

What I malign them for is ignorance of what the mantras mean in translation, and the arrogance of thinking they can take a quasi-religious practice of another faith and subsume it into their own. It's totally artificial.

[hughee99]

118. Religious people would argue that

the spiritual part of the Christmas/Holiday experience is integral to the celebration of the holiday, while the decorations, be it a a tree or ANY other decorations are much less important. To them, for someone who appears to be celebrating the holiday (perhaps by the way they decorate), but is neglecting the spiritual part is doing something totally artificial, they are not celebrating Christmas. Some christians find this offensive that someone is picking and choosing the aspects of their holiday they like, while not respecting all the traditions.

Personally, I don't have any problem with someone enjoying the holiday season, but doing it without the spiritual component, and I think the christians who malign them for it are close minded. I see this situation as basically the same thing. The woman not truly practicing yoga any more than others are celebrating christmas, but as long as they're not pushing their beliefs on anyone, I don't see any reason to call anyone names.

[JVS]

135. Let me see if I can get this straight?

Saint Boniface goes from England to Germany to Christianize them. He notices a local tree that is said to be holy. He chops it down and builds a christian shrine. In return the locals kill him, but over time are converted.

Are you sure that the German custom of cutting down a tree and putting it in the living room was designed to make things more palatable to pagans? It sounds more in line with a rubbing in of who prevailed.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

123. What's wrong with that.

Whether what she's doing technically is or isn't yoga strikes me as a purely semantic point; it's clearly good exercise, and it's not hurting anyone else.

I also don't see what's so ignorant about this - I can quite understand a Christian wanting to use stretches invented by other religions without also practicing elements of those religions.

[JVS]

134. OMG! They're waging a WAR ON YOGA!

I think you've got it right.

[hughee99]

109. I guess we disagree on what open-mindedness is.

It seem like it used to be that when someone did something that they enjoyed and didn't hurt anyone else, open-minded people wouldn't call them names for it.

[LoZoccolo]

110. Yeah, I don't get it either.

Actually I do get it, but it doesn't make any sense, because human nature often does not.

And then people turn around and wonder why we lose people to the GOP.

[QC]

124. A lot of people get off on phony indignation.

Gives them a chance to preen and pose and declare how wonderfully virtuous they are. I sometimes wonder if that is the sole appeal of being a "progressive" for many people.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

86. I'm not surprised...here's some more examples...

There's a lot of Christian martial arts organizations and schools. Many of them state the goal of reclaiming the martial arts for Christ. According to this article, these schools often use cult-like tactics to spread a message of hate and intolerance. Having studying the martial arts, there is definitely a militaristic mindset present within many schools. How far it goes depends on the individual instructor. Within my own dojo it varies, my instructor is militaristic and has a hard-on for Bush. Other instructors, myself included, are pretty laid back in how we teach. It is amazingly easy to create a level of blind devotion within a martial arts school becoming an infallible leader for your students. I think they would be quite successful in convincing students to follow their hatred of non-Christians, gays, etc.

Christian Karate Association
Gospel Martial Arts Union
Mighty Warrior Ministries

Christian Tattoo Association has the goal of "bringing a Christian voice to the tattoo community.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

89. Scary example of Christian Martial Arts...

Taken from here...

"Unfortunately, the martial arts have been incorrectly judged by many in the Christian community as a direct hot line to hell via Zen Buddhism. This is usually brought about by the common belief that the martial arts originated in the Orient, and therefore are rooted in Oriental philosophy and occult practices.

This brings to light such scriptures as Psalm 144:1 where David says "Blessed be the Lord my strength, who teaches my hands to war, and my fingers to fight". This account of King David's own martial arts system shows us that in all reality God's people had the martial arts long before the world polluted them with it's own errant philosophies.

Indeed, we as God's people had them first and it's definitely possible (and probably a very good idea...), to take the martial arts back from the enemy, using them to build character and discipline, bringing glory and honor to the Lord Jesus Christ."

The enemy they're referring to is Buddha, a dangerous character. Some further research onto the style they teach ("Shiho Karano Karate") is that it's some made up "Christian-based" karate. It's all really bizarre. Although on normal martial arts forums/sites, apparently these guys are viewed with the same "freakshow" opinion I have on them.

My dojo has a branch in a Catholic Church, but we have no ties to religion, we just rent their hall a couple times a week. Our students are almost all Catholic or Jewish. We all follow the standard creeds & history in Isshinryu karate, some of which can have some Shinto or Buddhist base. It's not a big deal. The more I research these Christian karate guys, the weirder it gets.

[flamingyouth]

90. Interesting - this just arrived in my inbox from Yoga Journal

http://www.yogajournal.com/views/284_1.cfm?ctsrc=nlv201

An article on yoga and religious beliefs.

[Warren DeMontague]

91. Yep. You're chanting your way into the lake of fire, there, missy.

Better watch out! MUAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAHAHAAAA!

[SoCalDem]

94. She would probably enjoy this exercise regimine

http://www.compfused.com/directlink/477/

[NMMNG]

95. What a narrow minded twit

Typical fundie type approach....take something from another religion and taint it with her own spew.

[FM Arouet666]

96. Another example of christian tolerance?

The original goal of Yoga was to develop self-awareness and help individuals find divinity within themselves.

But those Hindu ideals offend some Christians.

How offensive! Fundamentalists seem to be obsessed with jesus, jesus 24 hours a day, in every aspect of life. They can't take a shit without jesus. Frankly, I am sick of the guy and I am getting tired of reading about christian nonsense every god damned day.
:evilfrown:

[hughee99]

116. It sounds like your not very tolerant of the annoying christians ;)

Frankly, these 24-hour-a-day god fundies do lots to bring criticism to themselves, but I don't see this as one of those things. They're not trying to shut down other classes, they're not protesting the "heathens" outside yoga centers. For once, they're doing their own thing and not trying to push their beliefs on the unwilling. If this was their new way (which it won't be) to do their own thing and leave the rest of us alone, I think we'd all be pretty happy about it.

[fujiyama]

97. This amuses me more than anything else

I don't see anything wrong in her necessarily practing Yogic exercises while adapting it to her specific lifestyle and religion (it's not as if Yoga can or should be restricted to members of only a particular religion), but at the same time, she makes it clear herself that "elements" of the other religion makes her "uncomfortable", as though the chants were unholy or satanic.

This is a problem with many religions - the concept of exclusivity. Rather than acknowledging that the religious chants are about inner peace and harmony, they are feared and shunned (after all it's spoken by some damn pagans). Kinda pathetic actually.

[liontamer]

131. why should she say a chant she doesn't believe?

I think the difference between her and most other people is that she's actually aware enough to think about what she's saying. So many people take the chants and focus on the calm they're supposed to bring and ignore the actual meaning. It sounds like she's gotten a lot from yoga, but knows that praise to Kali, or devotion to Krishna isn't really doing much for her spiritually. So she leaves that stuff out, big deal.

[mondo joe]

99. Everything gets co-opted eventually.

I'm empathetic to the response in the thread.

But just like all the pagan artifacts that are now Christian hallmarks, everything else that catches on will be folded into the big morphing Christian religion.

[leeroysphitz]

101. Why not?

They've been co-opting and assimilating other belief systems from the beginning.

[JVS]

105. Why shouldn't they?

Do people have to take everything from the buffet?

[LoZoccolo]

111. Then we wonder why we lose so many elections.

It's called why do you care about this and why is this in GD?

[Warren DeMontague]

115. Oh, yeah. We're alienating the "values voter".

Haven't heard THAT old saw around here, before.

:eyes:

Actually, the reason we 'lose' elections is because the same shitheads who promote lies about the all-powerful religious right vote (hint: There's not nearly as many of them as they want you to think) are also programming the machines and rigging the widespread vote theft and fraud.

[LoZoccolo]

121. More like the "leave us alone" voter.

People are making a political issue of someone's personal religious practice by putting it on a political message board, which is exactly what the Republicans want. It is part of the strategy they picked in order to win. They themselves actually parade this idea that Christian = Republican around, presumably to get some sort of backlash from us and thus further establish it. You can see that by how they made such a big deal out of the "moral values" segment in the last election, which was 40% in 1996, 35% in 2000, but only 22% in 2004.

http://www.economist.com/printedition/displayStory.cfm?Story_ID=3375543

But despite this, we are slipping with evangelical Christians over time. People think this demographic is statically Republican, but in 1987 it was 34% Republican and 31% Democratic - much more even than now.

http://people-press.org/reports/display.php3?PageID=757

And 21% voted for Kerry (I'm going off of exit polls from the election).

[Warren DeMontague]

136. Mmmmm Hmmm. And if "we" would just stop making fun of fundies

on an internet message board, they'd all come rushing to us-- despite our support of reproductive choice, equal rights for gays, and the separation of church and state...

Or are we supposed to lose those, as well?

Because THOSE are the "moral values" that we're supposedly losing on. (Lost in the shuffle, of course, are bedrock truths like the fact that most Americans are pro-choice)

Sorry. I'm quite familiar with the line that you're peddling, TYVM--- and I aint buyin'.

[LoZoccolo]

137. That doesn't make any sense.

I've demonstrated that a portion of them vote Democratic regardless of that, and that there's been a migration. How do you justify deliberately continuing and/or hastening the migration? How do you justify playing a role in a strategy that the Republicans selected as one that would help them win elections? Do you really want to grow the religious right by two-thirds? You've given no reason for it, just as there's no reason for this entire thread to be on a political message board as per your own assertion that Democrats stand for the separation of church and state. The only one I can think of is that it makes certain people here feel good.

No, this one post won't change everything, but I think it's time that we stopped the parasitic phenomenon of people latching on to the Democratic Party to express anti-religious sentiments because it ultimately threatens to kill the host and allow the Republicans victory according to their plan. If it wasn't their plan to cause a backlash along the fault lines that they've drawn, they wouldn't have emphasized the "moral values" voter despite it being a waning percentage.

[Warren DeMontague]

138. Right. The poor persecuted religious folks

and the mean, ol' abusive anti-religious atheists, who are also, apparently, parasitic.

Or is your preferred metaphor that we're some kind of cancer?

Hmmm. Maybe you missed the RAW STORY editorial that suggested "purging" us, but it sounds eerily in line with your sentiments expressed here.

I guess that's okay, though-- but making light fun of a woman who feels the need to alter the basic tenets of YOGA because she's afraid the Hindu chanting might send her to hell... yeah, that's unacceptable and "costing us votes"

Anyway, the reason things like this kind of narrow minded (and it is narrow minded), God squad fear of different beliefs and cultures, and fundamentalist religion as a whole in this country are political is because, in case you missed it, the agenda of the GOP is a Theocratic one. Fundamentalist Christianity may not be synonymous with Republicanism, but there's a hell of a lot of overlap. And someone is on a rampage in our society- but it's not "secular whackjobs", it's the religious right.

Therefore, this shit IS political.

Edit: FWIW, *I* think the way to WIN elections is not to chase endlessly after ma and pa kettle with oodles of phony Jesus talk, but to offer them REAL solutions (like a SPHC system) that will make a difference in their lives, while courting the millions of urban, socially libertarian minded voters who don't participate in the system b/c they can't figure out which party is more interested in micro-managing their personal shit.

[LoZoccolo]

139. You keep straying from my points.

I'm not going to beg you to listen to them. They are now there for everyone else to read if not you.

I guess that's okay, though-- but making light fun of a woman who feels the need to alter the basic tenets of YOGA because she's afraid the Hindu chanting might send her to hell... yeah, that's unacceptable and "costing us votes"

It's indicative of a larger parasitism as I said, and one has to start somewhere. As you've said, the Democratic value is one of separation of church and state. This thread, thousands like it, and many more instances give the opposite impression.

Hmmm. Maybe you missed the RAW STORY editorial that suggested "purging" us, but it sounds eerily in line with your sentiments expressed here.

Actually, I would alienate the people who want to - apparently dutifully - play the role given to us by the Republicans, who declared the culture war as a strategy that they picked in order for them to win election after election. Why? Because paradoxically I feel it would help defeat the Republicans and allow for greater separation of church and state. I would do it for their sake! Why let the Republican fight according to their plan, along lines that they've drawn? Apparently this faction of the Democrats doesn't seem to know how to get what they want; their emotions get in the way. You still haven't given me a good reason why this thread is on a political message board. What is it supposed to do? I could tell you what it does do.

That and I can't justify keeping a small contingent that's working hard to alienate a contingent larger than them for apparently no reason. It just makes no sense.

Fundamentalist Christianity may not be synonymous with Republicanism, but there's a hell of a lot of overlap.

There wasn't always as I've established. Still isn't really. And I think I've also established that the Republicans want us to keep on cannibalizing this part of our bloc.

is not to chase endlessly after ma and pa kettle with oodles of phony Jesus talk,

Who advocated that in this thread? Do you even get it?

while courting the millions of urban, socially libertarian minded voters who don't participate in the system b/c they can't figure out which party is more interested in micro-managing their personal shit

I've given you numbers and you've given me the inclinations of your own mind.

[Warren DeMontague]

141. The idea that the culture war is what's been costing us elections is a lie

again, as I mentioned, the majority of Americans are pro-choice. To cite one glaring example.

Now, in addition to deliberately "alienating" this secular contingent that you claim is responsible for alienating this vast wedge of the Democratic party, perhaps you can tell us what positions we need to change to win 'em back? Choice? Vouchers? Gay rights? Legal birth control? Prayer in schools?

Because time and time and time again, from the same sources which give you your dubious "numbers", those are the kinds of issues which these folks CLAIM have driven "them" away from "us".

And not, I repeat, not atheists who make fun of them.

Lastly, as for the "inclinations of my own mind". Well, unfortunately, no one in power seems terribly inclined to listen to the millions of people like me, so perhaps we'll never know. I do know that the same folks peddling the bullshit about how 2004 was about "values" and the all powerful "values voter" were the ones telling us everything about that presidential election (and the one before it) were on the up and up.

Hmmmmm.

For shits and giggles, it'd be nice if someone would try it MY way- lord knows we have enough Democrats pandering to the drunk-on-holy-righteousness crowd. Personally, I think if we ran someone calling unequivocally for an end to the Iraq war, an end to the drug war, a single payer health care system and an end to the war on the choices consenting adults make about their own bodies through all phases of life, we would garner a SHITLOAD more votes than we're ever going to get mining the vast swaths of fundamentalism which already get way more credit electorally than they're ever going to deserve.

But you can content yourself with believing I'm deluded - be my guest- because odds are we'll never run anyone that willing to challenge the status quo, and so we'll never know, will we?

[LoZoccolo]

144. Oh really now?

Let's see, it's at the forefront of the Republican strategy, and our evangelical voters have been switching sides over the last 20 years. It may not be on abortion alone. And the Republicans don't need to be in the majority on one issue to find a way of getting some of us to be some of them. One of the ways they've done this is - I believe - deliberatly causing backlash against part of our own, as exemplified by their emphasis on "moral values" voters despite the fact that it's a shrinking percentage. They want us to take a role acting as you are and as most of the people on this thread are, because it will move just enough voters (and it doesn't take many as per the results of the last two presidential elections) across the aisle for them to win no matter if they are in the majority on abortion or not.

Now, in addition to deliberately "alienating" this secular contingent that you claim is responsible for alienating this vast wedge of the Democratic party, perhaps you can tell us what positions we need to change to win 'em back? Choice? Vouchers? Gay rights? Legal birth control? Prayer in schools?

I advocate not making fun of people who are exercising their first amendment right to practice religion in a political context as I've said several times already. This is consistent with separation of church and state.

For shits and giggles, it'd be nice if someone would try it MY way- lord knows we have enough Democrats pandering to the drunk-on-holy-righteousness crowd. Personally, I think if we ran someone calling unequivocally for an end to the Iraq war, an end to the drug war, a single payer health care system and an end to the war on the choices consenting adults make about their own bodies through all phases of life, we would garner a SHITLOAD more votes than we're ever going to get mining the vast swaths of fundamentalism which already get way more credit electorally than they're ever going to deserve.

Maybe, but they would never win making fun of a Christian exercise program as a political strategy, which is what this thread is about and not all those things you bring up because you keep changing the subject and making my complaint out to be some call to change the Democratic Party platform.

But you can content yourself with believing I'm deluded - be my guest- because odds are we'll never run anyone that willing to challenge the status quo, and so we'll never know, will we?

No, but we'll have plently of our number whittling away plenty other of our number regardless.

[LeftHander]

112. So they added some snake handling....big deal...nt

[Triana]

119. Is there ANYTHING that DOESN'T offend these zealots?

Why does developing 'self-awareness' offend anyone?

This is just SICK.

[anarch]

125. The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say,

"Here is a glutton and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and 'sinners.'" But wisdom is proved right by her actions.

Matthew 11:19


:evilgrin:

[Donald Ian Rankin]

126. What a striking example of intolerance.

This woman decides that she wants to practice a set of physical exercises without also accepting certain spiritual beliefs and practices contradictory and incompatible with her own - not to compel anyone else to abandon those beliefs, or to attack those beliefs, but simply not to accept them herself - and venom gets heaped upon her. Intolerance and bigotry indeed.

[johnnie]

130. Bingo

I read the article and saw nothing that made me believe she was being intolerant of other religions. I read a lot of that on this thread though.

[progressivebydesign]

127. yep. the mega-church in our town has done this for years!!

They actually have a "yoga" class "without the mysticism". OMG. What a bunch of idiots. I do a kundalini yoga DVD, that I love. It has ZERO mysticism in it. It has some chants, but they are calling on YOUR higher self, not some God. ANd.. at the end they end with closing prayers for health, and world peace, and they end by saying.. 'thank you, God bless you". Hardly some sort of mysticysm. Those dumbasses are going to find themselves all tapped out when they realize the teens and younger adults are starting to run away from them screaming because of their narrow minded insistence that EVERYTHING must suit their particlar idea of jesus.

[underpants]

128. Christian yogurt?

:bounce:

This so so funny

[liontamer]

129. honestly what's the problem?

She likes some aspects of yoga, but some don't work for her. She takes out the aspects she doesn't like, and markets her new version to other people who feel the same way.

Yoga practice changes all the time. She clearly labels her version of yoga as different from traditional yoga, so somebody isn't going to confuse whatever she's doing with the real thing.

[One Honest Guy]

140. I saw this on BBC international tonight.

I almost burst into laughter after this one woman started calling out to Jesus, pretty loudly, while doing yoga moves. Christians, they never fail to amuse me. What wacky thing will they do next?

[madeline_con]

142. Doesn't Hinduism encourage a caste system?

Rendering some people "untouchable", and therefore justifying their unfair treatment and exploitation, all under the guise of "religious belief"?

That IS Hinduism, right?

[DanCa]

143. These people aren't christian.

Ya know there conservative theocrats. They practice conservative dogma and if it's not bad enough they want the rest of us to follow in lock stop with them. So whatever you want to call the end timers please don't call them christian. They are anything but.