Jesus Christ!!!! The Israel/Palestine forum is a trip!

[blitzen]

I ventured there for the first time tonight and probably never will again...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=124&topic_id=123862&mesg_id=123862

In short, I got blasted for daring to distinguish between "anti-Semitism" and "anti-current-policy-of-the-nation-state-known-as-Israel"

on this distinction, see www.juancole.com



on edit: Is this a "Free Republic," or what?

[bluestateguy]

1. I generally stay away from it

If I criticize Israeli foreign policy, then I am blasted by someone for not criticizing the Palestinians.

If I criticize a Palestinian suicide bomber, then I am blasted by someone for not criticizing Israeli foreign policy.

So I threw up my hands and gave up on it.

[Ammonium]

2. It's a tough debate with rights and wrongs on both sides

The reality is that it is very tit for tat. You blow up someone in our mall, we'll bulldoze your house and family in the middle of the night, only to repeat the process again next week. They cycle goes on and on and on

[neoblues]

8. Suppose it's something strange in the sunlight there?

Something that just makes people who live there constantly war with each other for decades or centuries over their lands and their religious beliefs/holy places as well as their ethnic backgrounds (though, interestingly, I seem to recall a PBS documentary covering research that basically showed that genetically the two sides are actually the same/indistinguishable--all coming from the same ancestors (Of course, I mean long after the original Eve--the common ancestor to all of us). I wonder if mentioning that would annoy them?--well, without tracking down references I wouldn't even begin to suggest that.)).

Then again, apparently the root (magic sunshine) of such conflict extends to wherever the posters on that forum are. Not to suggest that such behavior isn't actually common to humans all over the world or that the conflicts don't cover a range of all sorts of differences... (Thus, I guess we all get the same sunshine). In any case, it probably is wise to simply avoid such highly charged forums if one wishes to avoid posting sunburn from one or both sides. In such cases, one simply can't please everybody any of the time.

[Peter Frank]

16. Well said (and thought out)...

The only fly in the ointment that I see here is that American policy (foreign & domestic) has largely mirrored the politics of fear in the Mideast -- instead of embracing and trusting in the spirit and the lawfulness of our Constitution.

I would avoid this subject like the plague -- if our "Patriot" act and "Homeland" security weren't born of paranoia. These institutions insult the very fabric of what America was founded on.

America was founded on dreams -- not nightmares. Our hard-won Constitution is soundly based on the dreams (in particular -- the world respected American dream of accomplishing anything you set your mind to).

[Broken_Hero]

3. never ventured in there...

*dons flame suit*...

Man 1:I'm ready

Man II:Than enter, and be careful...those flames are hot.:)

[Catrina]

4. It's an old tactic, meant to stifle free speech. I read recently that

extreme rightwingers are instructed to do that. I wondered about it since it happens so often, it could hardly be sincere. Anyway, don't let it bother you, it's gotten so old, like all the other negative rightwing talking points designed to silence anyone with 'an unacceptable opinion or who might present a fact that it is not acceptable to present' people just laugh now, it's so predictable ~ :-)

I used to try to explain how wrong they were also, now as soon as I see that, I put the poster on ignore ~ I just assume it's someone who has an agenda, rather than a rational person willing to discuss issues.

[anitar1]

12. Most of the OP's are by the same person. n/t

[Random_Australian]

5. That is because you are a plant by... uh... wait, who's side were

you on again? Well your are from the secret service of that side. Or the other side. Or America. Or Poland.

Got it: You are a shill and a plant from The Federated States Of Micronesia! Admit it!



;)

[Behind the Aegis]

6. .

:eyes:

[DrDebug]

7. A mod who had to moderate that forum ....

described it as standing on the border between Israel and Palestine and being attacked from both sides simultaneous.

The forum was created so most posters at DU don't get to see the permanent flame fest. Just think of it as a topic wide ignore button.

[blitzen]

9. Good advice...I thought I would try to contribute to the dialogue...

but that was a bad idea.

I see why the mods put a "firewall" around that forum.

[benburch]

10. Whatever you do, never mention the USS Liberty incident there.

http://www.ussliberty.org/

[Name removed]

11. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Lexingtonian]

13. Just remember

that the I/P forum is in a relative lull of inactivity and relative sanity at the moment.

And yes, Hell consists of people chained to computers and forced to moderate it.

[Peace Patriot]

14. The Israelis & the Palestinians are a lot like the English and the Irish-

it's a family fight, the bloodiest and most unforgiving of all. I also find parallels to early American settlers/Native Americans, except that the Israelis have a right to be there--it's their homeland, too--(unlike the early Americans who were genuine intruders and just plain stole the entire country).

Some of those who are pro-Israel, who feel this heart-tug of the homeland--which I think touches Jews especially deeply--are hysterical (there is no other word for it) that the U.S. will turn against Israel, and not support it militarily and diplomatically, and Israel will then be isolated amidst hostile neighbors. And there has never been more likelihood of a backlash against Israel than there is now, since Israel lobbyists and Israel-connected Neo-Cons have led us into unjust war in the Middle East, at an enormous expense in life, in our democratic institutions and in money--and in the trashing and looting of our economy by war profiteers.

I think that's one of the reasons why the Israel/Palestine forum is so difficult--fear, on both sides. The pro-Israel faction fearful of losing U.S. support for Israel, in a time when that support may well be imperiled. The Palestinian faction fearful because the U.S. and its war profiteering corporate news monopolies have never presented their side fairly, and have been even less inclined to do so since 9/11, and that leaves the Palestinians in the same position as Native Americans were, 100 to 150 years ago: less than human, their rights are not important, their deaths don't count, "they're just Arabs."

It is a great loss to DU that Israeli/Palestinian issues cannot be discussed without fear and without hysteria, and without this screaming tone of self-righteousness that grips the two sides--because Israel/Palestine IS the source of ALL of our major problems in the world, and at home. It is the heart of the matter. DU in this sense reflects America as a whole.

[Benbow]

15. Objection - when did the English bulldoze Irish houses? Never

That probably sounded like a juicy sound-bite to you but it is horribly inaccurate. No matter how many innocent people the Irish bombers killed - in shopping centres and pubs - none of their homes was bulldozed by the English.

I am a Brit, with both English and Irish forebears (only a couple of generations back) - I have Celtic "colouring".

[bobalu]

20. ...Sorry, but you are incorrect. The English DID, in fact, either level

the houses of the Irish during the Irish Potato Famine, or simply through them out...This at a time when their crop (not their only crop, but the only one the English didn't umm "liberate" to send back to England) was failing and they were starving...They continued to let the Irish starve until word got back to the World and their were loud outcries against it.

[Behind the Aegis]

18. So close, yet so far...

Your post is way off for many reasons. Although it would seem to be benign, and even may appear neutral, it is anything but.

The Israelis & the Palestinians are a lot like the English and the Irish- it's a family fight, the bloodiest and most unforgiving of all. I also find parallels to early American settlers/Native Americans, except that the Israelis have a right to be there--it's their homeland, too--(unlike the early Americans who were genuine intruders and just plain stole the entire country).

In your opening paragraph, it seems that you are, in fact, neutral. You even assert that Israelis have the right to live in Israel. However, your comparisons to early Americans, despite your disqualification of an exact similarity, could be seen as an implication used by many in regards to Israel. Simply, your parallel could be seen as Israelis are "...genuine intruders and just plain stole the entire country."

Some of those who are pro-Israel, who feel this heart-tug of the homeland--which I think touches Jews especially deeply--are hysterical (there is no other word for it) that the U.S. will turn against Israel, and not support it militarily and diplomatically, and Israel will then be isolated amidst hostile neighbors. And there has never been more likelihood of a backlash against Israel than there is now, since Israel lobbyists and Israel-connected Neo-Cons have led us into unjust war in the Middle East, at an enormous expense in life, in our democratic institutions and in money--and in the trashing and looting of our economy by war profiteers.

In the aforementioned paragraph, you say nothing about those who are pro-Palestinian. Why is that? Why are many of the pro-Palestinians not even Muslim or Arabs? If you can understand, which you then denigrate, why Jews are supportive of Israel, why not explain why so many pro-Palestinians are neither Muslim nor Arab?

So we are clear, I do not speak for all Jews, nor do I speak for all who claim to be pro-Israeli, I am speaking for me! There is a slight fear the US will turn on Israel, because the rest of the world has! The fear is real because of people claiming that "...Israel lobbyists and Israel-connected Neo-Cons have led us into unjust war in the Middle East, at an enormous expense in life, in our democratic institutions and in money--and in the trashing and looting of our economy by war profiteers." Basically, you are blaming Israel for the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq. That is not uncommon, but it is wrong.

I think that's one of the reasons why the Israel/Palestine forum is so difficult--fear, on both sides. The pro-Israel faction fearful of losing U.S. support for Israel, in a time when that support may well be imperiled. The Palestinian faction fearful because the U.S. and its war profiteering corporate news monopolies have never presented their side fairly, and have been even less inclined to do so since 9/11, and that leaves the Palestinians in the same position as Native Americans were, 100 to 150 years ago: less than human, their rights are not important, their deaths don't count, "they're just Arabs."

This paragraph is very revealing of your true attitude! You are anything but neutral! You state that "fear" is the motivation of the difficulties of both sides, but then turn and say the fear of the pro-Israeli group is "loss of power" and the fear of the pro-Palestinian group is fear of "bad press," then equate them to Native Americans, much like your first paragraph. The pro-Israelis, in my opinion, are afraid that the US will abandon Israel. If that happens, then the very real possibility exists that Israel will cease to exist! The pro-Israelis and many Jews do not have the desire to see Jews wiped out again, only to have the world wring their hands in dismay and say, "where did we go wrong!" Israel will not go "silently into that good night!"

It is a great loss to DU that Israeli/Palestinian issues cannot be discussed without fear and without hysteria, and without this screaming tone of self-righteousness that grips the two sides--because Israel/Palestine IS the source of ALL of our major problems in the world, and at home. It is the heart of the matter. DU in this sense reflects America as a whole.

This last paragraph is the 'clincher' in your biased post. You state that the I/P situation "...IS the source of ALL of our major problems in the world, and at home. It is the heart of the matter." Your other paragraphs clearly point out that, in your opinion as I read it, Israel is the problem. You lay the blame of "..."ALL of our major problems in the world, squarely at the feet of Israel!

Are you really interested in the point of someone who is pro-Israeli? If so, I will finish that thought!

[TomClash]

17. What's wrong with criticism?

AND SUCH DEBATE IS NOT LIMITED TO DU.

It's a hotly debated issue - one current and well known candidate formed a committee to chart a policy on the issue but the meetings were so contentious that it had to be scrapped.

I post there sometimes and I have "ignored" a couple of posters there, including Blitzen's new friend.

There are far worse places for debate in the internet universe - at least no one is a Freeper.

[Karmakaze]

19. If you do go back...

Whatever you do, don't mention the word "hasbara".

[wakeme2008]

21. Almost as much fun as the Gun R US forum

:rofl:

[Moderator]

22. Locking

Do not start a new topic in order to continue a flame war from another discussion thread.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/forums/rules_detailed.html