Does Anybody know what it takes to convert an engine to Ethanol?

[maine_raptor]

Have a discussion on another forum about Ethanol and one person keeps insisting that in order for a car/truck to run on Ethanol the engine has to be built to run it from the start. Yet I have heard that in Brazil they converted their engines to run this fuel. So does anybody know what it takes to do the conversion?

[dipsydoodle]

1. From memory

the original conversions in Brazil, back in the eighties, were to VW Beetles which had no engine management system. Not too sure what they get up to these days. Apparently , over here in the UK there are only two cars which will run on the stuff and they are a specific Toyota model and an equally specific small Ford hatchback. I gather that engines run hotter on enthanol - sound right ?

[maine_raptor]

3. Not sure.

Not being a car mechanic, I don't know about these things, but it would seem to me that some sort of modification to the carburetor/fuel injection system would be needed. Now since a lot of this stuff is now control vis computer chips, wouldn't a swap out of the chip be needed?

[dipsydoodle]

13. Have a root through this

Might be of help to you especially as it's an unbiased engineering site.
http://www.eng-tips.com/viewthread.cfm?qid=43086

WW2 re-enactment - what you do bomb Dresden ?

[maine_raptor]

16. Thanks for the link

Ahh...err.........."WW2 re-enactment - what you do bomb Dresden ?"

Huh?

[dipsydoodle]

18. Sorry

I mis-read your hobby.

[maine_raptor]

24. No you didn't

I like to fly WWII Combat Flight sims...........as a virtual fighter pilot. One uncle was a bombardier in a B-17 during WWII (shot down during the Black Tuesday raid in '43 and spent 2 1/2 yrs as a POW) and another flew F4U Corsairs for USMC in the Pacific.

I admired both men for their courage and service and what I do as a hobby is a tribute to them and an attempt to understand what they did for this country.

[Debau2005]

2. Heard on the radio

this morning that there is a still maker in Tennessee selling them to consumers to make their own ethanol for about 75 cents a gallon. The radio news did not give the name of the company.

[ms liberty]

4. my husband heard that same story, it was on AP News...n/t

[Random_Australian]

5. Most engines can run blends, but only heavily modified ones/

ones buiilt from scratch can run on pure ethanol.

About 15% is the max for non-modified engines, IIRC.

[maine_raptor]

6. Ok, so what does it take to modify one? n/t

[Tesha]

11. ROM changes in the engine management computer?

The big problem is that you need to provide more fuel
(alcohol) for the same amount of air.

It was easy when cars used mechanical carburetors: you
just changed the "jets" and the carbs sprated more fuel
into the airstream.

Nowadays, it's all computer controlled and the amount
of fuel is regulated by a sensor in the exhaust pipe
that sniffs for any unused oxygen coming through the
engine.

In a way, that's good: It means the computer will
automatically accommodate to small changes in the fuel
(like 10% ethanol added simply as an oxygenate). But
if the fuel is radically, different, the computer may
notice it's using far more fuel than it thinks ought
to be necessary and light the "Check Engine!" light
as a warning to you.

This is all controlled by a computer program stored in
a ROM ("Read-Only Memory") chip or a Flash (reprogrammable)
ROM. If the mix is too far from standard, you may need
a new computer program.

(There's more to it than that, but that's the big item.)

Tesha

[maine_raptor]

12. Actually that may not be that big of a problem.

ROM chips can be easily swapped out once they are re-programmed correctly. I would not be surprised to see someone selling these quite shortly. In fact, you could have a board in the car that contains two chips, one for gasoline and one for ethanol with a simple switch on the dashboard for the driver.

[Tesha]

14. (It's developing the firmware that is the challenge)

> Actually that may not be that big of a problem.

It's developing the firmware that is the challenge. While there
are lots of "chippers" for high-performance cars right now (my
Porsche was purchased already "chipped", although I also was
given the factory ROM), there probably aren't that many doing
EtOH conversions for the mom-and-pop cars; that market will
need to develop.

And a lot of new cars are "flash", not pluggable ROM, so you'll
need the right gear to re-flash the cars.

Tesha

[maine_raptor]

15. I know

Ex-systems designer here. But really once the software is developed, then the product will appear. My understanding is that GM already has that in place for its newer cars and trucks. If that is the case then the after-market crowd will soon follow.

[papau]

7. The 1980 Morther Earth News Article Link below

http://running_on_alcohol.tripod.com/id32.html
Mothers Alcohol Fuel Seminar
© The Mother Earth News, 1980

How To Adapt Your Automobile Engine For Ethyl Alcohol Use
Now that we've explained the fundamental differences between alcohol and gasoline fuels, we can get on with the actual conversion of a conventional gasoline-burning engine to alcohol use. We'll cover the three major changes (main jet, idle jet, and timing), and we'll also go on to cover some other areas that may be of interest to those who want to go further to increase the efficiency of their alcohol-burning engines.

MAINJET CHANGES
The first thing you'll have to alter is the main metering jet in your carburetor. In most carburetors, this is a threaded brass plug with a specific-sized hole drilled through the center of it. This hole is called the main jet orifice, and its diameter dictates how rich or lean the air/fuel mixture will be when the car is traveling at cruising speeds. Naturally, the smaller the hole is, the less fuel will blend with the air and the leaner the mixture will be. As the orifice is enlarged, the mixture gets richer.

Since alcohol requires a richer air/fuel ratio, it's necessary to bore out the main jet orifice when using ethanol fuel. The standard jet size in MOTHER's alcohol-powered truck was .056" ... in other words, this was the diameter of the jet orifice. In order to operate the engine successfully on alcohol fuel, it's necessary to enlarge this opening by anywhere from 20 to 40%.

Start your conversion by gathering all the tools and hardware you'll need to complete the job. A screwdriver, an assortment of end wrenches, visegrip pliers, a putty knife, a pair of needle-nose pliers, and a power drill - with bits ranging in size from a No. 51 (.067") to a No. 46 (.081") are usually all you'll need. To make your job easier, though, you might want to refer to a Motor, Chilton, or Glenn auto repair manual for exploded illustrations to guide you through the necessary carburetor disassembly and reassembly. (A second alternative would be to purchase a carburetor rebuilding kit for your make and model car ... which will not only supply you with a working diagram, but provide gaskets, seals, and other parts that may get damaged during the stripdown process.)

You may also need to purchase several main jet assemblies from your auto dealer (if the carburetor you're converting has a removable main jet), since you'll probably want to experiment with different air/fuel ratios.

In order to take the carburetor apart, you'll first have to remove its air filter housing and all its hoses, tubes, and paraphernalia from the engine. Then disconnect the throttle linkage from the engine and any choke linkage rods that aren't self-contained on the carburetor body. (If you've got a manual choke, remove its cable and tie it out of the way.)

You'll also have to unscrew the fuel line from the carburetor inlet fitting and remove any other hoses that fasten to the unit, including vacuum and other air control lines.

When the carburetor is free from all external attachments, remove it from the manifold by loosening the hold-down bolts at its base, and turn the unit upside down to drain out any gasoline that may be in the float bowl. Remove the carb's air horn (you may have to unfasten the choke stepdown linkage rod) and locate the main jet. (Some carburetors have the jet installed in a main well support, while others mount the brass fixture right in the float bowl body.)
<snip>

The above is a very long article.

[maine_raptor]

10. Thanks, just the info I was looking for n/t

[slaveplanet]

22. Custom pistons

Ethanol works best with extremely high compression(race car stuff)pressures. Of course when you run high pressures you need to beef up everything else. I think that's what they mean by purpose built.
You, of course, can run the lower pressure standard gas engines on ethanol but you'll be noticeably down on power(and mileage). So blends are recommended depending on your efficiency.

Keep in mind, in most regions, they're already diluting our gas 10% of what it used to be,
so there's already a built in loss of mileage, in exchange for a slightly cleaner burn.

I'd rather have E10 than an MTBE fuel. I suspect we lose mileage(when compared with 100% straight gas) with both though.

It's hard to remember back, but people were complaining about massive mileage drop-off when they first introduced California's oxygenated winter fuels.

And E10 fuels caused some problems in certain older models that were designed for straight gas.

The problems have been engineered out on late models.

[jmowreader]

8. It's not all that hard, but you need quite a few parts

You must first convert all your rubber parts to run in ethanol because if you're not running Viton or EPDM rubber hoses and seals, or braided stainless aircraft hose, the alcohol will pull the plasticizers out of the rubber and turn it rock hard. We're specifically talking seals and hoses.

Oh yeah: when you're dealing with the hose, PLEASE make sure you know what kind of induction system's on your car. There are Carburetor hoses (no more than 5-6 psi) and Fuel Injection hoses (40-50 psi, unless you're runnin' a diesel and then the pressures are really up there)

The fuel injector seals they sell today are alcohol-proof, so if you just change them to new ones you're fine.

Next is the engine itself. Alcohol produces less heat per gallon than gasoline does--76,000btu for ethanol, around 125,000btu for gasoline. My calculator says that's a ratio of 1.6:1...or, in English, you need to dump 1.6 gallons of ethanol into your car to go as far as you will on one gallon of gasoline. So ya got three choices. The first is to screw with the induction system on the engine you have so it allows 1.6 times as much fuel to go into the engine. The second is to change to an engine that's more efficient, or to work on the engine you have to make it more efficient. The easy one is to buy a car that's more efficient and modify it. (This goes with the obvious need to get your foot out of the gas, but you'll do that no matter which way you go.)

Or...you could just say the hell with it, buy a diesel and run it on biodiesel--which is better because you're not dealing with a fuel whose production requires more btus than you get out of it when you use it. Oh yeah...your exhaust smells like french fries when you burn B100 biodiesel, and that's fun too.

[HereSince1628]

9. Anyone know how to make/operate a home rig to press oil from corn or soy?

Making and distilling EtOH is something a lot of people know how to do. Lots of folks with country connections have access to corn and soy, but I've never seen anything about do-it-yourself corn/soy oil.

[atomic-fly]

20. That is what I'd like to know...

I'd like to run my oil furnace off biofuel.
I have enough room in my yard to grow lots of corn.

[jmowreader]

26. How to make an oilseed press

http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel_library/oilpress.html

This is a very small one, but the principle is the same no matter how big it gets.

[Broadslidin]

17. 76,000 BTUs per Gallon of Ethanol, is Spot On........!

Tis true, ethanol-blended gasoline
will not take you as far.

Obviously,
with substantially fewer BTUs in ethanol than gasoline,
more fossil fuel energy is required to produce
a gallon of ethanol than it actually contains.

You can hear them now,
Archer Daniel Midland executives back slapping and laughing
at how easy it is to manipulate da people with
slick patriotic propaganda.
After all,
something has to be done with the warehoused mountains
of heavily 'Federal Subsidized' corn.

Might add,
due to ethanol's corrosiveness and corruption
of fuel system aluminum and rubber components,
a person should take for granted,
witnessing far more vehicles engulfed in flames
and burned out hulks
abandoned along our strip mall roads.

Communist China will surely make good use our only export:
scrap steel.

[lectrobyte]

19. I thought a lot of Ford trucks were compatible already. Basically,

the computer needs to be able to adjust the air/fuel mixture enough to support burning ethanol. If you car is carburetted, then you probably need to replace seals and flexible lines, and probably re-jet it to get it rich enough. Google is your friend.

[Broadslidin]

23. Brazil Obtains Its Ethanol From Sugar Cane, Not corn.

For decades,
the Brazilian government has been well aware,
acquiring ethanol from corn requires
a highly prohibitive government corn financial subsidy.

As for the U.S. (credit worthy?) empire,
$100 Billion dollar farm subsidies
demanded by Archers Daniel Midland and Cargill,
Hey, No Problem!

May our Communist Chinese business associates
continue to make available U.S. currency loans
to the corporate owned U.S. government
and our giving gratefully in return to the Communist Chinese
as collateral,
a controlling interest in the U.S. empire's shell game,
the federal banking system.

[wishlist]

21. My 99 Dodge Caravan has gas cover sticker saying Ethanol can be used

If my older van has such a sticker (saying that Ethanol or unleaded gas can be used) I would guess many other makes and models are already also compatible for Ethanol use.

[MadHound]

25. You can convert your car to run ethanol blend, but

You would almost be better off building the engine from scratch rather than trying to convert.

First off, due to the corrosive nature of ethanol, you are going to have change over virtually every seal and hose in your engine. If you have fuel injectors, you're going to have to get different ones that can handle ethanol. If your car has a computer that regulates your injection system and the combustion, you're going to have to get a new one that has the requirements for ethanol programmed in. A reinforced muffler. New oil seals and rings built for ethanol. Will probably want dual tipped spark plugs for better ignition. Speaking of which you'll have to either buy a new distributor or reconfigure your old one. Same with timing. The list of things you would have to do for a conversion is a long one, and probably more expensive than just buying an ethanol ready engine off the shelf.

Whereas if you want to burn a biofuel, why not look into burning biodiesel? The only conversion you could possibly need on any diesel engine is to replace your neoprene fuel lines with metal. Other than that, any diesel engine is ready from the get go to run on biodiesel, and it is actually better for the engine to do so. And with the new biodiesel kits, it is both easy and economical to make your own biodiesel, aprox seventy cents per gallon to make.

Whereas if you're making your own ethanol, you're not only going to have to get your local liquor control agents involved(distilling spirits, for whatever purpose, is against the law unless you have a liquor license and pay some serious fees) and probably the EPA, being as the process for making ethanol makes some toxic waste. Biodiesel on the other hand doesn't require any permits, and all of the waste is biodegradable.