Alternatives to Gas Cars, there are real solutions

[jsamuel]

Poll question: Alternatives to Gas Cars, there are real solutions

Very interresting alternatives are available to gas cars.

Such as this:
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2005/04/solar_electric_.html

Solar Electric Hybrid Prototype on Display in Queensland
19 April 2005
Ultracommuter



The University of Queensland's Sustainable Energy Research Lab (SERL) is displaying its two-seater solar electric hybrid prototype--the UltraCommuter--as part of the Royal Automobile Club of Queensland's centenary events.

Spawned by SERL's work on the SunShark solar vehicle in 2000, the UltraCommuter is an ultra-light weight, low drag, hybrid-electric commuter vehicle that combines photovoltaic recharging and grid recharging with a CNG-fueled range-extending generator.

Two-and-a-half square metres of solar panels provide 375 Watts of electric power, meeting 87% of the car's total power needs and cutting greenhouse emissions by 97 percent compared to a conventional sedan (Australia's Holden Commodore).

We need to start lobbying for mass production of these kinds of alternatives. Lets look at more possibilities...


Since the US is such a large mass with rural populations making up most of the mass, a massive public transportation system could be implimented to supply some alternatives. However, the cost of such a system would probably cost more than our country could spend. So, I am going to concentrate on a smaller, simpler solution for now.

A simple solar additive to a Prius is a no-brainer for starters:
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2005/08/solarpoweraugme.html

Solar-Power-Augmented Prius Takes the Grid Out of "Plug-in"
15 August 2005
Pvprius
Lapp's PV Prius

A Canadian engineer has prototyped a Photovoltaic Prius--a 2001 Prius augmented with roof-top solar panels and an additional battery system to supplement the charge in the original equipment NiMH batteries.

Steve Lapp's PV Prius is still a rough prototype--a demonstration of concept--but even with the limitations of the systems, he has achieved an initial 10% fuel efficiency improvement from 4.5 l/100km (52 mpg US) to 4.0 l/100km (59 mpg US).

Who knows what better improvements could be made with a system made by Toyota and a full body of solar panels? The only reason no one uses them is because no one uses them. They are too expensive because they aren't being mass produced, because people think they are too expensive. This is where support from the government could really see a large improvement in solar production.

What about having the OPTION to plug in your car at night? For example, give your Prius the ability to charge it's battery at night. The idea could let many people get to work and back up to 15 miles away and never switch over to gas. This blog suggests the idea:
http://alt-e.blogspot.com/2004/09/hybrid-cars-forbesnewsweek-discussion.html

Toyota's promotional material for the Prius assures buyers they won't have to plug in their cars. But why shouldn't we have the option to plug in our cars if we want to? Electricity is much cheaper than gasoline and if it's generated from clean renewable sources like wind power produces zero emissions. Companies like Ford who recently scrapped production of an all electric model would prefer to promote a distant hydrogen future than manufacture electric cars today.

"What is the latest on the "strong" hybrids that can be switched to run on electricity or fuel? I hear these class of hybrids would be able to run around town at speeds of say 35 to 40 mph on electricity and not go to fuel unless it had to run at higher speeds for a long distance trip." -

Imagine plugging your car in at home or work or at a free street recharging point. Sound unrealistic? Well we already have an extensive electricity infrastructure whereas no hydrogen infrastructure at all currently exists. By having "strong" hybrids we can plug into a clean renewable electricity supply helping wean ourselves off our oil addiction.

I suggest if you want more information, do a google search. Lots of Universities are doing research as well.
(cross posted at DailyKos: http://www.dailykos.com/story/2006/4/28/13130/5787 )


If one of these cars were commercially available, would you consider buying one?

[jsamuel]

1. If you vote no or other, could you please explain why?

I would like to know so that I can see what issues need to be resolved.

[Lib Grrrrl]

7. I Voted Other - Now I'll Explain

I live in a very rural area. what if I run out of power in the middle of nowhere?? will there be enough "recharge stations" along the way, so that I won't have problems? solar panels only work when it's sunny, right? I do a lot of night driving, so solar panels might not help me out in such a situation.

I don't want to get stuck somewhere where I cannot get help. Cell phone service is often erractic in rural areas. Not fun being broke down, in a rural area, at night, as a woman alone, with a cell phone that won't work!

Now, I have driven a regular Prius before (a friend of mine has one) and if I didn't know better, I wouldn't have known I was driving a hybrid...it really is that good!

But I still have my "WHAT IFS."

A regular Prius...yes, I'd buy one.

What you are talking about this solar/electric hybrid, with NO GAS...that scares me. WHAT IF I lose power?? If there were a small tank of GAS on it as well, which could be utilized in just such an emergency...I'd be more comfortable with the idea.

Or if I knew there would be plenty of "recharge stations" along the way. Or if there was a spare battery power pack back-up source of power...something that would enable you to get somewhere in an emergency...

That, and, of course, cost...would have to be a consideration as well, since I'm a poor-ass...

[jsamuel]

11. it has gas

read the whole thing

it is natural gas

[Lib Grrrrl]

17. I Dont See That

in anything you posted, I see no mention of natural gas. Care to point it out for me, please?

[jsamuel]

20. read the whole thing, I can't post more than three paragraphs

because of DU rules:
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2005/04/solar_electric_.html

"For longer journeys compressed natural gas (CNG) powers a 10 kW generator to feed electricity into the batteries, producing a total range of 500 km (310 miles)."

[Xithras]

18. I would NEVER drive a natural gas car.

Incredibly dangerous. When I was a kid, my stepdad had an old Chevy pickup with a propane kit on it. He drove it for years without any problems...and without having to mess with gasoline at all. In 1989, he was hit by a driver who'd run a red light. The impact severed the main propane line from the tank to the motor and IMMEDIATELY ignited the propane. The explosion resistant tank worked beautifully and kept the truck from detonating, but the now uncapped tank acted like a cutting torch as it vented its gas. My stepdad got out OK, but the guy in the car that hit him suffered major burns.

Here's the kicker: When the fire department arrived and found out what was in the truck, they didn't even TRY to fight the fire...they just got everyone away from it. Unlike a gasoline fire, there's simply no way to extinguish a natural gas or propane fire once they start in a vehicle. You have to wait for the gas to burn itself out, and THEN extinguish any secondary fires in the wreckage.

Compressed flammable gasses in cars are incredibly dangerous, no matter what its proponents might like you to believe. My stepdad was a huge supporter of gas vehicles before that wreck, but once he saw that fire any belief he had in them evaporated.

[jsamuel]

21. wow, thanks for that useful information

[wuushew]

22. Peak oil will mean the death of rural Amerika

versus increased transportation costs the luxury of living in the boonies will be an option only for the rich.

Perhaps when this formally rural population moves into cities, Amerika can emulate the social and infrastructure model of Europe when the electoral landscape shifts enough to break the stranglehold of conservatism.

[jsamuel]

24. um, the problem is that like 80% of the country would be vacant

while 100% of the population would be living on top of each other...

your suggestion that everyone move into the city is impossible (at best)

[wuushew]

25. why is increased population density not possible?

nor desirable? Certainly mass transit solutions are easier to implement in such an environment and I certainly don't advocate the abandonment of agricultural land.

[eleny]

2. The solar augmented Prius

Because the Prius has been around for a while. I figure it would probably be the most reliable. We live in Colorado, have lots of sunshine and park our vehicles outdoors.

[LaurenG]

3. Free energy absolutely however

will the powers that be give up all that $$ that they won't be getting by selling us something?

[jsamuel]

4. yes, good point, that is where we and the government comes in

I think this is where we need to stake a claim.

[satya]

5. Why wait? Biodiesel is available right now. I use it exclusively in my

Jetta. You can use it in ANY diesel car (some older cars may need to have older rubber hoses replaced first). I pay $3.19/gal -- it's a question of ethics, not $ for me. But you can get the equipment to make your own fuel; initial investment is (I believe) about $1000 -- get a few of your buddies to kick in. Once you have the equipment, I'm told that the cost per gallon to make it yourself is about 75 cents.

You can also buy a kit to convert your diesel car to run on used fryer oil. Fill 'er up at McD's.

http://www.greasecar.com/
http://www.greasel.com/

[Chemical Bill]

12. Exactly, you put your money where your mouth is. WTG n/t

[jsamuel]

23. is it clean?

[jsamuel]

26. cleaner than gas, but not clean

Q Will a greasecar fuel system reduce emissions?

A Yes. There is no sulfur content in vegetable oil which eliminates the first major carcinogen associated with diesel fuel. Vegetable oil plants absorb more carbon dioxide from the air during their growing cycle that is released when the oil is burned, this means that vegetable oil does not produce excess carbon dioxide in the atmosphere (this is referred to as carbon neutral). Due to a slightly cooler burn some studies have shown NOX reductions when burning vegetable oil. More studies are underway and results will vary depending on engine and tuning. As a sulfur free, bio-mass fuel vegetable oil emissions are less harmful to the environment and less toxic to people and animals.

http://www.greasecar.com/faq.cfm

[jsamuel]

27. well, if it is cleaner, but not clean, then isn't the biggest boost for

using it is to help out the wallet...

It isn't really a solution, but it is a less dirty and less costly alternative.

[Coastie for Truth]

6. Solar has limitations

PV is really on good for the UV portion of spectrum, and has a cobersion efficieny for UV of about 15%.

[SoCalDem]

8. I know there are fantastic cars in the works, BUT

there are MILLIONS and BRAZILLIONS of people out here who have to drive older cars until they literally fall apart, because they cannot AFFORD anything better.

Going out on a flame-freeway here, but until "a car for the masses" comes along..one that is enviro-friendly and CHEAP, only the richie-rich types can afford to be "fuel-efficient and enviro-friendly"..

Hitler's "volkswagen" was a success because it was easy to repair, cheap to operate, and poor folks could afford one.

We would LOVE to buy a new hybrid, BUT car payments and the insurance on a new vehicle would be a budget buster for us.. I know I am not alone in this situation.

[Dhalgren]

9. You're right. The considerations you raise are rarely addressed

in conversations regarding alternative energy options. To be really successful, these vehicles need to be affordable up front...

[jsamuel]

10. absolutely correct

the best way to lower their prices is to mass produce the expensive components
That is why they are expensive now.

[Chemical Bill]

13. A used diesel can run biodiesel now. n/t

[aint_no_life_nowhere]

14. You are quite right

The Maya 100, for example, an all-electric car now being sold by a Canadian company in Scandanavia reportedly has a 230 mile range at 80 mph.

http://www.electrovaya.com/innovation/zev_tech.html

But the cost is $70,000. It's certainly not a car for the proletariat. I think advances in technology like ultralight, high-storage lithium ion superpolymer batteries, advances such as solar ultra thin film panels that are more and more efficient (to the point eventually where they can be painted onto the body and glass of a car and capture a high percentage of the energy of the sun) will take a long time, maybe more than a decade. In the meantime, we need intermediary solutions, like a no-frills two-passenger small turbo diesel hybrid aluminum, kevlar, or fiberglass body car that can run on diesel or biodiesel or gas or ethanol, where weight has been reduced to the absolute minimum. These cars need to be affordable, as you say. Personally, I don't see ethanol or biodiesel as the ultimate solution, because the mass growing of crops takes up too much land, too much water, and consumes too much energy. Somewhere I read that to run the average American car for a year on ethanol would require somewhere between 10 and 15 acres. But ethanol and biodiesel has to play a short-term role until better technology comes along. I think we also have to wake up to the idea of population REDUCTION on earth, not just population stability. The latter, to me, is as big a factor as anything else.

[Lib Grrrrl]

16. Population Reduction?

Are you willing to be one of the ones "reduced" out of existence?

Of course, that is what Bush and his cronies are up to, right now. Trying to make the very poor die off.

[aint_no_life_nowhere]

19. No, I do not believe in killing anyone or doing away with anyone

I don't even believe in forced abortions or laws forbidding a certain number of familes. I do believe in leadership. I would applaud a President making a major issue of speaking to the American people and to the world of the necessity to reduce family size, to use abortion when desired, to use contraception, to have sex education, to have only one child if possible because it's good for the planet. I would support a separate Cabinet level department in the U.S. government concerning population and the dwindling natural resources in this country and on this planet. If everyone lived like Americans, we'd need 3 to 6 planet earths. Our population growth is something we can control ourselves. We can't control planet size or its ability to support unlimited population while preserving quality of life.

[AndyTiedye]

15. There Will Be Used Hybrids Going On the Market When These Come Out