The Sex Police State . . .

[OneBlueSky]

by Michael Kuehl
CounterPunch.org
April 14/16, 2006

http://www.counterpunch.org/kuehl04152006.html

William F. Buckley reminisces about a dinner in Monaco with Prince Rainier and David Niven:

"Waiting for the first course to arrive, David Launched into an autobiographical account of his seduction at age 15 by an accomplished lady of the night. The words spoken were lightly ribald, amusing, evocative. Before the second course was served, the prince was a rollicking companion..." (William F. Buckley, "10 Friends," Forbes FYI, Fall 2000, p. 138.)

Obviously, in telling this "ribald" and "rollicking" tale, Niven didn't think of himself as a "victim" of "rape" or "child sexual abuse." Nor did Buckley, Rainier, or anyone else, male or female, think any such thing. Nor, apparently, did Buckley and the editors of Forbes FYI think any such thing in 2000, when this article was published. And indeed, even today, many people would react like the prince or with a more subdued amusement.

But if Niven were alive today and had "launched" into this "autobiographical account" as the guest speaker at a convention of "mental health professionals," social workers, police investigators, victim's advocates, prosecutors, and judges, virtually no one would be "rollicking," or even mildly amused. At best or worst, there might be some nervous laughter concealed by hands over mouths. Almost to a man, and especially woman, poor David would be viewed as a "victim" of "child sexual abuse," and his delight in telling this story would be attributed to "denial" and/or "male socialization." The virtually unanimous response would be indignation, for many even rage, directed at the "rapist" and especially a society that could brainwash a "victim" and "survivor" into believing he enjoyed a heinous and life-destroying violation.

If Niven's joyous "rite of passage" or "coming of age" had occurred in America today and was reported to the authorities, the "accomplished lady of the night" would be sentenced to anywhere from 6-months in county jail, if lucky, to 10 years in prison. At sentencing, prosecutors and psychiatrists would compare his trauma to that of people who've experienced warfare, torture, vicious beatings, dog attacks, gruesome car accidents, and internment in concentration camps. The woman would be classified as a deviant and compelled to underago "sex-offender treatment" as well as register with the police for 20 years if not the rest of her life so people could be notifed that a "convicted sex offender" is living in their community or neighborhood. And so, too, with the woman played by Jennifer O'Neal in The Summer of 42. If this movie were remade today, it should end or begin with Jennifer O'Neal being transported to prison in handcuffs attached to a waistchain and leg-irons.

- more . . .

http://www.counterpunch.org/kuehl04152006.html

[Warren DeMontague]

1. I think it should be against the law...

...to mention "Sex" and "William F. Buckley" in the same paragraph.

[valerief]

9. LOL! I second the motion! n/t

[Protagoras]

22. That was definately a 3 point shot

:dilemma:

[IntravenousDemilo]

2. The author refers to James Woods as a "Hollywood liberal". Haha. n/m

[FloridaPat]

3. I read David Niven's autobiography. He was one of my favorite

actors. He went to a boarding school in Britian. He was also seduced by a male teacher there. Traded sex for a harmonica or something. Didn't think much about that either. Just wondered why the British sent their sons to boarding schools at such a gullible age into the hands of people like his teacher.

[lostexpectation]

18. homosexual sex with your teacher for trinkets, ah the good old days???

this article makes about as much sense as the whackjob athiests ones...

I wouln't prosecute the prostitute but there are new standards

[readmoreoften]

39. would "heterosexual" sex be a little better? /nt

[lostexpectation]

56. no

[Canuckistanian]

20. "The Moon's a Baloon"?

I read it too. Hilarious. I always thought of Niven as one of those "distunguished British actors".

He was randier than a sailor on shore leave after a two-year cruise.

[FloridaPat]

30. That was the book. Loved it.

[havocmom]

40. Pick up Bring On the Empty Horses if you haven't read it already

It is about the movie business and is also a hoot!

[Joe Fields]

45. There is no doubt that Europeans are much less hung up about

sex than Americans. We do obsess and freak out about it way too much. Europeans are more matter of fact about sex issues.

[flordehinojos]

4. how refreshing to read that somewhere, sometime, sex was viewed as

something that happened between two people. having come from a culture where 30 year old men, married 15 year old girls (and that was considered the most romantic that could ever happen to any 15 year) and years later, while mentioning the particular custom to a staff of mental health workers here inthe u.s.a--with some of them opining that that was "child sexual abuse"--i can only say, thank God that somewhere, some time, some long ago, or not that long ago, sex was understood as a thing that happens between two people.

[lostexpectation]

6. but that was abuse of power structure

surely, whether willingly or not?

[flordehinojos]

7. the girls' parents never thought so, the girls' didn't either, and

seemingly, neither did the groom. it is all in the cultural lense. i suppose.

[lostexpectation]

11. but its atypical patriachal society

15 yrs old marrying 30years old, maybe then but not now! Sisters :P

[flordehinojos]

13. not here. in other cultures definitely yes!

people do have different ways of looking at things...unless, of course, they are powere by the intransigent right wingers who are as dogmatic in their beliefs as dogmatic can be -- and as father houran used to say, the christian right usually gets it wrong.

[lostexpectation]

17. where you grow up

how do you mean not here?

[flordehinojos]

21. in a culture in which fifteen year old girls married thirty year old men

in beautiful weddings, with full approval of parental set.

[FreakinDJ]

29. I’ve seen it. Nothing wrong with it.

Practiced in many culture still to this day and surprisingly they have a much lower divorce rate and subsequently their children have a much lower juvenile criminality rate. Historically the aristocracy of Europe practiced May September marriages too.

It is only with the advent of feminism it has been attempted to be defined as a power imbalance.

And NO they are not all arraigned by the parents.

Before people get off on the high horse they should examine the divorce statistics of these marriages and the juvenile criminality rates of their children. They will be in for a big surprise as both of these rates run much lower in these types of marriages

[Lars39]

31. So the females are as well educated as the males?

Kinda doubt that.

[FreakinDJ]

35. They are both Electrical Engineers for NEC.

My next door neighbor is Indian and of an arraigned marriage as traditional in India. He looks 20 years her senior although I have never asked. They are both Electrical Engineers for NEC.

BTW: I was a bit surprised their daughter who was born here in America started dating at age 15. Her boyfriend is Anglo, I believe from their church (as I see them going to church together frequently), and they decided not to practice traditional Indian marriage customs of arraigned marriages with her.

So even thou they came from a very traditional society they yielded to the wishes and western traditions for their daughter.

It is a complex of issues, but to summarily condemn any thing that doesn’t fit into current western ideals doesn’t work well.

[izzie]

10. what comes first? The social workers or what is going on?

I think one has to make sure their job has a reason so they dream up sins to go after. I can recall my father saying, 'My God we used to do those things as kids and now they are putting kids in jail for it' and I thought he was crazy until I see the same thing going on to day. God help us, we used to have beer parties on the sand dunes and pile over 12 kids in one car to go to the movies, all would be really a problem to day while we just got yelled at. But now we have a health care worker to help these same kids and their families. It is hard to figure which comes first, The social worker or the sins they are finding. If I recall in many states 15 year old girls can or could get married so my guess is they can or could have sex if they wish.You can all start e-mailing me as I know I come from another age and always get hell on these things.

[lostexpectation]

12. it was wrong then too

If I recall in many states 15 year old girls can or could get married so my guess is they can or could have sex if they wish.

But surely that was about marrying a wealthy man because the women had little chance of surviving independently...

I still think people should be allowed have parties on the beach, but not pile 12 kids into a car!

[flordehinojos]

16. it was lots of fun piling 12 kids in a VOLKSWAGEN and going to a beach

campfire!

[flordehinojos]

15. i happen to stand with you. perhaps we are both from another age,

another planet, or just simply, another way of thinking.

[izzie]

34. I have always been pretty opened minded. I will say this

I would not want my 15 year old daughter to marry but some are ready to take on adult life at that age and in many other societies for sure. Our education takes so long now to live in this society, one is hardly ready at 21. We also can not judge our time and thinking into another age and thinking. You just can not judge say the Middle Age thinking with the 20th cen. and we do this over and over. Ones time is in a time and place and you just can not turn it over and say they are wrong because we now see it as wrong. One can always try to change things as we always have but you do live in one time in your life. We may be shocked to see 15 years old girls get married but one must recall is in ages past, that girl may only live to be 30. The death of children and in child birth was very great. You just need to put things in its time and place. That now we see 15 years old having sex as a crime is in our time. JUst what will your grandchildren think?

[SPKrazy]

23. 15 Year Olds Are Not Adults

and if adults are having sex with them, it is wrong.

All of this crap about "it used to be okay" reminds me of the arguments that it used to be okay to have slaves, it used to be okay to abuse your wife (in Arkansas it is still a law on the books I believe that one can beat their wife once a month)

Lots of things change as society becomes enlightened.

Social Workers don't make laws, nor do we dream up sins to go after.

Social Workers don't actually enforce laws, although DHS workers (social workers or not) may be the tools of enforcement in many cases.

I refer you to the National Association of Social Workers web site for some factual information on social workers.
http://www.naswdc.org/

Thanks

[izzie]

37. Once 15 years olds were adults.

Face it for most of history it was more than half a persons life once you made it to 15. I do not want to go back to those days any more than any one here does but it was life. It is Western Society that sees them to young for sex. Many 15 years old do not think they are to young for sex now. We are making laws on our values but I am not so sure than they will be the same when our grand children look at them for them self. What we hope for and want to do does not always turn out the same. How do you think we got these laws? People who had ideas pushed for them. These people worked with social issues. Two way street here.

[readmoreoften]

46. Your statistics are inaccurate and the issue is more complicated IMHO

The fact that the life expectancy has "gone up" is not much more than a lower rate of childhood death and stillbirth. The "average" age 100 years ago is skewed by this data. It is preposterous to say that people have died at around 30 throughout most of human history. There was just a really high infant mortality rate. Once you got over that hump, people lived to be about as old as they are now. Of course, we do have more folks surviving into their late 70s and 80s now because of medical technology. But folks weren't dropping off at 30-40.

That being said, I partially agree with what you're saying. Since we're talking about history, children throughout the ages have been treated as little adults. The 20th century brought about the cult of childhood and the American invention of "the teenager" and "teenage" culture. Society is becoming so specialized that the age of adulthood is getting pushed to points of absurdity.

First we had "18"
Then we had "21"
Now that college is a workforce imperative, one is not really considered an adult until about "22-23"
But, because of the fact that an overwhelming number of Americans are beginning to attend graduate school, even "23" isn't a stable age of adulthood anymore. There is a sense that you aren't a "real" adult until you are "out of school" and many adults don't finish school until 30, these days. Add to that, the economy pushing people (and whole families at times) back on the parental teat.

Some (mostly) anecdotal cases in point:

*The eurorail "youth pass" cut off is 26.
*I recently saw an ad for a theatre that had special discounts for "35 and under" (I shit you not.)
*There have been many arguments in the forums in the chronicle of higher education that debate whether professors who date undergradutes are "pedophiles". Mind you, not UNETHICAL, but PEDOPHILES. My feeling is that someone who sleeps with a 23 year old may be unethical, but is by no means a PEDOPHILE. It debases the word.

[izzie]

63. I am sure you are right about some people living very long

And that many died really early as children but I also think this must have done some thing to how the people lived. After all it must have been normal to think that you were an adult at 15 and time to marry and have children. Even boys were set off to work at young ages. This teen age thing and childhood is new to our age or was it the Victorians that started it? I for get.I recall my father was raised by his grandmother who was born in 1851 and he thought a lot different from my sister and I, And she was thought highly of as she had gone through high school. We knew her as children and she was an interesting lady.Even in the 1600's my family had people that lived to be in their 90's but this was said to be odd. As I have said, I would not want my 15 year old daughter to marry or have sex but I still find it had to put a man in jail if some girl has sex or marry, when the girl gives the OK. I tend to think that there are some 15 year old that do have the free will to do such things.I also think that the men are sort of crazy but??????? I am not even sure what the state laws are on this any more? Besides all that I do not think the body or mind of a 15 year old is ready to have children but they sure do.I think it is on a society like ours that find it so odd.

[Greyhound]

27. That makes three or us. If I were born into this police state of fear

that has become amerika, I would doubtlessly be a hardened career criminal because I would certainly have gone to jail for any number of things we did all the time as teenagers. So instead of becoming the fine specimen of slightly loony humanity you read before you, I would have gone through the system to find, upon my eventual release, that I had no opportunities beyond the dismal future of minimum wage servitude. I can assure you I would have gone into the more dangerous and much more profitable field of crime.
Through our own irrational fear, we are creating the instrument of our society's demise.

[Homer Wells]

55. This is probably one good reason we do not live extremely long Lives

A culture is in a constant state of evolution, over the long run, and as this culture changes, the older generations condemn and vilify the changes.

If those people of , say, 1865, could see our society, they would be horrified.

These people lived in an entirely different world from us, and our descendants may well look upon our values with amusement or disdain. Our ancestors existence was no better or worse than what we have now, merely different.

It is disingenuous of any to condemn another's society, whether in time or in different present-day cultures. As a casual student of anthropology (very casual):-) , I've read of cultures that I could not, in my wildest dreams, tolerate or thrive in, but it seemed to suit those within that society quite well.

I'm just saying, in order to honestly assess those different from us, we need to step outside of our own ethno-centrism, and see the world through their eyes.

Just my personal two-cents-worth.

:think: :shrug:


:hippie:

[Greyhound]

58. So you are saying that

we're evolving into a police state?

[Joe Fields]

48. I come from a different age also.

We live in a society today that is always looking for victims and someone or something to blame.

Believe me, fifteen year olds today are fully aware of sex. And if you think that most are still virgins, you are not living in the real world.

[Jade Fox]

24. "the most romantic thing that could happen to a 15 year old...."

That would be a 15-year-old with NO OTHER OPTIONS.

Having no options is not romantic.

[flordehinojos]

33. sorry. i'd have to say, 15 year olds WITH MANY OPTIONS

[Jade Fox]

44. Like what?

[Joe Fields]

49. What makes you say unequivocably that a 15 year old...

who wants to marry has no options? How can you be so sure?

[Jade Fox]

51. Simple common sense.

As an example, in this country those who marry very young come universally from poverty.

Besides, a girl who chooses to marry at 15 can only be romanticizing it, given she's far too young to have any idea what she is really getting into.

[Joe Fields]

52. Do you know this to be the case for every fifteen year old?

Or even half of them? I can't say I know for sure.

[Jade Fox]

61. I probably have an advantage....

having two sisters who were once 15 year old girls, many many friends who were once 15 year old girls, and having been once a 15 year old girl myself.

[flordehinojos]

53. these girls that i talk about were from the upper society with many

possibilities for educational (university) opportunities. they may have been romanticizing their relationships. those relationships happen to have worked out.

[lostexpectation]

57. marrying a rich man without living your own life is better then all that?

options?

[flordehinojos]

59. how do you know that marrying a rich man did not allow them to grow into

whoever they were? i beg to disagree.

[lostexpectation]

5. tis a bit dodge though ain't it

who truely wants their first sexually experience to be with some hargard old hoare?

[xchrom]

8. oh THIS is going to be interesting.

:popcorn:

[teryang]

14. Sex offenders can look forward to "civil death"

Megan's law and Lundsford law registration requirements, curfews, electronic monitoring, reporting requirements, travel restrictions and zoning limits on residency are creating an army of homeless destitute ex-convicts. Violations are automatic prison sentences regardless of the circumstances. Many attorneys and jurists agree that the laws are unreasonable.

The laws objectives are prophylactic, to prevent crime but sweep all kinds of crime and teenage sexcapades within their grasp. The laws are politically expedient and subsidize the prison for profit industry. Sex offenders are arrested on view after they leave jail, prison or the courthouse, because they are unable to provide an acceptable address.

[FreakinDJ]

19. Interesting

Criminalizing what once was almost considered the norm.

Carol Tavris summarizes, only somewhat satirically, a dogma of the "child sexual abuse industry": "Teenagers, whom we all know have no sexual feelings of any kind until they are 16 (at which time they magically become mature adults), are incapable of wishing to have sexual relations, so if they do have seuxal relations before age 16, said relations must be oppressive, traumatic, and coerced." (Carol Tavris, "The Uproar Over Sexual Abuse Research and it Findings," Society, May/June 2000, p. 15.)

If the legal ramifications were not so immense it would be laughable.

Has this person ever met a 13 year old boy or girl in her life?

[Jade Fox]

26. In our culture we don't allow teens to freely experiment with sex..

with each other, which would, I believe, be their natural inclination. In our culture sex "belongs" to adults. The real question is why an adult seeks sex with a mailable and vulnerable young person.

While it's not a given that a teenager having sex with someone much older will be damaging, if damage happens, it will happen to the teen who likely doesn't know how to set limits or gage their own desires in relation to the older persons.

[Nikia]

28. I think what makes teens vunerable is that they are still learning

Perhaps parenting and teaching styles are changing, but the way I was raised, only being 27, did not encourage children to assert themselves. We did the safety city thing and learned that inappropriate touching was wrong and such. In everything else though, we learned that we were supposed to obey our parents, teachers, and other respected adults who we knew. We learned that they knew better than us and that we were not equal to them.
As adults, to be successful and happy we learn to see most other adults as peers and that we have the same rights as them.
During the teen years, people presumingly make this transition. The law assumes that teens have made this transition by a certain age. Some make this transition earlier. Sadly, some never make this transition.
I know that there would be some problems with teaching a more comprehensive sex ed class at various ages, but it would helpful to students in their early teens in preventing unwanted sexual encounters with adults and other teens using coercion. It would also be helpful in discouraging rape culture mentality. I am not saying that it would present sex as bad but as something that should be done by equals with honesty and respect for both partners.

[Joe Fields]

50. What do you mean we don't allow it?

We can't stop it. Never have been able to. You mean to tell me you never played "doctor" when you were growing up? And that, by the time you were fifteen either did not have a sexual encounter with someone or didn't know a friend or friends who had? Where did you grow up?

[Jade Fox]

60. What I said was....

our culture doesn't FREELY ALLOW teens to experiment with sex. I did not say it doesn't happen. Obviously, it does.

And all of us knew not to get caught "playing doctor", or we'd be in trouble. That sends a clear message that what we were doing was considered wrong.

[IntravenousDemilo]

62. "...sex with a mailable and vulnerable young person"

What's the postage on kids today? By the way, careful packing in bubble-wrap should protect the more vulnerable ones from getting dented during shipping.

[Nikia]

25. The adult is wrong and some teens are traumatized

I have never seen a thread where the adolescent male victims of sexual abuse by their priests was laughed off as boys being boys and something that the boy obviously wanted to do. In some cases, the boy might have had a positive experience having sex with the priest. Many of these boys did feel traumatized and most sympathize with that.
Why are the male priest cases different than adolescent male victims of sexual abuse by female teachers or other women who are in a position of power or respect?
Isn't it possible that the teenage boy had sex in both cases because he thought that he was supposed to obey the offender or didn't want to let him/her down or didn't have the right to say no or didn't have the right to break off the "relationship" once it started.
Aren't many males who have sex with young girls often those who suffered sexual abuse? Perhaps if asked at the time of the event, they would say that they weren't traunmatized but perhaps the abuse did have a lasting impression.
I agree that not all cases are the same. Every boy is not the same and every situation is not the same. Some are not traumatized but some are. In every case, the adult is wrong though. In the case of teachers or priests, this sort of thing should always be punished.

[dsc]

32. What a total load of bullshit

Lastly, since women don't have penises, they can't rape men and boys in the pure sense of that word. Diana Trilling writes:"This fundamental distinction between the active and passive sexual roles is an irrefutable fact in nature -the most active sexual seduction or participation on the part of the woman cannot relieve the male partner of his primary responsibility in their sexual union. To put the matter at its crudest, the male can rape the female, the female cannot rape the male." (Quoted in Irving Howe, The Critical Point (New York: Dell Publishing, Paperback Edition, 1973), p. 226.) Also, males can rape men and boys, but females can't rape women and girls.

end of quote

Above is just one example of the utter bullshit that permiates this article. Have the authors never heard of raping someone with an object or fisting to name just two examples. How about using a gun to force the male to have sex, that would be rape would it not?

[Spider Jerusalem]

36. Um. Do you think YOU could keep it up and perform with a gun to your head?

If so, you're a better man than me, Gunga Din...

[dsc]

38. I take it you never heard of a fear hard on

[FreakinDJ]

41. Adult female pedophiles use drugs and alcohol to coerce

Adult female pedophiles use drugs and alcohol to coerce their male child victims

I think the true numbers of Statutory Rape are hidden by the fact society tell us the male child is supposed to go home and smile a while for her “gift”

Funny thing revealed in many of these case recently come to light is the adult woman lured and enticed the young boys with alcohol and even drugs in some cases. That perhaps is the scariest element of all.

[dsc]

42. I am sure these authors would somehow blame the boys

The poor women were forced to ply them with liquor.

[FreakinDJ]

43. The double standard

The double standard is much more than just disparate punishment.

The double standard is in definitions and perceptions.

A man can be charged with being a pedophile for merely touching a child. It need only be described as a touch in the wrong place. Even an innocent touch can be in the wrong place (when holding a child in a normal manner, when bounding a child on one's knee, etc.).

In order for a woman to be charged with being a pedophile, she has to virtually do a full sex act. No one would think twice about a woman merely touching a child. There is a huge difference in perceptions.

[dsc]

47. Yep

and God help the openly gay man who touches a male child.

[Kailassa]

54. It comes back to what has been said in other threads:

rape is not about sex.

Rape is an attack motivated by hatred or a wish to feel powerful. It's not about getting up a woman, it's about hurting a person sexually. Sometimes it's a woman hurting a man sexually, and there are many ways that can be done.

The situation for women after being raped can be terrible, I've been through that. But I've also seen that the situation afterwards for a raped man is far worse.