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I'm saying it straight out.... I believe Rove WILL BE INDICTED -------.>

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Justice Is Comin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-29-06 06:41 AM
Original message
I'm saying it straight out.... I believe Rove WILL BE INDICTED -------.>
I wasn't confident immediately after seeing only Libby being indicted. But when Patrick arranged immediately for another grand jury, that was my first sign. Now I'm more confident than ever. The subtly changing Luskin statements, the Rove demotion coinciding very remarkably with the conclusion of the Ryan trial. And most of all Rove's sudden change of arrogance. That was huge for me.

Now, I believe all along, that Fitzgerald was fully convinced and prepared to indict Rove when he filed the indictment against Libby. However there were two things that prevented him from preparing an official indictment at the same time of the announcement of the Libby indictment.

One, I contend Fitzgerald felt there was even more charges that could be brought against Rove and this grand jury was expiring. That was not negotiable, he was bound by legal requirement to terminate testimony in front of this grand jury, as it had run the statute of time it could be convened.

Also and simultaneously, he was at the crucial end stages of the Ryan trial. Unable to communicate further with this grand jury anyway, He left Washington to dedicate full time support and expertise to his prosecution team in Chicago. However, before he left, he made certain that he had made provisions to convene another grand jury and had them in place. This was a watershed event to me because there would have been no rush to do that since grand juries are operating in DC all the time. It signaled to me that he wanted immediate access to another grand jury as soon as the Ryan trial was concluded.

That's exactly what happened. Only two days after the verdict of guilty in Chicago, Fitzgerald is back in Washington and in front of his new jury. No delays, almost immediate. More than two years of witness testimony has to be read to this jury to bring them current and to show the disparities and conflicts and lies Rove has been caught in. Approximately only one week later, Rove is before this grand jury under oath.

This is not a prosecutor wavering or floundering or looking to developing evidence. This shows me he already has the evidence and is focused like a laser. He is going to nail Rove just like he did Ryan and Warner. This is a prosecutor on a mission!

I don't believe Luskin can say anything that will stop Rove from being indicted. And I think he has been told that in no uncertain terms already. If not in the form of a target letter, certainly verbally. Remember, shortly before the previous grand jury was to expire, the Rove email to Hadley had just "surfaced" from Rove. That email sealed his fate. Up until then testimony had to be parsed and sifted through to find the pattern of deceit.

But this email showed the importance Rove placed on the Wilson disruptions and his concern in the meeting with Cooper; something he claimed was only a casual meeting with Cooper and minimal discussion of Plame. This is the email he doesn't turn over for SEVEN MONTHS after Luskin has been alerted by Viveca Novak. And ten to one, Fitzgerald already had that email from Hadley and incriminating testimony from him under oath; just sitting back like a cobra in the grass watching Rove testify three times and make no mention of it.

Also, we now know he also had knowledge of the 250 emails that had been withheld when all emails had previously been requested and ordered to be produced. This I believe was a veritable treasure trove of Xmas presents. They have twisted up Rove ten ways to Sunday. And possibly even implicated Hadley. We can only imagine what was in those emails that Gonzalez was finally forced to turn over. But you can bet none of them were exculpatory in the least to help Rove.

There was not time to thoroughly vet these new incriminating pieces of evidence before the expiring grand jury. So Fitzgerald, already secure in his case against Libby prepared the indictment and made the announcement.

But now Fitz has no constraints. During the interim between the announcement of the Libby charges and the end of the Ryan trial, Fitzgerald had ample time to sort through and organize all of this evidence plus the evidence prior to the turnover of the emails to prepare multiple counts of lying to federal investigators and to the grand jury. I submit he has given a college education to this grand jury of the Rove lies and attempts to cover it up. The emails do not have to be cross examined. They are written record. They infirm the parties' intent.

I think this grand jury was overwhelmingly convinced by Fizgerald that indictment was appropriate. Knowing the manner and professionalism of Patrick Fitzgerald and his ability to convey complicated issues in simple to understand language , I believe they are prepared to give him a true bill of everything he is requesting.

It is pretty much the consensus of the experts that Rove was not subpoenaed by Fitzgerald to appear for the fifth time. That can only mean one thing; that Luskin had been told indictment was imminent and Rove begged to make his case yet again. Fitzgerald probably salivating at that opportunity to virtually fillet Rove before this grand jury welcomed him with a red carpet to the jury room.

From there the jurors took up the beating and it is my belief they grilled him up one side and down the other catching him in one contradiction after another. That is why you heard for the first time EVER that Rove himself is now worried that he may be indicted. When have you heard that before? It was always I'm absolutely confident I will be cleared. He knows he's screwed.

I contend the charges are being drawn up right now. That's why the announcement that it will be approximately a week before a "decision" is made was put out. The decision that is being made is how many counts are going to be in the indictment. Each occasion of lying to federal agents or the grand jury is a separate count. I suspect there were numerous statements that were false and are each being evaluated for their seriousness as a separate count. This is what I believe Patrick will be presenting to the grand jury in their next few meetings.

I believe he wants multiple counts and he will be very careful in drawing those counts. The indictment becomes the official record of charges alleged and specifics. These are subject to brutal defense lawyer examination for technicalities to be thrown out. Knowing Fitzgerald's track record and brilliance as a prosecutor, he will not make mistakes. I am betting this is the only thing left to be determined and a final draft bill of indictment will be signed by all in this grand jury.

And don't forget that mystery envelope that was paper clipped to the Libby indictment that none of the legal experts had ever seen. That envelope has something to do with what is happening right now. You can bet on it.

Be prepared to throw your hat in the air. And I don't think we have long to wait !!!!!!! :beer:
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rurallib Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-29-06 06:45 AM
Response to Original message
1. And then George W will get a chance to pardon him
because of national security! I am sure thay've got the speech written.
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rock Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-29-06 08:39 AM
Response to Reply #1
9. Yep. Rove in fact wrote it.
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madrchsod Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-29-06 09:09 AM
Response to Reply #1
10. bush cannot pardon until rove is convicted
the ryan case in illinois is a lesson on how fitzgerald works..he takes his time and whack the knees of the underlings until he gets to the boss. it took years to get everyone involved in the ryan criminal family and it may take several years to get the person fitzgerald wants in the whitehouse criminal family.
with libby`s trial up first and it seems he`s not cutting a deal,roves impending trial is at least another year away....unless he cuts a deal. of course this depends on the depth of the indictment the jury returns
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Lochloosa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-29-06 10:02 AM
Response to Reply #10
13. I disagree. Bush can pardon him at any time. Nixon was never indicted
of a crime and he was given a full and complete pardon for any crimes he MAY have committed.
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LaurenG Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-29-06 06:46 AM
Response to Original message
2. I know nothing, but I sense you are correct
however, it is one of my fondest wishes. I don't want to delude myself but I can certainly use the hope. Thanks!
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CrazyOrangeCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-29-06 06:47 AM
Response to Original message
3. Great analysis!
This is one prosecutor that will not be trifled with. He's brilliant, and Rove has jail time coming.
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Uben Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-29-06 06:49 AM
Response to Original message
4. You and about ten million other people
Who doesn't think he will be indicted
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rodeodance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-29-06 06:59 AM
Response to Original message
5. you say next few days. I thought I read he was analyzing it for about 10
days.
Are you saying he will speak to grand jury again?



......I contend the charges are being drawn up right now. That's why the announcement that it will be approximately a week before a "decision" is made was put out. The decision that is being made is how many counts are going to be in the indictment. Each occasion of lying to federal agents or the grand jury is a separate count. I suspect there were numerous statements that were false and are each being evaluated for their seriousness as a separate count. This is what I believe Patrick will be presenting to the grand jury in their next few meetings.
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Justice Is Comin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-29-06 07:15 AM
Response to Reply #5
6. Yes
I'm sure Fitzgerald would want the grand jury to be unanimously agreed to the charges and that's what I think they will be discussing at their next regular meetings.

Meeting next Wednesday and Friday would comprise approximately what would amount to ten days. Some reports were also, about a week.

Think about this in itself. Why would they make an announcement to announce that there would be no indictment. That wouldn't make sense. Not to me anyway.
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stop the bleeding Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-29-06 11:35 AM
Response to Reply #6
20. yep - well said again
Think about this in itself. Why would they make an announcement to announce that there would be no indictment. That wouldn't make sense. Not to me anyway
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tulsakatz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-29-06 09:43 AM
Response to Reply #5
12. I read a report at truthout yesterday
which said that Fitz has already written the indictments. He plans on presenting them to the GJ next week and they will vote on them at that time. If they do approve the indictments (and I'm sure they will), Fitz will announce it in another press conference.....probably next friday.
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malaise Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-29-06 07:26 AM
Response to Original message
7. So 'justice is coming'
:rofl: :rofl: :popcorn: :popcorn: I'm ready and waiting.
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ChairmanAgnostic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-29-06 07:32 AM
Response to Original message
8. Be still, my heart.
Yippee!
I am grabbing my hat right now.
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bluerum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-29-06 09:16 AM
Response to Original message
11. Dance a little dance for me,,,,,,
When does it come out that chimpy knew all about the political payback plan to discredit Wilson and his wife?

When does chimpy kick Rove out of the White House?

(Rhetorical questions - chimpy in chief is more likely to pardon Rove than fire him.)

:woohoo:
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Olney Blue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-29-06 11:57 AM
Response to Reply #11
23. If the decider told the truth, he would have kicked rove out already.
But I guess a brain is a terrible thing to lose......
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librechik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-29-06 10:06 AM
Response to Original message
14. the trial will be set for Nov 15 2008
no worries.


BTW, does anyone think this will cause Rove to resign from the GOP Political Machine? Or will we still have Mr Hacker to help count our votes for Congress?
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lonestarnot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-29-06 10:06 AM
Response to Original message
15. 10 days is a drop in the bucket!
Whooodamnwhoooooooooooo! Red Rover going down down down in that rang a fiiiiiiar.
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grasswire Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-29-06 10:12 AM
Response to Original message
16. here's my indicator
the "hotshots" on MSNBC were promoting the line Friday that Fitz is being "overzealous" in the manner of Ken Starr, and that no underlying crime was ever committed. They were all singing this tune. Talking points.
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pola Donating Member (272 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-29-06 10:59 AM
Response to Reply #16
17. I saw them, and Tucker Carlson was the WORST...
Luckily Joe Scarborough told him that he thought LYING to the grand jury WAS serious.
Carlson looked like a complete idiot.
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spanone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-29-06 11:01 AM
Response to Original message
18. I hope you're right....I just hope so.
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stop the bleeding Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-29-06 11:34 AM
Response to Original message
19. Nominated!
Well said and well thought out, bravo!

Let me join you:beer:
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Jack Rabbit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-29-06 11:46 AM
Response to Original message
21. K & R
I have the pleasure of being number 5.
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Me. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-29-06 11:55 AM
Response to Original message
22. Excellent
Was getting fed up with those "Rove won't be indicted" threads that suddenly sprung up, so I'll give this a kick and an R. I'm thinking within the next 2 weeks.

*shadow government*
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stevedeshazer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-29-06 12:15 PM
Response to Original message
24. I love your optimism, but I have fears too and a more pessimistic view.
I agree that Rove will be taken out. Turd Blossom really deserves it

My fear is that it won't matter.

Rove is Rove, but he's not Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld or Rice.

When there are indictments against the aforementioned, I'll be giddy. But as it stands today, Karl Rove is just another White House operative; they'll make him into a scapegoat.

Here's to optimism: :toast:
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Joe Chi Minh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-29-06 12:59 PM
Response to Reply #24
25. Presumably, there are matters for which he could not be
made a scapegoat.

On what basis are you assuming that there are not? A year ago, the idea of some underling "carrying the can" for Rove would perhaps have commended itself to you as realistic. Rove has not exactly been a fringe player for Bush and the Neocons.
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Festivito Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-29-06 01:16 PM
Response to Original message
26. Do they want this before or after November elections?
Have they all decided not to implicate Bush so they can get a pardon?
After the election, Bush might be implicated and Constitutionally restricted from pardoning those involved. Or, the state impeachment might do this.

I don't know. But, it's more fun being on our side now.
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caledesi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-29-06 03:46 PM
Response to Original message
27. JIC - excellent post. Very meaty. Is it a coincidence that *
is talking about prosecuting journalists? I think not. I think * is FURIOUS and knows Rove is going down.

What about this mysterious envelope clipped to the Libby indictment? Any more scoop on that?

Fitzmas is definitely coming. We must be patient because this is the big one!
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Justice Is Comin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-01-06 02:39 PM
Response to Original message
28. 'preciate the toasts, and k & r's
Edited on Mon May-01-06 03:01 PM by Justice Is Comin



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Catherine Vincent Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-01-06 09:29 PM
Response to Original message
29. Things are good.
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