I have a humble request and some questions for my friends at DU.

[kpete]

Why are we fighting one another when our goal is the same?

I have a humble request and some questions for my friends at DU.

Please have respect for those who are TRYING to get info out to all of us!

Is it just me, or has DU become a tad bit hostile lately?

Why the negativity?

Why pick on Truth Out or Raw Story or fellow DU'ers for not getting it 100% right?

The mainstream media gets it wrong EVERY DAY goddammit!!!

Thats is why MANY OF US are here at DU!

I wish the truth was easier to find - Believe me, I am searching like a mad woman for it.

This was one of my First Cut and pastes (Seems like SO long ago). It was posted shortly before Libby's indictment last October.
We were all going a bit pshyco trying to find out more information.
Steve Clemmons (A great Source) did not get it exactly right.

October 25, 2005
Indictments Coming Tomorrow; Targets Received Letters Today

An uber-insider source has just reported the following to TWN (since confirmed by another independent source):

1. 1-5 indictments are being issued. The source feels that it will be towards the higher end.
2. The targets of indictment have already received their letters.

3. The indictments will be sealed indictments and "filed" tomorrow.

4. A press conference is being scheduled for Thursday.

The shoe is dropping.

More soon.

-- Steve Clemons
http://www.thewashingtonnote.com/archives/001031.html.

My point is not all of us will get it right all of the time, but since that October of 2005, I have been on a mission to find and distribute as much information as possible to as many people as possible, including DU.

I am glad I made that post - not because it proved correct but because it got me involved.

Since last October, I have been posting EVERYTHING I can find which I feel can be useful - from Raw Story, Truthout, Think Progress, Atrios, TPM, TWN, on and on.

HUGE KUDOS AND RESPECT FOR THESE ORGANIZATION FOR WORKING THEIR BUTTS OFF TO TRY AND HELP US FIND THE TRUTH!!!

I am not a writer, actually, I am an Artist and truth seeker.

I try not too comment often, I leave that to the rest of you.

and
Just 37% of Americans now give the President their Approval, only 16% Strongly Approve. Even among Republicans, approval has tumbled and is currently measured at 66%. For most of his first term, Bush earned Approval Ratings in the high 80s from Republicans.
http://www.rasmussenreports.com/Bush_Job_Approval.htm

[Warpy]

1. Hey, sometimes we all get it wrong

especially if we're relying on an outside source rhat gets tt wrong.

I've been getting it wrong a lot lately because I've been going blind over the last 3 years and sometimes my misreadings are hilarious. Surgery is next month, though, so things should improve in another 3 months.

This board gets it right, iffy sources and all, far more often than the mainstream press does. We can certainly tolerate a few rumors that don't go anywhere.

The best policy with these investigations is to wait until the indictments are actually issued and THEN post the news. If you're posting a rumor, identify it as such.

Thanks for posting.

[TomInTib]

8. I was wondering what the heck was wrong with you.

Now I know.

It was more fun when I thought you were just krazy.

Warp on.

[anitar1]

26. Good luck with the surgery, Warpy. I always read your posts.

even if they are odd sometimes! LOL

[Ian David]

2. I openly admit that I am wrong 1/12 of the time

And sometimes, I even apologize.

But often I just say, "Why do you hate freedom?" and hope people realize that this is an admission that I've "lost" the debate and run out of valid arguments.

[H2O Man]

3. Nominated!

Two quotes:

"Intolerance betrays want of faith in one's cause." -- Gandhi

"Bitterness contaminates the vessel which contains it." -- Rubin Carter

[brook]

4. I, for one,

always read what you have to say and consider you a reliable presence at DU. I also don't post very much. DU is a source for me. I use it to inform my opinion - not to 'form' it. Thank you for what you do.

[pinto]

35. "I use it to inform my opinion - not to form it." - Well said. Thanks.

[Catherine Vincent]

5. Nominated, Kpete!

I hope you have a great vacation! :hi:

[Nickster]

6. Well spoken. Keep up your good work for all of us as well. K&R

[No DUplicitous DUpe]

11. Add my voice to what Nickster said. "Keep up your good work"

And thank you! K&R

[peacetalksforall]

7. Bravo! I support your position. n/t

[Fridays Child]

9. It's not just you. It has become hostile.

I've witnessed it and I've experienced it. I'm convinced that some posters come here simply looking to pick a fight.

I appreciate your post, kpete. I agree with you. It is about seeking the truth. And those who would claim to be right every single time, can't tell the truth about themselves, let alone find it elsewhere.

[hfojvt]

28. but that is not new, except that maybe we have way more posters

than in the past.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=105&topic_id=2294865


http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=105&topic_id=3467618

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=105&topic_id=3943551

[Festivito]

32. That's just '04 & 05. Hey, it does hone our skills!

More people, more complex. Just a problem to overcome.
It was hostile from the start, but, they were CONs.
I miss fighting those visiting CONs.
They were easy to identify.

Harder to identify if someone who sounds liberal is genuine or not.

I saw recent fights as badly reasoned, but, if they saw me as badly reasoned, who's to say?

Let's go fry our bigger fishes first.

[TomInTib]

10. Nominated. Thanks for everything.

Do you ever sleep?

[kpete]

14. I have not slept well since the 2000 election

[Tuesday_Morning]

12. Right on, Kpete

[KittyWampus]

13. Answering your rhetorical questions- SOME PEOPLE HAVE AXES TO GRIND

[Warren DeMontague]

79. Yeah, aint that the truth.

[DemReadingDU]

15. I appreciate the time you take to post articles

You always seem to locate information in a very speedy way. Everything changes so quickly in today's world, that's it's difficult to keep abreast of it all. Thanks for all you do!


edit to add: Vacation? You are going on vacation! Now? Just when Rove is to be indicted? Well, enjoy your time off, and hurry back!

[Haole Girl]

16. Is part of it Bush Fatigue? n/t

[sam sarrha]

30. i will never tire of keeping the word out about his insanity till i can

take a dump on his grave..

i am taking better care of myself, exercising and eating right and taking vitamins so i can out live that piece of shit ..to celebrate his burning in hell.

[Iowa]

43. I love it! Hilarious. I'm gonna start taking vitamins too.

[spuddonna]

48. Now that would make a great ad slogan...

"Taking My One-A-Day, So Someday I Can Shit On *'s Grave!"

lmao!! :evilgrin:

[RedEarth]

17. I certainly agree.... some people on DU just like to bitch..........

and frankly some people on DU are jerks...just like in the real world. It would be more pleasant if everyone could keep in mind that we are all trying to accomplish the same thing....get democrats elected.

[druidity33]

18. here, here!

or is it hear! hear!?

project in your mind's eye a positive outcome...

[UTUSN]

19. kpete, you're GREAT! A regular news service unto yourself. Thanks n/t

[Joe Chi Minh]

20. Such common sense, yet when it's articulated, it's like seeing

the speeded-up process of a gem in the rough being polished. The most critical would surely be those least apt at researching and understanding the news themselves.

[dogday]

21. First off, I thank you so very much

for all the informative articles you have found.. You have donated significantly to the discussion level at DU...:thumbsup:

Second, I agree with you about the tone her at DU, we all are on the same side.. :toast:

[bleever]

22. "Bitterness contaminates the vessel which contains it." -- Rubin Carter

Cited above by H2O Man, this bears repeating.

I'm with you, kpete. Thanks for all your hard work.


:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

[understandinglife]

89. Yes.

Thank you for repeating it.


Peace.

[vickitulsa]

108. I don't know who Rubin Carter is

but when I saw this quote, I wondered if Mr. Carter hadn't read Mark Twain and paraphrased one of his well known quotes:

"Anger is an acid that can do more harm to the vessel in which it is stored than to anything on which it is poured."

Or perhaps this whole idea is a bit of "common wisdom" that deep down inside we all know -- but we tend to forget and need to be reminded now and then!

I know that as a relative newby here at DU, I was nearly discouraged and -- I'll say it, hurt -- enough by some attacks on me when I got brave enough to start posting that I nearly left for good. And what a loss it would be (for me at least) if I had!

Even more daunting to me were some hostile arguments, even some flamefests, between other DUers in which I was not even involved.

I know we're all human and will have disagreements and at times be angered, even, by what someone else says. I guess what I'm trying to explain is that after reading a lot on this board before a first posted, I had come to expect a "higher level of discourse" here ... a standard above that of most message boards -- especially political ones!

Also, I've only begun threads myself two or three times and gave up on that because every time the thread was moved to another forum by the mods, and I didn't understand why. I figured I was doing something wrong so I stopped initiating threads. :)

I was in some groups for many years after I went online in 1997, and most of them were Vietnam vet groups, so I grew a thicker skin pretty fast and am not hypersensitive to critical remarks. However, the hostility I sometimes feel here at DU lately has disturbed me -- and even had me cowed into rarely posting for awhile -- until a couple of people here encouraged me to post more!

I guess I'll figure it all out eventually as I continue on here, but one thing I've decided for sure: I ain't leavin' this place! I love you people, even with your hairy warts! :applause:

And I am so thankful to those of you like kpete who find and post timely articles that help me keep abreast of the REAL news in this world! I remain aware that ANY source can be wrong; but I greatly respect those who do the work to at least try to bring accurate reports to the rest of us.

[hfojvt]

23. there has always been hostility and negativity here

but it is not the only thing here.

Rawstory is being attacked now, not for getting some scoop wrong, but because some people did not like the opinion presented in an editorial. To me the MSM gets it wrong every day too, not because they are trying to be the first with a scoop and so publish rumors, but because they publish the opinions of Republicans shills which are full of lies and they publish "news" that is barely disguised RNC spin points. They try to be too balanced, so when the Republicans commit mass murder they balance it with some Democratic jaywalking and say everybody's a criminal. They cannot seem to accept facts, so the fact that Republican tax cuts have mostly gone to the rich is not reported and when Republicans lie about that fact, that is not reported either.

Anyway, a certain amount of hostility to an opinion is not a bad thing. It is a way to refine an opinion if skeptics and scoffers can bring their own alternative POV and some more information to the debate. There has always been a certain amount of personal hostility on almost all issues where the responses will be something like "your opinion is disgusting, insane, absurd, ridiculously ignorant, not progressive, etc." Not copacetic, but unavoidable. We are passionate activists after all.

[Tigress DEM]

82. People need to be taught to VENT vs Attack though, I think.

It is so understandable when someone is upset about something because we live in some really crazy times right now and it's easy to take something personal and go all freakshow about it.

But it's one thing to be upset about something and another to rip apart another DUer because of it. THAT needs to stop IMHO.

There are rules about personal attack and if the general DU can't get with that they will have to be called on the carpet. I hate to say it because the mods are overworked and it seems like we should all be able to just get along. But if the hostility keeps gaining we need to turn people over to the mods until they quit the shit or if you have the desire and time maybe post the DU rules and highlight what they are messing up and suggest an alternative.

I get loud and passionate myself. Had some strings scrubbed and such. Mostly because I attracted the flames, not attacked anyone. But there are times that I just don't get what went wrong. What'd I do?

I try to ask people to play nice whenever I see stuff, and sometimes I get my ass handed to me, but eventually if we who really are the DU demand respect for everyone, then eventually it will happen. Had some good turn arounds and made some buddies.

[jasmeel]

24. Thanks kpete!!

[MelissaB]

25. .

Well said and done! The negativity and hostility here have been driving me nuts.
:applause:

[anitar1]

27. I think you do a good job, Kpete, keep it up. Thanks. n/t

[yellerpup]

29. You have credibility Kpete

I never hesitate to click on a headline when I see that you are the poster. Don't lose heart. We need your dedication, discretion, and humor now more than ever. :yourock:

[Uncle Roy]

31. When reasonable people reasonably differ, that's not a bad thing. But

lately some of the differing has been a little too over-the-top for my tastes. Trashing Jason Leopold, for instance, because some of his sources said one thing, and Karl Rove's lawyer said another. A sensible adult might say: "Well, we'll just wait and see who's right". A gambler, playing the odds, might say "Well, I've compared Leopold's track record for accuracy with Rove's track record for honesty, and I know where I'm putting my money." But only a certifiable lunatic (or some mole with an odd Rovian agenda) could possibly say: "See! That proves it! Leopold is a liar!!!"

A community like DU, with 80,000 citizens, will have its share of looneys. And these days, in this pathological political climate, a community like DU can also expect to have its share of moles and trolls.

I don't know what we can do about this. How do you distinguish a sincerely held but unpopular opinion from an issue that's being raised for its "wedginess" by some disruptor.

When in doubt, alert the mods. As our conservative friends like to remind us, "Eternal vigilance is the price of freedom".

[spuddonna]

33. The truth has enemies...

Any type of news source on the Internet that concentrates on real news - something the MSM stopped doing long ago - has many enemies.

:sarcasm: I'm sure that the corporate financed right-wing, with tons of money at stake on these puppet government officials would never start a campaign to discredit liberal sources, to instigate infighting. :7

That's the first thing I think of when I see one of these criminals indicted and the next day a post starts on 'how accurate the reporting is from so-and-so'...

Just my 2 cents...

[lala_rawraw]

36. soon journos will be sitting at gitmo

and those who want to attack others for agenda driven reasons won't have anyone to speak for them. it is all very sad:(

[kpete]

37. "soon journos will be sitting at gitmo"

Bush wants to prosecute reporters as spies (NYT)
In Leak Cases, New Pressure on Journalists

By ADAM LIPTAK
Published: April 30, 2006
Earlier administrations have fired and prosecuted government officials who provided classified information to the press. They have also tried to force reporters to identify their sources.

But the Bush administration is exploring a more radical measure to protect information it says is vital to national security: the criminal prosecution of reporters under the espionage laws.

Such an approach would signal a thorough revision of the informal rules of engagement that have governed the relationship between the press and the government for many decades. Leaking in Washington is commonplace and typically entails tolerable risks for government officials and, at worst, the possibility of subpoenas to journalists seeking the identities of sources.

But the Bush administration is putting pressure on the press as never before, and it is operating in a judicial climate that seems increasingly receptive to constraints on journalists.

more at:
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/04/30/washington/30leak.htm...
via:
http://americablog.blogspot.com/2006/04/bush-wants-to-p...

[lala_rawraw]

39. ah, that makes me feel better...

and who will protect my arse (even if it is lilly white)? lord, me thinks it is time to find a new profession.

[kpete]

41. No - LaLa

We need your "lilly white" arse -

and you KNOW it...

[lala_rawraw]

50. yes, i can tell from the 20 or so hit pieces on me

but thanks for having my back... we only have 5 journos left, we need to protect them.

[kpete]

53. You have alot of support here

Ignore those 20

they create black holes in one's heart...

[lala_rawraw]

59. I have no problem ignoring them, but they make

The environment here something that is not welcoming to journos and as a result, they are essentially asking us to leave, and doing it in the most ugly ways. And really, who wants to support an environment where lies and smears are being thrown at you, while you are attempting to communicate with people, get a sense of them and find stories that they want told? It makes my job difficult. I get this much vitriol from the right and the MSM lifts my work, and the government wants to make me a criminal. If the left cannot gather around me and insulate me so that I can do my job, then we are all going to lose. And while I really appreciate the support here, I don't know if it continues to serve the interest of this community and my own work for me to interact this much with readers, because it gives people the impression that they can address me as though they know me and attack me on personal levels, which is not very fair, since I don't hide who I am. As I have said, I have only posted here to be closer to readers and I have supported DU everywhre I go, pointing out specific writers and listing their achievements in columns that I write. We have hired from DU, we have helped writers from DU get work, we have provided a safehaven to those who need their story told, post it on DU and ask us to take it further. I have tried my best to be not only a journo of the left, but really, to be part of the community that I represent and inform others about the stories that people of this community want told. But frankly, I am really very tired and I don't have the energy to fight the far right noise machine, the MSM, and the Bush war on journos only to find that I have to defend myself from those who I attempt to represent in my work. It is not fair to me, to any of the journos who are under attack, and really, it is not fair to the real issues that are not being covered because a community is busy either attacking or defending its own. It may simply be that I have brought as much as I can to this particular community and that it is time for me to continue my work from a distance. I am thinking about this very seriously. But I do appreciate all of your support and so constantly that you leave me speachless. You are the reason and others like you are the reason that I do what I do, so I thank you for that.

[motocicleta]

69. I really appreciate your efforts, LaLa

but it's kinda like being a teacher - I think what you do and what teachers do is so important, but I am unwilling to do those things myself, so I will not cast stones at any who decide the algebra no longer makes sense. The problems of our world are too large for one person to take too much responsibility on themselves.
On the other hand, I think things are changing and you will not be the lone voice in a few more years if you can hang on ...

[kpete]

70. We need you now more than ever

Your hard work is finally paying off.

Hang in there.

"Things are good" (hat tip to H20 Man)

[WillyT]

109. Hey lala...

“First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win.”
Mahatma Gandhi

You, and all of us, are one step away.

Don't let ANYBODY HERE get ya down. We wouldn't be where we are without you, and shame on those here who don't realize that.

And... if ya want... I'll kick their kiesters for ya!

:loveya::evilgrin::loveya:

:hi:

[livvy]

99. Oh, hell yes!

lala, I visit Raw Story every day (frequently more than once). Kudos to you for all you do. You've definitely got my support. I agree with kpete, hang in there. As a teacher, I've learned to realize that I can't get through to every child, but the ones I'm successful with make a frequently thankless job worth the effort.



livvy

[NMDemDist2]

71. I have steered clear of the whole Rawstory debate

but I got your back too LaLa. You must be hitting a nerve so keep it up

Truthout is a good source, by and large, and nobody batts 1000 all the time

:applause:

[Uncle Roy]

44. Will they prosecute Judy Miller for revealing the "aluminum tube" info,

I wonder?

Things could be getting a little tense out there in Sag Harbor. Might need to start cocktail hour a little early if this sort of thing keeps up!

Ya think???

[spuddonna]

46. I'm not surprised at all... When do we get our loyalty oath papers?

Do you suppose if we're hauled off to Gitmo that we'll have to wear red 'D's for "Demorcratic Party Member" on our orange jumpsuits?

But I guess by that time, Gitmo will be called the GRC='Guantanamo Re-education Camp'... (sigh)

Oh well! Hope I can get a cell next to you guys! :puke:

[spuddonna]

45. It is very sad, and incredibly scary...

Just know that there are so many of us that do appreciate the work the free media does. It is an oppressive and threatening world right now for investigative journalists and anyone that speaks out against this administration. You guys are getting crap from all sides! :(

http://www.mediainfo.com/eandp/news/article_display.jsp?vnu_content_id=1002385925
snip
"He reveals that in responding to his query, Bill Keller, executive editor of The New York Times, charged that the Bush White House is on a campaign to intimidate the press. "I'm not sure journalists fully appreciate the threat confronting us," Keller wrote. "The Times in the eavesdropping case, the Post for its CIA prison stories, and everyone else who has tried to look behind the war on terror."

Keller added that "there's sometimes a vindictive tone in the way talk about dragging reporters before grand juries and in the hints that reporters who look too hard into the public's business risk being branded traitors." He warned that journalists possibly are "suffering a bit of subpoena fatigue. Maybe some people are a little intimidated by the way the White House plays the soft-on-terror card. Whatever the reason, I worry that we're not as worried as we should be."

The freedom of the press is so critical to a democratic society. I have nothing but respect for the people who are pushing to find the truths that this administration so desperately wants to hide.

[lala_rawraw]

60. That is why the left, the real left

Not the impostors who have infiltrated the left and are simply posing in order to disrupt and destroy, the real left has to fight on behalf of the free press. Without it, there is nothing else. Gather around your few remaining journos and news outlets and be the insulation, protect them so they can protect you. Otherwise, no point in calling for a democracy anymore in my op:(

thank you btw:)

[spuddonna]

107. Exactly!

And you are quite welcome! :)

[Warren DeMontague]

80. "Those who want to attack others for agenda driven reasons..."

You mean, like Melinda Barton?

[ArmchairMeme]

34. Living near an alcholic/addict

becomes a dismal place, void of hope that things will get better.

Here we have seen some quite signs of hope in some of the replies. It would be great to see that be a starting point for more good things.

I was imagining what the conversation would be like if I were to stop to talk to a drunk on the street. Would that person say, - I've got a wonderful life, everything is looking up. I'm here in the gutter again because of what I have done to myself. I earned this and I plan to do it again and again because it is such a wonderful way of life.

No, that person would lie to themselves about their life and how they got there and whose fault it was and they probably would not be happy about it nor be want to do it again.

Well we as community as a country have been living near an alcoholic/addict for several years now. We have listened to the lies again and again and seen the failures again and again. We have listened to the promises to go unfulfilled. Life has become a dismal repeat of lies and failures. A demoralizing place for those who hope for a better world.


It is up to us to build a community that supports a better way of life for all not just a few wealthy people of power. I particularly like the quote from Gandhi "Intolerance betrays want of faith in one's cause."

Sometimes DU offers great information and hope that this cause will prevail.

I'll hang in here.

[johnaries]

38. THANK YOU! Excellent post! K&R.

[KyndCulture]

40. You ROCK, kpete. I just had this conversation in an email.

Someone bought an anti war tshirt from me on ebay and I screwed up the order. I had to break it down to this woman who called me "an unorganzed skank" that I'm only human, working 2 regular jobs and trying desperately to get this message out to protect my teenage children from being slaughtered in some desert.

We are all only human and we ALL screw up occasionally.

[kpete]

42. Here's to "screwing up"

For the good fight!

Cheers and Peace...

[Taxloss]

47. Ask Raw Story. They attacked the left first.

Journalism is the reporting of fact. It can be the reporting of rumour, but not the reporting of rumour as fact. Raw Story repackages speculation as certainty. Slapdash yellow journalism like this does the left no favours.

[lala_rawraw]

51. do you understand that a column is not a news story?

[Taxloss]

54. Yes. But a column can be a news story. Ask Joseph Wilson.

Let's not forget Raw Story's shameless revisionism in this matter. And Raw Story went on the attack first. Don't blame us for responding.

[Name removed]

57. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Taxloss]

62. Riled, I see. That speaks volumes for your "credibility".

My real name is a matter of public record. It's William Peter Wiles, as I have said several times before on DU, "Lala". Follow the link in my profile and you can find an archive of some of my blogging - under my real name. I am also a proper journalist, one who writes for things printed on paper that people buy in order to read.

We have our own people looking into this ugly incident and Raw's retrospective editing of its attack piece. But then, it's not just the piece, is it? It's also the comments made by Avery Walker, which were silently changed under cover of darkness.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=263x17784

Also, before attacking the credibility of your opponents, remember that you have a vested economic interest in defending Raw Story and keeping the DU clickpennies rolling, so ask yourself this: who is more credible, the person paid to defend a position, or the person who isn't?

Anyway, "Lala", good luck with defending Raw Story. The standard tactic appears to be flinging around ill-informed insults and slander - something that is rapidly becoming a Raw Story trademark. Oh, and good luck finding those naughty malefactors who sent off the wrong version to about.com - because we both know who it was, don't we? And why about.com won't be apologising any time soon?

Tata, Lala.

[kpete]

64. Save your anger for the REAL enemy...

Anger is a good source for action.

I use it regularly,

I try not to direct it at people who are on my side.

Truth will be found when we look under EVERY rock - those that please us, and those that do not...

[lala_rawraw]

66. Good, then let us wait and see...

Since all you have provided is nothing but insults and distortions. If it turns out that Avery did something wrong, then I will ask that he resign myself, but until I see that to be the case, you have done nothing but smear us. And I am glad you are looking into this at your publication, because I am sure your publication will be writing a "proper" article on this matter, no? I hope About.com does retract, because if you have not seen the doctored screen captures yet, then you really should go look. I am not saying this in order to defend anyone. Everyone who knows me knows that it is the ethics of what About.com did that bothers, not that they attacked Raw Story, as I am not Raw Story and in general, I am used to being attacked by southern print "propers" like you. So no skin off my back. But if you are pointing to me and my work as dishonest, I suggest you you provide one example, just one, where one of my articles was inaccurate, dishonest, etc. Okay? Because while you are stating that I somehow engage in slander, it is you who in fact is and has been attacking me, never once pointing to anything I have actually written. Don't you find that odd?

[Tigress DEM]

84. I find it odd. Bully for the Truth - whatever it may be.

Witholding judgement, but I don't see what is the huge deal about an opinion piece any way.

Integrity I like, so I hope it all works out ok, but mistakes happen and like you said the best that can be done is to take care of them when they are found.

[lala_rawraw]

67. Check your PM before you consider posting more. Thanks

[Taxloss]

68. Done.

Let's discuss this in private.

[burythehatchet]

126. I must have very good judgment

because Ignored seems to get into verbal fights all the time.:)

[Warren DeMontague]

78. self delete

'cuz I think there's part of the story I'm missing.

But if we're still talking about the Melinda Barton piece, it was a clearly bigoted smear job and it deserves a sincere apology. End of story.

[Kurovski]

49. K&R!! (nt)

[Douglas Carpenter]

52. that's cool

:patriot:

[spanone]

55. ***Nominated***

n/t

[Swamp Rat]

56. peace

:grouphug:

[Spazito]

58. Well said and thanks for saying it!

Nominated.

[Raster]

61. Share the Love. Save the Planet. Death to tyrants.

[hwmnbn]

63. kpete, I'm with you all the way on this.........

It feels like we are near the goal, we can't be distracted now. All our focus should be on bringing down the chimp, not each other.

Whatever source "scoops" the news doesn't matter. I want to hear the good news. I know it's coming. Let's enjoy it together.

[BrklynLiberal]

65. Thank you kpete.

:hi:

[WilliamPitt]

72. A humble answer

Somehow, I managed to become central to a DU flameout that I have since completely missed. I headed up to New Hampshire to dog-sit for my mom, who went to South Carolina for a "We're all turning 60!" reunion gathering this weekend. I haven't bothered since then to check the web, because the internet connection here in the woods is dial-up and galactically slow. So I finally got around to checking in tonight, and lo & behold...

* One thread from a man I once considered an ally shitting on me, another truthout writer, and basically everything not oriented with pushing his film project;

* Several threads about Raw Story and atheists, which became my problem because I chose to support Raw for the five thousand good things they've done, rather than burn them down for one ill-advised article;

* Several threads about all this together.

To answer your question, kpete, about why there is so much fighting, I can give you the perspective of someone who has been here since May of 2001. That perspective is pretty straightforward: most of the people who post here agree with you completely. Those that don't - people whose professional jealousy overwhelms their good sense, people whose single-issue monomania denies the viability of even a nanoblip of disagreement, people who get phony-tough behind a fake name and a keyboard, and people who are here to do nothing more than tear up the process - will always make this place disagreeable. This place will never, ever, ever live up to its potential because of this, and that is sad.

Before too much time passes, there is going to be a decent crowd of people on this forum who will owe Jason Leopold an apology. I'll bet you all the money in my wallet they won't offer one, but there it is. For myself, I apologize to anyone who felt that my support for Raw Story equalled support for a column that unnecessarily (and incoherently) attacked a group of good people. That was not my intention, and in retrospect, I should have made that clear from the jump. I wanted to help Larissa, because I believe she deserves that help and respect, and inadvertantly made things worse. That was my failure, and I am sorry for it.

This is a good thread, kpete, and well-meaning in every sense. But I have been here too long and seen too much shit (and, to be fair, caused too much of my own shit) to believe this place can or will ever rise to the level of integrity that people like you bring to it every day. The same reasons why this place will never reach its potential are the same reasons why the Left spends so much time on the outside looking in politically. You would think we wouldn't have to learn the same hard lessons over and over again, but you'd be wrong.

It has been said by many long-time posters that the healthiest thing one can do from time to time is take a break from this place. I seldom do, and when I have tried in the past, I always get sucked back in. But I think the time has come for a real one. I have too much to deal with in my personal life, too many pages to edit for my next book, too many real enemies in the Bush administration and congress to fight, and too many good Democrats to help get elected in '06, to spend my energy here fighting people that - in any sane, stable community - would be natural allies.

In other words, I have better things to do with my time. Guess what, kpete: you and everyone who agrees with you also have better things to do with your time. If there are people here who want to turn this forum into a boneyard for jackals and phony-tough flame-warriors, you should let them. You can't stop it, no matter how hard you try, and your skills and passion are far better served in a place where you don't have to ask people on the same side to stop tearing each other apart.

See ya on the flip-side.

[Name removed]

73. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Hissyspit]

74. Sometimes a break, sometimes ignore - but then there's liveoaktx

Sometimes a break is needed, sometimes you just need to ignore comments and not post. I get mad about posts all the time and then take a breath and back off and generally forget about it. On the other hand, overall I would disagree with your negative assessments, Will, but then there is the liveoaktx debacle, the ridiculous way she was treated in the name of "constructive criticism" - the worst "cut-your-nose-off-to-spite-your-face" behavior I've seen since I started posting here.

The truth of the matter is that this place FOR THE MOST PART gets it right, and that's the most important thing.

Don't be gone too long.

[rucky]

93. 3 DU Reporters down in about a week!

that's a big Mission Accomplished to the trolls! :puke:

it's not just the people publishing, btw. it's everybody who sticks their necks out.

[kpete]

75. This almost made me cry:

"This place will never, ever, ever live up to its potential because of this, and that is sad."

William Pitt - I cannot accept this.

Please, please give me some hope.

Don't we need you, Larisa, Leopold and each other now more than ever?

The light at the end of the tunnel is in view.

I can see it...

[Wrinkle_In_Time]

86. Setting aside your mother, her dog, time and bandwidth...

...

* Several threads about Raw Story and atheists, which became my problem because I chose to support Raw for the five thousand good things they've done, rather than burn them down for one ill-advised article;

The post you refer to was solely in support of the enumerable "good things they've done" and didn't really comment much on how "ill-advised" their article was nor how they handled the response to it. Thank you for clarifying what you meant when you said in this post:

For myself, I apologize to anyone who felt that my support for Raw Story equalled support for a column that unnecessarily (and incoherently) attacked a group of good people. That was not my intention, and in retrospect, I should have made that clear from the jump. I wanted to help Larissa, because I believe she deserves that help and respect, and inadvertantly made things worse. That was my failure, and I am sorry for it.

That was big of you. Unfortunately, that didn't come thought in the original thread. Your opinion as a writer and editor carries a lot of weight here. You know that full well and you trade off it. Please don't be surprised if people read your original post as unqualified support for all that Raw Story does.

To answer your question, kpete, about why there is so much fighting, I can give you the perspective of someone who has been here since May of 2001. That perspective is pretty straightforward: most of the people who post here agree with you completely. Those that don't - people whose professional jealousy overwhelms their good sense, people whose single-issue monomania denies the viability of even a nanoblip of disagreement, people who get phony-tough behind a fake name and a keyboard, and people who are here to do nothing more than tear up the process - will always make this place disagreeable. This place will never, ever, ever live up to its potential because of this, and that is sad.

Ah, now here is where we probably have to part ways irrevocably, not that means much to either of us. This statement smacks of elitist bollocks, viz:

"most of the people who post here agree with you completely"

Let's see the responses first, but sadly, that's probably true. Please also refer to the number of people who recently signed an anti-Iranian petition that is most likely nothing more that U.S. Government propaganda a la Iraqi incubator babies and Pvt. Jessica Lynch.

"those that don't - people whose professional jealousy overwhelms their good sense, people whose single-issue monomania denies the viability of even a nanoblip of disagreement, people who get phony-tough behind a fake name and a keyboard, and people who are here to do nothing more than tear up the process - will always make this place disagreeable."

Speaking for myself, I don't have "professional jealousy" nor "single-issue monomania", just amateur skepticism on all issues and all sources. I consider my approach to be "good sense" and find that it regularly overwhelms other peoples' hubris. "Nano-blips" are smoothed out by the liberal application of alcohol, time and exposure to other humans. Apropos "phony-tough behind a fake name and a keyboard", just because you chose to use your real name as a forum nickname doesn't make you better than the rest of us. You trade off your real name. I don't.

/EDIT: replaced "common sense" with "good sense" to more accurately reflect the quote.

[tavalon]

87. Aw, Hell's bells

I guess this is as good a time as any, being that my cross country move is coming up in just a month and then I need to get replugged in with the grassroots folk up Seattle way, but damn, I hate when Will Pitt takes a break from this place.

[Gman]

116. Again?

[Der Blaue Engel]

117. Let the jackals win?????

"If there are people here who want to turn this forum into a boneyard for jackals and phony-tough flame-warriors, you should let them."

Let them?!?!? Why? Why the hell should we let the dividers destroy DU just in time for 2006 elections? Do people really think this is a coincidence?

Liberal news sources are being driven from DU and everyone is acting like it's business as usual.

The jackals must be thrilled that they're being so successful.

:mad: :grr:

[Vincardog]

118. William Ignore is your friend. Thanks for posting

[soleft]

120. Since when do conflicts and confrontations = not living up to potential

If you ask me DU has met and exceeded it's potential.

This is an internet discussion forum. There will be flames and drama and problems as long is it exists.

These threads are as cyclical as spring.

[xultar]

121. I love it. Burning our own we do to each other better than anyone esle.

:woohoo:

[MelissaB]

122. Ya know...people like me sit by and don't get sucked into

the (mostly) stupid flame wars. Maybe it's time we spoke up. I've read shit here lately that I just can't believe. These people are crazy or have an agenda or both. Keep up the good work, Will. We need you here.

Melissa (who usually only reads flame wars and gets mad without posting)

[The Wielding Truth]

127. oops

posted wrong place sorry

[lonestarnot]

129. Damn not you too William Pitt! I will miss you.

[troubleinwinter]

130. Pfffft. Go ahead and hold yer breath til ya turn blue. I expected more.

[Pharaoh]

132. Will

There has not only been a lot of anger and pettiness on DU lately but this is just a symptom of what is going on over the whole planet right now.

If you look back at human history it is just one war and atrocity after another, we've had a good long period of relative peace and prosperity since WWII...........but I'm afraid those dogs of War have been unleashed once again and the bitterness and insults fly, the people who fling these insults are largely unconscious or at the very least temporarily insane,
Yes we are all getting a bit insane living in this insane world.

Forgive them, ignore them and move on,
They are insane from the world , we will always have them with us , but we have work to do,

Keep the faith brother, things will get very very bad in the coming months and years, but let us with cool calm heads, prevail and lead the way out of insanity...............NGU

[bonito]

76. Kpete, your a Gem!

Thanks for all your work!:yourock:

[lostexpectation]

77. we can't trust "sources" anymore from anybody thats why

...

[lostexpectation]

81. We don't have time to read 50 scoops on the same things from "sources"...

!

[Wrinkle_In_Time]

83. Your request is not humble at all...

... it is at least passive-aggressive, quite vain and possibly approaching dissembling.

I refuse to accept what anyone says is "info" without proof or corroboration. I will not blindly accept an assertion made by someone flying under the flag of "a Democrat", "a liberal", "on our side" or a "DUer" (and especially not with bolded text, caps, the prefix "uber-" and many exclamation points) without proof or corroboration. I hold all media and individuals to the same standards. If your mission really is "to find and distribute as much information as possible to as many people as possible, including DU" then please make sure it really is information and not just the latest thing to appear on one of the sites you listed. They could be wrong. People may challenge them. I think this is a good thing.

In specific response to your post: you are not humble and I am not your friend. I have no respect for people who are "TRYING", only those who do. If someone doesn't get it 100% right, then they should admit it, apologize and pledge to do better. They should also accept criticism of their work, regardless of their political colours. I am not a "writer", nor an "Artist", nor a "truth seeker" (whatever that is). I am obviously a skeptic and I will comment as often or as little as I like on DU, without your approval, until such time as the DU moderators determine otherwise.

[kpete]

102. Challenge all you want...

I am not asking for any cheers here, only civility.

I do not seek your approval.

You have every right to question my posts.

I find some of them questionable as well.

I agree with you - "They could be wrong. People may challenge them. I think this is a good thing."

[Media_Lies_Daily]

85. Thank you for all that you do! To heck with the naysayers!

[tomreedtoon]

88. Why are we fighting each other? There are two camps here.

This is kind of a broad speculation, but bear with me.

One camp is people who are associated with the traditional Democratic Party, who want to promote one traditional candidate or another - people who are pretty satisfied with the status quo.

The other camp thinks the Democrats have failed for the last several elections, and believe that the Democrats must show courage and demand serious change - or that they'll never show courage, and some other party has to take up the progressive banner.

This split has been traditional sincd 1968, the first time within my lifetime when there was an open wound (Vietnam) in the Party. This year it's particularly bad again, but there is no external cause. It's the continued failure of Democrats, not only not to stand for any causes, but their simple failure at the polls.

One side says "Don't worry, be happy." The other says "The woods are burning - do something, damn it!"

Pretty intractable difference, don'cha think? And nobody - not the supposedly "electable" candidates, not the incendiaries - are addressing it inside the Party. Only here.

[hvn_nbr_2]

90. The mainstream media gets it wrong EVERY DAY goddammit!!!

Well, that certainly puts things in perspective, regarding the recent wars over raw story and truth out.

You might well have said "The mainstream media deliberately gets it wrong EVERY DAY goddammit!!! In fact, they absolutely refuse to get it right."

[leveymg]

91. kpete, you are one of those fabulous people around here

When someone writes the story of DU, you'll have a starring role of Mercury, the bringer of news.

No one should be faulted for not being 100 percent infallible. None of us are really gods. You're just a really nice, dedicated person. What an honor to work with you.

[nolabels]

92. Anybody that has a purist bent Is asking for trouble being here at D.U.

Posting things that might be false or misleading shouldn't be such a big deal. We, the mas of readers at D.U. often deliver (or forecast) the real news long before it's ever written by some backwashed rag. The truth can be a very subjective thing and we all don't think alike. I am glad there is place D.U., many would be lost without it. Rise above the acrimony and try to see the big picture.
Thanks for posting everything you post Kpete and everybody else too

[jarab]

98. Sorry, but "Truth" is not subjective. eom

...O...

[nolabels]

101. "Conformity of fact or actuality" is by definition subjective by majority

This even happens to be a cornerstone built into many laws or even the Bill of Rights. The magician and the fraud is dependent on the belief of truth. Facts and the lot are dependent on our senses but also the opinions of many. Many things today would not be (good or bad) if everything was done by the consensus of the majority. Your truth is not my truth and or maybe not my neighbors truth. If the truth we have collectively was came upon by ignorance or contempt and doesn't work then we call it opinion in its many shades of gray.

[jarab]

112. Having not read many of the books which would

confuse the senses - and avoiding games of intellectual honesty, I concluded for myself long ago that there are many ways to tell a lie, bullshit, exaggerate, etc - but there is but one truth of any particular matter.
We may never have all the facts to ascertain the truth of a particular subject, but if we could hypothetically have all the evidence ... one truth would be the result. All else would be something other.
A hypothesis is not truth; neither is a theory. But, if there are several varying explanations of a particular incident, only ONE can be the truth - and perhaps the truth doesn't lie in any of the stories.
Actually, the latter is usually the case.
jmo
...O...

[nolabels]

113. But deciding what truth is an exercise in the subjective

Honesty and truth are not synonymous. The world is not flat no matter how much people in earlier ages believed it was. Here is a snip of great read that seems to connect in a lot of places

Truth or Lies

Laura Knight-Jadczyk
(snip)
Just as certain mechanical aids can augment the perception of certain ranges of light such as infra-red, ultra-violet, x-rays, and radio waves, so might our so-called psychic perceptions be similarly augmented. This was my theory at the beginning of the Cassiopaean Experiment though I never thought it would evolve into a dialogue with "myself in the future."

The brain is an instrument devised to focus reality in mathematical constructs -- interpreting waveforms as material objects. What I had in mind from the beginning was a process of not only being able to perceive those ranges of energies that are normally beyond the range of 3 dimensional perception, but to be able to do so in a repeatable way with practical applications. By developing such a process, the implication is that we can not only perceive the effects of myriads of waveforms, but also, depending upon the amplitudes and energies, predict the outcomes of certain motions, even, perhaps, in very precise terms.

Of course, it seems that the descriptions of the greater reality beyond 3 dimensional space and time must be, in an essential way, difficult to describe except metaphorically. So, I think we can assume that the finite nature of our minds is self-limiting in a certain sense. It seems that all the instruments we can create and build are probably incapable of penetrating into such realms because of the simple fact that they are three-dimensional. The only material way we may be able to go beyond our reality is through mathematics, which seems to transcend time and space.

There is, indeed, a lot of research in physics that sounds provocatively like ancient mystical teachings yet the possibility is that the true nature of the reality behind our world is beyond quantum mechanics and theory.
(snip)
http://www.cassiopaea.org/cass/truth_or_lies.htm

[QC]

94. Here's the reason for the hostility--hold down your bonnet, Sister!

Some people here believe that politics is about taking practical action in the world in which we actually live to make people's lives better.

Other people treat politics as a religion substitute, and thus approach the Democratic Party in much the same way that Jerry Falwell approaches the Southern Baptist Convention.

I could elaborate, but I think that is enough.

[KitchenWitch]

95. A third option

Some people feel so small and insignificant in real life that they come to message boards and bully everyone.

[QC]

96. Yeah, that's definitely the case as well. n/t

[switchman]

97. great point.

...dems are often guilty of being just as uncivil as the right

[Mutley]

100. I am of the opinion

that good civil discussion between people who disagree is a good thing for everyone. But the pissing matches just hurt those arguing, reading, and DU as a whole.

[Laurab]

103. Thanks, Kpete - well said

and no, it's not just you. It's become very hostile, and sometimes downright unpleasant here. To see threads attacking people who are trying to get information out to us, quickly make it to the "greatest" page is a little disconcerting.

From what I can tell, it's a vocal minority, what I can't figure out is the motivation. I miss liveoaktx, I HOPE Will Pitt doesn't take a break, I'm happy to see Larissa still posting, despite the best efforts of these people. It makes no sense to me - there are so many repukes to fight, yet people choose to eat their own instead.

I have been trying to ignore the threads, although sometimes it's difficult. I hope people don't leave, and instead, just ignore the bullshit, and continue on with the things that are important. After reading this thread, I'm not all that optimistic.

[kpete]

104. "ignore the bullshit"

Great advice and thanks Laurab!

[WillyT]

105. Bravo kpete... Bra - Fucking - Vo !!! - K & R !!!

I get soooooo tired of hyper critical 'inside baseball' minutia here.

DU, BartCop, RawStory, BradBlog, FireDogLake, DailyKOS, and many other sites, and the people who read them and take action, are THE ONLY REASON this "Permanent Republican Majority" is falling like a house of cards in a tornado.

WE, the collective WE, did this. I wasn't here on day one with Skinner and his crew, but I got on soon after, have become far more vocal and far more involved. As have friends and family members I've turned onto the blog-o-sphere of the left.

The MSM with all its supposed 'journalistic integrity' :puke: has failed this country miserably. And yet, we've picked up the banner, and have moved the country. We still have a lot of work to do, and I don't like time being wasted on nit-pickin distractions. We cannot afford them right now.

So kpete... :loveya::yourock::loveya:

Let's get those traitorous rePuke bastards out of office, and we can have our DU mud wrestling championships after January of 09. When we've saved the country, and quite possibly the planet!

:kick::hi::kick:

[kpete]

106. Saving the country

And the planet
Consider me on board!

[robertpaulsen]

110. I regret posting to late to recommend, but I nominate this in spirit.

Bravo to you kpete, for your eloquence and courage. Your pleas for peace and civility have not fallen on deaf ears. You have infinite support from this poster.

Keep up the great work!

:applause::applause::applause::applause::applause::applause::applause::applause::applause::applause::applause:

[leveymg]

119. Second that, Kpete, you're an institution.

Some people around here belong in one, but you've done wonderful work trying to herd cats and keep us on topic.

Thanks for focusing on what's really important.

Will - you'll be back. You have to. Please.

- Mark

[stop the bleeding]

123. Yep, me three on that

also many thanks and kudos to you two and the many, many, many other DU'ers who work their butts off on fighting the war of disinformation.

No wonder the Rethuglicans are winning - we dstroy ourselves from the inside out.

[Rex]

111. Humans have massive flaws, not close to perfect(well I'm close).

To seek order on a public forum is like cleaning a shark's teeth with a toothbrush. Prepare to die from a thousand little paper cuts! :evilgrin:

[lonestarnot]

114. turdy and dick makes 2 ... 32% Put dat in yer pipe and smoke it! Hmmmf

;)

[Blue_Tires]

115. evidently there is a lot of stuff going on

WAY above my head, because outside of the rawstory piece, i have NO idea what people are bickering about internally

[Joanne98]

124. If we didn't fight, we would not be the Democrats.......

[kpete]

125. I am all for fighting

but Will Pitt is right - we need to work together and stop fighting wtih each other!

That is the only way we reach our full potential at DU.

[livvy]

128. We have enough to fight about with....

our "enemy" squatting in our White House with his cronies sleazing around doing damage to everything they touch. It is one thing to hold differing opinions, but to squabble, insult, and become defensive and combative with each other is not productive. No one likes to be attacked. There may be some who frequent DU that might have some really great ideas, but hesitate to express them for fear of being belittled or flamed. We do need to stick together and work out our differences in mature and thoughtful ways.
Thanks for the post, kpete.

[donheld]

131. They're called "Wedge Issues" for a reason

They are trying to get us to fight each other so they can ruin our nation while we fight.