Sure we speak the official 'English', but what is the American language?

[bigtree]

"There she lies, the great Melting-Pot--Listen! Can't you hear the roaring and the bubbling?...Ah, what a stirring and a seething! Celt and Latin, Slav and Teuton, Greek and Syrian, black and yellow...Jew and Gentile....East and West, and North and South, the palm and the pine, the pole and the equator, the crescent and the cross--how the great Alchemist melts and fuses them with his purifying flame! Here shall they all unite to build the Republic of Man and the Kingdom of God." -Israel Zangwill 1908”


I'm clucking my tounge, at a distance, at the uproar over the national anthem sung in Spanish. That's about it. It's just a song, an old song. I'd think we'd want folks to sing it; no matter that it comes out a bit altered by interpretations, inflections, and translations. I still remember my elementary school class singing both the French and English versions of France's national anthem for the French ambassador at the French embassy. We thought it honored them, maybe not . . .

It's amazing to me how the inhabitants of this land we call America- a country obtained and founded through force and deception by an immigrant anglo-saxon race of misogynistic thugs- can assert their Americanism and detach themselves from the global influences that were essential, critical elements in the establishment of our nation and in the sustaining the people who settled here. The Europeans were immigrants to this land. The original inhabitants comprised a vast nation of many languages and many different cultures that existed together for centuries on this land we call America . . .

There is no reasonable argument that would justify the systematic removal of those indigenous peoples from the land that had sustained generations. There is no reasonable argument for the destruction of their culture and the forced imposition of the settler's language and ideology. In the 'indian' schools the children were forbidden to speak their own language or display any of their own culture and were severely punished for doing so. The government even went so far as to outlaw indigenous language and culture in its institutions.


ENGLISH: a language of United Kingdom


Population: 55,000,000 first language speakers in United Kingdom (1984 estimate). Population total all countries 341,000,000 first language speakers (1999 WA), 508,000,000 including second language speakers (1999 WA).

Also spoken in 104 other countries including American Samoa, Andorra, Anguilla, Antigua and Barbuda, Aruba, Australia, Bahamas, Barbados, Belize, Bermuda, Botswana, British Indian Ocean Territory, British Virgin Islands, Brunei, Cameroon, Canada, Cayman Islands, Cook Islands, Denmark.

Dialects COCKNEY, SCOUSE, GEORDIE, WEST COUNTRY, EAST ANGLIA, BIRMINGHAM (BRUMMY, BRUMMIE), SOUTH WALES, EDINBURGH, BELFAST, CORNWALL, CUMBERLAND, CENTRAL CUMBERLAND, DEVONSHIRE, EAST DEVONSHIRE, DORSET, DURHAM, BOLTON LANCASHIRE, NORTH LANCASHIRE, RADCLIFFE LANCASHIRE, NORTHUMBERLAND, NORFOLK, NEWCASTLE NORTHUMBERLAND, TYNESIDE NORTHUMBERLAND, LOWLAND SCOTTISH, SOMERSET, SUSSEX, WESTMORLAND, NORTH WILTSHIRE, CRAVEN YORKSHIRE, NORTH YORKSHIRE, SHEFFIELD YORKSHIRE, WEST YORKSHIRE.

Classification Indo-European, Germanic, West, English.

How Many Languages?

Language scholars believe that prior to the arrival of Columbus, approximately 300 languages were spoken in North America; since then, the number of indigenous languages has dropped considerably. Figures on current language use vary (Crystal, 1987; Krauss, 1998; Grimes, 1997) but indicate that roughly half of these languages are now extinct.<1> Many of the remaining languages are considered moribund, or near extinction, as they have few speakers and these speakers are all elders. Some projections suggest that by the year 2050, only twenty indigenous American languages will remain (Crawford, 1999).

How Many Speakers?

The earliest broad survey of language speakers was in 1964 (Krauss, 1998); other inventories followed, including SIL International's Ethnologue. According to data provided in Ethnologue, there are over 361,978 speakers of indigenous American languages. It is difficult, however, to determine a precise census since census respondents may find language definitions confusing, may deny their language ability (because of a perceived prejudice or stigma), or may overestimate their language ability (Krauss, 1998).

How many indigineous languages are spoken in the United States?

20 Abnaki-Penobscot Maine <3> 10 Achumawi California 21 Ahtena Alaska 256 Alabama Texas 90 Aleut Alaska 812 Apache, Jicarilla New Mexico 18 Apache, Kiowa Oklahoma 10 Apache, Lipan New Mexico 1,800 Apache, Mescalero-Chiricahua New Mexico 12,693 Apache, Western Arizona 1,038 Arapaho Wyoming; Oklahoma 90 Arikara North Dakota 150 Assiniboine Montana <3> 4 Atsugewi California 1,062 Blackfoot Montana <5> 141 Caddo Oklahoma 35 Cahuilla California 5 Chehalis, Lower Washington 2 Chehalis, Upper Washington 11,905 Cherokee Oklahoma; North Carolina 5 Chetco Oregon 1,721 Cheyenne Montana 1,000 Chickasaw Oklahoma 17 Chinook Wawa Oregon 17,890 Choctaw Oklahoma 5 Clallam Washington 321 Cocopa Arizona <6> 40 Coeur D'Alene Idaho 39 Columbia-Wenatchi Washington 854 Comanche Oklahoma 1 Coos Oregon 2 Cowlitz Washington 1,070 Cree, Western Montana <5> 4,280 Crow Montana 9 Cupeno California 20,355 Dakota Nebraska; Minnesota; North Dakota; South Dakota; Montana <3> 40 Degexit'an Alaska 1 Eyak Alaska 10 Gros Ventre Montana 365 Gwich'in Alaska 138 Haida Alaska 7 Han Alaska 1,007 Havasupai-Walapai-Yavapai Arizona 1,000 Hawaiian Hawaii 100 Hidatsa North Dakota 250 Hocak/Winnebago Nebraska 12 Holikachuk Alaska 5,264 Hopi Arizona; Utah; New Mexico 8 Hupa California 3,500 Inuktitut, North Alaskan Alaska 4,000 Inuktitut, Northwest Alaska Alaska 1,301 Jemez New Mexico 1 Kalapuya Oregon 200 Kalispel-Pend Dóreille Montana 19 Kansa Oklahoma 126 Karok California 50 Kashaya California 10 Kato California 10 Kawaiisu California 4,580 Keres, Eastern New Mexico 3,390 Keres, Western New Mexico 539 Kikapoo Kansas; Oklahoma; Texas <7> 1,092 Kiowa Oklahoma 88 Klamath-Modoc Oregon 600 Koasati Louisiana; Texas 300 Koyukon Alaska 97 Kumiai California <6> 40 Kuskokwim, Upper Alaska 102 Kutenai Idaho; Montana <5> 6,000 Lakota Nebraska; Minnesota; North Dakota; South Dakota; Montana 43 Luiseno California 60 Lushootseed Washington 10 Maidu, Northwest California 10 Makah Washington 887 Malecite-Passamaquoddy Maine <5> 6 Mandan North Dakota 181 Maricopa Arizona 39 Menomini Wisconsin 800 Mesquakie Iowa; Oklahoma; Kansas; Nebraska 2,100 Micmac Boston; New York City <5> 496 Mikasuki Florida 5 Miwok, Central Sierra California 1 Miwok, Coast California 8 Miwok, Lake California 10 Miwok, Northern Sierra California 1 Miwok, Plains California 10 Miwok, Southern Sierra California 234 Mohave Arizona 2,017 Mohawk
New York <3> 20 Mono California 6,213 Muskogee Oklahoma; Alabama; Florida 148,530 Navajo Arizona; Utah; New Mexico; Utah 697 Nez Perce Idaho 12 Nisenan California 8,000 Ojibwa, Eastern Michigan <3> 35,000 Ojibwa, Western Montana; Lake Superior; North Dakota <3> 112 Okangan Washington 85 Omaha-Ponca Nebraska; Oklahoma 50 Oneida New York; Wisconsin 15 Onondaga New York 5 Osage Oklahoma 2,000 Paiute, Northern Nevada; Oregon; California; Idaho 20 Panamint California 11,819 Papago-Pima Arizona <7> 4 Pawnee Oklahoma 40 Pomo, Central California 1 Pomo, Northeastern California 10 Pomo, Southeastern California 40 Pomo, Southern California 50 Potawatomi Michigan; Wisconsin; Kansas; Oklahoma 34 Quapaw Oklahoma 343 Quechan California 6 Quinault Washington 234 Mohave Arizona 2,017 Mohawk New York <3> 20 Mono California 6,213 Muskogee Oklahoma; Alabama; Florida 148,530 Navajo Arizona; Utah; New Mexico; Utah 697 Nez Perce Idaho 12 Nisenan California 8,000 Ojibwa, Eastern Michigan <3> 35,000 Ojibwa, Western Montana; Lake Superior; North Dakota <3> 112 Okangan Washington 85 Omaha-Ponca Nebraska; Oklahoma 50 Oneida New York; Wisconsin 15 Onondaga New York 5 Osage Oklahoma 2,000 Paiute, Northern Nevada; Oregon; California; Idaho 20 Panamint California 11,819 Papago-Pima Arizona <7> 4 Pawnee Oklahoma 40 Pomo, Central California 1 Pomo, Northeastern California 10 Pomo, Southeastern California 40 Pomo, Southern California 50 Potawatomi Michigan; Wisconsin; Kansas; Oklahoma 34 Quapaw Oklahoma 343 Quechan California 6 Quinault Washington 107 Salish, Southern Puget Sound Washington 30 Salish, Straits Washington <3> 200 Seneca New York; Oklahoma 1 Serrano California 12 Shasta California 234 Shawnee Oklahoma 2,284 Shoshoni Nevada; Idaho; Wyoming 100 Skagit Washington 10 Snohomish Washington 50 Spokane Washington 65 Tanacross Alaska 75 Tanaina Alaska 30 Tanana, Lower Alaska 115 Tanana, Upper Alaska 200 Tenino Oregon 1,300 Tewa New Mexico; Arizona 927 Tiwa, Northern New Mexico 1,631 Tiwa, Southern New Mexico 775 Tlingit Alaska 5 Tolowa Oregon 113 Tsimshian Alaska <5> 6 Tubatulabal California 10 Tututni Oregon 50 Umatilla Oregon 5 Unami Oklahoma; New Jersey; Delaware 1,984 Ute-Southern Paiute Colorado; Utah; Arizona; Nevada; California 100 Walla Walla Oregon 69 Wasco-Wishram Oregon; Washington 10 Washo California; Nevada 10 Wichita Oklahoma 10 Wintu California 3,000 Yakima Washington 406 Yaqui Arizona <6> 78 Yokuts California 12 Yuchi Oklahoma 6 Yuki California 10,000 Yupik, Central Alaska 1,100 Yupik, Central Siberian Alaska <8> 400 Yupik, Pacific Gulf Alaska 10 Yurok California 6,413 Zuni New Mexico
363,995 TOTAL Source: Adapted from B. Grimes (1996). Ethnologue: Languages of the world. Dallas: SIL International. Updated February 1999 at http://www.ethnologue.com/


Comparisons of assumptions of English only or Bilingual education: http://coe.sdsu.edu/people/jmora/Prop227/AssumptionsEOvBE.htm

Of the 6,000 languages listed in Ethnologue (Grimes 1992) for which there are population figures,
52% are spoken by less than 10,000 people;
28% by less than 1,000; and
83% are restricted to single countries, and so are particularly exposed to the policies of a single government.
10% are spoken by less than 100 speakers

[ThoughtCriminal]

1. Always consult the New Speak Dictionary

Easy to learn! Thinner every year!

[William769]

2. The Official language of the United states is...

Whatever the hell you want it to be. We don't have one.

[aquart]

3. English is the language of the Constitution.

It is the language of the Declaration of Independence.

Nahuatl, one of the so-called "indigenous languages" has so many indoeuropean-rooted words you can read an Aztec calendar with an indoeuropean glossary.

The human being didn't spring up from the ape on American soil. All languages here are immigrant languages.

Is it your plan to create a separate nation for Spanish speakers? Are they supposed to be the only immigrant group too stupid to learn English like every other immigrant group did before them? Or is Spanish, a language of brutal conquerors, too sacred to tamper with?

Do you think the United States will benefit from a Spanish Quebec in our midst?

What was the story of the Tower of Babel? The people were united to build the tower, but then, suddenly, they could not speak to each other, and all separated. GREAT PLAN FOR THE UNITED STATES.

If we do not have a common language, we will be separated and destroyed, because we cannot communicate.

Not to mention the absolutely stinking racism in keeping hispanics segregated by language so that they CANNOT participate in the mainstream. Lotta cultural respect in that. Right up there with teaching "black English" so young people could never escape the ghetto. Standard American is a class passport. You don't travel without it. But how nice of you to decide to exempt some of our people. The "brown" ones.

[bigtree]

4. I think folks can choose for themselves what language to speak

and recognize. Likewise, the government can put it's stuff in whatever form it wants, but it should remember that when it wants folks to participate in whatever it's hawking.

As for exempting some people, I would never do that. I just happen to think that our country's true heritage lies with the original inhabitants. Some folks can't wait to bury their language and culture. I think folks can learn 'English' if they want to, but I'm always impressed with bilingual folks, especially children. The 'English only' movement seems to limit expression more than it would encourage learning or enable folks. If these folks get what we feel they need through their own language then it is a benefit to them and to us. I do feel that we should also encourage the learning of English, but I don't agree with punitive, limiting measures which intend to force the choice by limiting the text of necessary information to one language, especially in those areas where it's clear that English is not the predominant language spoken.

If we truly cared about these cultures which form our nation and give it character and depth, we would stretch ourselves to learn and understand as many languages and cultures as possible, and we would encourage our children to do so as well.

[Igel]

27. The "original" languages are long extinct or

mutated into something their speakers wouldn't recognize. 12-25k years is a long time for language change. Moreover, in many places the "currently indigenous" languages are relative newcomers. Algonquian's time depth--how far back we go until we presumably have a single language, not daughter languages--is under 4k years, and it spread by exterminating other languages--and probably involved Algonquian speakers spreading at the expense of the ethnicities, if not the peoples, that lived there. But who knows, maybe humans only go to the NE US/SE Canada a few thousand years ago.

But that's not true for the west. We know the Shoshone got to their "ancestral grounds" in the 13th century or so, that the Navajo were relative newcomers to the SW from places much further north, that the Comanches moved into Texas about the same time the Spanish did. Of course, each resulted in assimilation or ethnic cleansing. And we know that the Eskimos in the west probably pushed out the Eskimos that used to live there. That's how invasions go. No point being squeamish about them, or pretend ethnic cleansing and genocide are either peculiarly recent or Western.

The genes of the "original inhabitants" are buried in the waves of later immigrants; some might possibly be found in S. America, but that's so controversial an utterance as to be worth laughing at more than taking seriously. Their languages are completely gone or their remnants not identifiable. And whatever cultural traits they had that weren't simple accommodations to their environments are likewise indistinguishable.

[ret5hd]

5. what a load of self rightous distorted crap...

It sounds like the only one that wants a seperate nation for Spanish speakers is YOU...as long as that nation is called mexico, or spain, or argentina, or anything but the u.s.a.

And of COURSE what we ALL want (all being those not offended by the presence of immigrants in our midst) is a Spanish Quebec. Who wouldn't want that?

And of COURSE we should all believe (in the literal sense) a fairy tail about a tower built to heaven.

And of COURSE a common language is 100% necessary, because we all know people find it impossible to converse in more than one language...countries like belize ( almost everyone speaks english, spanish, and creole, and many also speak german) notwithstanding.

And of COURSE our goal is to keep hispanics segregated by language so they cannot participate. All we have to do now is figure out how too keep their kids from learning english. (You do know that with almost every wave of immigrants to this country, the first generation spoke little or no english, the second generation spoke both english and their parents language fluently, and the third generation spoke almost exclusively english. You do know that, right? Don't you? That includes german, irish, italian, etc etc etc. AND YET, the precious and holy language called english was NEVER threatened. You do know that, right?)

pffft...the only racist in THIS subthread is you.

[QC]

67. speaking of "self rightous distorted crap"

I am planning a Halloween barn dance, and you absolutely must tell me where you got that incredible straw man. He will look great over the punchbowl!

[Swamp Rat]

9. Non. Cajuns disagree and so do I

It was "stinking racism" and ethnic bigotry (and economic thievery) that forced us in Louisiana to speak English, from Andrew Jackson to the present day. Fortunately, we have been able, over the last two decades, to restore French as a common language in Southwest Louisiana. Also, large percentage of people in New Orleans speak fluent Spanish, and that's not including guest workers since hurricane Katrina. Many of us are bilingual - the benifits of which are too numerous to list.

"If we do not have a common language, we will be separated and destroyed, because we cannot communicate." - In the myth of the Tower of Babel, yes. With a little training in a romantic language, one would be able to communicate with over 300 million Spanish speakers and nearly 200 million Portuguese speakers in the Western hemisphere alone. Many of my friends are fluent in more than two languages or are at least working on a third. These are Americans, born and raised. SMART Americans!

I have more faith in the linguistic abilities of humans... if I can learn to speak a few languages, then ANYBODY can. :D

[bigtree]

12. common language

that's the phrase

[Swamp Rat]

19. Spanish is common here.

So is French. Most people I know speak these languages (New Orleans), and some of my friends even speak a little Portuguese. Add to that all the people around me speaking Arabic, Hindustani, Urdu, Vietnamese, Cantonese, Thai, Italian, and German... you must live in a very different part of the country than I.

[bigtree]

22. different part , yes, but we have quite a mix of cultures

here in the suburbs of D.C.

[Canadian Socialist]

14. As I have a fair-to-middling grasp of French (conversational)

I found it fairly easy to communicate with my latino/a friends. When I was in Peru, within a couple of weeks, I was picking it up very fast. And I'm no spring chicken. Just a little stream-of-consciousness thing going on here. Carry on...

[Swamp Rat]

16. ¡Si!

Sim, ji ha, jå, da, sogyandesutai, YES!!! :D

Humans can adapt. Even if faced with a Tower of Babel situation, humans will adapt readily.

[Karenina]

31. What you said, Swamperkins!

Dyed-in-the-wool monolinguists so nerve me with their "stinking racism."

"If we do not have a common language, we will be separated and destroyed, because we cannot communicate."

What they in ignorance REFUSE TO REALIZE, is that if we have no common language and HAVE THE MENSCHLICH DESIRE to communicate, WE WILL SIMPLY CREATE A COMMON LANGUAGE. That is, in fact, the very reason Englisch has become Lingua Franca.

Language is a living thing and an integral part of our creativity. The first time my kids came to Germany, we had a play date with my neighbor's kids. By the end of the day the kids were communicating FLUENTLY with each other in a language that NEITHER ULRIKE OR I COULD UNDERSTAND. In 12 hours they had developed non-verbal signals, assigned and traded words and figured out ways to make themselves understood to each other. It was FASCINATING to watch.

[Swamp Rat]

36. Liebling!

Wie gehts? :hug:

[Karenina]

41. Viel besser!!!

Guck mal hier! Musik ist die UNIVERSAL SPRACHE und jetzt bin ich wieder dran!!! :bounce:



Die links, mit masochismus schlussel! ;-)

[Swamp Rat]

42. LOL!

:rofl:

S-s-s-sehr lu-lu-lu-luu-lustig!

[bigtree]

43. Felsen und Rolle sterben nie!

:P

[bigtree]

46. another crack at it

Felsen ist mein Liebling

[Karenina]

48. Aber rollen (besonders ins Heu)

ist auch GEIL!;-)

[bigtree]

49. was ist Geil

:dunce:


edit: :blush:

[Swamp Rat]

52. Erotomane!!

:rofl: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya:

Betracht du die Pfosten Nr. 50 und 51. Er geht mir auf den Sack! :eyes:

[Lydia Leftcoast]

53. Eine Fremdsprache zu lernen, das macht man reich!

What seems to lie behind the insistence on English only is, "I never learned another language, so I'm threatened by the presence of people who speak something else. They're obviously trying to take over."

As a poster above said, the pattern for every non-English speaking immigrant group has been a first generation that may learn no English or learn it imperfectly, a second generation that still understands the ancestral language and may even speak it but is English-dominant, and a third generation that knows only a few words of the ancestral language, if anything.

I've seen that with Germans, Koreans, Latvians, Japanese, Chinese, French, and Scandinavians.

A Japanese-American woman from Hawaii once told me that when she was a child, she believed that speaking Japanese was somthing that happened naturally as one got older: her grandparents spoke only Japanese, her parents spoke half and half, and she and most of her friends spoke none.

Over sixty years ago, Fiorello LaGuardia became mayor of New York City, partly on the basis of his ability to campaign in both Italian and Yiddish. How many non-English-speaking Italian-Americans and Jewish-Americans are there in New York today?

[charlie]

78. Yup

My naturalized Mom's English is for crap. However, her ignorant spawn skipped a generation, since she refused to teach us Japanese (being a post war bride in ultra-modern go-go America, she figured Japanese in her kids would be considered a backwoods taint). So now I'm the goob stuck between my wife who speaks Spanish and my son who's fluent in Japanese, with me having the kind of pidgin that wins the sort of affection reserved for the retarded.

One thing that's funny about the neo-nativists is that they don't seem to notice that English is the lingua franca. The world is soaked in it, it's the one language that'll get you by in just about any country you care to visit. It's the language used when Filipinos want to talk to Hungarians. You'd think the internet at least would've made them aware of that fact. The far-off day may come where most Americans are bilingual, but there's no danger of English being ditched.

[QC]

81. Meu guarda-chuva cor-de-rosa é fulsome e loquacious! n/t

[Fountain79]

32. Who would have a harder time in this country....

A person who only spoke Spnaish or a person who only spoke English?

[Swamp Rat]

38. Both, apparently.

:D

[Fountain79]

50. How many doctors, lawyers, dentists, etc...

do you honestly know that speak no English?

[Swamp Rat]

51. How many licks does it take to get to the center of a Tootsie Roll?

[Lydia Leftcoast]

54. Look, for the umpty ninth time, NOBODY is saying that immigrants

shouldn't learn English.

And plenty of professionals have come to this country without knowing English, having been trained in their home countries. Case in point, Latvian refugees after World War II (my grandfather, an earlier Latvian immigrant, helped many of them). They spent years--years--learning English before they could pass licensing exams in their professions.

For your information, learning a foreign language to "professional competence" (knowing it well enough to hold down a responsible job and to function as an adult) takes a long time beyond the survival stage, and it varies with the natural aptitude of the learner and the distance of Language A from Language B.

For example, Japanese is hard for English speakers, who require four times more study to achieve professional competence in Japanese than they do in Spanish. However, Koreans find Japanese ridiculously easy.

One maddening result of American monolingualism is that most Americans know NOTHING about the psychology of foreign language learning.

On the one hand, they think learning another language is so hard that only really bright people can do it and so useless that only impractical people do it.

On the other hand, they think that everyone should be able to speak English the minute they set foot on American soil.

Does anyone see a contradiction here?

Smug monolingual Americans should be glad that other countries aren't as arrogant in this respect.

Japan prints directional signs in Japanese and English and offers emergency preparedness and other public information in English, Portuguese (because of all the Brazilian Japanese who have come to the land of their ancestors to work), Chinese, and Korean.

[Fountain79]

66. I speak Spanish fluently.....

So this is not a comment from a "smug monoligual" American. This is coming from someone who has learned a foreign language about 5 years ago. I am aware of the struggle that it takes to learn a foreign language. I would oppose any law that states that signs must be in English, etc. Still for the UPTEENTH time, no one is saying that English HAS to be learned, but it doesn't do a service to immigrants to handicap them and not have them learn English as quickly as possible.

[Solon]

73. Then English schools for adults need to be better funded...

Granted, immersion is touch and go, but we do have these schools that teach English as a second language for adults, the problem is that they sometimes have waiting lists that last months on the low end, and years on the high end. Not to mention that immigrants still have to work and pay the bills, so having time to be fully fluent isn't available all the time. Passing laws to make English official will do precisely jack, and none of us advocate for these schools to be closed down. However opening up many more of these schools will go a long way to help recent immigrants in learning the predominate language.

[Fountain79]

86. In the major cities in Mexico....

You can find English schools everywhere. Look up English schools in a yellow pages in Mexico and you will be looking at several pages of schools. In Kansas City area alone there are a number of non-profits that offer that service. A number of schools have ESL programs enacted in them.(which I don't quite agree with, at a certain age a child is able to learn another language simply out of necessity) How much assistance must be offered, particularly for those who aren't in this country legally to begin with?

[Solon]

88. I know such schools exist...

I'm just saying there aren't enough of them, and the ones in Mexico are in great demand, but also have tuitions that are prohibitively expensive to most of the populace. Also, I said nothing of illegals, we are talking about assimilation of immigrants in GENERAL. I address illegal immigration right here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=1064574&mesg_id=1064574

[QC]

68. You're beautiful!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

:pals: :pals: :pals: :pals: :pals: :pals: :pals: :pals: :pals: :pals: :pals: :pals: :pals: :pals: :pals: :pals: :pals: :pals: :pals: :pals: :pals: :pals: :pals: :pals: :pals: :pals: :pals: :pals: :pals: :pals: :pals: :pals: :pals: :pals: :pals: :pals: :pals: :pals: :pals: :pals: :pals: :pals: :pals: :pals: :pals:

[Igel]

28. "Original" Nahuatl (leaving out any post-Columbian borrowings)

has probably as many PIE roots as Basque or Khoe languages have.

People in the 19th century kept trying to show that various American languages were IE or Welsh or whatever, but they also tried to show that Welsh was closely related to Hebrew.

Personally, I find that balkanizing a country by language breeds dissatisfaction and conflict more than it resolves anything, since languages are seldom and, in fact, cannot be treated equally (and need not be treated equally). But I like to think that's a fairly rational proposition.

And it is true that all languages in the US are immigrant languages (in the sense that they derive from or are descended from languages brought over by immigrants); the same can be said for Europe, Asia, and Australia. I've often wondered why Mexicans are proud of Spanish, the language of their conquerors. On one hand, I rather like English, and I'm of Celtic stock, so it's inane wondering. But on the other hand I don't think that if I and my family immigrated to Thailand it would be at all reasonable for the Thais to have to find accommodation to my culture and language.

[bigtree]

30. accomodation to the extent that they could effectively discharge

whatever legal or societial obligations and responsibilities are required or necessary.

Outside of that, I wouldn't want to stifle any of the languages or cultures that folks happen to bring to the country by enacting exclusive measures that assume compliance translates into respect or order.

There are so many words and expressions which have so much more meaning than similar words we might use regularly here. So many of our expressions in the US today are shorthand, condensed speech with implied understanding which may not be apparent or translated effectively. I like the give and take we have now. There doesn't seem to be a need to enhance understanding of English, so much as there's a need to reconcile the values inherent in the many different expressions which are found in the non-english vocabulary with our own ones so deeply nuanced in our clipped American speech.

btw, I'm facinated with your understanding of our early inhabitants. Thank you for your insight. Much to learn.

[BlueStateModerate]

44. Thank you for some sanity

As much as it would be great for everyone to just get along, without a common language, it would be awfully difficult for the US to continue prospering.

[Wash. state Desk Jet]

6. English Is The One Language

George Bush is not the right one to say it, as he preverts the language in it,s formality. He said I don,t approve of it be sung in Spanish or it being taken out of context. This in deed is slanderous.It is slanderous because it defies defies the fact the this is and always is a country of one language, that is English.The Jewish community adressed this in a question in southern California in the early eightys. H.G. Rickover a very powerful retired head of the Navys necular power programme a Navy Adr., who was respected and feared by many,disliked by some,feared by those who disliked him the most.Those who were not of the side of the right way of viewing how it is we deal with the power of the nucular reactor. He was known as a American scientist,respected and feared by politicans corperate higher ups and military commanders in the Generals catagorys.If he were alive today Mr. Bush would be known as Mr. nobody.The Jewish community asked H.G. Rickover ,Question) As there are so many languages being spoken in southern California ,how many languages should we speak in order to keep up the the changing times. This they may have felt or believed, perhaps thought, was apprropriate given the many languages being used in the Los Angelous Orange county area. It was seemingly a simply honest question to thouse of the Jewish community in southern Calif. Little though ,did they know ,just who they were asking that question, and if you had ever been spoken to by H. G. Rickover ,you would know there are certain areas that you are expected to know,and that furthermore it is required,no exception to the rule,you have the potential, you find it period. That means you will and fast.I had read where this was a concern of the Jewish community in southern California, and I thought ,oh, no, if they are going to ask him that question, Well I wore my hard hat for a few days in prepreation for the back lash. This because I knew what was to come. H. G. Rickover answered that question in a very severe way,as a American scientist, founder of the Navys nucular power programme, Navy Adr. in charge, feared and respected by presidents and members of the U.S. congress and Senate,feared and respected by his peers.He spoke as n American,and he said There is only one language spoken in this country,The language Is English,And there Is No Exception To The rule Ever.It is unamerican and completly disrespectful to think otherwise.

[bigtree]

7. Rickover was born in Makow, Russia

At the age of six, his family emigrated to the United States and settled in Chicago, Illinois

[Wash. state Desk Jet]

15. Rickover

I have never known anyone to question where a scientist was born where it will come to the works one does as a scientist.If one would think this country is so well off the it has all it can use, than one should be a republican because that is the how they think.The thing of is a standing view that seems to be taught to the children is ,it is still the best country in world to live in, with little teachings to just how it became so. It bacame great because it is a country that would ask with humility.If it has all that it need, and more that that to the point that it would have the audacity to adopt a beliefe that the gift of scientific potential is expendible or inconsequential than all is lost.

[Canadian Socialist]

8. I thought the U.S. didn't have an official language

In Canada, we are officially bilingual - English and French. Everything official must be in those two languages. In addition, all product packaging must be as well. However, each province has the right to be officially unilingual or bilingual. Right now, IIRC, only New Brunswick is officially bilingual. However, if say I was a francophone in Alberta, and needed federal government access, I have the right to demand it in French.
edited to add: in some communities, eg the Queen Charlotte Islands, the languages taught are English and Haida Qwai (sp?). There are smaller communities in the prairies where everything is done in French and/or the FN language (a holdover from the Metis that settled in these areas).

[Swamp Rat]

10. Oui!

See post #9. ;)

[bigtree]

11. got me there

I think you're correct. That's the goal, but not the law.

Thanks. Shows how much attention I pay to the whole debate.

[TexasLawyer]

13. English was good enough for Jesus Christ

It should be good enough for us.

Paraphrase of a Texas legislator in a debate on Spanish in the schools. Yes, REALLY!

[William769]

17. Oy vey!

:rofl:

[Wash. state Desk Jet]

18. Oh, Canada

I don,t know that the Canadians are completely satisified with two languages. Since Montreal will from time to time either want to become independent or will think that French should be national language. At any rate the Founders left Canada be Canada and kept fort Niagara at the American side always well armed and prepared. And all forts along the Canadian border.It was a wise choice One Language. Give us your what? and we will become what? With one language.They knew just what it would take.

[Canadian Socialist]

24. WTF? When did Montreal say it wanted to be independent?

I must have missed that memo. On the other hand, QUEBEC has had from time to time, sovereignty votes.

[NMMNG]

65. Some people are so ignorant they should wear signs

So other people can stay a safe distance away. :scared:

[NoodleyAppendage]

20. Having more than one "official" language in the US is SOCIALLY DEVISIVE

I welcome any and all immigrants to our country. However, as part of that entry to US citizenship, the bare minimum requirement should be an understanding that the immigrant will learn English. Learning English DOES NOT mean losing your cultural identity. It does, however, mean that you are willing to do your part to become part of this wonderful melting pot of humanity.

I thought the idea behind the US was a collective of individuals coming together for a common purpose. Endorsing multiple languages in lue of a common language is counter to that common social purpose.

J

[bigtree]

25. I'm not endorsing anything

except, maybe, any action that's inclusive and not punitive or disabling which intends to empower folks through the sharing of cultures, experiences, and understanding. I just don't think we can get there by disseminating and communicating in one language. I don't think that's how our nation has progressed. It's so limiting on its face that I can't see the benefit or truth in insisting that all wisdom and opportunity in the U.S. is represented through the English language.

[Solon]

35. True...

You cannot expect everyone who comes to this country to even have a rudementary ability to speak English understandably, that's a ridiculous requirement, and would limit immigrants to those from some places in Europe, India, Japan, Some places in Africa, and China. And most of those would be the educated and wealthy from those nations, I thought we were a nation of the dirty poor, not a nation of aristocrats!

Besides which, we have become a melting pot in other ways besides just immigration, but also through bartering and conquering, we ended up having people who suddenly became citizens or residents who are not Anglophones at all. One person mentioned Louisiana in one case, where the people haven't yet been totally subsumed by Anglo-Americans, other places are areas in the Southwest and West where Spanish, not English, dominates the area, both because those were Spanish speakers before they became part of the US and also due to proximity to Mexico.

[NoodleyAppendage]

60. What would an immigrant stand to lose by learning English??????

I hear the arguments against, but what is actually lost by learning to speak English in addition to the immigrant's native tounge? Surely, you aren't making the assumption that immigrants are too ignorant to learn the PRIMARY language of their adoptive country. That's insulting to those who want to live and work here.

J

[Solon]

71. OK, maybe I'll give you the benefit of the doubt...

Adults have a harder time learning a second language if they were not taught that language in school growing up. Now that is the reason why I mentioned those nations I mentioned in my other post, because they do precisely that, today. You cannot wave a magical wand and all of the sudden all Immigrants speak English at even a rudimentary level. You may think its easy to learn a second language, but its not, so don't expect too much from the first generation immigrant. Its a non-issue to begin with, by the Second and Third Generations, they are either Monolingual in English, or Bilingual by default.

[NoodleyAppendage]

59. Irish immigrants learned English. Italian immigrants learned English.

ALL OTHER immigrant populations that have successfully integrated in the US have adopted English as their primary language.

J

[Solon]

75. Not true everywhere...

Look up the Italian neighborhoods in New York, or Gaelic speaking slums all over the Northeast, it took a few generations in some cases for these immigrants to fully integrate, by language and culture, mostly because of Anti-Catholic bigotry. Hell, to this day you will find neighborhoods in major cities where 4th generation Americans speak their native tongue over English WITHIN that neighborhood. Chinatowns come to mind here.

[Karenina]

47. Oh, gimme a FICKEN BREAK!

Before pontificating it would behoove you Deine eigene Sprache zu beherrschen. In lieu of silly divisive comments, you might ponder such American mainstays as ah, errraaaa... Shenandoah, Los Angeles, Bismarck oder Eau Claire. Or how about tacos, sushi or egg foo yung with a side of borscht?

[NoodleyAppendage]

58. Look...It's simple. One common language helps facilitate community.

I'm not impressed with your college level German, nor your assumption that I'm unaware that many English words have foreign roots. But, as is typical of the bullshit around here, you choose not to discuss or refute the merits of my comments but to deflect with needless retorts like English has incorporated the word "kindergarten."

It is WELL KNOWN from years of social research and thousands of years of history that social cohesiveness is inversely related to the amount of communication barriers among a citizenry.

Kleine gedanken von den kleinen gehirnen.


J

[readmoreoften]

64. And how are they supposed to learn this "english"?

1st generation adult immigrants never came to America and learned the language. They barely got by, stuck with their own clan, and their children became bilingual. I don't see any difference between then and now. It's hard to learn a language as an adult. Especially when you work 16 hours a day for $25.

Listen, if one of FSM's noodly appendages contains a conduit to the english language, I'm all for condemning these folks for their lack of fluency. Meanwhile, I'll chalk it up to the fact that they don't have the money to hire private tutors.

[QC]

69. Are you trying to make some kind of point here,

or just display your expertise with Babelfish?

[Karenina]

82. Oh, Sir Landlocked!

:rofl:

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

21. English itself is a bastard language with many parents.

Everything from French, to German, to Italian, to Spanish, to good old profanity, and a healthy dose of many others.

So what if we have to throw in more Spanish or Sudanese or Chinese?

Hell, most Americans are a long way from the "Kings English", and Boobya speaks a dialect that could only be called Incoherant.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

23. The American Language Is English.

Any citizen of this country should be able to speak it. They don't have to fluently, but at least at some basic competency level. America is full of diversity and it's a great thing that we have so much cultural diversity here. But we should have a common language and do have a common language, which is english. I find nothing wrong with that.

[SPKrazy]

33. Agreed! n/t

[Spider Jerusalem]

26. What is the American language?

Good question. Really depends on where you are. Most places, it's English. Go to Lancaster County, Pennsylvania (where some of my ancestors emigrated to from Germany 250 years ago) and it's a dialect of German, in some places (still, despite pressure from English). Go to parts of Maine, or Louisiana, and it's a dialect of French. And so on.

But...as to what you say here: There is no reasonable argument that would justify the systematic removal of those indigenous peoples from the land that had sustained generations. There is no reasonable argument for the destruction of their culture and the forced imposition of the settler's language and ideology.

No reasonable argument, maybe, but it's the way things have gone with population movements and mass migrations throughout human history. There was no reasonable argument to justify the Anglo-Saxons invading Britain and driving the native Celts west into Cornwall and Wales, for extinguishing the Celtic culture throughout most of what is now England by dominance and assimilation, for forcing those who didn't flee into serfdom and vassalage...but, they did it anyway. And after a little over half a millenium went by, the Normans did it to them.

Same thing happened all Roman Europe during the third through sixth centuries AD, the so-called 'Germanic Migration Period', as Roman power first waned and then collapsed , and the 'barbarians' carved up the old Empire. It happened in Japan, where immigrant invaders from Korea reduced the indigenous Ainu to a small population on the north of Hokkaido. There's not much reasonable in it, but there aren't many human societies that haven't done it at one time or another. (And the indigenous American societies were hardly blameless...the Aztecs, in terms of intentional butchery and genocide, made the Spanish look good in comparison.)

[Fountain79]

29. As someone who is bilingual...

I think it is a tragedy that so few people in our country speak two languages. I read an article once that said that around 9% of our country speak two languages fluently. That being said, while English is not the official language I think it would be foolish to deny that it is the unifying national language. Of course there are going to be areas where other languages are spoken but in order to thrive in this country you have to know English. I think it does a disservice to immigrants when well meaning people do not encourage them to learn and speak English.

[knitter4democracy]

34. We don't have an official language, and that's a good thing.

Go ahead and flame me on this one. Think about it: ours was the only nation at that time to be based on an idea, an idea of a democratic republic. We almost became German speakers, and French wouldn't have been far out of line, given how much they helped us in the Revolution.

The reality is, every immigrant group has kept its language for the first generation, lost it in the second, and then worked to reclaim it after that. Only the English speakers haven't had to work that hard, but we have lost most of the regional dialects we used to have.

If we say English is the official language, then I think that a part of that amazing dream dies. How can we have a true democracy if there are people who really can't understand what's going on? You can say that they need to learn English, but it's much harder than it looks and takes years. So, during that time, are they not going to be able to read a ballot or a newspaper? How can they be the full citizens they are, then?

Oh, then that's it--you don't think they're really citizens. Oh, but they are. The vast majority of our nation's immigrants are legal (I have two in my family) and try to assimilate as much as they can without losing their identity. Those who are illegally here often work on becoming legal or just go back and forth between their country and ours for work.

I was a high school English teacher, and I taught kids of all backgrounds. English is a hard language to master, even for native speakers. All the parents I dealt with who were immigrants wanted their kids to master English and were doing the best they could. Until they understood better, though, they needed things in their native language.

[bigtree]

37. well said

understanding is a sharing of ideas, communication happens on so many levels.

[Solon]

39. I think the biggest fear is this...

You are correct in the fact that most immigrants in this country lose the Mother tongue within about three generations, the first one barely speaks English, the Second generation speaks two languages, one for the home, the other for the public, and by the third generation, the mother language is usually gone, and they are now the typical Mono-lingual American.

The only examples I can think of of groups of immigrants or not so immigrants that didn't lose their mother tongue are those that are purposefully isolated from larger American society due to physical differences, in other words, racism, and they already had a well established communities where their language is already spoken. Now, one thing to make clear, for practical purposes, those who still speak their native language and have been here a long time also speak English with fluency. That's a given, but because of being ostracized for so long, they keep the native language for cultural cohesiveness. Creoles in Louisiana and Latinos in the Southwest are two examples of this, Native American Nations are technically another example, however, in their case, they were LEGALLY separated, rather than having a de facto separation happen.

I think the fear of Anglophone Americans is this, they may, theoritically, lose dominance by the middle of the century, this probably scares them to death, but, then again, considering the demographics of the Continent, this is to be expected, Mexico is the second most populous nation on the Continent, with a third of the US population, approximately. Whereas Canada has a tenth of US population at this time. So its no wonder that Spanish is the second most spoken language in the US, and it shouldn't be feared as such either. Just another influence on our culture.

[knitter4democracy]

85. That makes sense.

I've never understood the fear, myself. Mixing of culture is a good thing, I think, and most of us aren't all that attached to ours anyway. I mean, I didn't find out that I was mostly Irish until I was married and my families both started doing some looking into their backgrounds. I'm not Catholic, I don't speak Gaelic, and I seriously can't do the step dancing. (I'm boiling things down a lot, but it's still a point.) We've lost those Irish traditions and culture, and it's not like we're all going to start fighting to bring them back.

[Solon]

87. Ha! I'm Irish too!

In my case it was rather obvious, both my last and first name are Irish in origin, not to mention that I was raised Catholic. Not that anymore, obviously, however, the Irish are an excellent example of immigrants that not only assimilated into the culture regardless of "nativist" hostility, but also greatly influenced this nation's culture in turn. Its not a one way street, we did not retain the culture of the Founding Fathers, but rather we blend those that come into the country. St. Patrick's day is an example of this, though bastardized by Irish Americans from the original, it was a holiday to celebrate cultural cohesiveness, at first. Now, its probably the ONLY "ethnic" holiday that damned near everyone in this nation celebrates in one way or another, regardless of whether they are Irish or not. Granted, its a matter of debate whether this traditionally religious holiday being celebrated this way is a good thing or not, but then again, I say kick back, relax, and drink some Guinness.

[knitter4democracy]

89. Exactly!

How many of us grandchildren and great-grandchildren of immigrants have kept our culture? Is that a good thing, to have lost a language, a belief-system, and other cultural parts of ourselves? So this wave wants to avoid that culture death. I say, good for them.

[Solon]

90. Interesting little historical note...

In the run up to the Mexican-American War, many Irish in the United States fought on the Mexican side in the war, the reason was rather obvious, when you think about it, the US was a Protestant country at the time(still is, largely), and they thought that this war was about religion(it was about land, mostly, but then again, it was a BAD war all around, even Lincoln voted against it). Not to mention the discrimination they faced in their own nation, so they defected.

As a reward for this, many Irish were awarded commendations, government posts, and to this day, Mexicans still honor their service to Mexico. Not to mention that the story of Zorro was, in part, inspired by an Irishman:

http://www.vivasancarlos.com/patrick.html
http://home.earthlink.net/~rggsibiba/html/sib/sib6.html

But the secret of the dashing Hispanic swordsman was that he was an Irish gentleman of noble birth named William Lamport, born in 1615 in County Wexford. William hailed from a Catholic family, and left Ireland during the confederate conflict as a result of oppressive English rule. He worked for a while as a privateer, attacking Englishmen merchantmen of Cromwell’s Commonwealth. In 1643 he enlisted in one of the three Irish regiments in Spanish service (O’Neill, O’Donnell and Fitzgerald) to fight against the French forces in Spanish Flanders. He was commended for bravery and entered Spanish Royal service.

Assuming the name “Guillen Lombardo” he went to the then-Spanish colony of Mexico. Once in Mexico he developed a sympathy for the poor and native Indians. He lived amongst them studying astrology and their healing skills. For this he came to the notice of the Spanish Inquisition, which under the guise of religious “correctness” hunted out enemies of the King of Spain. William became the leader of the fledgling Mexican independence movement. His name occurs time and time again in reports of Inquisitors gathering information by torture of suspected rebels. William was noted for a series of steamy affairs with Spanish noblewomen, both married and unmarried. He became engaged to Antonia Turcious, a member of the nobility, but before he could marry he was arrested by the Inquisition and accused of conspiracy against Spain and its Most Catholic Majesty. He was jailed for 10 years, but escaped from his dungeon and emerged only at night to daub the walls of Mexico City with his name and anti-Spanish graffiti.

William was arrested in 1652 when found in the bed of the wife of the Spanish Viceroy of Mexico, Marquis Lope Diez de Caderyta. He was sentenced to 7 years imprisonment, at the end of which he was turned over to the Inquisition to be burnt at the stake as a heretic. In 1659 He was tied to the stake in Mexico City, but as the bundles of brush and wood were lit, he undid the ropes that bound him and strangled himself before the flames could reach him.

[readmoreoften]

40. Where are all these immigrants who refuse to learn english?

I've known a lot of immigrants in my time. (I used to speak good Spanish, but I'm rusty.) I've never met one who "refused" to learn english. I've heard stories about immigrants who "refused", but I've never met a single one.

Now, I know MANY immigants who can't speak english very well. I think this has much more to do with the fact that these immigrants are culturally isolated, living in ghettos, and working 16 hours a day with other immigrants. When are they supposed to "learn" english? With what money for tuition?

To all you English Only folks: if you really want Americans to SPEAK ENGLISH, why aren't you pushing for free ESL courses for new citizens and, while we're at it, free courses for current nationals as well, since most of us butcher the language anyway. Is it that their accents that bother you? (Could be corrected with a speech teacher) Or is it just their overall brownness or foreignness? Learning a language takes time. When was the last time you tried?

[Lydia Leftcoast]

56. Yes, indeed!

Immigrants overwhelmingly WANT to learn English. They know better than anyone else that they are limited by their lack of English.

I wish all the people who want immigrants to speak English instantly would go to a foreign country and see how fast THEY pick up the local language without formal instruction.

There are not enough ESL classes available to people who have to work very hard, and when my church in Portland was helping resettle refugees from Bosnia, we were bemused and annoyed to find that the information on ESL classes was available ONLY in English. :wtf:

If you think that immigrants should learn English better, volunteer to tutor them. It's very rewarding, actually.

I also agree that a lot of native-born Americans can barely put an intelligent sentence together and need remedial grammar, remedial spelling, remedial composition, and remedial speech and rhetoric.

[El Fuego]

57. Florida

You said: "why aren't you pushing for free ESL courses for new citizens and, while we're at it, free courses for current nationals as well, since most of us butcher the language anyway."

Yeah yeah, everything's free. Because this is a magic land of Freedom and everything is FREE! Let's push for FREE courses for the "new citizens." And FREE classes for everyone else too! Let's give them a FREE education and FREE health care. Why do you think they call it the Land of the FREEEEEEEE????????????

News flash: nothing's free. Somebody pays for it. Guess who? Taxpayers. Real U.S. citizens who pay taxes.

Floridians alone pay more than $4 BILLION a year in providing public education to the children of illegal immigrants, about $165 million a year in non-reimbursed costs for health care, and about $155 million a year to jail illegal aliens in county and state correctional facilities.

"overall brownness or foreignness" ??? GIVE ME A BREAK.

[readmoreoften]

61. Sorry, I'm sure someone said that about your people at some point.

If they were citizens, then they'd be paying taxes like everyone else. And many of them ARE paying taxes under fake SSI#s. I might be able to be coaxed into deporting criminals (real crimes, not being "an illegal" or "protesting the war" or "traffic tickets.") I can't figure why they have a right to be here more than you or I? This country is BARELY 400 years old.

Miami is a special case. And don't even get me started on border states. Mexicans are more Texan than any Yankee.

And yes, FREE. Or if you don't like FREE, how about student loans for low cost community college courses or local high school ESL courses.

If you want to stop the flood of immigrants to the US, support unionization and living wages for all workers in the US. Stop corporations from hiring these people as slaves. Hell, corporations are bringing them here in many cases.

[El Fuego]

62. "My people"? I've got Cherokee blood running through my veins.

I kid you not. I get to stake out the ridiculous moral high ground on this issue. :P

[readmoreoften]

63. 100% cherokee, eh?

You must be related to my partner. She's only about 10% cherokee though. Oh, well. Why fight when we could be in-laws? Oh wait, that's what in-laws do. :)

[El Fuego]

83. Nah, just enough for bogus bragging rights.

It was the scandalous family secret when I was growing up...

Guess I'm related to your partner, so howdy in-law! :hi:

(Seems like the Cherokee really got around.)

[ContraBass Black]

45. Regarding your thread title

On this Earth, the offical English is British English.

[QC]

70. You need to educate yourself.

There are many Englishes.

Perhaps you need to take a linguistics course at the local community college.

Even linguists generally agree, however, that there is a standard English in most places.

[Solon]

72. I think's he's talking about as the Diplomatic and commerce...

language of the world. The language spoken in international conferences, international business conferences, stuff like that, in that case, the post would be correct, its "Queen's English" if anything. Things change over time, of course, but English is considered the language to know on the international front for now, this is why teachers of English as a second language are in such high demand, especially in South America and Southeast Asia.

Now, there are different dialects of English, whether Scottish Brogue, or Australian and American English, with their own accents as well. This is outside of the pidgin that also predominates in many places in the world, similar to Yiddish, the German/Hebrew pidgin language that developed in Europe, there are other places that have pidgins of English with native languages. Hell, American English is quickly developing into something like that, but English itself developed as a pidgin of Anglo/Saxon and Celtic languages and later others were integrated into it, hence why it is so damned complicated.

[QC]

74. You're right, and I apologize.

I mistook his post for yet another one of those tiresome "unless you speak Anglo-Saxon like an Oxford don you have no right ot make any remarks on languages unless they agree with mine" posts.

[Solon]

76. That reminds me of a funny story of sorts...

OK, in High School, my best friend was an Indian exchange student. Whenever people approached him to talk, they expected "Abu" from Simpsons fame, but he didn't sound like that at all, he spoke English better than Americans, I will say that much. I learned, early on, not to make preconceptions by the way people look or where they are from as to what their mastery of the language is, look at Bush as an example of that, he's not exactly "fluent" in English himself.

[QC]

77. Yes, Bush singlehandedly blows the Ivy League mystique.

Andover, Yale, Harvard = functional illiterate.

I learned this lesson in graduate school, when I noticed that some of my Ivy League professors were fucking idiots and some of the ones from the local teacher's college were brilliant.

Credentials mean very little.

[Solon]

79. That's true...

I think part of it is focus, if you have a teacher in English Literature or Linguistics, whatever, you would expect them to have a higher vocabulary than a Physics professor, even if the Physics professor probably has a better grasp of Latin. But also another part is where you are in life when you learned it, Bush faced no consequences if he failed at getting his BS, but someone from a poor or middle class family actually has to worry about keeping that loan or grant that keeps them in college, so they work harder, and can excel even more than Ivy Leaguers.

[QC]

80. Exactly.

Some of us have to earn and defend our position in the world, such as it is, while others got it because two rich slackers fucked.

[MrScorpio]

55. I speak J.J.

DY-NO-MITE!

[spanone]

84. ANY Native American Indian language....