I got coffee and answers today. Very enlightening too!!

[Minnesota Libra]

I’ve been absolutely dumbfounded that more people are not demonstrating in the streets about everything that has gone on these past six years with the White House Idiot’s administration.:wtf: One day I was venting here at DU about that very issue and some nice soul suggested starting conversations and then simply listening to the responses.:applause: So that is precisely what I’ve been doing of late.

That brings us to today’s coffee time with about eight friends who are across the board politically. When there were lulls in the conversation I jumped at the chance to pick their brains. At different times in the conversation over coffee today I mentioned the Bush administration, the bungled war in Iraq, record oil profits, Cheney and his secret oil deals, PNAC, the immigration issue, and much more. Intermittently during the conversation I voiced my shocked that people weren’t filling the streets from one end of this country to the other demonstrating to let lawmakers know their view on a given issue.

Much to my surprise everyone in the group pretty much agreed on why people seem so disinterested. One particular middle-of-road person in the group summed it up this way, “It doesn’t matter how much we write or call our lawmakers or how much we demonstrate these politicians are going to do as they please in the end." The person (a Korean vet) then brought up a local issue to substantiate their point and reviewed for the group how lawmakers had found an underhanded way of taking the issue off the ballot because they knew voters were against it. In the end lawmakers got what they wanted in spite of voters and even plan to raise local taxes to pay for it, whether the voter likes it or not. The person was spot on too because this indeed happened in my area with a construction issue voters thought corporations should pay for if they wanted it. Lawmaker’s argument for the issue was and remains revenue for the area and so the person went on to say, “If lawmakers can find a way to make money, regardless of what the voter wants, they will do it and be dammed with us. So why get out in the streets in the cold, the heat, rain, whatever, when it won’t do any good for the bottom line anyway? It’s the same thing with Bush and everyone in Washington. Yes, I used to believe the voter had the final word but I know better now. I don't even waste my time demonstrating anymore”

Every person around the table, almost in unison said, “Exactly!! Why bother? It won't do any good anyway” I had absolutely no comeback for that one and so I was left speechless, which believe me doesn’t happen very often. I’m still setting here trying to digest the deep depression people must be in to truly believe that they no longer have a voice about anything.

I must say I’m truly dumfounded but at least it gave me an insight into what people from Middle America truly thinks of our political system and the chance to change anything.

Thoughts anyone?????

[serryjw]

1. While petitioning

I got a variation on the same theme BUT the ONE I liked the best was, "OK I voted TWICE and they stole it" What do you say to that?

[Minnesota Libra]

2. After today I understand the sentiment - depressing though nt

[mandyky]

3. Americans have gotten too fat and happy and

had it too easy. My parents lived through the Depression and talked about it a lot. Many people have no clue. What are all these urban dwellers do? At least during the Depression, many people still lived on farms, and weren't as dependent on electricity and such. I (in my 50 years) lived in a house with no indoor toilet facilities or hot water. (many)People today would freak without cable and air conditioning.

As for getting politicians to listen, it may take a revolution and for disaster to strike home for some people.

[Minnesota Libra]

5. Are you trying to say that..................

....9/11 and Katrina wasn't disaster enough for us??? :wow:

[mandyky]

9. Obviously, they weren't enough

Katrina only affected 3 or 4 states, and we hear callers everyday on Washington Journal still blaming the victims.

9/11 also effected 3 states, and seemed to make most American willing to follow GWB into any folly.

I fear it will take 25% unemployment and a major recession if not depression to as Network dude said
"get mad as hell and not take it anymore".

[Minnesota Libra]

15. I hope you're wrong about what it will take to wake people up but.........

....at the same time I think you might be right.:cry:

[mandyky]

17. Actually, people are starting to wake up

but as long as politicians market and PR themselves into their jobs and lie to people, people will be fooled unless things get quite a bit worse.

[fooj]

20. I'll tell you what will wake people the hell up.....

THE DRAFT! That's why I support one...it's the only way to get Americans off of their asses.

[SammyWinstonJack]

35. My parents lived through the Depression, they were very young.

They also benefited from companies that provided health care insurance and paid vacations and overtime and retirement pensions, and job security. Things us "fat and happy" Americans don't have, at least a great deal of us, anyway. I spent my teen years in a two room brick house, with an outhouse and no indoor plumbing,( the bath tub was huge wash tub and we heated our water on a propane stove. Privacy was a folding screen. My brother and I slept in a camper shell with four bunks, in the heat of the high desert and the cold also. Is that "fat and lazy" enough for you?

[mandyky]

38. I said fat and happy

Don't believed I've said lazy, complacent maybe. Fat and happy is an expression that has little to do with being fat or happy, it means comfortable. Yikes, my age is showing or something here.

obviously, 47 to 50 million Americans don't have health insurance, including me. My son has medicaid, thank goodness.

All I was saying, is we Americans overall are used to having it pretty good. With these gas prices, food and other products are going up by anywhere from 30 cents to a dollar. I am worried because our apartment is all electric - what will happen when we can't pay the light bill.

My point is that until the middle and upper middle class feel the pinch they'll remain apathetic and complacent. I already live below the poverty line and expect it to get worse.

[Just Me]

4. I've heard and even experienced that cynicism and resignation.

My response is, "Why give up the only power you have,...to take a stand and express yourself? If everything you have is stripped away, would you give away the only power you have left? If so, do you realize that only you can own the decision to give that power up to those who will not take care of you? Why would you do that?"

:shrug:

Life may not be easy or the way we "thought" it would/should be, but we are all worth the energy to better and advance that life,...aren't we?

[Robbien]

6. Another thing is

People do go out and protest but it doesn't get media attention. Few people outside of New York even know a huge protest happened today. Protests are happening all the time throughout this country, but no one knows.

Our rich global masters want us uninformed and sitting on the couch, munching pizzas and watching "Fear Factor".

[valerief]

7. Once you reach middle-age, the futility of it all becomes very

apparent. The best one can get from the ruling class are small victories. He who controls the biggest guns, controls the world.

[Auntie Bush]

8. People are too busy working and trying to pay for food.

Protesting takes money! It's hard to spend what little money you have when it won't do any good...or you get arrested or put in a cage and the president doesn't even see ya or know you were there. No one even dares tell him...not even the media.

[Minnesota Libra]

12. You know what?? I think you might be on to something. My 20 something...

.....son told me basically that same thing. At first I thought it was just that my son was and remains apolitical. Now you're saying much the same thing. Makes me rethink all this.

[LynzM]

10. I hear you.

I also really, truly believe that if we want a revolution, we have to start by killing TV. Kill every station there is. Force people to go back to living in the world, instead of observing it. Not that all TV is bad, but a lot of it gives people something to focus their interest and energies on besides paying attention to the world we actually live in. Ask people who won Survivor, who won American Idol, who's dating who, you'll get answers. Then ask them who their Congressperson is, or who's in charge in any non-US government. Good luck.

[readmoreoften]

11. Tell them that they are behaving like nihilists.

And that ethical action is imperative in all religions. So if they are religious, tell them it is time to act. If not, tell them that ethical action is imperative anyway. We can't afford to be a nation of murderers and liars. There are three main branches of ethics:

Consequentialism: take action to create a particular positive outcome.
Deontology: take action regardless of outcome because of duty to law or system
Aristotelian virtue ethics: take action out of your own personal integrity to hone particular virtues in your character (you pick the virtues.)

Your coffee groups' ethics are all resoundingly based in consequentialism. Introduce them to other systems. They could choose deontology. You could say, do you believe all Americans have a civic duty? What are those duties? Are you doing your duty? Or even virtue ethics. Virtue ethics can be appealing to individualists as well. What kind of citizen do you believe is virtuous? What would a virtuous citizen do in the face of these challenges. How can you, as an individual, cultivate your personal virtue?

[Minnesota Libra]

14. Hmmmmmmm!! nt

[sam sarrha]

13. just brain washed.... like the rest..

[Minnesota Libra]

18. Brainwashed?? I'm actually.........

.....:rofl: here because these are some of the least brainwashed people you could ever know. They are some extremely well educated and very well informed people, which is why I like talking to them. I generally avoid "brainwashed people" like the plague.

[sam sarrha]

26. wasnt talking about DU.. the Media has done a number in the general public

[Minnesota Libra]

34. I wasn't talking about DU either, I was talking about the group..........

.....I have the pleasure of having coffee with when time allows. Some have lived the history and some have read about it but all of them put me to shame as to how well informed they are.

[zeemike]

16. Our leadership has no stomach for it

It is much easier and profitable for them to just hit us up for contributions for some ads that put money in the pocket of the media than to tell us the truth, and that is the only way we will take back this country is to take to the streets, just like they did in Poland or Serbia.
We need a solidarity movement where organizations like Move On, DU, And all progressive groups get together and have a general strike and take it to DC and stay there until our demands are met.
And my only hope is that after the next election it becomes so evident that it is stolen that this will happen but most likely we will just be given a false reason why the Rethugs kept control of government and do nothing.

[brokensymmetry]

19. Remember France?

The people in France opposed a new labor law. The rulers (I shall not call them leaders, nor shall I call them elected representatives, nor even politicians - they are rulers) chose to ignore the voters.

The voters did various things which were duly reported.

The rulers ultimately retreated.

I can only conclude that the various methods used by the French is the minimum - the absolute minimum - that is required to motivate the rulers to make changes.

Please note that I am not advocating any action. I merely note the historical record.

Or, if you prefer, I report, you decide. :evilgrin:

[Minnesota Libra]

22. I hope it doesn't have to come to that in order for our "rulers"..........

....attention. On the other hand, I won't dismiss anything at this point.

[Tuesday_Morning]

21. Have they protested before?

[OffWithTheirHeads]

25. Who? The French?

Yeah, they protested once before. They called it "Bastille Day".

Yes, my toungue is pirmly planted.

[Minnesota Libra]

28. OMG yes, some in this group are straight out of the 60's but they........

....see many differences between the 60's and now. As one person put it one time, "In our time we were innocent until proven guilty, but not we are guilty until we can prove ourselves innocent. If I didn't know better I'd think we were living in communist China."

I love this group of people because they are some of the most educated and most informed people I've met in a long time.

[Tuesday_Morning]

31. When I go out on there...

...it isn't so much that I think our dear leaders will see me and come around to my way of thinking.

I go out there for my friends and family. For my neighbors to see. This idea that nobody's out on the streets cause it doesn't do any good is such a self-defeating point of view. Nobody goes out on the streets because nobody goes out on the streets. We break our own hearts with that, I think.

And when I think of South Africa or the Civil Rights movement or women's suffrage - why, those were overwhelming situations and yet folks prevailed.

Sometimes I think protesting is kinda like a dance floor. Lot of people are shy about it, especially if the dance floor's not real crowded.

[OneGrassRoot]

23. Yes, that's what I hear across the board as well

I am forever pounding my head against a wall when people, including family say, "Well, that's the way it's always been. Politicians are corrupt...we don't really have a say. There's nothing different going on here."

It drives me insane and I end up yelling, "DOES THAT MAKE IT RIGHT THAT IT'S THE WAY IT'S ALWAYS BEEN? Why should we put up with this and accept it as 'the way it's always been'"?

*sighs* People truly feel powerless....maybe it's the feeling of powerlessness that leads to the brain-dead mentality of following American Idol rather than world news rather than the other way around....who knows, which came first, the chicken or the egg?



:shrug:

[OneGrassRoot]

24. Also.....

Authentic LEADERSHIP - a real maverick, such as Paul Hackett seems to be - showing a truly different path rather than "business as usual" (corrupt politics) is one of the primary things we need to shake things up, IMHO.

[Speck Tater]

27. The more I think about it the more I think the only solution ...

..., in many people's minds, is to become a virtual "hermit" and just let the human race rush headlong into its well-earned extinction while they simply observe from the sidelines. The problem is, there's no such thing as "the sidelines" any more. We are all too connected and interdependant for that.

Yet most people seem to think that politics doesn't really affect them; wars in Iraq and Iran don't really affect them; liars and bunglers in Washington don't really affect them.

The fact that such things DO affect them is beginning to filter down as they see how much it is costing to fill their gas tanks. Eventually, when things get bad enough, people will begin to get interested in what's going on. But only for as long as it takes to turn things around. Then they will mostly go back to being apathetic about anything that doesn't happen on their front lawn.

[Minnesota Libra]

30. Yes, I think you hit it on the head, they won't wake up and........

.....take back their country until things start truly affecting them in a dramatic and severe way. Sad isn't it??

[marions ghost]

41. it's a common delusion

to think that you can ignore or even hide out from the political situation. Having gone through periods of ostrich syndrome, I have always found it to backfire.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

29. Things will eventually reach a critical mass that will involve a....

...number of issues to include more pain economically. More Americans are going to have to feel the pain of the deprivation of things that most Americans have gotten used to having. Think about the rising costs of housing, healthcare (if you can afford to pay for it), gasoline, utilities, food, clothing, water, garbage pick-up, life insurance, homeowner's insurance, etc. We (the lower 99%) have reached the point where we are now having to make decisions about what to do without. That decision-making process is only going to get more difficult with each passing day under the criminal NeoCon Junta.

Think back to other revolutions throughout known history. The primary factor in those revolutions was the failure of the ruling government to keep their people happy from an economic point of view. It is only a matter of time before America reaches critical mass...there is no telling where things will go from there.

On a personal level, I fear for my wife and children. What kind of world are my children going to inherit?

[Minnesota Libra]

32. Your last statement definitely hit a personal cord with me...........

.....because I wonder the same thing about my kids and grandkids. I don't think what we are leaving them with will be anything like the world we've all enjoyed.

[stillcool]

33. Well.....

I went to a few vigils last year, but have never gone to a major protest. Mostly because of geography, but financial and medical 'issues' apply. Does that mean, as the so-called liberal-minded people of DU would have you believe, that I am a fat lazy American, that doesn't know enough to care? I think too often people give general acerbic derisive responses instead of ones that require thought. I read, and try and learn as much as I can digest about what's going on...just to be a conduit for truth. My part in this is to stop contributing to the madness. Those are choices that may not seem like much, but they are choices that are in my power to make. Grow more, waste less, buy nothing that contributes to waste, ride my bike, walk, feed my mind....while we're waiting in this hallway, for a door to open... or the house to blow up.

[Minnesota Libra]

36. YOU WIN!!!!!!! For the most balanced and down to earth response..........

....I've read so far and yet one that applies to many. The medical and physical limitations you referred to definitely apply to me and yet trying to explain that to some here is like talking to a wall.

The people I had coffee with today are some of the most educated and most well-informed people I've ever had the pleasure of knowing. Some made our history by living its horrors, others changed our history by demonstrating and being very visible, and yet others as you say changed history by being well-informed and passing on that information.

Yes, I wish there were demonstrations every day in every city but at the same time I have to honor those who, for whatever reason can't or don't, demonstrate.

The bottom line with me is that I'm truly concerned that our entire country seems to be so beaten down and depressed that they no longer see demonstrations, letters to the editor, etc., as as hopeful avenue for change.

[stillcool]

40. well...they say the only thing constant...

is change itself...when ever I feel totally disgusted, and incapable of seeing hope, I change the channel. The slightest change in my perception can make a world of difference, and there is so much in life that is inspiring.

[bleever]

37. I've struggled with this with my brother.

We're very close (born less than a year apart) and have very similar senses of humor and ways of perceiving people and their interactions.

But I'm more much of a voracious info-vac when it comes to politics, like many on DU, I suppose. Especially since the 2000 election.

So I know so much more about what's going on. Four years ago I was the one playing Chicken Little about how we were headed into an illegal and disastrous war for reasons having nothing to do with a military threat from a man who had been reduced, essentially, to the sheriff of Baghdad, while my brother was thinking about terrorism and his children and how we couldn't let Saddam continue to pose a grave threat to our country.

Now, he's really worried. Really, really worried. He thinks that * and his party control everything, and that there's nothing anyone can do. He also thinks that no one is even trying, it's so hopeless. And I'm the one trying to tell him that I'm very encouraged by the legions of people now working on election fraud from our perspective of making sure everyone votes, and everyone's vote is counted. I try to explain about how Rove is already on the run from a justice that will indeed catch up with him. I tell him of my deep and abiding belief that American democracy is stronger than this neocon takeover, and that a year from now I want him to hold me to my promise.

And what I just realized reading your post, and considering it, is that you have to see the apathy and/or despair of most people within this context: the flock relies on the ones with the strongest wings, but they all have the strength to make the journey.

Some people, like DUers, are way out front on being informed, on being active and involved, and on doing whatever thing small or large they can to reclaim democracy. These folks, to varying degrees, naturally pick up the task of beating into the wind and finding the airstream pointing to a distant destination. Some people, with no less intelligence and compassion than us, don't have a mind for politics, or are too busy with their families and jobs to doubt the newspapers when they lie, or to have a sense that they can do anything about it when they tell the truth. These good people return the trust of their more politically-informed cohorts by following, sometimes gradually and grudgingly, in the direction that ends up being "forward".

So I've gained a little peace, in thinking that it's okay if not everyone knows what's really happening, as long as that segment of us who gravitate towards being active is strong and healthy, and continues beating into the wind, forward.

[marions ghost]

43. wise words

and I like your bird flock analogy. Yes, not everybody has to be out in front in this. Some can just follow in the slipstream.

The way I've always looked at it is that some are born to get in the trenches and fight, while others are more inclined to withdraw immediately when depressed and disheartened. We should not judge those who don't have the fighting instinct too harshly, although it's easy to feel betrayed by them.

Half the people in this country have developed a downtrodden mentality IMO. When you get in this state there is a loss of positive viualization. It is hard to imagine being able to overcome anything. The Powers That Be love to have masses of people in such a powerless position.

So I don't think it's ignorance of what's going on as much as a deliberate turning away or denial because of emotional responses to stress.

[kestrel91316]

39. If the Bush administration and Washington want to ignore us much

longer, they are going to want to make sure we can't own or possess any weapons. Ditto pitchforks and torches. Eventually it won't be safe for those criminals to show up to "work".

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

42. Because most Americans still are too comfortable to be in the street.

They have a job, and their kid isn't going to be drafted. THAT's the bottom line.

Even the loss of freedom can EASILY be rationalized as long as it's not you or your family in Gitmo or whereever.

The illegal immigrants? Threaten to criminalize them and deport them, and you get millions in the street overnight.

They have "skin in the game".

[Minnesota Libra]

46. Maybe you're right, maybe it's a question of who has the most.......

.....to loose being the most active. If that is the case I hope the issue that affects every American very directly comes up soon and then let's start changing things.

[marions ghost]

44. I think you are right

this is a case of mass depression. And when people become depressed they often withdraw and lose the ability to act. They feel powerless. They have lost a sense of trust. They get a "whipped dog" attitude. People react differently to abuse. Some of us have no problem being "out in the streets" (physically or virtually) --and others are very afraid of that kind of commitment and vulnerability.

This should tell those of us -who are not yet demoralized -how important it is to remain steadfast on our course, reach out to others like us, and not be suckered into that "you can't do anything about it" trap. It's only a failure of vision. And we must forgive others for this. We KNOW the snowball is rolling and picking up steam now. They will see.

Thanks for your post.

[Minnesota Libra]

45. I hope you are right - I just want people to wake up - I'm tired of......

.....The White House Idiot and his cohorts getting away with everything.