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SammyBlue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-30-06 04:43 PM
Original message
FREEPER SMACK DOWN ALERT!!!!
It took place in one of my Teacher Certification classes I started after getting my Bachelor's. I'm going to a Master's Degree along with my cert in two seperate programs. The state this is taking place in is Arizona. . .the city of Tucson.

Here is the instructor's internet posting subject:

Society/schools often use negative means to shape desired behavior. How has your behavior been shaped by parents, teachers, friends, supervisors, and others? Do you believe schools tend towards more positive or negative methods to encourage compliance? Support your opinion with reasons why you believe the method you selected is used more often.


Here was my initial response:
I will divide this into parts, since this is a multilevel question:

How has your behavior been shaped by parents, teachers, friends, supervisors, and others?

Parents: My parents taught my my morals and ethics, to question authority, speak my mind and never be afraid to dissent when I believe I am right. As such, my parents shaped me into a free thinking moralist. I have never been in trouble with the law, never done anything shady and have a strong faith in my religion.

Teachers: These people hid behind the "it's policy" defense whenever they did something questionable. I would counter with "that didn't work for the Nazis, why should it work for you?" They wouldn't respond. Because of teacher's favoritism, insults and denial of my rights, I learned to despise teachers.

Friends: I rejected alot of my friends worldview and their rebellions. They were good to hang out with, but the fear of getting in trouble that may parents raised me with kept me from going along with my friends stupidity.

Supervisors: Being a "free thinker," I have had alot of problems with supervisors who followed the attitudes "It's my way or the highway because I am the boss." This was part of the reason I went into business for myself.

Others: Administrators made my life in school a living misery. I was almost suspended when I was post-op for a fight I was apparently in. I was almost expelled for refusing to stand for the pledge. The administration did nothing to stop the anti-semetism that was directed at me in HS. The administrations of my schools did little to impress me as little more than robots with no thought, empathy, compassion or intelligence. I developed the idea "those who can, do. Those who can't do, teach. Those who can't teach become administrators." Which is funny because I will be an administrator when I finish my Master's Degree.

Do you believe schools tend towards more positive or negative methods to encourage compliance? Support your opinion with reasons why you believe the method you selected is used more often.

School use threats, intimidation and heavy handedness in ensure compliance. My brother's HS will with-hold the diploma from graduating seniors if the senior does not complete community service if the student is removed from graduation. The students and parents are under threat of removal if they don't dress correctly, act correctly and walk correctly. The parents will be removed if they applaud during the ceremony. This is insane. Administrators have turned schools into prisons. Anyone who feels this is good should not be in or going into education.

Earlier this week, the prinicpal of one school ordered that if students participated in the nationwide "day of silence" anti-gay harassment day, then those students will be marked off on their grades. What does that prove? How much of a bully the principal can be because he's ex-military and the military openly discriminiates against gays? This is what schools have become.


A rather good student posted this as a response:
Based on your school history and what you have put forth, I am interested to know what your motivation is to teach now. I know in my district (TUSD) there are so many rules, regulations, standards, etc. that we have to put up with. Can you be comfortable with that conformity? I'm not trying to be argumentative. I'm just curious to know your thought process about your decision to teach, based on the attitudes in your note. If I had those experiences, I would not want to get near the classroom.


In which I (SAMMYBLUE) responded:
I agree. . .the fact that I am doing this surprises even me. . .but the way I figure it. . .if one child can be prevented from being railroaded by a school district by what I have to say and teach, I am happy.

If one student develops a social conscience through my history and government classes, I am successful.

And, as for TUSD, you people have to sign a loyalty oath as a condition of employment! What kind of 1950s McCarthyistic paranoia right wing fascism is that??? How can the staff and faculty deal with that? I wouldn't.


Now, the Freeptard chimes in:
The only reason you can choose to NOT stand for the pledge and have a non-conforming view about society is because you live in America. IF you do not like what our society
offers, leave. Go live in a third world oppressed nation with no rights at all to speak against the government and when you do, you die.

With regard to what happened at your school earlier this week-though students have the right to protest, how do we as administrators know who is honestly protesting and who is just going along for the ride because our country allows them that freedom?


In which I respond with this:
On your first point: I am not even going to dignify that with a response. You live in your little hate filled sesspool, I'll try to change things. It must be nice to be the ultimate judge of what is Americanism or not! And, you're wrong. . .the only reason I have refuse to stand for the pledge is because of 6 Supreme Court Justices in 1943. Do some research before you belch your platitudes at me. Because you have no clue of what you talk about.

Second. . .why should I live? You, and your ilk, spent 8 years whining about Bill Clinton, but I didn't see my side say "America, love it or leave it." You don't deserve to teach, you shouldn't teach and you shouldn't try to mold young minds, because to do that, you must produce that you have one.

Third. You don't. . .unfortunately, the 1st amendment doesn't make distinctions, and neither will I when I finish my Master's of Educational Leadership.

You missive lacked any type of logic or intelligence. Go to www.freerepublic.com and post and wax idiotically. I have no time, patience or desire to argue with a right winger like you.


Who wants to take best that the Freeper goes and whines to the Instructor?

I expect the instructor to tell me to be nice or some shit like that.
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NMDemDist2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-30-06 04:48 PM
Response to Original message
1. "cesspool"
not sesspool. gotta watch for spelling errors there......
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brentspeak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-30-06 04:52 PM
Response to Original message
2. Your essay responses were things I myself would take exception with
Edited on Sun Apr-30-06 04:54 PM by brentspeak
I wouldn't suggest, as did the person you claimed is a Freeper, that you should "leave" the country. The "love it or leave it" taunt is immature.

Nevertheless, your essay doesn't make sense. Calling teachers "Nazis" is laughable, calling your friends "stupid" arrogant, not taking the pledge as some kind of nebulous "protest" annoying.
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SammyBlue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-30-06 04:56 PM
Response to Reply #2
6. Okay.
The nazi comment was made when I was 15 years old.

If you knew my friends (most were dopehead), they were stupid in an adult's eyes.

Justifying my not standing for the pledge is not necessary. West Virginia V. Barnette says I have the right not to stand for no reason.

However, my reason was I believe the pledge is a pack of lies. This isn't a unitied country (it is divided in every way), there isn't liberty and justice for all (well, if you can afford it). I do not believe Under G-d should be in and I AM NOT GOING TO PLEDGE MY LOYALTY TO A FLAG!!! The constitution yes, the flag.
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ray of light Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-30-06 05:00 PM
Response to Reply #2
9. actually, this person's essy isn't as bad as you're implying.
Though I wouldn't call the teacher a Nazi, I would say that there are some teachers who are on a power trip. Actually I've seen too many of those! But they're not Nazi's in the literal sense of the word. But frankly, the use of the word "nazi" to imply a dictator is one of those expressions I've heard often enough when dealing with harsh, narrowminded, dictator like indifference to others.

The not taking the pledge as a protest is a nonissue for you to bring up. Clearly, this person is expressing his opinion about the pledge and has a right to protest it. Yes, the pledge is a form of indoctrination similar to communist indoctrination; however, is it worthy of protest? Well, I wouldn't. But that is me and my choice.
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Ecumenist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-30-06 04:52 PM
Response to Original message
3. Bravo, Sammyblue!!!
:hi: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause:


That idiot came to a gunfight with an exacto knife and a rock. They are unable to support their positions with well thought, intelligent and cogent points. Everything they say is jingoistic and seems like a group of automatons regurgitating preprogrammed talking points. Remember the very apt axiom---"garbage in, garbage out"
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Warpy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-30-06 04:54 PM
Response to Original message
4. B. F. Skinner, the behavioral psychologist whose groundbreaking
Edited on Sun Apr-30-06 04:56 PM by Warpy
work with pigeons, levers and food pellets has saved me from gambling, determined through his work with several species including humans that reward works far better than punishment does and that intermittent reward is the most effective strategy of all.

It's amazing that educators and managers are never taught this, that they sit though hours and hours of propaganda without learning a thing about how to manage employees and get what they want from their workforces. Instead, they all arrive at their jobs unprepared and engage in the bullying and intimidation they experienced in school because it's the only behavioral pattern they have.

I've been both boss and employee. B.F. Skinner's stuff works well. Employees would go the extra mile, often without being asked, if they knew reward was possible. The only person I ever had to fire had a drinking problem.

It's time for pedagogues and middle managers alike to pick up on this stuff.

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niyad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-30-06 05:11 PM
Response to Reply #4
15. even before I read skinner, I had a staff of high school students in my
first managerial position (I managed a theatre at that time) I guess I must have treated them pretty well, because these kids would actually break a friday night date if I needed them.

In any of my managerial positions, I have always treated my employees with respect and consideration, and have never been disappointed. amazing how that works, don't you think?
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Gabi Hayes Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-30-06 05:14 PM
Response to Reply #4
17. see, there's a big problem with positive reinforcement: it takes
a long time, too much time for most teachers to effectively implement

could go on and on about this, but it's really difficult to do, especially when one gets beyond elementary level, when you have forty minutes a day, or less, to try to manage behaviors

can't disagree with experimental data on this, but it's a long way from the lab to the classroom
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niyad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-30-06 05:20 PM
Response to Reply #17
20. isn't that just a cop-out? seriously, I am not trying to be difficutl
here, but I get tired of hearing that positive thinking, positive energy, positive reinforcement, just takes too long.

tiny little example: I came home this afternoon to discover that several of the neighborhood children were screaming, carrying on to the point that you could hear them for several blocks. Nobody, apparently, had been either able or willing to do anything about it. I went to them, explained softly that I had a headache, and that I would greatly appreciate it if they could please quiet down. they apologized, and haven't heard a sound since, except when they came up to me as I was cutting some flowers, to ask if I knew anybody who needed yard work done. took no time or effort on my part, just a moment of kindness and politeness.
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Warpy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-30-06 06:45 PM
Response to Reply #17
23. Um, it takes under 2 seconds to pay a kid a compliment
and that means the louts in the back of the room who are trying to prove how funny they are.

I had teachers who knew how to do this. I learned from them. I had teachers who went the yelling, bullying and threat route. I tuned out and read library books in their classes. They were so busy establishing the pecking order they had nothing to teach.
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-01-06 11:23 AM
Response to Reply #4
27. Skinner also locked his kid in a box
You are wrong - we do study Skinner and many other behavioral psychologists in teacher prep programs. But Skinner doesn't carry much weight with most teachers. Something about putting his kid in a box (which would get him arrested for cruelty to a child today) is just a tad unsettling.
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mike_c Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-30-06 04:56 PM
Response to Original message
5. now be nice to the poor freeper....
Edited on Sun Apr-30-06 04:57 PM by mike_c
:rofl:

With regard to what happened at your school earlier this week-though students have the right to protest, how do we as administrators know who is honestly protesting and who is just going along for the ride because our country allows them that freedom?


What difference does it make? That's what makes it a right. Administrators don't need to know anything about a protest except that students have a right to do it. What business of this yahoo is it to question anyone's motives for exercising their rights?
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DS1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-30-06 04:57 PM
Response to Original message
7. riddled with typos
:hide:
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Robbie Michaels Donating Member (612 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-30-06 05:09 PM
Response to Reply #7
12. That's not a problem :-)
Sammyblue did the freeper a favor by explaining his/her (honestly, I don't know what gender Sammyblue is) views in a language that anyone posting at Free Republic can easily understand.
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SammyBlue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-30-06 05:20 PM
Response to Reply #12
19. Sammyblue is 100% male last time I went to the bathroom.
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Robbie Michaels Donating Member (612 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-30-06 05:25 PM
Response to Reply #19
22. Thanks for clarifying that
Great post!
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Media_Lies_Daily Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-30-06 05:10 PM
Response to Reply #7
14. Does that make what he wrote any less relevant?
IMHO, it's nice to be able to spell every word correctly, and I personally try to do that with every post. But, in the heat of battle, spelling tends to take second place behind the points you're trying to make.
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Gabi Hayes Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-30-06 05:16 PM
Response to Reply #14
18. oh, you! that reminds me of colbert...everything does today.
recall what he said about spellcheck and the media?

that was one of my favorite lines.

that's the ONLY check today's fourth estate has on our runaway fascists: SPELLcheck!

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Media_Lies_Daily Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-30-06 05:23 PM
Response to Reply #18
21. I honestly didn't make that association, but thanks anyway! :-)
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niyad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-30-06 05:00 PM
Response to Original message
8. self-delete
Edited on Sun Apr-30-06 05:02 PM by niyad
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The Doctor. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-30-06 05:02 PM
Response to Original message
10. Suggestion....
If you plan on responding to something, you probably don't want to announce that you will not dignify that something with a response before doing so.
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Robbie Michaels Donating Member (612 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-30-06 05:06 PM
Response to Original message
11. I'd rather have good taste than good grammar
Great post SammyBlue! :toast: :party:
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Tsiyu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-30-06 05:10 PM
Response to Original message
13. Nice smackdown
:yourock:

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Gabi Hayes Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-30-06 05:12 PM
Response to Original message
16. great stuff! I work in a jr. high, and never say the pledge. some
people ask why, and I tell them it's still a free country, isn't it?

when kids ask me, I tell them it's a personal decision, and they can make up their own minds

I used to run our TV studio, and for three years had to record kids saying the pledge EVERY stinking day; it really got to me
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ShortnFiery Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-01-06 10:40 AM
Response to Original message
24. Rock On!
:yourock: :applause:
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-01-06 11:01 AM
Response to Original message
25. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
stop the bleeding Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-01-06 11:20 AM
Response to Reply #25
26. re-explain please, I am too stupid to figure out what you are trying to
say.
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treestar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-01-06 11:34 AM
Response to Reply #25
28. The older I get, the more I realize that giving in to them just makes
them meaner. The left has been polite for 30 years and it hasn't helped one bit, just made the mean-ass right think that means they're winning so they get meaner.

It is time to take the gloves off.
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bleedingheart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-01-06 01:04 PM
Response to Reply #25
29. a lot of "good germans" thought that as well
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LetsGoMurphys Donating Member (564 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-01-06 01:15 PM
Response to Original message
30. Love it or leave it...
one of the scariest things I have ever heard. So now we have to keep our opinions to ourself or else. I received an email backing this notion of love it or leave it. I am going to save it for when we are in control again and send it right back to the people who sent it to me. Even though I won't believe what it says, it will surely piss them off. Facists.
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