What's the Democrat plan for illegal immigration?

[corporate_mike]

We have a perfect opportunity to step forward with a PLAN.

What is our PLAN?

[porphyrian]

1. The Democratic plan, you mean? - n/t

[displacedtexan]

4. Nice catch, porphyrian!

[stepnw1f]

7. Excellent Catch

Here's our DEMOCRATIC PLAN. We will throw all Bush supporters out of the country and give their jobs to more respectable, intelligent people already citizens, then we'll give our jobs to the immigrants.

In short, we throw your asses out of the country since you hate it so much, and since you only care about yourselves and nobody else in this country. How's that?

[Humor_In_Cuneiform]

99. Vs. the Republic plan? n/t

[displacedtexan]

2. Pretty much the one Bush* stole from Kennedy.

http://kennedy.senate.gov/~kennedy/statements/06/04/2006404556.html

[mdmc]

5. yup. I like the Senate plan

it works for me.

[FreakinDJ]

10. Needs tougher Employer sanctions

Why are our legislature and senate tip toeing around the issue the Employers are cheating the system just as much if not more then the illegal workers them selves

[mdmc]

16. The corporate party does the bidding of business

It has two wings, the GOP and the DLC.

[ProfessorGAC]

17. Ding! Ding! Ding! Ding!

That's the way to put teeth into this reform. $500k per offense. The risk/reward of saving $5k by risking a $500k fine per illegally hired worker will put a stop to it in a big hurry. The fines are too weak now. The sanctions must be MUCH tougher.

Aren't these the same geniuses who said the way to win the war on drugs was to target DEMAND! Well? In this case, they would actually be correct.
The Professor

[FreakinDJ]

18. Fines should be paid directly to social programs

To make up for the money they have been cheated out of

Honestly I sent a fax to Kennedy's office yesterday and I told him he is the only one making sense on this issue but in NO UNCERTAIN TERMs could I support any legislation without Tough Employer Sanctions

[Touchdown]

91. 2 years in jail minimum, per offense.

$550k fines would just be ledgered in as the cost of doing business. Jail time is a little harder to put on the balance sheet.

[ProfessorGAC]

102. Not Sure I Agree

Look if you have a job that you can pay someone $6 an hour for, but instead can hire and illegal for $3/hr. You're saving $3 per hour and the 11% of added payroll taxes. So, you're saving $3.66 per hour.

Someone working 2600 hours per year (50 hour weeks) would only save you about $9k over doing it right. You'd have to get away with it for 55 years to cover the cost of getting caught ONCE!!!!

The risk is no longer even close to being worth the reward. Risking a half million to save 9 grand is just stupid. Business people know this. Today, the risks are lower than the reward. Of course, they're not going to obey the law. Make the risks 25 times greater and you'll get their attention, even without jail time.
The Professor

[Touchdown]

105. But...you send Tyson Food's CEO to jail for 5 years

...and everybody else takes notice.

[frankly_fedup2]

95. No one needs a plan. If the laws were followed, there wouldn't be a

problem with illegals. When people quit hiring them for slave labor, they won't come here.

Wonder what the GOP plan was? Allow people to continue to break the law.

Oh yeah, I'm familiar with this type of theory. The Bush/Cheney Theory. Make money no matter how many people die. Make sure the rich stay rich (therefore allowing illegals to come in and work their subcontracting, then when payday comes, they tell them to go F*** themselves. (Cheney isn't over that one yet).

Think about it, especially in New Orleans. Of course, the companies associated with Halliburton already had the contracts (same no bids), they subcontract the work out, then that company subcontracts out to a smaller company that hires illegals. Say they get over 100 men to do a job, all illegals. They work them 60-80 hours for one week and get the job done. Payday comes . . . no payday for the illegals, the ones who have done the work. Who are they going to complain to? Who are they going to file a complaint with. This is the Republicans "Hopeful" continuation of the illegal immigrant problem. Work them hard enough and long enough and don't pay them until they go home.

Sounds like a Cheney/Rumsfield plan to me. More then 3 steps in the details and with Dumbya's ADD, he cannot keep up with all that.

Pathetic bunch of liars.

[Stinky The Clown]

3. "ic"

......

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

73. I find it delicious when all that hard-worked-upon Doublespeak training

comes back to bite the speaker in the ass. :rofl:

[bryant69]

6. Well if you check out the Democratic Party Website.

There are a few hints.

"Criminalizing families and the work of clergy is not the way forward. A comprehensive and compassionate approach must protect all U.S. workers and their wages, prevent exploitation of immigrant workers, and offer immigrants who have earned it the opportunities and responsibilities of U.S. citizenship. The American people want change, not more of the same scape-goating and ineffective, piecemeal immigration reform Republicans are proposing." - Howard Dean http://www.democrats.org/a/2006/03/dean_comprehens.php

There's also this --> http://www.democrats.org/a/2006/05/immigration_-_t_1.php

I will say I don't think that the Democratic Party needs to put forward a comprehensive plan just now - we are the minority party. We can't enact our laws. Our role is, like it or not (and I don't like it), advisory - we do what we can to resist Republican screw ups.

Bryant
Check it out --> http://politicalcomment.blogspot.com

[NNN0LHI]

13. Thats hard work n/t

[kentuck]

8. It's a powderkeg issue...

I hope it doesn't blow up in their faces. Maybe they should just say nothing? :sarcasm:

[earthside]

12. That's Their Best Hope

We are heading into a terrible situation if the immigration problem is not dealt with ... and soon.

Our environment in the U.S. simply cannot sustain projections of another 5 million people plus their birthrate and our birthrate adding to our 300 million current population in the next ten years.

Have you noticed the sprawl around all of our major metropolitan areas? Have you considered how much agricultural land is being taken out of production so that new housing can be built?

Besides the impact on wages and benefits for working class Americans, if we don't stop this influx of population, we're going to end up an environmental basket case in a very few years.

Democrats don't even mention this aspect of the illegal immigration problem.

So, the best thing for them is just keep quiet, because they are really wrong on this issue.

[billybob537]

9. Here's my plan

Allow the Republicans to devide thier party. Every time Immigration slips from the news remind them of the disaster. "The speech was a failure. Like everything else in his life." Just let them run to ground on this. It's a true LOSE LOSE proposition for Republicans. They're such good dividers.
Just keep Immigration in the news until Nov.

[FreakinDJ]

11. Too much immigration will end Social programs

I knew the Bush amnesty plan had a Repuke spin to it. With a wink and a nod they realize this will be the straw that breaks the camels back of the New Deal.

Amnesty and Continued Low Skill Immigration Will Substantially Raise Welfare Costs and Poverty

An immigration plan proposed by Senators Mel Martinez (R-FL) and Chuck Hagel (R-NE) would provide amnesty to 9 to 10 million illegal immigrants and put them on a path to citizenship. Once these individuals become citizens, the net additional cost to the federal government of benefits for these individuals will be around $16 billion per year. Further, once an illegal immigrant becomes a citizen, he has the right to bring his parents to live in the U.S. The parents, in turn, may become citizens. The long-term cost of government benefits to the parents of 10 million recipients of amnesty could be $30 billion per year or more. In the long run, the Hagel/Martinez bill, if enacted, would be the largest expansion of the welfare state in 35 years.

The education levels of illegal aliens are lower than those of legal immigrants. Half of all adult illegal immigrants lack a high school degree.<10> Among Latin American and Mexican immigrants, 60 percent lack a high school degree and only 7 percent have a college degree. By contrast, among native-born workers in the U.S., only 6 percent have failed to complete high school degrees and nearly a third have a college degree.

Decline in Immigrant Wages

Over the last 40 years the education level of new immigrants has fallen relative to the native population. As the relative education levels of immigrants have declined, so has their earning capacity compared to the general U.S. population. Immigrants arriving in the U.S. around 1960 had wages, at the time of entry, that were just 13 percent less than natives’. In 1965, the nation’s immigration law was dramatically changed, and from 1990 on, illegal immigration surged. The result was a decline in the relative skill levels of new immigrants. By 1998, new immigrants had an average entry wage that was 34 percent less than natives’.<12> Because of their lower education levels, illegal immigrants’ wages would have been even lower.
http://www.heritage.org/Research/Immigration/bg1936.cfm

Sure greedy Corporate America gets an endless supply of cheap labor while at the same time they will be able to put an end to Social programs - works for them

[corporate_mike]

14. Rats support illegal immigration because their corporate donors profit

from cheap labor.

[FreakinDJ]

15. Only obvious by Employers being given a Free Pass

Most ridiculous thing I’ve ever heard. Frist wanted to make 11 million people felons while they ignored the tax cheating of the Employers

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

30. Who are the "rats?"

I've seen that frequently used as a derisive reference to a particular subset of American politicians. I forget exactly who.

[Marr]

69. Yeah really -what's with all this umm... foreign lingo, anyway?

I don't mean to step outside the forum rules or anything, but I think I smell something.

[Bridget Burke]

24. (Extreme) Right as always--the word from the Heritage Foundation!

Heritage Foundation’s mission is “to formulate and promote conservative public policies based on the principles of free enterprise, limited government, individual freedom, traditional American values, and a strong national defense.”

* HF is the biggest right wing conservative think tank in Washington, DC.

* HF researches, publishes, lectures on, and markets conservative public policy....

* HF takes credit for much of President Bush’s policy, both domestic and foreign, referring to Bush’s policies as “straight out of the Heritage play book.”

* Supports faith-based initiatives, school vouchers, ban on abortion, overturning affirmative action programs.

www.pfaw.org/pfaw/general/default.aspx?oid=4287

I used PFAW rather than Rightweb because I'm tired of using the same source to identify Right Wing sources. But Rightweb also has some things to say.

http://rightweb.irc-online.org/profile/1477

[FreakinDJ]

33. That is all I could find in a google search

BTW the links you posted didn't open for me

[Bridget Burke]

34. The links work fine for me.....

Here's the homepage for PFAW: www.pfaw.org/pfaw/general/

And for Right Web: http://rightweb.irc-online.org/

Hope you can get in. Acquaintance with these sites might help you find information sources that will NOT be viewed with scorn.

[FreakinDJ]

37. Those worked - but do you have more accurate numbers

on the burden placed on social programs

Because it is a real issue in the debate. Remember prop 167 in the 90s in California. The act was over whelmingly approved to deny all illegal immigrants access to public services. There is little doubt they do stress the system and I believe this is all about driving the final nail in the coffin of our social programs while providing corporate america with cheap labor

[Bridget Burke]

45. Proposition 187?

You mean the proposition denying the undocumented social services, health care, and public education?

* The proposition called "the last gasp of white America in California"?

* The proposition overturned in Court?

* The proposition that ensured California's Hispanic voters would be Democrats?

If you want to present "facts"--do your own homework.

[kitp]

19. Again, I throw wrench

Early last year I told my friends that the imaginary issue the Repubs would invent for the 2006 elections would be immigration. They looked at me as if I were crazy. What immigration problem, said they? We haven't heard anything about it.
I told them to watch. The Repubs would begin talking about the horrible immigration problem we have, it would relate to security and it's solution would involve the military. All strong "I'm your protector" crap that BushCo is so good at dealing out.
No one believed me. Immigration wasn't anywhere in the mix.
I stood by my statement. Just like gay marriage was the invented issue in '04, immigation would be the invented issue of '06. And, I predicted, the Dems would do the same idiotic thing with immigration that they did with gay marriage. That is, they would agree with the Repubs that the problem was real, even though it wasn't. They would agree with all of the talking points of the repubs but disagree with the methods. They would offer no concrete plan to 'solve' the 'issue' and they would look weak and indecisive.

So, now we see that the Repubs have again successfully created a phoney issue to dominate the election debates. Immigration, its all over the news. No one is asking "are we in danger" of course, because we are not. Everyone is asking "how much danger are we in".
And again the Dems have fallen right in line, almost as if coached by the Repub strategists. All Dems agree that immigration is a problem. I mean, if BushCo says it is, then it must be. All Dems agree that we must have more secure borders. All Dems agree that the illegal immigrants are a problem and this law-breaking needs to cease. Dean even went on TDS last night and said "we are a nation of laws" just as if he were a BushCo supporter in 2000 (Rule of Law, Rule of Law...).

First, there is NO immigration problem. Oh, there are important issues having to do with immigration, the most important is that we are allowing corporations to create pseudo-feudilism and generate large profits from quasi-slaves. Also, our immigration policies are extremely racist and shameful. But the idea that there is some horrid law-breaking swarm of little brown people from the evil countries down south who are invading us and Destroying America is just plain bullshit. Total bullshit. Complete BullShit!

Look at the right-wing attitude about this - get guns, go to the border and kill the brown mothers. Right, exactly what is the problem here? Migrant workers or lunatic racist vigilantes?

So, how do I think the Dems should deal with this issue? There are several ways. I stated in another thread that they should call the Prez on his hypocrisy first and foremost. Bush says we need more guards at the border. How does this jibe with his cutting almost 10,000 border patrol last year? Was that a mistake? Was he wrong then and right now or right then and wrong now.
Next, they should point out that he has championed himself, and a whole lot of really restrictive legislation, on the argument that he is protecting us. If the border is in such bad shape, if we are in such danger, just what the hell has he been doing for the last 5 years? Is he admitting that he is a failure in this regard? That the Dept of Homeland Security has completely failed in its mission?
Bush has talked about unfettering businesses too long crippled by government oversite. As these illegal immigrants are being hired by these unfettered businesses, is he now saying that removing regulations is wrong? Is he admitting that unrestrained capitalism is a bad thing? Is he stating that when business are left to seek profit without other considerations they will naturally break laws, treat people poorly and put America in danger just for the almighty dollar?
If not, then why is he arguing that the government should intervene in this problem, can't the market work all this out themselves? Isn't he interfering in the free market by having the federal government get involved in the relationship between these employers and their employees?

Then the Dems should bear down on the racist aspect of BushCo's immigration problem. Why are all of the illegal immigrants he's so worried about brown? Why does BushCo hate and fear our brethren to the south?

Finally, we should embrace these immigrants, both legal and illegal. Quote the Statue of Liberty.

Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breath free.
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me.
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!

We are a country of immigrants. We have grown great because of immigrants. We are the melting pot, the most idiverse of cultures, the richest nation because we are from everywhere and we are everyone. These people are our brothers, our sisters, our parents and our children. Our cousins and ancestors. We do not fear them, we do not hate them. We are them.
We must find a way to embrace them, to bring them into the great diversity that is the United States. They are not criminals, they are not anarchist infiltrators, they are not the evil unwashed bent on destroying our great nation. They are here to be a part of our great nation.
The only immigration problem we have in the United States is that racist, fear-mongering vigilatnes would slaughter these people, that our president, having failed to protect us against everything else, is reforming himself as our protector against people who mean us no harm.

This is a totally invented issue and should be treated as such. But no, the Dem 'plan' to deal with the 'problem' of immigration.
And we wonder why we keep losing elections...

[FreakinDJ]

20. Failed logic

We had the chance to invoke Human rights changes through out the world and squandered it. If we open the borders as you suggest we would be a 3rd world country in no time subjected to the massive human rights violations these people our attempting to escape.

But YES I have been screaming WEDGE ISSUE for over 6 months now

[kitp]

25. didn't say that

I never said open the borders, which as far as I can tell are pretty open already. I said address the racist aspects of our current immigration laws and the current debate. Force BushCo into acknowledging their hypocrisy.
We do need sane immigration laws. However, given the enormous amount of money we spend on the military, I think we can afford a few more million people without a real problem.

You are right, this is a wedge issue. However, in usual BushCo fashion, it is framed as a security issue. If the Dems agree with all of the Repub points, but disagree with methods, the voters are left with nothing but the question 'who is tougher on security, the Dems or the Repubs'. Because we don't question the Repub failure to protect against the alleged problem, because we don't challange that it is not a security problem but a social problem, we lose.

As to the 'if we open the borders' statement, just exactly what was said about the Irish, the Eastern Europeans, the Jews, the Arabs, the Chinese... it is a variant on the old old racist dialog. They are bad, we are in danger, kill them.

[FreakinDJ]

31. 1 problem I have with the current influx

Why just South America and Mexico

What exclusive right to they have to unhindered access to the promised land.

Now before you go off and call me racist hear me out.

We have catered to Mexican immigration for decades and it has produced diffinitly failed results. Mexico abuses its people is why they come here. If we don't cater to them then perhaps those same people could envoke changes in their own country.

There are plenty of countries and people world wide that would love the chance to come here, respect the laws and just be given a chance.

I believe Kennedy's bill is a sane approach that is why it is the basis for the current bill now being discussed. However I believe strongly in needs tougher employment sanctions and YES the immigrants needs to be screened for feloney convictions

[kitp]

42. some truth

Yes, many immigrants enter because of horrid conditions south of the border. However, if that is our debate, we need to look at our involvement in those governments south of the border. How much of the suffering is because of our actions? How strongly do we support socialist governments who would help their own people? How do the IMF, World Bank, and WTO fit into the suffering and is our government supporting these harmful activities or opposing it?

Look, the CIA killed the elected leader of Iran in '53 and installed a brutal dicator. Using this let them evoke changes in their own country attitude we would have applauded the revolution. Instead, Iran became a hated enemy (who we are about to nuke). What exactly is BushCo's problem with Chavez? Wouldn't Chavez-style governments remove that need to flee?

You make a point, but if that is to be our debate, we need to point out that the current leaders are helping to create the problem, and again, by telling those who are fleeing that they need to stay in their own country and work things out on their own, we are blaming the vicitms, and it is naive as it ignores our complicity in their suffering.

[FreakinDJ]

47. Your right on that premise

We have encouraged countries to exploit their workers.

We have failed to attach Human rights conditions and workers rights condition to the trade treaties we enter into. So yes we have not helped the problem that encourage them to come here illegally.

But at the same time those same forces have harmed the working class of this country and by No means are they going to support any political party that further suppresses their wages while simultaneously mandating they pay social programs burden by corporate america's greed for cheap labor

That is where your position falls apart and divides the party

[kitp]

70. What the f?

We should support these forces because they are politically opposed to us? What? The party is full-on behind these forces, accepting the issue, not challanging the corruption of money. Which part of the party do you think I am working with to divide from the other part?

[High Plains]

94. Why Mexico? Well, duh.

Why Mexico? It might have something to do with the fact that we share a 2000 mile border, that they are our next door neighbors, and that Mexicans (whether Mexican Mexicans or Mexican Americans) have lived on both sides of that imaginary line in the desert for hundreds of years.

Yes, I would go so far as to say there is a special relationship.

What is needed is a worker visa program that recognizes the US economy depends to some degree on immigrant labor and provides full rights for those workers.

I am not part of the punishist posse. Corporate wrongdoers like Tysons are one thing, but do we really want to fine Jerry's Landscaping $500,000 or throw the owner of the Mexicali Diner in prison for two years? Seems like a bit of overkill.

[kentuck]

21. Interesting but....

I don't know that the people of California would agree with you? And without California, Democrats do not fare well in elections. Just saying..

[FreakinDJ]

23. Go to any state with massive influx of immigrants

Ask them to what degree is illegal immigration being used to supress working class wages. LA has over a 25% pay gap compared to San Francisco. So NO people are not going to look at this the same

[kitp]

27. yes yes yes BUT

you are talking about social issues, wages, workers, employers, social services etc. Not a security/military issue This is the most important distinction that must be made. Either the Repubs have failed to protect us against a security risk or it is not a security issue!.
If the Repubs want to discuss social issues, okay. We've got plenty of ammo to show that they don't give a shit about workers at all. I'd love to see the immigration debate to be about the state of our economy and the failure of and unregulated marketplace. That would be a good debate. Not this fake security crap.
The issues you raise have been around for decades in various degrees and will be with us for a long time to come. The Repubs are framing this as if we have some invading army we need to attack right now!!! And that is crap crap crap.

[FreakinDJ]

35. Agreed

I was watch C-span yesterday and the senator from Texas brought up the Iran connection.

There is a different twist to the criminality thou. The Columbian Cartel uses the porus border to commit crimes. They send enforces who kill people and then go back across to escape prosecution. A number of these folks are serving time in our prisons now

[corporate_mike]

22. 12 million + undocumented people in our country is not a problem?????

wow

[porphyrian]

26. You didn't even notice them until the economy started tanking...

...and the corporate media decided to blame them instead of the horrendous failed policies of this piece of shit administration. There are more than a handful of slightly more important issues to focus on at the moment.

[kitp]

29. Thanks, you are absolutely correct

12 million plus undocumented immigrants is not, a problem. Not a security problem. Not an invasion problem.
The only problems that arise are social. This admin has trashed the American economy and has favored unrestrained capitalism against the interests of working people. If the debate were 'we can't feed the hungry becuase of these immigrants' okay. Then we can talk about how this adminstration isn't feeding the hungry regardless of the 12 million. I would love for the immigration debate to be on the completley failed social policies of BushCo.
But no, the Dems are accepting that this is a security issue, that we are in some danger, that we must act quickly. It's a losing position.

[FreakinDJ]

39. It was on C-span yesterday

Bush administration

2005 only 1 employer fined for hiring illegal undocumented workers
2004 only 3 employers fined for hiring illegal undocumented workers

Canm we say "free pass to cheat the tax code"

[FreakinDJ]

38. Many did notice before the economy tanking

You have to be dilusional to think they do not suppress working class wages. Why do you think the Repubs have allowed it to go on so long

[kitp]

40. not delusional

"They" do not depress working class wages. "They" being the immigrants. If by "They" you mean unregulated unfettered U.S. corporations and/or the Repubs in charge of the government, you are absolutely correct.
The immigrants are not the cause of lower wages, they are victims of it just as are the non-immigrants. Let's debate the failed conservative policies that are anti-worker and pro-corporation, rather than blame the victims.

[FreakinDJ]

41. Thats Horse shit and you know it

Its a fucking No-Brainer.

Do you think the employers would be breaking the law if it wasn't cheaper?

Do you think union membership would be down 2/3s if it had no effect

It is used to supress wages plain and simple

[kitp]

44. what is horse shit?

ABsolutley "It is used to supress wages plain and simple". But used by whom? Not by the immigrants, that was my point. By BushCo and their corporate buddies.

Let the debate be about that. Unrestrained capitalism. Corporations unfettered by regulation. The general anti-labor pro-business attitude of this administration.

But, don't blame the immigrants for this problem, they are it's vicitms, not it's perpetrators

[FreakinDJ]

50. They allowed it to happen

They allowed the border to remain a cake walk for so many years. They refused to prosecute employers who cheat the tax code and exploit the workers here illegally.

There by encouraging employers to use illegal immigrants to supress the wages of the working class americans.

You need to address this from the perspective of all americans other wise you divide the party

[kitp]

53. Yes, you are right

THEY - the corps, the repubs, the neocons, the new world orderers - YES, they ahve done all of this.

But don't blame it on the immigrants! They also suffer as do we. They and we have a common enemy.

[FreakinDJ]

57. I don't blame the immigrants

But any time anyone suggest some thing other then blankit anmesty we are racist.

Did you ever take into consideration many have no intention of staying here?

Many are sending money home to their family making payments on the house in Mexico

[kitp]

67. I never said that

When I was talking about racist attitudes, I was talking about the security/military aspect of this. I was talking about the overall immigration policy.
I never mentioned blanket amnesty.

[High Plains]

96. You are right. Many have no intention of staying here.

They are here to work. There are indeed jobs for them in this economy. Give 'em some damned work visas so they can have rights and not be exploited.

You make it sound like sending money home is a crime or something...

If you are concerned about the impact on wages (which seems to be limited to a single digit percentage drop in wages for non-high school graduates), you should be agitating for these workers to be organized, not criminalized.

[FreakinDJ]

107. Oh sure endless supply of cheap labor for Corp America

lets bring in all the people so they can work for 50% wages at jobs that Americans need so we can drive down the wages of the average American.

Capitolism unchecked is bad
Immigration unchecked is bad

can you grasp the concept here

[porphyrian]

43. I'm not delusional at all.

I'm fully aware of people blaming immigrants for failed economic practices, such as freezing minimum wage for a decade and allowing corporations to buy control of our government. That's been going on since the first immigrants killed the indigenous people and called this their land. Yes, they have an impact on local economies, but not the greatest impact. Not even in the top ten. It's just easier to blame the brownie than your employer when you're scared you might lose your own pathetic slave-wage job.

[patcox2]

46. I see you've never been underbid for a drywall contract.

you know nothing of the situation out there.

[kitp]

49. sure I have

Not underwall, but in my own arena.

My question is why are we bitching about the immigrants and not the economic policies that let this happen. The slave-wage immigrants are suffering under the same system you are suffering under. You and they have a common enemy.
Why are you accepting that enemies attempt to split you and the immigrants?

[FreakinDJ]

51. BULL SHIT

that is all I can say

Either you have a sophisticated deliberate philosophy designed to divide the democratic party or your living in a bubble

[Bridget Burke]

56. There's an UNsophisticated deliberate philosophy.....

designed to divide the Democratic Party.

But many of US are crying BULLSHIT.

[FreakinDJ]

59. Just wait and see

This issue will cancel out plame gate, nsa spying, and the Iraq war when voters go to the polls

[porphyrian]

62. You're contributing to this being true.

Why are you helping the fascists?

[FreakinDJ]

66. TRY again

if you haven't noticed gas is up to $3.50

You think they are not going to vote on their wallet

[porphyrian]

71. That has what to do with your support of republican propaganda?

If you really know so much about construction, then you also know that republicans in office are NEVER good for the construction business. They always fuck it up some how. So, why are you believing the bullshit they say that it's the immigrants' fault rather than the people who hire them?

[FreakinDJ]

106. You are the propaganda artist

WHERE can you point to 1 single post I've made saying it is the IMMIGRANTS and NOT the EMPLOYERS

I know this might be a difficult concept for you, but you should REALLY try reading before you engage you digital mouth so tightly around your foot

[kitp]

112. my confusion was because of

your response to post #49.

I had said:
My question is why are we bitching about the immigrants and not the economic policies that let this happen. The slave-wage immigrants are suffering under the same system you are suffering under. You and they have a common enemy.
Why are you accepting that enemies attempt to split you and the immigrants?

Your reply (post #51) was:

BULL SHIT

that is all I can say

Either you have a sophisticated deliberate philosophy designed to divide the democratic party or your living in a bubble


From that point on I wasn't sure exactly what you were saying. I'm still not sure what you meant by this. However, it sure seemed to be a disagreement with my contention that it is not the immigrants. After all, you did say BULL SHIT and accused me of dividing the democratic party.

[kitp]

65. I agree

That is it's entire purpose. That's why the Republicans invented it. That's why the news media are reporting it.

It is an invented issue to make Repubs look strong on defense and get the Dems to agree with the issue but squabble about the solution. The proper Dem response is to refuse to accept the basis premise of the issue. But we are not doing that.

Yes, invented issue to divert discussion from real issues. I completely agree.

[kitp]

61. Again, I'm confused

Exactly what are you referring to? I know of NO prominent democrats who are agreeing with me (that's my complaint) so how could I be dividing the Democratic party? There's no one on my side?

What I am trying to do is to divide the Democratic party from the Republican party. To get our party to stop agreeing with all of the bullshit meaningless idiotic invented issues the Republicans come up with.

So, exactly how am I dividing the Dems?

[FreakinDJ]

108. Democrats have long been Pro-Labor

OK ok they have not been delivering well in the resent past but this issue will bring out the labor vote stronger then the Religious vote of 04. Labor is a 20% block of high turn out voters.

Take that away from the Dem's and you have effectively divided the party

No I don't mean YOU the individual. If the party is divided it will be the fault of DEM leaders for not putting together a strong unified voice on the immigration issue.

and yes they need to listen to their constituency

[kitp]

111. hmmm...I disagree

Immigrants and laborers are both suffering under the same system. They are fellow victims. To divide them is to weaken the cause, not strengthen it.
The poor versus the rich, that's the game. If BushCo can get poor whites to separate from the Dems on racial issues, that's a loss for the Dems. Poor whites have more in common with poor blacks than they do with rich whites. The poor should be united. This is a class war.
Immigrants and laborers are suffering because of the economic policies that favor the rich and care not for the working class. It pleases the repubs to no end to see their enemies confused and turning on each other. The suffering poor span the entire hemisphere and all are in the same boat together.
To agree with the racist fear-mongering of the republicans because in some self-defeating and delusional way it might win us votes with labor for whom, you admint, we have not been delivering? That is a recipe for loss of power, not gaining of power.

[kitp]

58. Okay, please explain

Exactly which of my ideas do you disagree with? I'm confused.

The issue that we are in imminent danger from floods of illegal immigrants flowing across our border who are out to destroy America and this can only be solved by arming the border and deporting 12 million people and it is NOT the fault of the current admins policies, this is the REPUBLICAN view of the world. I disagree with all of it. The Dems agree with all of it.

Which part do you agree with or disagree with?

[porphyrian]

54. You were wrong as soon as you guessed about what I know.

I'm very familiar with what's going on in construction. My best friend is a carpenter. I'm just not bigotted enough to blame the laborers instead of the asshole contractors who hire them.

[patcox2]

74. I don't blame the laborers.

Just stating the fact that immigrant labor drives down wages is fact, its not anti-immigrant. Whether we should enforce against the businesses or the immigrants is a matter of policy, I blame the businesses and the Bush admin for not enforcing against businesses. Thats not anti-immigrant.

There is a difference between being anti-immigration and anti-immigrant. Its kinda like the difference between being anti-free trade and anti-trade. I do not support the Bush guest worker program, I think the appropriate solution is to change nothing and start enforcing against employers.

[porphyrian]

76. Immigrant labor doesn't DRIVE wages down, greedy employers...

...are willing to break laws to make a buck at everyone else's expense. You're still blaming the victim, you just don't realize it yet.

[patcox2]

83. Look, if the people weren't here, they couldn't be hired.

I am not blaming them and I fulkly realize what I am doing. I am stating the economic rule about supply and demand, its not their fault that they are are supply. Its not blaming them.

Globalization itself is nothing more than arbitraging the different standards of living and wages in different countries, it will inevitably "level" the differences. Thats why I am against NAFTA and globalization in general (by the way, are you aware that the reason mexicans in traditional argricultural areas are starving, leaving the land, and coming here, is that NAFTA has allowed US agribusiness to sell corn in mexico duty-free, and US corn is much cheaper than mexican small-holder grown corn, and US agribusness is now wrecking the mexican small farm economuy just as it did the US small farm economy 20 years ago under Reagan?). Immigration is just a flip side of the same coin.

I am not anti-immigrant. Don't accuse me of not knowing whats going on here.

[porphyrian]

84. "...its not their fault that they are are supply."

No, they're people. Corporatists like to reduce people to abstracts because it's easier to victimize them that way. By using their language and supporting their arguments, you are standing against the majority of the people, both legal and illegal. If you want to blame people for this, blame those who profit at everyone else's expense, not those they exploit to do so.

Edit: '

[kitp]

48. hmmm...I think I like you

I completely agree. The whole first immigrant issue is one I wanted to bring up but thought might divert from the main issue.

Yes, our ancestors (okay, maybe just MY ancestors), immigrated and killed the people living there. It's a bit hypocritical to demonize these immigrants, who as far as I know don't have a cavalry, aren't engaged in genocide, but are simply fellow victims of an anit-human system of money/power worship.

[porphyrian]

60. Well, you're new here. I'm sure I'll piss you off and change your mind...

...before too long.
;)

[kitp]

68. actually not new

Renewed. I was very vocal during the '04 elections. Was so crushed by Kerry's concesion I went into a coma. Just now coming out.
This issue and the nuking of Iran are particulary bothering me. Mostly the lame-ass Dem response to the crumbling BushCo though.

If you want, I'll be pissed at you right now.

[porphyrian]

72. Well, I don't want to trouble you or anything. - n/t

[kitp]

98. :) n/t

[kentuck]

28. Realistically, it is not possible to round up 11 million people....

Take that option off the table.

So what do we do? Even "illegals" have to work, eat, and drive. The key, as some have said, lies with the employers of the "illegals". They should be required by law to make sure all employees have a legitimate SS number and are in this country legally. If they disobey the law, they would be subject to heavy fines.

Secondly, we should emphasize law-abiding citizenship. We should encourage all "illegals" to become citizens without charging them $400 to do so. That's a lot of money for most people. We have no choice but to integrate these folks into our society. The issue is how best to do it?

Thirdly, those that break the law and are here illegally must be deported or handled in a different way. That is the only legal way to really fight this problem, in my opinion. If they abide by the law, they an opportunity to join our society if they wish.

Lastly, stop the nonsensical talk about "enemies" and so forth. We're all in this boat together.

[FreakinDJ]

52. Don't need to

Go after the employers

[kentuck]

63. You have to go after the employers.

It's necessary.

[Justice Is Comin]

32. The only place you can make

effective change is at the employment source. Anyone who comes here is going to be looking for some kind of employment, no ifs, ands or buts.

If the employer is obligated to bring them in only after assuring their legal status or face a huge fine, the problem solves itself. But other problems may be created. Since the income source is cut off, they may resort to crime to obtain money.

That could be a real possibility but we have to target the most likely place to get the biggest results the quickest.

Another thought I had, why wouldn't it be possible to carve out certain occupations where Americans really DON'T want to do those strenuous manual labor jobs, such as picking fruit? And allow the employer to hire them for minimum wage if they were successful in entering the country illegally.

It solves the need of the employer, it makes it legal, doesn't require deportation costs/manpower, and still simultaneously the border sealing process could run concurrently as well. It also makes them part of the tax base.

[FreakinDJ]

64. Thank God for a dose of sanity

Does anyone ever think of amount of tax revenue loss because of the employer

Last time I checked Tax evasion was a serious crime

[leftchick]

36. DEMOCRATIC!

:eyes:

[BlooInBloo]

55. I'm sick of this even pretending to be an issue, and would CLOSE it...

By doing the following:

(1) Citizen-ize (or put on the road towards such) all illegals currently here.

(2) Fine companies for hiring illegal immigrants, exponentially in the number they hire, starting at $1. (e.g., $1 for the first, $2 for the second, $4 for the third, etc.). For those who are arithmetically-challenged: don't worry - the numbers get big FAST, killing the big employers, while not overly hurting ma & pa who have a nanny.

(3) Step up federal border patrol stuff a bit

(4) Explicitly criminalize all vigilante groups, and make an example of the first one I can easily find.

(5) Develop a process to somewhat expedite the immigration process (not at the expense of natl security, of course).


There. Issue is DONE. Yah, a lot of white folks can't STAND the idea of someone "getting away with it", tough. Issue is DONE.

Move on people.

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

75. ooh - a freudian slip maybe?

Ouch!

[Jersey Devil]

79. lol

Undoubtedly.

[asthmaticeog]

77. .

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

78. Wait - do you mean:

?

[Bridget Burke]

80. Let's not speak ill of the departed....

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

82. and so it goes

[asthmaticeog]

81. Something along these lines:

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

85. I see

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

87. The higher their post count, the most gratifying the fall.

I think I soiled my pants. :bounce:

[asthmaticeog]

88. You called that one early, as I recall.

Well-done, sir. Your radar is finely-tuned and always erect. :patriot:

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

92. Don't mention it...

http://www.seethedonkey.com/tvthemesongs/Spiderman.au

[Misunderestimator]

90. Oh.

Party!

[Kingofalldems]

86. 'Democrat' boy. I'd like to reply but I see you are gone

You made a terrible slip up there didn't you? Don't go away mad. Eagles up!!111111!!

[Richardo]

100. Nooo....

--------------------------------------------------------->

[arwalden]

101. Awwww. What A Pity.

[Touchdown]

89. Democrat??? Plan? Try spelling the party right, and I'll

answer you.

[951-Riverside]

93. PLAN A: Do whatever Bush does

PLAN B: ....well they havent gotten past plan A.

Now If they asked us we would provide them with plan A,B,C,D,E,F,G etc but they really don't care about us do they?

[Done]

97. When the Democrats don't define themselves...

the republicans define them.

[iconoclastNYC]

103. What's the REPUBLICAN plan?

Answer: there is no REPUBLICAN plan.

There are plans put forth by various Republicans from Tancredo, to Bush, to McCain

There are plans from Democrats such as Kennedy and others.

If you are looking for THE Democratic plan then you are in for a long wait.

The DEMOCRATIC Pary is not like the communist party. We don't have a DEAR LEADER who tells us all what to think.

[Ksec]

104. Their plan is the same as bush's , give illegals amnesty

Or you could also call it Pandering for votes.

The Dems have a perfect oppurtunity and theyre squabbling it....again. One thing about my party..they sure know how to ruin an opportunity to lead. I see a third party coming because of this. Itll seal the Dems fate.

[jerry611]

109. Amnesty

Just look at the posts in here. Look at the vote today.

Democrats have done the same exact thing the GOP has been doing for years. They are betraying the American worker and selling America away one piece at a time.

[Ms. Clio]

110. Mikey you FReaker scumbag

Go join your racist pal Jonesy in hell.

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

113. Yeah, speaking of rats. n/t