Is this the Dirty Little Secret behind the illegal immigration issue?

[Armstead]

Would it really matter to many people if immigrants have legal status or not? Is that just a convenient excuse that enables White People to exercise their prejudice and desire to keep everyone else down?

Immigration is nothing new. Neither is hatred of newcomers and anyone who is different from entrenched ethnic groups.

At one time the Irish were despised. Irish immigrants were seen as hordes of invading sub-humans, and they were treated and abused accordingly....Today, whether or not one has Irish roots matters not at all in terms of being accepted as "regular Americans."

Many groups have gone through similar process. It's called the melting pot for a reason.

Is the dirty little secret behind the current brouhaha over illegal immigration really that it is just the latest version of this?

Is all this stuff actually a boiling over of the accumulated prejudice that Amricans have experienced in recent decades by seeing brown faces behind the counters of convenience stores or otehrwise participating in daily life?


Is the real issue simply the fact that, once again, the ethnic composition of Americ is changing, and people don't like it?

And politically, is it just the latest model of going after gays, Muslims and anyone else who can be made a convenient scapegoat?

Have we really made any progress in terms of overcoming prejudice since the Civil Rights movement of the 1960's?

[Che_Nuevara]

1. Short answer: yes. (n/t)

[FreakinDJ]

2. I'm hispanic for me it is a matter of cost

I live in what is called a brown neighborhood.

It is the burden placed on the legal tax payer that disturbs me. I don't think most people realize the % that is just here to make money for a few years and return home. But at the same time they are not paying taxes and using state funded services.

Realistically I see this as a move by the right wing to end social programs once and for all. By over burdening the system to a breaking point while giving them an endless source of cheap labor.

Sure some deserve to stay and want to, but others are merely here to exploit the loop holes

[Armstead]

6. But is it a real crisis or just anotehr ongoing problem?

I'm not saying that there is no justification to be concerned about the number of illegal immigrants of their effect.

But these kinds of problems are nothing new. Heck, the first white people to come to America were just here to plunder for a little while before returning home.

My concern is the degree to which it has sudeenly become another New Crisis, and all of the frenzy it has stirred up. There's a diference between ddressing real problems in perspective, and making mountains out of molehills.

[FreakinDJ]

15. That was before Rosevelt's "New Deal"

Back then you survived only by your own recourse. Sure many joined the military to gain citizenship and were promptly used as cannon fodder.

I firmly believe this serves to provide cheap labor and dispose of Social programs once and for all. The projected burden to the system is stagering

WASHINGTON (August 25, 2004) — A new study from the Center for Immigration Studies is one of the first to estimate the impact of illegal immigration on the federal budget. Based on Census Bureau data, the study estimates that households headed by illegal aliens used $10 billion more in government services than they paid in taxes in 2002. These figures are only for the federal government; costs at the state and local level are also likely to be significant. The study also finds that if illegals were given amnesty, the fiscal deficit at the federal level would grow to nearly $29 billion.
http://www.cis.org/articles/2004/fiscalrelease.html

[KAT119]

72. It's the scramble for too few jobs and resources-300 million tax paying

citizens and 20 million illegal immigrants-- and only 150 million jobs--(says Bear Stearns recently). 84 overwhemed Emergency rooms have had to close in Calif. The schools in US border states are overwhelmed. Taxpayers shell out $16 billion each year to pay for illegal immigrants needs.

Why not march for their rights in Mexico City. THE US IS NOW OVERPOPULATED -- over polluted--over criminalized etc. etc.

This is not about racism-it is about Survival of the US middle class and working poor.

Bush has sent 3million US middle class jobs to India etc. and closed so many of our manufacturing plants. GM/Ford closing NOW=the financial foundation of US.

Times have changed....We are barely hanging on here now....

[Cleita]

14. How do you know whether they pay taxes or not?

Most have taxes deducted from their wages. Employers fear the IRS more than the INS. As for being paid under the table, many Americans do the same or work for barter. So if you are going to make accusations for one group please in the interest of fairness point out that it isn't only immigrants who do this.

[FreakinDJ]

18. Mainly because I live with them

and no most are not paying taxes, most are under the table partially or fully

[Cleita]

28. So you know this and you don't turn their employers into the IRS?

That makes you complicit. Also, don't these people buy things and pay sales tax?

[FreakinDJ]

46. Show me the 1-800 WE TIP number for IRS

I searched the internet before and could not find it

[Cleita]

60. There are IRS offices in every district of this country with

telephone numbers listed in the phone book. Pick up your phone and make a call.

[jberryhill]

84. But if they were employed legally.....

Then their employers could deduct the wages legally.

So, isn't it something of a wash?

[recoveringrepublican]

21. Here in Florida they pay taxes

if they buy anything or rent they are paying local taxes. May with fake/stolen soc-sec-# pay federal taxes.

[FreakinDJ]

27. Florida also has depressed wage scales

I was amazed how low wage scales in florida were when I was there.

But illegal immigration is a NET LOSS

WASHINGTON (August 25, 2004) — A new study from the Center for Immigration Studies is one of the first to estimate the impact of illegal immigration on the federal budget. Based on Census Bureau data, the study estimates that households headed by illegal aliens used $10 billion more in government services than they paid in taxes in 2002. These figures are only for the federal government; costs at the state and local level are also likely to be significant. The study also finds that if illegals were given amnesty, the fiscal deficit at the federal level would grow to nearly $29 billion.
http://www.cis.org/articles/2004/fiscalrelease.html

[Bridget Burke]

49. Ah, a link from the Center for Immigration Studies!

The Center for Immigration Studies describes itself as "the nation's only think tank devoted exclusively to research and policy analysis of the economic, social, demographic, fiscal, and other impacts of immigration on the United States." Founded in 1985 as a think tank to support the more activist work of the anti-immigrant Federation for American Immigration Reform (FAIR), CIS is dedicated "to expand the base of public knowledge and understanding of the need for an immigration policy that gives first concern to the broad national interest. The Center is animated by a pro-immigrant, low-immigration vision which seeks fewer immigrants but a warmer welcome for those admitted."

CIS describes itself as “independent” and “nonpartisan,” but its studies, reports, and media releases consistently support its restrictionist agenda and works closely on Capitol Hill with Republican Party immigration restrictionists. ....

The Center for Immigration Studies was founded in 1985 as a spin-off of the Federation for American Immigration Reform (FAIR). Another FAIR spin-off is the Immigration Reform Law Institute, which functions as the litigation arm of FAIR, according to the Southern Poverty Law Center.

Let’s be clear,” wrote Frank Sharry of the National Immigration Forum, “CIS was birthed by FAIR, the militant anti-immigration group. The CIS executive director moved from FAIR to CIS to head up the organization. Although now independent, the two organizations share the same basic agenda: an American version of what in Europe is called ‘zero immigration.’” According to Sharry, CIS masquerades as an objective, “squeaky clean” think tank, but CIS is “simply churning out high-sounding, low-credibility grist for the high-pitch, low-road anti-immigration forces in the United States.” This assessment of CIS is widely shared among pro-immigrant groups, but CIS studies are not only frequently cited by the “low-road” nativist forces but also by major news media.

http://rightweb.irc-online.org/profile/1452

Thanks again to Rightweb--source of information on many groups cited in these threads.

[Name removed]

52. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Ms. Clio]

82. that's all they ever have!

it's becoming laughable, really.

[blondeatlast]

86. Happy to see someone beat me to this!

WTG, BB, thanks!

[recoveringrepublican]

80. Tell me about it. Didn't know if it was a net loss or gain, just that

most likely ALL who live here pay taxes one way or another.

[porphyrian]

30. Nobody doesn't pay any taxes.

Yes, that was horrible English.

You can't live in America without paying some kind of tax, likely more than once, even though that's not supposed to happen. Everyone pays sales tax. Illegals don't bring all the food they'll need in the time they're here with them across the border. They are paying someone rent, and that person is paying property tax with their rent money. They buy gas. They use utilities. I don't think there is any state in the union where all of these things go untaxed.

While they might not be paying income tax like legal citizens are supposed to, all of them together can't create the same burden created by the corporations who manage to avoid paying taxes on billions of dollars a year both legally and illegally. If we're really concerned about correcting the tax burden, let's make the fucking corporations pay their fair share instead of first blaming the labor many of them are guilty of exploiting.

[Cleita]

33. The only labor that isn't taxed in America is day labor.

Everyone who gets a paycheck, gets taxes deducted because employers fear the fines the IRS levy on them for not filing quarterly taxes. They are very draconian. As for day labor, prostitutes, bootleggers and drug dealers also don't pay taxes because their activities are illegal. (Some do but that isn't the mainstream.) So let's talk about the whole picture here before scapegoating.

Question? Should a prostitute pay a sidewalk and curb tax because s/he is using the street paid for by taxpayers?

On edit: btw porphyrian I'm not pointing a finger at you because you speak the truth but to others who may disagree with you.

[FreakinDJ]

50. NOT TRUE sweety

Come on up here to Northern California and I'll take you on a little tour

Not only they paid entirely under the table (no Federal, State, SSI, Medicade) they are not even paid for all the hours they work. any time they ask for a raise they get fired. Any time they get hurt at work they get a couple hundred bucks and ticket home.

[Cleita]

59. Then why aren't you guys who are aware of this notifying the

Labor Board and the IRS about this? The immigrants can't without ending up incarcerated or deported, but you guys can and should file complaints about the employers who are doing this.

Blaming the immigrants who have a choice between work and starvation isn't going to solve the problem.

[Tansy_Gold]

68. Report what?

See my post #54 for reference.

When the situation is an I-said, you-said situation, with no evidence but accusations, what good does it do to report someone? And hey, I live in the Phoenix area, where day laborers -- whether they're "legal" or not -- are in front of Home Depot, Lowe's, and a dozen other stores every day, so don't tell me about the "facts" of illegal labor.

These workers -- and again, it doesn't matter if they're illegal immigrants or retired cops -- are paid in cash because then there's no paper trail. So what if I report them to the IRS or the labor board? The accused employer says, "Oh, Ms. Gold must have been mistaken. I don't hire illegals. I have documentation for all my people. Did she see me pick up a couple of workers at Home Depot? Well, sure, a couple of my guys -- I've got their papers -- stayed outside to chat with some friends while I picked up a load of drywall."

What proof do I have that I paid the car-hauler cash out of my pocket? I have no receipt from him, and he has paperwork to show he did another job.

I used to do payroll for a construction company that hired a lot of locals in the west and southwest. We had to have documentation for everyone who went on the payroll, but we didn't actually see the people, and we had no idea how many were paid off the books, how many matched their IDs, or even how many "paychecks" were actually for two or three people. Did I suspect it went on? Sure I did. I heard field supervisors talk about it. But did I have any evidence? Nope.

Are there construction companies in Phoenix that hire whole crews of undocumented immigrants? Probably. And are there union carpenters and union electricians and union plumbers who would love to turn them in? Sure. But they need hard evidence, too, and they risk losing their own jobs or having their employer put out of business. People have a tendency to protect themselves FIRST. It's just like the people who sit around the bar and bitch about how Wal-mart came into their town and all the independent businesses closed up -- but they themselves won't stop shopping there because paper towels are so cheap. They feed the dog that bites them.

Once again -- the issue is that the haves want to maintain their supply of cheap labor and use that supply to keep the wages of "legal" workers down. Make the immigrants legal, give them the rights to vote, to complain about unfair working (and housing) conditions, take away the motive for the smugglers -- I mean, isn't there some resemblance to the prohibition on alcohol from the 20s?

Just imagine: If even 25% of the estimated 12 million "illegals" were allowed to vote legally, who do you think they'd vote for? The same kind of people who are paying them $3 an hour to work 15 hour days with no benefits and threatening to report them to La Migra if they step out of line?

We working folks who are fortunate enough to be citizens have much more in common with our undocumented immigrant neighbors than with the have-mores who are so against this. We ought to be embracing them and their cause; they might return the favor.


Tansy Gold

[Cleita]

76. I wholeheartedly agree with you on your statement:

We working folks who are fortunate enough to be citizens have much more in common with our undocumented immigrant neighbors than with the have-mores who are so against this. We ought to be embracing them and their cause; they might return the favor.

I too was a payroll bookkeeper in restaurant chains. Back then the employers were terrified of the IRS and reported every penny paid to immigrants. Whether their documentation was legal or not, the suits didn't seem to be concerned about that, only that every penny paid to them was accounted for and quarterly tax returns filed for the taxes collected from them.

The poster I replied to said he is aware of these situations, so he should report the employers who are breaking the law. Having helped a friend of mine who was stiffed on wages in the past, I have found out that the Labor Board in California will pursue wage issues even if the worker was paid under the table, if you can present some evidence. Usually, it is a witness who is willing to testify on behalf of the worker that he saw him working there, which it was in the case of my friend.

My friend had also kept a diary of the hours he worked and they were able to use that as evidence as well. Now being it's an understaffed government agency the wheels turn slowly, however, they did rule in favor of my friend. The rub is that they don't collect for you, you have to get law enforcement to do it for you and usually, they get in payment almost all that was collected.

What does happen is that said employer comes under the scrutiny of the Labor Board, the IRS and the Board of Equalization and law enforcement. Since my friend died before he could collect, the employer refused to pay the back wages to his heir and son. To pursue it in court would have been very expensive, so the employer got away with it for a short while.

But since he had come under the microscope, various law enforcement agencies picked on him to audit and fine for breaking the laws. He soon went out of business.

So my point is that if you know this is going on and you think it's illegal report the lawbreakers to the right agency so that they will be investigated instead of whining about it.

[Tansy_Gold]

54. There's a lot of untaxed labor/income -- but we don't think of it in

the same terms as what day laborers and, okay, hookers are paid.

A couple of weeks ago, I needed a vehicle towed from Location A to Location B. A friend of a friend offered to do it for about half the price quoted to me by some trucking companies, as long as I paid him cash. Since he had a contract to pick up a vehicle at Location B and take it back to Location A, he could show all his expenses and all his income from that contract on his books, and the cash I paid him just went in his pocket.

Last week-end I was shopping for plants to put in the yard at my new house. I went to a small local nursery and found a couple nice young trees. I asked the owner if he took plastic and he said no, but if I paid him cash, he'd give me a hefty discount since he wouldn't report it all on his sales tax return.

A retired friend of mine has a lucrative handyman business. He's a healthy single male living in a 55+ community where widows outnumber widowers by about 6 to 1. He does everything from helping hang pictures and changing furnace filters to minor plumbing and electrical repairs. The cash supplements his social security and other income to the tune of about $25K a year, and none of it is taxed.

I'm sure each of us can come up with a whole lot more examples, because the underground/untaxed economy is alive and well.

The whole immigration thing is POLITICAL and ONLY POLITICAL. Like abortion and gay marriage, it's something few politicians really want to do anything about, because if they actually fixed the problem <?>, they wouldn't have an issue to campaign on. It's not about taxes, it's not about use of public services, it's not about learning English, it's not about borders, it's not about terrorism. It's about politics.

Tansy Gold, who sometimes doesn't exactly report all of her income either. . ..

[Cleita]

63. Thanks Tansy Gold. This is my point exactly.

I'm really not trying to dump on DUers who have bought the political argument but to point out the fallacy of it out to them. I worry about victimizing an underclass who only come here to work. If they were here dealing drugs and making money as gangsters and cartels, yes I think we should crash down on them and hard, but this isn't the case in the majority of these immigrants.

[redqueen]

34. Excellent post! n/t

[coalition_unwilling]

67. Au contraire -- most dispassionate studies of the tax issue and

the undocumented have found that undocumented workers pay far more in taxes (sales, income, social security) than they receive in benefits. So I would answer the original poster's question with a resounding "yes" -- of course, it's genteel racism.

Although I'm a gringo, I also live in a "brown city" (Los Angeles) and you would have to keep your eyes closed permanently not to see who does all the real back-breaking shit work in this city.

[earthside]

3. No.

Except for some fringe haters on the far right, I don't think this is about racial or ethnic prejudice.

This is about creating an unsustainable level of population in the United States.

At current rates of population growth, we will see 400 million people here by 2036.

Every year we keep this up, we will see greater and greater pressure and tension on social institutions, physical infrastructure, employment and the standard of living, more energy crunches and more suburban sprawl.

A lot of people -- from liberal to conservative -- are beginning to understand the consequences of illegal immigration if we don't change something soon.

That, in my opinion, is what this is all about.

[Armstead]

10. If that were the case, we'd be dealing with otehr aspects of it

I agree with you that growing population is a problem.

But compared to the rest of the causes of that, illegal immigration is a drop in the bucket. if we were really serious, we'd be talking about all the causes of ovrerpopulation, including our tedendency to create too many offspring.

[UTUSN]

4. Hispanics, the New Jews

*******QUOTE*******

from "A History of the Jews" p. 358 (paperback) by Paul JOHNSON::

".... ...the Russians always treated Jews as unacceptable aliens. .... ...the regime began to refer to it as 'the Jewish problem', to be 'solved', either by assimilation or by expulsion."

*********UNQUOTE*******

The 3 choices: assimilation. expulsion. & the Nazi's favorite:: extermination.

[porphyrian]

42. Cool! We can celebrate El Malagueña!

Or is that too obscure a reference?

[LaurenG]

5. This statement is too simplistic

"Would it really matter to many people if they have legal status or not? Is that just a convenient excuse that enables White People to exercise their prejudice and desire to keep everyone else down? Is the real issue simply the fact that, once again, the ethnic composition of America is changing, and people don't like it?"

Perhaps some people fear what you state but many others have a problem with people just walking into the country illegally and if we are truly a country under constant attack as the rich white boys in the whitehouse insist we are, then something MUST be done to protect our country don't you think?

[Armstead]

7. I realize it's simplistic

But I am asking whether that is a large part of what is driving this issue.

Suppose there were a flood of Euro-Canadians sneaking over the border. Would there be the sme level of outrage?

[Cleita]

24. There has been such a thing as you describe. Europeans

sneaking in through Canada and working here as long as I can remember. I met many of them when I lived in Los Angeles. The American children of one Irish couple live up the road from me. Both are productive adults raising a family. Most of the ones I knew gained amnesty in 1986 alongside the hispanic immigrants and have raised good American families, who are now raising their families.

Yet, there is not a whimper about them. Most posts about the "other" immigrants who enter illegally sink into oblivion, so it makes one believe it is an ethnic if not racial issue, based on people whose culture and language are different from the white European culture.

[LaurenG]

29. Well I know that some ex in-laws in Vermont and New Hampshire

were very upset with Canadians sneaking over. I suppose it would upset some people, especially if corporations were abusing the system as badly as they are right now.

I think that people don't want to be taken advantage of but I could be mistaken.

[FreakinDJ]

9. Does not his plan increase immigration

I believe the levels of legal immigration would be increased x 5. I hardly call that action indicative of "attack as the rich white boys" attitude.

I see it more liken corporate America's thrirst for cheap labor

[Armstead]

16. Cheap labor is only one aspect of it

I agree with you that a lot of illegal immigration is driven by the desire for cheap labor here in the us.

But in reality, illegal immigration is just one symptom of that. Is Americans were really concerned about that, then we'd be talking about the Con Job of Corporate Globalization, the undermining of ALL workers rights and the depression of wages and benefits and the trend to outsourcing.

Seems to me the illegal immigration aspect of that is blowing one aspect out of proportion while we ignore the real issues.

[FreakinDJ]

23. Some are talking about Corporate Globalization

We realize just how bad conditions in Mexico are, but increasing immigration levels will do nothing but perpetuate the injustices in Mexico

Transfer of wealth
Yet, that tiny economywide number masks a major redistribution of wealth. The cross-border movement of generally low-skilled, low-educated immigrants has depressed wages for unskilled native workers while helping keep consumer prices under control and inflating profits for employers.
Borjas estimates that workers lose $278 billion because of immigration, while employers gain $300 billion. "There's a huge redistribution away from workers to people who use immigrants. ... That's what people are arguing about," says Borjas, an immigration specialist.
http://www.usatoday.com/money/economy/2006-04-10-immigrants-economic-impact_x.htm

[trudyco]

36. Who is "we" white boy?

I think you confuse the political machinations with the beliefs of everyday people. Of COURSE the right wing is trying to exploit latent racism to get their base to move back into the Republican fold. Of COURSE they are using this to drown out other important issues they can't win on like outsourcing. This doesn't mean the majority of people who are against illegal immigration are racist. I hate this left wing talking point.

The everyday people I talk to are against illegal immigration AND job outsourcing et al. They just don't get invited to talk on CNN.

Personally I think the huge jump in illegal immigration happened because more Mexicans are worse off than ever before and the Bush administration has allowed corporations to exploit it by looking the other way. If Bush wanted to stop this he could. He doesn't. He's just using it like they used gay marriage last time to have a logical reason why Republicans win in the elections (as opposed to my pet theory of the real reason which is the vote counting is rigged). Except they are so far in the hole and the illegal immigration problem is such a can of worms that it isn't going to work this time. Putting guards at the border and building prison camps worries me, though. What is he really going to use them for? It seems like nothing he does is really what it seems. Color me paranoid.

[FreakinDJ]

43. No doubt Mexico is worse off because of USA inaction

We held the key in the NAFTA discussions but refused to address it. Worker's rights / Human rights should have been attached to those treaties.

It still does not justify engaging middle America in a downward spiral of suppressed wages and increased tax burden. I don't like what happens in Mexico, but lets face I need to feed my family too.

Labour Movement
Mexican labour law gives the government the power to stop formation of independent unions, to ban strikes or to declare them "legally non-existent," which leaves strikers no protection from being fired. 9 The PRI has exercised almost complete control over unions, and most efforts to form independent unions and bargain collectively led to terrorism against independent organisers.10 In maquilas (or maquiladoras, factories that produce for export - see discussion under Convention Article 11 - Employment), employers and local officials have thwarted attempts to organise unions. 11 The PRI dominance and constraints on the labour movement have led to a decrease in workers' real wages.
http://iwraw.igc.org/publications/countries/mexico.htm

[LaurenG]

35. Yes I also agree with that

I have a difficult time with this issue, I understand and agree with some on both sides.

I think people should be welcomed, I think they should do it legally as well.

[Cleita]

8. Great perspective and yes you are correct about what you say.

K&R

[tulsakatz]

11. racial bigots

that's all that it's about! The right, mainly the bigots want the immigrants shipped back to Mexico or wherever they came from!

Bush is not willing to do that. He has been trying to court the hispanic vote for several yrs and if he does that, it would put an end to future support by the legal hispanics.

And I'm sure the right was hoping he would change his mind about shipping them back. It sure is refreshing though to hear Democrats agreeing with Bush for a change! It won't change any of their differences on other issues but at least people know now that the Democrats will agree with a sensible idea whether it comes from a Democrat or a Republican.

[FreakinDJ]

53. That would explain why many Blacks and Hispanics against

any increases in current immigration levels

Has nothing to do with they are are ready struggling to make ends meet. Everyone else knows immigrant labor is used to suppress wages but if you say any thing about your pay check being cut in half your racist

Love your logic

[Warpy]

12. The dirty secret is fueled by that $5.15 minimum wage

which is making illegals looks so damned attractive. The dirty secret is that scumbag employers have AGENCIES IN MEXICO that recruit these people, smuggle them in, and transport them to jobs here. The dirty secret is that this is ORGANIZED CRIME, trafficking in human beings who think our minimum wage looks like a fortune until they see what our prices are like.

The dirty secret is that this is BIG BUSINESS.

Racism is only the smokescreen.

[Armstead]

25. where there's smoke.....

You are correct about the econoic aspects of this.

But that does not explain why Americans are prone to whip it into an issue, while they ignore all of the related isuess that are screwing them economically.

Some employers are exploiting illegal immigration. But they are exploiting all of us in much bigger and all encompassing ways. So why is the one aspect that also relates to racism the only one that is really gaining political traction?....There is a fire that allows that smokescreen to build.


I don't have the answers.

[sadiesworld]

74. Because WE THE PEOPLE don't have the POWER to create issues.

The off-shoring of jobs, LIKE the insourcing of cheap labor, is an issue that greatly concerns rank-and-file US citizens. My local paper never even mentioned the passage of CAFTA. There was virtually no debate here on DU about CAFTA (the requests in the activism forum were ignored). Yet, THE PEOPLE absolutely HATE our trade policies--get out and ask them! Don't you think every new report of a factory closing or jobs being sent overseas makes people's blood BOIL!

Yesterday's failure of the Dorgan Amendment (an amendment to remove the prospective guest worker provision from the immigration bill) has gone virtually "unnoticed" on DU. A dagger was plunged into the heart of organized labor, yet no comments on a democratic board?! Everyone has been too darn busy chasing rumors of the Rove indictment and the (bogus) release of the Flight 77 tape. Talk about throwing some catnip to the internet left while organized labor takes a beating.

Sure, the right is using illegal immigration to try and stir up some shit with their base. It's also crucial to get these massive guest worker programs going (we'll give the UAE a run for its money yet) so that the back of US labor can be broken and the corporate globalization plan can proceed.

If the corporate media gave a fraction of the attention to trade that they give to illegal immigration, you would most certainly see some fireworks. But that dirty work is done at 2 a.m. legislative sessions with a virtual media blackout.

You know, it ALL sucks.

[Cleita]

38. Isn't there a word for this? I believe if it were about smuggling

in goods to avoid import taxes, that it would be called bootlegging. Instead they are bootlegging people. Surely some legal eagles could investigate these companies to find out if they have in fact been instrumental in recruiting and importing these people illegally. Instead it seems so much easier to blame the victims.

[treestar]

13. Absolutely, yes. The terrorists must all be dead for the Mexican

low wage laborers to suddenly constitute such a threat.

The economic based arguments are all based on a shallow view of the job market. It is as if new companies never go into business, some people working never creates jobs for others due to purchasing power, as if old companies never go out of business or reduce or expand and as if Americans are so lacking in entrepreneural ability they think "jobs" are some sort of sinecure.

I even wonder why Americans don't go down to Mexico and invest in some basic commodities the Mexicans could afford. That would float their economy up. But then it would involve being close to a lot of Mexican people. I guess that's the problem.

[MADem]

17. Actually, it's economic, and it's political

No one minded the Irish so long as they carried hod, emptied ashcans, picked up trash, and served as maids or cooks. So long as they stayed in "their place" they were fine. Of course, many people actually thought that the Irish had tails, ya know. Same with the "swarthy" Italians--cut stone, do construction, stay in your own enclave and eat yer macaroni and pizza! Sure, they were made fun of and insulted, but those were the times. It's only when they dared to want to get advanced education, be policemen, fireman, and got elected to city councils, and good gravy, MAYORS, that the hoi polloi started really getting on them. Those good city jobs were patronage positions, and the Brahmins wanted to be in control of the patronage. With the Irish in power, allied with the Italians, they could throw the dough to THEIR pals, not the pals of the gentry.

Inflation is starting to become a problem. Unemployment is not as low as the official figures would have you believe. Between the discouraged workers, and the workers holding two jobs to earn the dough that one used to bring in, it's not a cheery picture. If things get worse, they'll need those broom pushing jobs for the guy who used to sit in a cubicle, because HIS job will be outsourced to India.

So, drag out any old excuse--the worshipping of the Pope in Rome one isn't gonna fly, it's been used too often, so let's fixate on things like language (amazing how those Italians managed to learn English in a generation, but those Mexicans won't be able to do the same???). Oh, and they're DIRTY and they have DISEASES (that's an oldie and a goodie).

The real fear is the power of the vote. The loss of control. Oh, well...they'll just have to adapt and adjust.

An interesting read on a peripheral aspect of the subject, here: http://www.people.virginia.edu/~mmw3v/html/ykid/irish.htm

[Kashka-Kat]

19. No, its about "outsourcing" -to Asia, e. Europe, AND to the undocumented

cheap labor who've come to US. It is all part of the *same problem.*

But what I dont go along with is pinning blame wholly on the undocumented worker and absolving the corporations/employers who profit off of them.

Bush's speech was disgusting, he mentioned employers twice but absolved them completely saying the employers don't know whose legal and whose not because the workers forge documents! Okaaaayyy...

Me I love multiethnicity. Love ethnic festivals, love interacting with people from way different backgrounds, love that people look and talk different.

But I DONT love that jobs are outsourced and the skilled trades, etc., once well paying options for the blue collar worker-- now commonly go to undocumented workers for horribly low pay, no benefits, no workers rights. This is affecting people who I know and love. Its not just a story in the newspaper for me.

[Ian David]

20. Mexicans are sneaking over the border and gay-marrying our lesbians...

while feeding persecuted Christian babies to alligators hopped-up on steroids.

To their credit, they're only gay-marrying the lesbians that don't want American men.

But, if state and local officials hadn't been to busy burning The American Flag, they would have sent the busses to evacuate the lesbians, and then Natalie Holloway would still be alive today, despite all the violent video games she was exposed to.

[Jack from Charlotte]

44. LOL! (nt)

*

[libodem]

22. this is what happens when the far-far right is empowered

they have stirred up the survivalist-white supremacist crowd and allowed the freakazoids out of the basement.

[IndyOp]

26. It is racism, classism, and amping-up fears of terrorism - all-in-one.

Racism and classism are obvious -

Last week Michael Savage and FOX pundits were *foaming* at the mouth about the fact that minorities would outnumber whites in 25-30 years if current trends continue. Savage was asking what would happen when the minorities were in power -- when your little (white) girl was a minority in this society? Whipping up hatred.

But think also of this: Everytime * and friends paint a picture of 'barbarians at the gate' they stir up the same fears, touch on similar concerns about terrorists at the gates.

Racist, classism, and terrorism - it is an excellent issue for the GOP and it will give them a foothold if the Dems don't change the frame and fast.

Jeffrey Feldman of "Frameshop is Open" was just talking about this on Thom Hartmann.
This is Feldman's site <http://www.frameshopisopen.com/>

[porphyrian]

45. Racism, classism, and terrorism - the new American cocktail. - n/t

[napi21]

31. If the poor and middle class American wasn't so dramatically affected

by outsourcing, downsizing, and corporate greed, I doubt anyone would much care about the illegals. But when many low income citizens now can't even get a construction job, or work as a painter because so many are willing to do those jobs for pay that noone can live on, you get a pushback! Thousands of people worked in customer service phone jobs, at just a little above minimum wage, and now those jobs have gone to India where they're paid at a fraction of our minimum wage.

As a good example, meat cutters who worked in the packing houses in 1980 were making $19/hr. Today, all those jobs are held by illegals or at the very least untrained immigrants, and they're avg. wage is $9/hr.

I really think the problem is self preservation on both sides, but the employees are not at fault. I don't have the numbers, but I'd bet if you checked the salary of the executives of the meat packing houses, you'd find an dramatic increase in THEIR salary, at the expense of the employees!

[Cleita]

37. So instead of blaming the leaders and industries

who outsource, downsize, and underpay employees, you would rather blame the victim? It doesn't make sense to me, particularly since the INS estimates that of the 12 million illegal immigrants in this country, 20% are Mexican. The rest are from all over the world. If 80% of illegals are from all over the world, why are we worried only about the border with Mexico?

[Kashka-Kat]

55. Please read the posts before you respond!

The poster wrote "the employees are not to blame." From what I can tell the poster is not saying what you say he/she is saying!

(ps Dont mean to scold but I hope can discuss this in non-polarities. thnx)

[napi21]

56. I think you MISREAD my post. I AM blaming the employers!

Where do you see where I'm blaming the "victim"?

[Cleita]

65. Sorry, I meant to post this to someone else.

I'm done with this thread anyway. Anytime I start reading some of the answers (not all) from supposedly liberal and compassionate DUers, my blood pressure shoots up.

[High Plains]

47. I was a meat cutter in the 1970s. The job paid good wages.

Wages crashed because the companies broke the unions, not because of Mexican workers.

[napi21]

57. Yes, they crushed the unions and that is part of the problem.

However, when I read about Tyson and Cargill shutting down on May 1st because they wouldn't have enough employees show up for work to be able to run the operation, that told me something! THAT, coupled with their own admission that the wages had been reduced by half in the last 25 years, and that number is not even adjusted for inflation, tells me that those companies found a lot of workers who were willing to do the job for a LOT less! somehow I doubt it's the same guys YOU worked with.

[Cleita]

79. The Taft-Hartley Law of 1947 was the beginning of the

demise of the unions. If we can get a Democratic Congress to repeal it, it will go a long way into restoring unions to their former power.

Also, unions used to deny membership to many ethnic groups, which wasn't right. Unions must embrace all races and ethnicities if they are going to work for the working classes. Otherwise those locked out of the union because of whom they are become scabs.

[coalition_unwilling]

70. Thank you for some sense! (n/t)

[AnnInLa]

32. Mike Huckabee agrees with you (and so do I)

Huckabee: Some Critics Of Comprehensive Reform Are Motivated By Racism

If you're among those who believe that AR Gov. Mike Huckabee is a major player in the '08 presidential sweepstakes, the following three quotations count as news.

Huckabee was in DC today and met with reporters over lunch. We'll have more in tomorrow's Hotline.

1. Huckabee, who supports guest worker programs and is not an immigration hard-liner, said he believes opposition to comprehensive immigration reform is 'irrational in many cases.' And he did not discount the causative factor of racism.

"If I were to say that some of it is driven by just sheer racism, I think I would be telling you the truth. I've had conversations with people that and it became very evident that what they really didn't like was that people didn't look like them, didn't talk like them, didn't celebrate ht holidays like they do, and they just had a problem with it. Now, that is not to say that everyone who is really fired out about immigration is racist. They're not."

http://hotlineblog.nationaljournal.com/archives/2006/05/huckabee_some_c.html

[BooScout]

39. No...

I oppose illegal immigration simply for the reason that my husband and I went thru the ordeal of legal immigration. It's a big PITA but we did it the legal way. So can everyone else. America has no obligation to accept everyone who wants to come and live. period.

If illegal immigration wasn't such a huge mess, more could immigrate legally. Quotas for legal immigration are kept artifically low because of illegal aliens.

[F.Gordon]

40. Go back a little farther in time

Research the Palmer Raids and the rounding up of immigrants. All came after the first actual terrorist attacks on US soil....long long long before 9/11. The parallels of then and now are damn scary.

I just read in the "news" here that people (if you could call them human) are going around to cemeteries in the Denver area and defacing/knocking down tombstones with latino names on them. Same old shit. If you research the Palmer days check out what "people" did to the Germans back then.

All the work done for Civil Rights that began in the 60's has been effectively eroded away by the BFEE. Racism is now not only tolerated.... it's encouraged.

Great Kountry we live in, eh?
:hi:

[peacetalksforall]

41. I think we're learning that the easiest feeling that can be raised and

sustained is hate, especially when combined with non-familiarity and fear. And when combined with the lack of opportunity to educate the head so that it can change the heart.

If you never leave your state or your county, it is easy to fear.

Two of the most excellent programs in this country for decades hav been student exchange and sister cities, but it may not have affected most people. But thousands of us have traveled. Americans are culturally defecient in general and have been hammered with the impressions that we are ultra-superior.

Well, we should face the facts. Making prisoners masturbate and ignoring every cultural sensitivity of countries and the general inhumanity and dropping bombs on them with delight is not superior.

It just shows hate, fear, isolation.

[sinkingfeeling]

48. I think that the answer is "yes".

[leftofthedial]

51. It's about damn time someone put a stop to this

things have been going downhill ever since they let in the English

[Bridget Burke]

58. Yes. Let's look at the career of John Tanton.

John Tanton is widely recognized as the leading figure in the anti-immigration and "official English" movements in the United States. Initially, Tanton's public policy advocacy work was driven by his commitment to zero population growth and environmental conservation. By the late 1970s, however, this concern about the environment and population growth evolved into a crusade against immigration flows into the United States, particularly from Latin American and Caribbean nations. At the time that the New Right, Christian Right, and neoconservative political tendencies were mobilizing new constituencies against center-left politics in the United States, Tanton played a central role in mobilizing backlash sentiment against immigrants. Tapping his base in environmental and population control organizations such as the Sierra Club, National Audubon Society, and Zero Population Growth, Tanton in 1979 cofounded what has become the most influential anti-immigrant policy institute in the nation: Federation for American Immigration Reform (FAIR). In 1983, he also cofounded the most influential "official English" or English-only organization, U.S. English.

Today, Tanton stands in the center of a web of anti-immigrant and official English groups. As the founder and publisher of Social Contract Press, Tanton has published books that have helped shaped a nationalist ideology focused on the threat of immigrants to the white, English-speaking population. Social Contract books also stoke fears about immigrants taking over the United States, with research that highlights the rapid rise of Spanish-speaking residents and related socioeconomic problems, while ignoring research that points to the positive contributions of immigrants. In addition to FAIR, where he still is a board member, Tanton has been a central player in an array of anti-immigrant, nationalist groups and institutes, including Pro English, U.S. Inc., Center for Immigration Studies (CIS), U.S. English, and Numbers USA. Funding for these and other organizations in which Tanton is a key figure, often flows through the organization, U.S. Inc.

According to Tolerance.org, a project of the Southern Poverty Law Center: "The organized anti-immigration 'movement' is almost entirely the handiwork of one man, Michigan activist John. H. Tanton." ...

Along with a few other FAIR board members, in the early 1980s Tanton founded a nationalist organization called WITAN-short for the Old English term "witenagemot," meaning "council of wise men."

http://rightweb.irc-online.org/profile/1360

He began with a concern for population growth but moved into anti-immigration. Some of the groups connected with him seem "sane & reasonable" & others are blatantly racist & xenophobic.

We find many links to propaganda supplied by Tanton associates at DU.

The SPLC has the "memo" from Tanton to WITAN: www.splcenter.org/intel/intelreport/article.jsp?sid=125

[mdmc]

61. r

:kick:

[Asgaya Dihi]

62. None

"Have we really made any progress in terms of overcoming prejudice since the Civil Rights movement of the 1960's?"

No, the 60's were our high water mark and we've done nothing but backslide since. We make a big show of being a nation of equal opportunity, but take a look at these stats and tell me what they say to you. When it was in our face we cared, when it was less obvious we stopped caring. The problem didn't change, if anything it got worse. I've got charts showing the rate of prison growth over the years too if you're interested. Roughly a match with population growth for decades, then explosive growth which ended up at the following.

http://www.prisonsucks.com/

[proud2BlibKansan]

64. yes

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

66. Yes. But it's dressed up as "concern" for the working class

and "security".

“The whole aim of practical politics is to keep the populace alarmed (and hence clamorous to be led to safety) by menacing it with an endless series of hobgoblins, all of them imaginary.” H.L. Mencken

[El Fuego]

69. Isn't your hatred of "White People" a disgusting display of racism?

You say "...a convenient excuse that enables White People to exercise their prejudice and desire to keep everyone else down?"

So, you've issued a fatwa against White People, demonized "White People" categorically as evil group (They're trying to keep you down! Destroy them!), uttered a rallying cry to unite "good people" against "White People"?

WHAT'S MORE PREJUDICED THAN THAT?

The real dirty little secret around here is that I am seeing plenty of hateful racism, but it's all directed at "White People."

[Asgaya Dihi]

71. I'm not seeing that

For what it's worth I'm white and don't see that in most of what's been said, certainly not in the first post. Saying that whites tend to avoid a lot of worse things that hit minorities doesn't make all whites racist, responsible, or even aware of it. It's a simple observation.

If our prison system looked with whites like it does with blacks, how do you think we'd react? One in eight young black men between 25-29 behind bars as we speak. It's not us though, so we aren't aware and the press doesn't care. Retirement communities in Florida flood and we're on the spot right away and increasing the aid, N.O. floods and we send in riot troops and the national guard, turn people looking for food and water into dangerous looters. A pretty white girl disappears from a resort and we hear all about it for months, even when there's nothing to report. Would we have even heard if she hadn't been pretty and white, a good subject for the camera?

All racism isn't intended, and all of us aren't responsible for it. A lot is simply us relating to people more like us, it's natural. But it's still there, in effect even if not by intent.

[Bridget Burke]

78. I don't see hatred in that statement.

I, too, have seen a lot of racism & xenophobia surrounding immigration. And mostly NOT directed at us melanin deficient folk.

[Armstead]

85. I'm as white as they come

Blonde haired blue eyed WASP.

I stand by what I said about many white people -- not all -- who ae angrier about the increasing prevalence of diferent non-whites in society. I know people who you scratch the surface, and that's not far below it.

[NNN0LHI]

73. I have noticed the same people I know personally...

...who want the Mexicans out of here want to continue "helping" the Iraqis over there.

Odd isn't it?

Don

[Cleita]

77. Even if they send all the Mexicans home, estimates are that

of the 12 million undocumented immigrants who are here only 20% are Mexicans. How about the other 80%? Or are they ethnically acceptable undocumented workers?

Enquiring minds want to know.

[spanone]

75. It's called diversionary and divisionary news.

[Ms. Clio]

81. That is what I am beginnng to believe

Since nobody who complains about "illegals" ever has much more than FAIR, CIS, Malkin, the Minutemen, or some personal anecdotes to back up their irrational statements. No matter how many times you point out that they are focusing on the wrong enemy, they continue to post the same crap. And they often reveal themselves so clearly with their wildly-exaggerated figures about the number of undocumented immigrants, obsession with English, claims that the U.S. is being "invaded," and so forth.

[Stinky The Clown]

83. I ******absolutely****** think its racism ..... or maybe a better term ...

... would be 'ethnicism'

Cuz ya see ...... the 'Mexicans' ..... they're Caucasians. True, some have some mixed ethnicity, but essentially, they're white.

I dare say if I ever waddled my fat Italian ass across that southern border, even at a station, I'd get stopped and crotch sniffed like anyone else.

Damn right its racism. Vile, base, racism.