Quit Torturing the Language on Abortion

[omega minimo]

Here is all you need to know about the rights of women to self-determination.

(edit: Forget the convoluted "framing" and word games!!!!!! "The principle that underlies a pro-choice position are the principles of dignity and privacy for women." "And the right to choose, the right of the individual woman to be guaranteed, to be free from the government and political interference in making this decision is a right that is embraced by the majority of Americans." IT'S SIMPLE.)



You can be a feminist and oppose the act of abortion on moral and ethical, religious, on personal grounds; absolutely can be.

And, in fact, many people who are pro-choice in terms of their beliefs that the policies of this nation should respect the diversity of views on these issues related to pregnancy and childbearing, abortion, and reproductive matters, that there is a diversity of views and they are informed by one’s values, as they are mine.

...you can be absolutely anti-abortion, if you will, and pro-choice; believing that women ultimately, not the government, not Dennis Hastert and Tom DeLay and Bill Frist, but women themselves must determine the course of their lives, and central to that determining the course of their lives is determining when and under what circumstances they will become mothers.

Because the thing that most women want is to be successful at mothering. And the first ingredient is being able to determine when that time is right and not being forced by the government and by politicians or by judges to bear a child under circumstances of one—not of one’s choosing.

The principle that underlies a pro-choice position are the principles of dignity and privacy for women.

Abortion rights and reproductive freedom and choice needs to be seen in the larger context of individual liberties, of women determining the course of their lives and having control over their lives.

(In) the ‘92 election when President Clinton was elected. The House and the Senate were under control of Democrats. The political pundits were writing the obituary of the right wing and the conservative movement, and you didn’t see the conservatives sort of back away from their values or their principles.

They didn’t give up and start publicly talking about changing their language. What they did is they stayed focused on their values and that’s what we need to do.

And the right to choose, the right of the individual woman to be guaranteed, to be free from the government and political interference in making this decision is a right that is embraced by the majority of Americans.

There may be different views on the individual act of abortion, but in terms of who should make the decision, whether it’s government and politicians or women, there is universal acceptance that women must make...

Could I speak to this “abortion on demand”?  I have to comment about this because I hear it over and over and over again.

First of all, I ran a Planned Parenthood affiliate for years. I have been with women who have faced the decision about whether or not to have an abortion.

I have never heard a woman demand to have an abortion.

I think that that language reveals the lack of respect that those who oppose abortion have for women who face crises.

We’ve got to get rid of that language.

And Roe does not guarantee women a right to abortion without restrictions.

It balanced rights of women to have an abortion in the earlier stages of pregnancy, and allows the states to restrict in the post-viability, roughly last trimester.

:kick:

Comments from interview with Kate Michaelman, author of “With Liberty and Justice for All” on Meet The Press

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/10721401/page/3 /

[iamjoy]

1. Anti Criminilization

terms like Pro-Life, Pro-Choice, Anti-Abortion, Pro-Abortion are inflammatory and misleading.

Anti-Criminilization, Pro-Criminilization strips away the rhetoric and sound less contradictory than "I personally think abortion is murder, but it should be a woman's choice" Unfortunately, too many politicians in a futile and stupid attempt to ahve it both ways say things very close to that.

Anti-Criminilization means there are other ways of reducing the number of abortions.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

3. Thing Is I Pretty Much Feel As Your Quote States.

I figure let the higher power judge them. It isn't for me to judge, though I am under most circumstances against it. But even that firm belief doesn't give me the right whatsoever to impose it on others or demand they follow suit with my ethical viewpoint.

[omega minimo]

5. Did you skip the Keep It Simple part?

"...many people who are pro-choice in terms of their beliefs
that the policies of this nation
should respect the diversity of views on these issues
related to pregnancy and childbearing, abortion, and reproductive matters,
that there is a diversity of views and they are informed by one’s values....

"...you can be absolutely anti-abortion, if you will, and pro-choice;
believing that women ultimately, not the government...
but women themselves must determine the course of their lives,
and central to that determining the course of their lives
is determining when and under what circumstances they will become mothers."


You post: "sound less contradictory than "I personally think abortion is murder, but it should be a woman's choice" Unfortunately, too many politicians in a futile and stupid attempt to ahve it both ways say things very close to that."

Her statements-- and position-- are not contradictory at all: you understand the rights of others to make personal decisions that you might not choose for yourself.


You post: "terms like Pro-Life, Pro-Choice, Anti-Abortion, Pro-Abortion are inflammatory and misleading."

Don't know who told you that, but it sure smacks of Limbaugh or another Right Wing hatemonger. "Inflammatory"?

You post "Anti-Criminilization means there are other ways of reducing the number of abortions."

No it doesn't. "Anti-Criminalization" is meaningless.

[iamjoy]

7. Sounds Like Limbaugh?

Saying these terms are inflammatory and misleading is not quoting Limbaugh and Right Wing hatemongers - but it is because of them.

I get annoyed whenever I am referred to as "Pro-Abortion" because I do not believe the government should restrict our reproductive freedoms. I get doubly annoyed when I am called that by people who have claimed the "Pro-Life" label even though they support the death penalty and/or policies that increase the number of children living in poverty.

I am Pro-Life. I am Anti-Abortion. I support a wide range of reproductive freedoms. I favor policies and programs which make it easier for women (families) to keep and raise children. While I believe we must work to reduce the number of abortions, I don't believe outlawing it is the answer. That is what I mean by anti-criminilization. But, the Right Wing Hatemongers and Main Stream media have given me a label like I think willfully terminating a pregnancy is a good idea.

[omega minimo]

8. "A good idea" for who?

"But, the Right Wing Hatemongers and Main Stream media have given me a label like I think willfully terminating a pregnancy is a good idea."

You may not think it's "a good idea" for yourself (if you're a woman) or your family, yet still comprehend the importance of people having the right to make that decision for themselves-- not by decree of government.

"I am Pro-Life. I am Anti-Abortion. I support a wide range of reproductive freedoms. I favor policies and programs which make it easier for women (families) to keep and raise children. While I believe we must work to reduce the number of abortions, I don't believe outlawing it is the answer. That is what I mean by anti-criminilization."

Being against criminalization is-- well, it's a start, I guess. (Meaning wasn't as obvious as you might think for a catchphrase). Remember, this battle has already been fought and won. Being pro-woman and for woman's rights would be one way to achieve the objectives you recommend.

The whole point is respecting the rights of others to privacy and autonomy, free of government intrusion, including on decisions that you may not choose for yourself. Hence the relevance of the terms "pro-choice" and "right to choose." These are direct and clear, anything but misleading.

Kate Michelman has broken it down as simply and lucidly as anyone I have ever seen. Please read and consider carefully:

(quote)
You can (support women’s rights) oppose the act of abortion on moral and ethical, religious, on personal grounds; absolutely can be.

And, in fact, many people who are pro-choice in terms of their beliefs that the policies of this nation should respect the diversity of views on these issues related to pregnancy and childbearing, abortion, and reproductive matters,

that there is a diversity of views and they are informed by one’s values, as they are mine.

...you can be absolutely anti-abortion, if you will, and pro-choice;

believing that women ultimately, not the government, not Dennis Hastert and Tom DeLay and Bill Frist,

but women themselves must determine the course of their lives,

and central to that determining the course of their lives

is determining when and under what circumstances they will become mothers.

The principle that underlies a pro-choice position are the principles of dignity and privacy for women.

Abortion rights and reproductive freedom and choice needs to be seen in the larger context of individual liberties, of women determining the course of their lives and having control over their lives.

And the right to choose, the right of the individual woman to be guaranteed, to be free from the government and political interference in making this decision is a right that is embraced by the majority of Americans.

There may be different views on the individual act of abortion, but in terms of who should make the decision, whether it’s government and politicians or women, there is universal acceptance that women must make...

[CTyankee]

2. Hi Omega Minimo

I remember you from the recent DU "poll" on being prochoice or prolife that really ticked me off.Something definitely weird there and so unhelpful in this dialogue.

Thanks for this. I did see this interview somewhere with Kate Michaelman. Hers is a great voice and she is so right about standing firm on our values. I use her points over and over until I am blue in the face. Now it's just going to be "dignity and privacy of women" when I talk to antichoicers. I will NEVER walk away from an argument on this subject!

[omega minimo]

4. Yeah, polls can be tricky........

That one sure was.

Kate Michealman made the points clearly and simply. The folks who think jumping through hoops is better cuz they're NEW AND IMPROVED hoops are being suckered and sold a guidebook for how to overthink issues and outthink themselves with the MISTAKEN ASSUMPTION that everyone ELSE is the idiot who needs to be FOOLED into understanding issues the way they ought to. What a buncha bullshit.

She breaks it down clearly and simply. I hoped these points would be useful for Dems and DUers and might even clear up some of the endless bs rhetoric wars we see here.

Playing word games is a distraction from the issues and a popular(ized) way of avoiding dealing with the

FACT THAT WOMEN HAVE RIGHTS.

For the folks who don't get it: When it is YOUR body and privacy that is under assualt, you are not going to be so fascinated by word games and mind games. You're prolly gonna wanna TELL IT LIKE IT IS.

:bounce: :bounce:

[omega minimo]

6. Funny:Ya'll LOVE discussing this from man's point of view, but not woman's

:crazy:

[Cleita]

9. Yep, I wonder if those legislators would consider walking

in on a woman taking a leak in the ladies' room. Of course not. It's a gross invasion of privacy. This is no different. It's a woman's right to privacy for her to decide if she will take a pregnancy to term and no one else has a right to force her to do otherwise.

[omega minimo]

10. All hinges on respect for women: reason NOT to avoid women's empowerment

Reason not to DISINHERIT the language of choice that exists because of the history of the struggle.

Why are these "concerned" people trying to erase language and history and the presence of WOMEN in the equation? As if support for choice depends on disassociating the issue from WOMEN?! :crazy:


(Hi Cleita-- always nice to see you :hi: )