What naive person believes Bush only spied on al Qaeda messages?

[kentuck]

Only Bush apologists would even suggest such a thought. However, that is what the Bush White House is saying. They were only spying on incoming calls from al Qaeda suspects. Then they will say they can't show any evidence because it is top secret. They are lying.

[madaboutharry]

1. This is really an outrage.

The fact that they would put this out serves as evidence of the depth of disrespect they have for the American people and the depth of disrespect they have for this country.

[Hardrada]

2. They aren't scared of us anymore. That's why.

We have given them no reason to fear our wrath so far.

[TahitiNut]

3. Who believes that 56,000 Iraqiis killed were "insurgents"?

Judge, jury, and executioner ... that's the fascists. All their 'arguments' have a place: court. But they bypassed the court. I can only conclude they LIE.

[Quakerfriend]

4. Well, I know they were spying on me.

Several times daily the DoD would show up on my firewall.

And, that's almost laughable. I am a middle-aged, stay at home mom who just happens to be Quaker.

I think that it's likely that all of us on DU are being 'monitored'.

[Benhurst]

5. Well, to be fair, we all know Quakers are highly likely

to be "terrists." In fact most I know don't even support The Leader, sometimes going even so far as to speak out against his agenda for world peace and prosperity.

That Al Kaeda guy doesn't scare me; but I'm terrified of Quakers.

:scared: :scared: :scared:

[tinfoilinfor2005]

6. I see you Quaking in your boots...

Get it, Quaking? Hahahahaha...ok, I apologize.:+

[Benhurst]

17. LOL! Why apologize?

:hi:

[oasis]

26. Quaker Meeting Houses were monitored. WITHIN the U.S. (eom)

[AZBlue]

7. The same ones that voted for him in '00 and '04. (n/t)

[ChairmanAgnostic]

8. ME! ME! And I believe in Santa Claus, Easter bunny, Great pumpkin,

Tooth Fairy and Bigfoot.

Prove to me that I am wrong.

[SomewhereOutThere424]

9. I'm amazed people believe that

If he was so certain they were affiliated to al-queda, wouldn't they be under arrest? The entire point of wire taps is because you really have no clue. It isn't like they only suspect 3 people in the whole country...since when has it become optional to need to think in this country? >.<

[ChairmanAgnostic]

43. no, not under arrest. But yes, hidden away in a prison.

arrest means that you are charged with a crime. The Bush people don't bother with that anymore.

Being put in prison, under this administration's way of thinking, is simply a time out.

[sandnsea]

10. I believe we have no proof

And once again, until we do it's stupid to run around with half-cocked accusations. What he's done is bad enough. Don't muddy it up with accusations we can't prove.

[kentuck]

13. We do have proof that...

he's lied his ass off before. Should we just take his word for it?

[sandnsea]

14. Focus on what we know

One of these day some people around here will figure out the difference between fact and speculation. Has nothing to do with trusting Bush, has to do with getting from A to Z, and knowing that you facts B-Y are what will get you there.

[kentuck]

15. But, we should investigate ?

Do you agree? To find out the truth that American citizens have not been spied upon? And does your gut tell you Bush is telling the truth?

[sandnsea]

28. That's how we get the facts

B-Y. By investigating. And we should scream those facts from the rooftops, starting with the fact that he broke the law when he didn't go to the FISA court for warrants. I frankly don't give a shit about anybody's guts because intuition is not relevant for impeachment or anything else.

[kentuck]

30. OK. I agree. Let's get the facts.

And we'll do it in the most non-partisan way. Not as a Democrat or a Republican but as an American, committed to fighting for the Constitution because that is what protects us all, and no man is above the law, even if he is a recovering alcoholic paranoid schizophrenic megalomaniac. We are not afraid of George W Bush. We are afraid of the 50 million people that are so misguided as to follow this Elmer Gantry incompetent.

[sandnsea]

34. I'm not afraid of anybody

And I'm certainly not afraid of being called a partisan. But an idiot with no facts, that's a whole other ballgame and I'm rather sick of having to deal with that baggage.

[kentuck]

35. Be more specific...

Which "no facts" are you talking about?

[sandnsea]

37. Oh jeez

It's okay to say the "f" word. For starters. That anybody voted for a war. That Bush is behind 9/11. That there are no terrorists. That bin laden is currently a CIA operation. Shall I go on?

[kentuck]

38. Then we would have a lot less discussion...

Yes, there are a lot of conspiracy theories, but it's the journey as much as the destination. Most people are only looking for the avenue to prove their theories. And it's their government as much as it is yours and mine. They do know that we went to war on lies and thousands have now died. Those are facts. Many people believe the Bush White House is lying now and that is why they are inclined to not believe anything that might springboard across the lips of George W Bush or Dick Cheney until they can see the facts for themselves. When facts are put in a dark secret room, sometimes we have to search for them. That is why people speculate.

[sandnsea]

40. Speculation doesn't impeach a President

People can talk about whatever they want. It's when they start making demands on Congress to accept speculation as fact that I have a problem.

[kentuck]

41. I agree that we should not make demands without facts...

But I believe we should aggressively pursue the facts. We do know from their history that they are dishonest, do we not?

[sandnsea]

42. Good

When Congress comes back, support them as they expose the facts and begin investigations, and don't attack them for not making accusations they can't back up.

[wtmusic]

11. Even if he did

what's dangerous is the precedent.

[onehandle]

12. I do. But only if "al Qaeda" is esperanto for "Democrats". nt

[Lisa]

16. Me! He promised he'd give me a real baby unicorn as compensation (n/t)

[many a good man]

18. The funny thing is ...

everybody KNOWS they're not stupid enough to use phones. They figured that one out long. Messages are sent by courier or encrypted in zero day websites. Talking over the phone is the least likely method of communication.

[Cleita]

19. The same naive person who believes he's

clearing brush, during the rainy season.

[kentuck]

21. It's just one big facade after another...

isn't it? :)

[Cleita]

22. You know it, kentuck.n/t

[Bouncy Ball]

20. Here's the thing you need to tell ANYONE who

believes bush only spied on al-Queda messages:

The Founding Fathers wrote the Constitution the way they did because they were SICK to death of kings and petty tyrants telling them "TRUST ME."

We don't operate on "trust me." We operate on checks and balances, the Bill of Rights, the Constitution.

Benjamin Franklin: "Those who would sacrifice liberty for security deserve neither."

Period.

[Lisa]

23. Excellent summary!

If "Trust me" were good enough, who would ever need a Constitution? Or elections, come to think of it.

And it's not some exercise in political theory. Countries which have had lengthy experiences with absolute monarchies (the ultimate in "trust me", otherwise known as "by divine right"), like England and France, decided that this just doesn't work.

[Bouncy Ball]

24. Exactamundo!!!

You said much more concisely than I did. It is my downfall, LOL.

[EFerrari]

29. And this is the only talking point they have.

Did have.

[johnaries]

25. Actually, here's a thread that I thnk speaks volumes:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x5654187

"The (FISA) court said the policy established by Ashcroft, who cited the Patriot Act for his authority, shortcut the Constitution and FISA by replacing existing surveillance requirements used for criminal prosecution with the more lax FISA requirements."

Not international security, but domestic criminal prosecution.

And considering the lower standards for probable cause required by FISA and that more warrants were modified and rejected under Bush than under every other President combined....

It raises serious questions about exactly WHO Bush had under surveillance.

[kentuck]

27. Thanks to the nashuaadvocate !

That summarizes it quite well. Great job!

<snip>
These are the six months Congressional investigators should focus on to determine whether Bush's uncertainty over FISA litigation may have prompted him to authorize wiretaps which, by their very nature, would have no "information-sharing" oversight--that is, by authorizing wiretaps in which one party was a domestic party, the President was focusing his attention on that subset of FISA cases in which information-sharing between the intelligence community and civilian law enforcement was most crucial, and for which the FISA Court had given the Bush Administration the most grief. So did Bush issue his Executive Order to protect Americans from sudden and unexpected terrorist attacks, as he now claims, or to aid civilian (i.e. domestic) prosecutors in their prosecution of American citizens suspected of having engaged in criminal conspiracies on American soil, against the clear language and directives of the FISA statute?].

[hopeisaplace]

33. You said it well - what I've been thinking too...

"And considering the lower standards for probable cause required by FISA and that more warrants were modified and rejected under Bush than under every other President combined....

It raises serious questions about exactly WHO Bush had under surveillance"

__________________

Must be a lot of people thinking this way these days.

[BuyingThyme]

31. How many believe he spied on ANY al Qaeda messages?

[kentuck]

32. That may be the better question.

I wonder how many thousands of "terrorists" they caught with their most modern and elaborate eavesdropping methods?

[Jara sang]

36. I do.

But I don't have time for that now. I'm working on setting up a toll booth operation on the Brooklyn Bridge which I just bought from a travelling salesman. I am going to reinvest the revenue from my bridge operation in prime swamp real estate in Florida.

[robbedvoter]

39. here's a message I intercepted:

> http://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/0,,5-2001365686,00.html
>
> TUESDAY OCTOBER 23 2001
> Bin Laden family to end ties to Carlyle
> FROM CHRIS AYRES IN NEW YORK
> THE family of Osama bin Laden is close to ending its relationship
> with the Carlyle Group, the US investment group backed by George
> Bush Snr, the former President, and John Major, the former Prime
> Minister.
>
> It is understood that Carlyle Group and the Saudi Binladin Group,
> the Middle Eastern conglomerate owned by the family of bin Laden,
> have decided to part company by “mutual consent”.