I am of Italian descent. Why don't I feel any allegiance toward Italy?

[NNN0LHI]

As a matter of fact run a DU search and you will see I was one of the most proficient posters here at condemning Italy's Berscolini regime over the years.

I would like to think I played some small part in removing that little Mussolini clone from power.

Why do some Americans put another countries welfare above our own country?

Whats is that saying about not being able to serve two masters?

Don

[trotsky]

1. Good luck, Don.

If I were a theist, I'd say Godspeed, too.

[jobycom]

2. Same reason I don't feel much allegiance to Zimbabwe

It's been a long time since my ancestors stepped out of the Olduvai Gorge...

Personally, I think loyalty to any country is suspicious. I have loyalty to the American ideals, and of course I have a loyalty to my country in the sense that I want to see it protected and functioning as well as possible. But I wouldn't say I have any loyalty to it, in the sense that I would support it no matter what it did.

I'm a liberal, I don't serve any masters. Oopps, boss is coming, must go!

[tabasco]

9. You sound very much like the smart people that started this Nation.

They opposed blind loyalty to anybody, and believed the government had to be loyal to the People, not the other way around.

I don't think they would recognize the plutocracy we have now.

[jobycom]

14. That's because

I chose to learn more from them than from most living politicians. Or maybe that works the other way, I don't know. Anyway, to me America is an ideal, not a place or a people, and the people controlling the place right now have lost the ideal.

[LostinVA]

35. Blind loyalty is a scary, scary thing

In any relationship, and at any level in that relationship....

[MADem]

3. I am not of Italian descent, and I feel enormous allegiance toward Italy!!

However, I take your point, and want to note that my allegiance is towards the PEOPLE of that nation, not the government (which is always a problem, given they change it like they're changing their socks!).

I lived there for years; great folks, great food, great lifestyle.

I don't know the answer to your question, though.

I think most American people have never been in the thick of a bad situation, be it a war, an uprising, or what have you, and they can't see the full picture or understand why certain measures must be taken. They get distracted by propaganda and side dish issues, and can't take the long view.

If the enemy was coming down their lane, they'd have a change of heart, I suspect.

[Poll_Blind]

4. There's no way to shame an Italian into being a sayanim ("helper")

It's a word which has so much meaning it cannot be easily defined. It includes cultural, historical and psychological connotations. While the original context is a military one, it has also been used by the conservative movement in the Diaspora to shame Jews living outside Israel (inside Israel differing opinion is much more widely-tolerated) into toeing the Israeli government line in the name of supporting Jews period. It's the other side of the coin to a liberal Jew being criticized as self-loathing (this happens on DU quite a bit even, one long-time poster infamous for his frequent use of anti-Semitism or "Self-Loathing" insults at liberal Jews who applied the same liberal standards to Israel) for criticizing a conservative Israeli government.

  Diasporic guilt is used as a political leveraging tool against Jews living in the Diaspora. No Italian is going to look at you, as an Italian-American and seriously ask "What's wrong with you? Why haven't you moved back to Italy?". However, Jews in the Diaspora are sometimes made to feel as though they are not "whole" unless they make the aliyah ("ascension"), by moving to Israel. This can be exploited on a number of levels (and has been, greatly) to manipulate political thought outside of Israel.

  There is no easy analog. Not only that but the subject itself is very complex though examples of it should be easy to find. For instance, there was an Israeli official in London about 8 months or so ago who said, essentially, that the Jews there were falling prey to anti-Semitism (a hint at that "self-Loathing" slur) by disagreeing with the Israeli government's actions in the Occupied Palestinian Territories. To call a Jew "Self-loathing", again, is an insult there is no easy translation for but it cuts very, very deeply.

PB

[TahitiNut]

24. That's an excellent point.

The tyranny of alienation is infectious, isn't it?

I really wish we'd accentuate oour common heritage as human beings above all else. I really wish we'd have more reliance on (and development of) empathy and less in "cultural experience." (My grandparents were Norwegian immigrants, but that does NOT confer unto me some special appreciation of THEIR experience of alienation that would transcend what empathy might afford anyone.)

[treestar]

27. It must be particularly nasty to have it used against you when

you're Jewish.

When we become aware that there are people living in Israel itself who oppose this, it is particularly nauseating for American Jews to use it against anyone who is not Jewish.

[Guy Fawkes]

5. For Jews, it has a lot to do with religion.

It is the goal, religiously, of any Jew to visit Israel. There are programs that send hundreds of Jews to Israel every year (usually Summer programs for students). If one can't make it, there are even programs that will get dirt from Israel put in a grave, so that the person has- in the end- visited Israel in a way.

While Jews have different opinions on the current situation, the destruction of Israel certainly isn't an option.

[Cameron27]

6. I'm of Italian descent

I'm going to suppose you mean Jewish Duer's supporting the removal of Hezbollah from Lebanon. How is that any different from you condemning Berscolini?

Nasrallah is one nasty son of a bitch, and it is not serving two masters wanting him and his organization disarmed. You might not agree about the way it's happening, but that's not what you're asking.

[LostinVA]

37. But the OP didn't attack Rome just because some people voted for Berscolin

That's what he means.

[oberliner]

7. "other Americans"

I'm sorry who are these "other Americans" who put another countries welfare about our own country?

[long_green]

8. Typical pap from a self-hating Italian

:sarcasm:

[Poll_Blind]

11. Whoever you are- thank you! You said it all in much...

...fewer words than I did!

PB

[TahitiNut]

10. In the same sense ...

http://journals.democraticunderground.com/TahitiNut/305


When someone sharing one of my demographics is killed/fired/oppressed by someone not sharing that particular demographic characteristic, I don't feel obliged to feel any animosity towards others not sharing that demographic. I also don't feel inclined to band together with others sharing that demographic characteristic, simply because I don't place all of my self-esteem eggs in the basket of that particular demographic. To do so, it seems to me, would be to give more credence to the significance of that demographic and would, in essence, legitimize the insanity/pathology of those who regard it as some reason for all-consuming antipathy. Why would I listen to the voices in their heads?

In my view, it's equally pathological to say/think anything beginning with "all Jews..." and "all men ..." and "all women ..." and "all whites ..." and "all blacks ..." and "all Arabs ..." and "all blonds ..." and "all Hispanics ..." and "all short people..." and so on.

[MyNameGoesHere]

12. because

jeebus says that that other country is the chosen one. And you have to be blindly on their side to ensure that you get to heaven. It all comes back to the worlds biggest propaganda machine king james bible.

[Fredda Weinberg]

13. Because my family tried assimilation

And that family doesn't exist anymore. Oh, you didn't have that kind of history? Then don't think you can understand how we feel.

[Lurking Dem]

15. Well said, Fredda.

Dual loyalty assertions? Where have we heard that before?

[MrTriumph]

18. Many citizens of Lebanon will feel a similar, more immediate sense of loss

x

[Fredda Weinberg]

38. Indeed - and if Jews had started WW II, I might feel differently

Hezbollah was supposed to disarm, like the other ethnic militias. The Lebanese government should be cooperating with Israel to accomplish this.

[MrTriumph]

44. I did not know bombing civilians was an action plan to help.

x

[Fredda Weinberg]

47. Israel is tracing the incoming bombs to their source

And a nation/state has no choice but to protect her citizens.

[MrTriumph]

52. So that's why entire city blocks in Lebanon are destroyed.

Are you suggesting Israel blast Lebanon completely off the map, Fredda? We are talking about 100s of civilian deaths.

[Ms. Clio]

55. it's such a loathesome argument

simply vile.

[Fredda Weinberg]

66. Death is loathsome too

So when Hezbollah crossed the border to engage Israeli forces and starting lobbing rockets at Haifa, Israel had no choice but to respond. The Lebanese people, through their government, could try reining in the militia, but allowed them to keep their arms when others complied with the UN resolution.

So what's vile in this situation? Everything, but life doesn't always give us easy choices.

[Ms. Clio]

67. "The Lebanese people, through their government"

Their government doesn't have that kind of power. It was an extremely fragile year-old creation, not a powerful nation-state.

[Fredda Weinberg]

69. So what was Israel supposed to do?

If you concede that the Lebanese government is unable to stop Hezbollah from attacking across the border, are you suggesting that Israel simply ignore casualties?

[Ms. Clio]

72. The U.S. invaded Afghanistan to destroy the Taliban

did I just miss all the parts where they blew up all the infrastructure in the entire country and bombed Kabul to bits?

On edit: And how is that project working out for them, lately?

[Fredda Weinberg]

79. Last time I checked, bombing supply lines was a legitimate act

If the guerillas are using cell phones to communicate - again, is Israel supposed to ignore what she can do to make their job more difficult?

[Ms. Clio]

80. wtf does that have to do with the question I asked?

You know you cannot answer it.

[Fredda Weinberg]

83. Sure I can

The Taliban weren't concentrated in the capital - and Afghanistan never had much infrastructure to start with ... it wasn't the Paris of the Middle East.

How's it going lately? Not well, but perhaps that should give you some insight into the region's intractable problems.

[Ms. Clio]

85. Hizbollah is not "concentrated" in the entire city of Beirut

and again, why no destruction of the infrastructure of the entire country, as is occurring in Lebanon?

[Fredda Weinberg]

89. Hezbollah has their headquarters there, just as the PLO did n/t

[Ms. Clio]

90. using your "logic," the U.S should have levelled Kabul, then

[Fredda Weinberg]

92. No ... but we did bomb Kandahar

Where the Taliban had their headquarters.

[Ms. Clio]

98. Kabul was the capital and the Taliban were the government

again I ask, did the U.S. destroy the entire infrastructure (such as it was) of Afghanistan in the pursuit of the Taliban?

[Fredda Weinberg]

105. Of course, we did

U.S. and British airstrikes have cut off the Taliban air supply routes to the north, leaving the Taliban only a long circular route through western Afghanistan to supply the north, Abdullah said.

"They are being stripped off, to a large extent, from air transportation means as a result of today's airstrikes. This will make it even more difficult for the Taliban," Abdullah told CNN.

http://archives.cnn.com/2001/WORLD/asiapcf/central/10/09/ret.afghan.alliance/

[Ms. Clio]

107. that is not destroying the infrastructure of the entire country

and again, you are conflating Hizbollah and the Lebanese nation-state.

[Fredda Weinberg]

110. And once again, you exaggerate

I've had enough correcting you for one day.

[Ms. Clio]

111. And once again, you have no good answers

Not surprised you choose to abandon an argument you are losing.

[Fredda Weinberg]

68. I haven't seen indiscriminate bombing yet

I understand you think Israelis are monsters who attack their neighbors without provocation - but don't project your fantasies on me.

[Ms. Clio]

71. and don't project your asinine old chestnuts at me

"You haven't seen" because you have deliberately avoided looking. Maybe you need to do more reading, and less projecting. Or take a good look at the picture in my sig line.

[Fredda Weinberg]

81. It's war and it's ugly

But I've been paying close attention - remember, it's my homeland at war and the only living relatives on my father's side (distant cousins, but they're still family) live there.

Keep a civil tongue in your head or I'll alert the mods.

[Ms. Clio]

82. you had better do the same with your own tongue

I'm not the one painting you with a broad brush, although I am certainly tempted to do so.

[Fredda Weinberg]

94. You just resort to obscenities to another DUer, so I remind you

There are rules here.

[Ms. Clio]

100. I don't need any reminders, and what "obscenities?"

Asking "what the fuck" is not "directing" at anyone. Nice try at victimization and authoritarianism, however.

I've been here a helluva lot longer than you.

[Fredda Weinberg]

108. Wrong again

Your profile says you've been here since 2001 ... I arrived in 2002.

[Ms. Clio]

109. Since March of 2001

more than long enough that I don't need any condescending reminders about the rules.

[Ms. Clio]

54. yes,all those television stations and ambulances and minivans n/t

Too bad Lebanon the nation-state is utterly powerless to protect its own citizens.

[Skidmore]

29. I imagine that Pol Pot's victims.

the Armenians, the Rwandans, the Bengalis, the Afghanis under the Russian occupation, the Kurds, those in Darfur and many other peoples can claim that kind of history. The Jews are not the only people to suffer an attempt at genocide.

[Poll_Blind]

36. Assimilation = Extermination, eh?

Assimilation is just that, assimilation. If you need help, as it appears you do, on understanding what that word really means I highly recommend Merriam-Webster. Definition #4, to be exact:

4 : the process of receiving new facts or of responding to new situations in conformity with what is already available to consciousness

  Assimilation is not conversion. This crucial difference, I feel, is lost in your understanding of the word.

PB

[Lurking Dem]

41. So assimilating includes

being treated as dhimmi? Special taxes? Not being allowed to practice your religion? Having to wear self identifying clothing? Living in the Pale? Being refused citizenship? Pograms? What, exactly?

[Poll_Blind]

43. You're still using your twisted definition of assimilation, not an...

...actual one. Since it's posted to save you the trip to Merriam-Webster I can only assume that reading it or trying to reconcile it with your own was considered too much work.

  I'm terribly sorry, there is nothing more I can do to help you.

PB

[Lurking Dem]

45. To absorb or integrate

into a wider society or culture.

[Poll_Blind]

49. ...in conformity with what is already available to consciousness" n/t

PB

[Fredda Weinberg]

48. There's nothing twisted about a conventional meaning

I don't have to conform to your dictionary definition, when we've used the term consistently since we learned English. Get over it.

[Fredda Weinberg]

46. Don't assume - you demonstrate your ignorance

No, I didn't mean conversion - I mean the process by which Jews felt more German than the Germans themselves. When the time came, the assimilated Jews were rounded up just like those who stuck to ancient manners of dress or language.

Which is why we feel such an attachment to Israel today - despite our assimilation into American society. I don't expect an Italian-American to feel the same way.

[JerseygirlCT]

56. For too long, for too many Jews, EXISTENCE meant

extermination.

The Holocaust didn't just happen. It had been happening, for hundreds and hundreds of years. Entire populations thrown out of countries. Pograms.

Jewish history is full of the threat of extermination. I can see why it's a little hard to get past that fear.

[ThomCat]

39. I have never bought into the idea

'you have to be one of us to understand.' That's just a way of saying, 'I won't listen to any other opinions, and I won't bother to explain or defend my own.'

My family is Jewish, and came here one step ahead of one of a large bloody pogrom in european history. Entire branches of my family that stayed behind simply do not exist anymore according to everything we've been able to find. So what do you understand about our history that I don't?

I do not support most of what Israel has been doing supposedly in the name of defense. Yet I keep hearing other Jews say that I don't understand. The only think I don't understand is how people can be so invested in one side that they overlook and rationalize attrocities, and then demonize all the people on the other side.

[Fredda Weinberg]

51. Who's demonizing? Just you

What I understand, because my father survived Hitler's labor camps, is what life was like for our family in the years running up to the Holocaust. You may feel safe here, but he always saw the same trendlines - and wanted his children prepared as he was for life as a refugee.

That's why we feel the identification we do - and note your lack of empathy ... why should I expect it from anyone else?

[ThomCat]

62. What lack of empathy?

And who am I demonizing?

It's because of my empathy that I can't support what Israel is doing. I empathize with the people they're starving, persecuting, bombing and robbing of water access.

I Understand our history. You're still insisting that only you understand. I'm not buying it.

I empathize with Israel's need for security, but I can't condone committing attrocities under the false name of defense. I can't condone theft in the name of security. I can't condone mass murder under any circumstances. The people who support Israel no matter what are the ones who lack empathy. That isn't demonizing Israel. Israel is really doing these things.

Demonizing is when you justify what is happening in Lebanon by imagining that they somehow deserve it. Demonizing is when you justify what is happening to Palestinians by imagining that they somehow deserve it.
Demonizong is when you justify whatever Israel does by pretending the victims don't deserve any better.

[Fredda Weinberg]

75. It's not a question of understanding

It's a matter of self-identification. Until you've walked a mile in my shoes, I don't expect you to understand my feelings on the matter.

I've been through a stage similar to the way you feel now - then I saw Israel return the Sinai, come to terms with Jordan and live in peace with at least two of her neighbors. It demonstrated that conditions could be different there - and that someone besides Israel was responsible for the continued hostilities.

When the troops were pulled from Gaza, the Palestinians had a choice - and the violence continued. Who's to blame for that? Nobody? Israel? Or maybe, just maybe ... the madness that began with the Arab nations attacking in '48 en masse hasn't yielded to the reality that Israel will not be pushed into the sea.

[treestar]

16. I demand that the Irish Catholics get enough bombs to defend

themselves from the British!

:sarcasm:

The US should do this to make up to the Irish for providing them a refuge from that conflict!

:sarcasm:

[meti57b]

17. Why do some Americans put another countries welfare above our own country?

I have to assume because of the time frame that you are referring to American citizens who are Jews and their position/opinions on Israel.

With all due respect to both you and the DU guidelines prohibiting allegations of antisemitism, I am going to describe your comments as classic antisemitism. Here's why.

The classic charges leveled at Jews throughout the ages has always been that they are not loyal to the country they were born in, or reside in, or are citizens of. (I add "reside" to the list because Jews were not permitted to be citizens in many countries.)

Suggesting that Jews are not loyal to the country in which they have citizenship, is classic antisemitism.

[treestar]

25. You're letting the past get in the way of understanding the present

The US gives full citizenship to anybody who otherwise qualifies, regardless of ethnicity.

Any Jewish person is safer in the US than in Israel, and they can count on the US to protect them as US citizens, just like any other.

The US does not deserve this particular condemnation.

[cali]

74. Sad

to see any DUer buy express this. That said, I don't think people doing this understand how pernicious and dangerous this kind of thinking is.

[oberliner]

19. Does anyone care that this post...

is clearly implying that American Jews are more loyal to Israel than to the United States?

Does that claim not disturb anyone?

[Lurking Dem]

22. Apparently not.

But there's no antisemitism on DU. :sarcasm:

[Cameron27]

23. Yes it disturbs me a hell of a lot. n/t

[treestar]

28. No it does not imply that

You imply that it implies that to shut everyone up.

What will you do when people are no longer intimidated by the overused accusation of anti-semitism or self-hating? Actually respond to the argument?

[Lurking Dem]

31. So what argument is this?

Maybe you can explain it to me.

Why do some Americans put another countries welfare above our own country?

Whats is that saying about not being able to serve two masters?

[oberliner]

34. Why do some Americans put another countries welfare above our own country?

Who are the "some Americans" who put another countries welfare above our own country?

And what countries welfare would that be?

[onenote]

50. he must be talking about mexico, right?

I guess the OP is one of those folks who thinks its awful that immigrants come here from Mexico and other Latin AMerican countries and then maintain ties with their country of origin by sending money back to them, going to visit, speaking Spanish, etc.

:sarcasm:

[Marie26]

53. Well, I care

FWIW. This is no different than the veiled allegations of "disloyalty" thrown at immigrants. Or how Republicans implied that JFK would be more loyal to the Pope than the US. Same difference.

[JerseygirlCT]

58. Yup. nt

[Codeine]

102. It's disgusting.

The secret shame of the Left.

[Freddie Stubbs]

20. Italy isn't surrounded by enemies who want to drive her into the sea

Crisis has tendency to engender allegiance.

[glitch]

21. I love Italy. Not Italian though. Love America too. But I don't serve any

masters. I think that might be a large part of the problem, too many people still serving masters.

[TahitiNut]

26. Maybe it'd be different if you were Irish ... donating to the IRA.

:evilgrin:

[treestar]

32. Or the US government donating to the IRA directly

Thus making the IRA strong enough to take the six counties back, have a real military, and defend Ireland from British terror attacks by occasionally bombing cities in Britain.

Roughly, anyway.

[Jersey Devil]

30. Viva Italia!

Perhaps if Italians were systematically murdered in mass genocides periodically throughout history you would have additional loyalty to Italy and the need to know that no matter what happens in America or wherever else you may live there will always be a place that will accept you and protect you.

Clearly your post is a reference to American Jews and Israel. While I am not Jewish (and am in fact also of Italian descent, at least partially), I think you should be ashamed to denigrate American Jews as lesser citizens of America.

[LostinVA]

33. self delete

[Henny Penny]

40. I don't think its allegiance..

I think its more a sense of "Israel needs our help in order to survive... and after what happened in WWII, when so many stood idly by, how can we of all people refuse?"

I don't blame people anywhere (Jewish or not) for feeling this about Israel, I just wish the Govt of Israel was more worthy of their support. For me, brute force never works in the long run and I find it impossible to stomach its consequences in the short term.

[Ms. Clio]

42. so ironic, considering the hatred spewed at those of Mexican descent

for daring to speak Spanish or wave a Mexican flag.

[NNN0LHI]

60. That wasn't American Jews doing that though

The American Jews I personally know in no way supported the hatred spewed at those of Mexican descent.

On the contrary. They were generally big supporters of immigrant rights in America.

Historically American Jews have fought for civil rights quite well. Some of them have died fighting for other peoples civil rights. I admire them.

Don

[Ms. Clio]

I was actually thinking about what I have been reading here

and not the community in general.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

57. :"Patriotism is the most foolish of passions and the passion of fools."

Schopenhauer

My grandmother, with my mother and and 5 other kids in tow, fled the poverty of Ireland. She hated the Brit overlords and would have happily danced around the fire if their mansions were burned down.

On the other hand, she didn't have much good to say about the mother country. "A beautiful place to starve." And, "The damned priests run the place." Are 2 of her not so "patriotic" quotes that I remember.

[onenote]

59. because you choose not to

But more to the point, many people of Italian descent feel a connection to Italy, just as many people of Irish descent feel a connection to Ireland, etc etc. Most American Jews, I believe, feel a connection to Israel and its people. That is not the same as "feeling allegiance" to the Israeli government or even supporting that government. I know plenty of American Jews who feel a strong sense of connection to Israel and want Israel to survive and be safe, but who don't approve of everything that Israel's government does. I should add that I know a number of American Jews who have been critical of a number of Israel's actions in the past, but who are supportive of the fight against Hezbollah.

[sweetheart]

61. I am made up of mostly water...

Yet i don't wash away in a storm.

I condemn being lost in past identities and frozen mindstates of fundamentalism.

I serve only one master, and that divine immaculate knows no country, no
allegience except to goodwill itself, to some ineffable spirit.

These killing men and war corporate bosses have lost the plot, losing touch with water.

[Skidmore]

64. Whoaa.....

Zap! That's a post worthy of Gozar the Gozarian....

Seriously, well said.

[cali]

63. Shameful and embarassing

as Skinner said about another thread that questioned the loyalty of American Jews, and yes, that's precisely what you're doing.

[oberliner]

65. thanks cali

for posting this.

[Poll_Blind]

70. Maybe, just maybe, let Skinner speak for himself. Got it?

PB

[Ms. Clio]

73. no, it's much more fun trying to get threads locked, I think

[Poll_Blind]

77. Indeed! n/t

PB

[cali]

87. I can quote whoever

I please, including Skinner, and amusingly enough, the person whose thread was locked by skinner with those comments, just posted in #76, stating that she asked the same thing as the OP, and her thread was locked for being antisemitic. A case of perfect timing.

[QuettaKid]

88. What about Joe Lieberman's comment in the New Yorker

last week? Who/What do you think he was talking about?

""A couple of weeks ago, in a reprise of his 2000 maneuver, he suddenly announced that if he loses the primary he will seek a place on the November ballot as the candidate of a new “Connecticut for Lieberman” party. “I’m a loyal Democrat,” he told reporters, “but I have loyalties that are greater than those to my party.” No kidding.""

http://www.newyorker.com/talk/content/articles/060724ta_talk_hertzberg

[oberliner]

103. Loyalty

Could he have been referring to loyalty to his principles?

People may not agree with Lieberman, but do you honestly think that he has greater loyalty to Israel than to the United States?

What about the millions of other Jewish-American supporters of Israel?

[QuettaKid]

106. I do not know WHO/WHAT he was

talking about...that's why I asked the question I did. As to could he have greater loyalty to Israel than the US, sure, why not? He is only human afterall. It's not like it is unheard of in history for people to say one thing and then do another.

[oberliner]

114. fair enough

But serious question, what do you think Lieberman meant by that statement?

[Jara sang]

76. I asked this same thing and the the thread got locked.

People called me anti-semitic.

[Ms. Clio]

84. don't worry, those same people are working very very hard right now

[Cleita]

78. Because you aren't Italian. You are American.

However, that aside, I used to work for a couple of Italian wholesale distributors in Los Angeles. They were from Italy and had businesses in many countries that they distributed Italian manufactured goods through. It became very apparent the disdain the natives hold of their country's politics.

It's not that they don't follow the politics unlike many of our Americans and they are up to date on current events but generally throw up their hands in disgust about what is happening and about their leaders. Those Italians also know our American politics as well or better than most Americans.

[theboss]

86. Ah.. the old dual loyalty accusation

Thank you for bringing up that old chestnut of anti-semitism.

Maybe you could write a post attacking Jewish bankers next.

[Poll_Blind]

93. Funny, he only speaks about his Italian heritage. Ban him for that?

Strange days.

PB

[theboss]

96. Who said anything about banning him? Just pointing out the tactic he used.

"Dual loyalty" is the accusation that is always thrown at Jews and never at any other group.

And I'm of Italian heritage too. Italians are neither a race nor a religion so perhaps that explains why my ties to other Italians are a tad weaker than the ties that bind Jews around the world.

[cali]

97. LOL

What crap. The poster you're responding to you didn't suggest that the OP be banned- that comes from your fevered imagination, and you couldn't be anymore transparently disengenuous about the OP's point, if you tried.

[smoogatz]

91. Ah, yes--the infamous holocaust against the Italians.

In which millions were wiped out, all across Europe, and it seemed that the entire world was indifferent to their plight. Yep, it's an excellent analogy, all righty.

[NNN0LHI]

101. Yes, Attila The Hun was a real sweety to my Italian ancestors

But I am not going to let that incident rule my life into perpetuity.

Don

[smoogatz]

104. Oh, for God's sake.

I'm talking about events that happened within the lifetimes of many of us posting here. Your initial analogy is absurd on its face, and now you're just grasping at straws.

[dsc]

95. I usually love your posts

not this one. It is about as vile as it gets. You should know better than to indulge in one of the oldest anti semitic canards. I am very disappointed.

[Behind the Aegis]

99. Maybe it is not the same thing.

[ProfessorGAC]

112. I Believe He's Asking Why It's Different

And i think you know that. But, piling on is so much easier.
The Professor

[Behind the Aegis]

113. How is my post "piling on?"

On edit: The OP is espousing the old "Jews are more loyal to Israel" crap!

[ProfessorGAC]

117. He's Asking A Question

He's asking why, if he as an italian-american, showed greater allegiance to italy than the U.S. the tolerance would be poor. I think it's a fair question.

Besides, which old "crap"? Isn't Israel only 59 years old? Were they saying that about Jewish folks before 1947? If they were, then it was apropos of nothing. No?

So, he asks a simple question, and those who are taking sides in the Middle East crisis, have decided the reason he asks is because he's an antisemite. Well, i know him and i know he's not. He doesn't have a bigoted bone in his body. Yet, you jumped on the antisemite bandwagon. That, my friend, is piling on.
The Professor

[DemocratSinceBirth]

119. I Don't Undertand

"Besides, which old "crap"? Isn't Israel only 59 years old? Were they saying that about Jewish folks before 1947? If they were, then it was apropos of nothing. No?"

I don't understand. Charges of Jewish dual loyalties precede the state of Israel

[Behind the Aegis]

120. And you are missing the forest for the trees.

The implication is VERY clear.

Since Israel came into being, it has been suggested that Jews are more loyal to Israel than their native home.

I haven't seen ONE poster call him anti-Semitic!

[DemocratSinceBirth]

122. The Charges Of Dual Loyalty Precede The State Of Israel

That's hardly an earth shattering revelation.

[Behind the Aegis]

123. Apparently for some, this is all news to them.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

126. The Protocols Of The Elders Of Zion

L'Affaire Dreyfus.

Hitler's charges of dual loyalties. But even some Germans took umbrage when Hitler sent Jewish veterans who had performed valorously during WW1 to concentration camps .


I guess that proves a Jew can never be loyal enough.

[Behind the Aegis]

128. I am fully aware of the charges.

I am just suprised that this seems to be "news" to some here.

[ProfessorGAC]

125. Then You Didn't Read All The Posts

Go back and try again. Telling someone they should be ashamed is a personal reference that extends beyond commenting on the question.

And he is making no such implication. You are making an inference. There is a distincition and a difference.
The Professor

[Behind the Aegis]

130. NOT ONE!

I didn't see ONE poster call the POSTER anti-Semitic! NOT ONE! I saw "he is bringing our the dual loyalty" charge, and comments similar, but NOT ONE poster has called the OP(oster) an anti-Semite! If I missed it, then you should alert because calling a POSTER anti-Semitic is against the rules and since there are no deleted posts...

[smoogatz]

131. It's a ridiculous question.

First, it implies/presupposes that American Jews who support Israel are "more loyal" to Israel than the U.S. My wife's father is Jewish, and while many members of his family support Israel (a few are even Likudniks), not one would put Israel's welfare ) "above our own country('s)." Second, it attempts to draw a false analogy between loyalty to a place like Italy, in which the majority population of Italians has been under no threat of anything approaching genocide since 452 a.d., and Israel, which for many Jews represents the only true safe haven on the planet--since anti-semitism can crop up anywhere; even right here in the USA.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

115. I Am Disappointed But Not Surprised At This Thread

eom

[porphyrian]

116. What are you talking about?

No one here puts other countries' welfare above our own.

[philly_bob]

118. Maybe not Italians, but Irish-Americans suffered from dual loyalties

I'm Irish, and long after the IRA had turned into a destructive, malevolent force in Ireland, Irish-Americans were still sending money to the IRA, remembering the heroic IRA rebels of 1916.

For a long time, American politicians had to espouse the IRA line to get the Irish vote.

[LanternWaste]

121. I don't think there's a limit to loyaties...

"Why do some Americans put another countries welfare above our own country?"

I don't think there's a limit to the loyaties a person may entertain. Now some may preclude another due to ideaologies, but certainly not in the cases that have been arising on DU over the past ten days.

I don't think that loyalty (much like love, happiness, welfare, charity, friendship, et.al.) has a 20 gallon limit.

I have loyalty to my family-- I also have loyalty to my friends. There's no container of loyalty that gets low when we've doled out a particular amount to one or the other. If I'm feeling particulaly loyal to my family one day, it does not follow that the loyalty to my friends recedes or is lessened in any way.

[ContraBass Black]

124. Did you root for them in the World Cup?

[NNN0LHI]

127. Brazil n/t

[CountAllVotes]

129. this exact argument was used during WWII in reverse

This is how the Japanese in America ended up in internment camps. The Japanese living in America during WWII were said to be devotees of Hirohito, not real Americans, not devoted to America. For this alleged affiliation the Japanese were rounded up and held in internment camps. And finally, today, they have received some restitution, but not much.

By clumping people into convenient "groups" that are easy to recognize, perhaps we discover the art of assimilation and genocide.

Feeling no allegiance to one's country or countries of origin is pretty meaningless in today's greed driven society.

So who really cares? I do not.

Most Americans of a combination of several ethnicities. If it is several, why would I say I am any which one?

In the end I am an American which is probably the best name for what I am. A mixture of many races and religions.

Pick and choose is what I say. Take what you find and keep the best of it and discard the rest. That is all one can do. This is what you have done by your condemnation of Italy's Berscolini.

You should ask this question of a native american. The Indian people in America have lived it and are still living it.

:dem:

[Skinner]

132. Locking.

I think it is fairly obvious that Italy's situation vis-a-vis its neighbors (and the rest of the world) is a little bit different from Israel's situation, and perhaps the comparision you are making is not nearly as valid as you like to think.