For supporters of Israel...

[k_jerome]

when you pull the lever for a Democratic candidate, you can be almost 100% sure that candidate supports Israel as well. The vitriol toward Israel is a very small minority. I hope.

[havocmom]

1. One can be pro-Israel and very much opposed to the current leadership

just as one can be pro-American and hate the junta here.

[k_jerome]

2. I did not mention Israels leadership...

it is democratically elected and a large majority of Israeli citizens support it.

[havocmom]

4. Allegedly, ours is too

But we have seen that leaders sometimes are not what they show to their citizens.

And some leaders are removed without benefit of elections.

[k_jerome]

7. I guess all I can say is...

not every election you don't agree with is rigged or stolen. Not every leader is a liar. There is a reason Democrats have always supported Israel. That has not changed and never will. You do have the right to question and I can appreciate your unique lack of vitriol.

[havocmom]

41. One who sought peace was killed. Ariel Sharon, on campaign, provoked

violence (and Likud HAD to know it would) when he went to the Temple Mount. It was a signal. The Palestinians and Arabs got it. Likud was gonna roll.

One didn't need a crystal ball to predict response and escalation.

Lo and behold, Israeli hawks won elections again.

Not stolen, but perhaps rather hatefully manipulated elections.

Now, shoe on other foot:

If Israel can elect what it wants, why is it a problem when fledgling democracies in Arab states do the same? If Israel doesn't like the results, is it fine to go in and practice collective punishment on an entire people for the acts of a few.

Oh, and I saw the pictures of the 'rocket launchers in civilian populations' Israel used to justify pounding innocents. Even I knew those were anti-aircraft cannon. Hardly an offensive weapon.

Both sides are making a lot of mistakes. Both sides are ensuring more generations of blood feuds.

Corporations are making a lot of money off arming both sides.

All sides would do well to stop fighting and look at the real enemy. All sides are being encouraged to take old feuds to new heights.

Someone is laughing all the way to the bank.

[Selatius]

6. Israel's is what I support, but on the same token...

I would say when the government supports colonization programs in the West Bank, you are foolish not to think there would not be consequences such as the rise of whacked out organizations like Hamas. I am not saying that no colonization = no attack by Hezbollah, but what I am saying is a lot of the problems facing Israel in the West Bank/Gaza Strip today would not be there if Israel had never colonized them in the first place.

[k_jerome]

8. you should read some of the statements regarding this by...

the current leader and investigate the reasons for the formation of the party currently in leadership.

[Selatius]

9. Yes, but the unilateral withdrawal plan is flawed

You are still basically enshrining some level of colonialism in the West Bank, especially since Israel illegally annexed the entire corridor from the Green Line to Jerusalem, which is one of the most contentious issues of the whole colonization debate.

[k_jerome]

14. that is a legitimate criticism. I hope to see some progress on...

this issue when the current mess is resolved. I daresay, the current leadership is a bit more flexible than Likud.

[havocmom]

33. Agree. One can support a nation and still oppose policies

of some administrations.

[NNN0LHI]

3. Let American Jews pull the lever for Jew hating Republicans then

See where that gets them.

The Jews I know personally know better.

Don

[peacetalksforall]

5. We can stay out of trouble if we acknowledge the hard reality of

our situation - there is no country to country war - there is not race to race war - or religion to religion ...

The big war is between the little people and the barons. The barons want control of the populations and the resources. Many of the leaders of some of the major countries are in place because of the barons. It's even true in the Middle East.

We must condemn the leaders - the operatives for the barons. I don't condemn Israeli's except those who buy into the baron game. In this country, the best example, are the religious fanatics and their go-betweens, the reverends who preache-guide them into what their politics should be.

Israel should exist. Palestine should exist. All the way - meaning the people and the children can thrive.

These children and their guardians need honest representation. We're not getting it in this country except for some genuine saints.

If you don't believe me, get in line for your chip and your cubicle and Murdoch-Timewarner-GE propaganda that will exceed 1984 or the USSR.

[bigtree]

10. The vitriol is over Israel's actions. I suspect that support is not 100%

You've again blurred the distinction between criticism of Israel's actions and support of Israel as a country. You negate the critic's support of the people of Israel with your broad brush.

But, I guess that was your intention: to blur the impression of the critics and morph their opposition with the worst of Israel's detractors. Most of those opposing Israel's actions have taken pains to draw that distinction. But, anything less than 100% support is not enough for some to refrain from labeling and smearing with their own vitriol.

[k_jerome]

11. The referenced representatives will appreciate your...

vote as well, as will the eventual nominee for President. No vitriol from me.

[bigtree]

13. I doubt very much that a Democrat in the WH would follow Bush's course

of a backseat rider on Israel's killing spree.

[k_jerome]

15. We all have our viewpoints. I am happy to see almost universal...

support among Democratic leadership regarding Israel.

[bigtree]

20. bread and butter

strange, though, to have so much trust in politicians' steadfastness. Things change, usually right after the election. Nothing much for them to do now, but the ripple effects of these assaults will almost certainly lead to more resistance and reprisals from those already inclined to oppose America and our interests, and from newly affected individuals whose lives have been senselessly devastated by Israel's reprisals. When it occurs, we tend to take each action and isolate it, as if our denial of the root causes will shout down and mollify the affected.

If security is to be the deciding factor for Israelis and Americans, there may not be much of an argument for these administrations which have made their respective countries LESS secure as a result of their strident militarism. To merely state support for Israel doesn't address all of that, I'm afraid, and I suspect that appeal won't settle the increasing unease that Americans have with the continued militarism supported, encouraged, and participated in by the Bush regime.

Already Bush has equated the current prosecution of Israel's reprisals to his wider 'war on terrorism.' Americans have already indicated their displeasure with his overreach in that pursuit. It stands to reason that Americans won't long tolerate any more misguided militarism; supported, encouraged, or participated in.

[k_jerome]

21. Democrats have always had unwavering support for Israel..

I do not see that changing any time soon.

[bigtree]

24. that's not to say that Democrats won't do more to hold Israel in check

to do more than provide lip service when they say they are encouraging restraint. I don't think 'support for Israel has always comprised support for every action they take. So, enjoy the election. I will, especially if it means a Democratic majority. But, don't try to pretend that their ascendance is a blank check for Israel's muckraking.

[k_jerome]

25. I am certainly happy with the current level of support in the...

Democratic leadership. I do not forsee any changes. We both agree a Democratic majority is the goal.

[Warren DeMontague]

28. I don't think the OP is the only one who has "blurred" that distinction.

First thing I saw when I came on here today is another carefully worded thread talking about how Israel -never explicitly named, of course- "Stole" all the land it has ever occupied, it has spent its entire history abusing its neighbors, really doesn't have any legitimate right to exist-- and, of course, what would you do? if you were the friendly peace-loving people who suddenly found yourself forced to live next to "those folks"??

I have been relentless in my criticism of what I perceive- what most of us perceive- to be Israeli overreaction and excess in what they've been doing this past week or so. But I support Israel's right to exist. I don't bend over backwards to try to "understand" the motivations of suicide bombers and terrorists committed to its destruction. For some reason I've never been "labled" or "smeared" for criticizing Israel's behavior of late. Perhaps the problem isn't that anyone demands 100% support, but that the people who are strenuously arguing points identical to, as you put it, "the worst of Israel's detractors" get a free pass by many here.

[bigtree]

43. I'm not at all indifferent to Israel's 'right' to 'exist' (in peace)

I just think their actions are antithethical to that end. I'm also concerned that Israeli authorities are prosecuting their reprisals as if their countryfolk's lives were more important than those of the Lebanese. Or that Lebanese lives were less important than the supposed targets of Israel's assaults. I frankly don't understand why their defenses have been so directed at Lebanon's infrastructure and targeted to populated areas.

I'm truly not seeing why Lebanese civilians aren't being afforded the same right to defense that Israel claims, outside of the overwhelming force of Israel's military and the ultimate impact that makes. Where are the calls for Lebanon's citizen's 'right to exist.' Even if one accepts Israel's assertion that Hizbollah is to blame for their deaths (I don't), the Lebanese are still victims of a horrible injustice. It's just doesn't follow that the Lebanese should be prosecuted along with Hizbollah. That has been the effect of the strikes. There seems to be NO decisive, productive vehicle for any protest or defense against the missile strikes outside of our continued voices in opposition. At least Israel has a splinter group to rail against. Lebanon has to overcome Hizbollah's actions everytime they raise their voices in opposition to the slaughter of their own civilians by Israeli forces. They have declared that they are against what Hizbollah has done, but they have, nonetheless, borne the brunt of Israel's deadly reprisals. Their losses would seem to me to be at least on par with Israel's if we assume all innocent life has value. Where's the acknowledgement of that in the strident defense of Israel's assaults?

[Warren DeMontague]

45. Well, if you're looking for a "strident defense" of what Israel has done

in the past week, you're going to have to find someone else to offer it.

I agree with much of what you've written above, although I think you may have made a Freudian slip when you talk about "missile stikes". Hezbollah have been the ones firing missiles. Israel has been dropping bombs. A distinction lost on the people killed by both, I'm sure, but a distinction nonetheless. And while it's worth asking why Hezbollah feels the need to fire those missiles from densely populated civilian areas, at this point I think the only reasonable course of action right now is a ceasefire, period- which is what I've been saying for quite some time.

My larger point, as I've made elsewhere on this board- if we are going to (and we should) insist on the very legitimate distinction between "anti-semitism" and criticism of the policies of the Government of Israel, I think we also ought to clearly distinguish between people who are opposed to (as I am) certain activities or policies of the Government of Israel and people who are opposed to the existence of Israel, period.

[Snivi Yllom]

12. the anti-Israel voters will vote Green

....donning flame proof suit

[k_jerome]

16. I do not think that is the case...nt.

[HamdenRice]

17. This is a dangerously incorrect, misguided and deluded observation

I think one of the biggest challenges supporters of Israel will have to face, very soon, is the imbalance between the support that Israel receives from elected officials and the support Israel receives from the non-Jewish population in general.

While it is true that when supporters of Israel vote, they can be assured that their candidate supports Israel, they can also be assured that their candidate is out of synch with his constituency on this issue. I would make an analogy to free trade and globalization. Almost every Democratic politician at the federal level supports globalization and most rank and file Democrats do not support globalization as currently constituted.

The support politicians give issues like Israel's military policies and globalization have more to do with what happens in Washington -- lobbying, campaign contributions, wanting to appear as part of the mainstream consensus, media coverage and retention of administration access -- than the representation of constituents' views.

This means that there is a dangerous imbalance. Something has to give. Ultimately, politicians will face a day of reckoning.

My informal anecdotal observations here in New York should give pause to supporters of Israel (including people, like myself who are not Jewish and who give conditional support to Israel): that is, I do not know a single non-Jewish person who supports Israel.

The OP is deluding himself if he believes that the positions taken by politicians on Israel represent all but a small minority of Americans. Indeed, as DU posting over the last few days suggests, a severe backlash is brewing against Israel among people who have no ethnic/emotional/religious connection to that country. To assume otherwise is to bury your head in the sand and await a furious reckoning.

[Phx_Dem]

18. Beg to differ

My informal anecdotal observations here in Phoenix suggest to me that liberals/progressives are very supportive of Israel. DU is not the least bit representative of liberals, IMO.

[k_jerome]

22. Polls and personal observation disagree with you...

however, we all have our own opinions. Overwhelming Democratic party support of Israel is not in doubt, however.

[HamdenRice]

26. Fewer than half of all Americans support Israel

Recent polls show that about 45% of Americans support Israel. Those results have varied between 47% and 37% over the last few years -- never more than 50%. These poll numbers are usually interpreted as showing a plurality of Americans support Israel, because the polling question is phrased in terms of preference for Israel, the Palestinians or neither, and obviously the vast majority of Americans hate and fear Arabs and Muslims in general and Palestinians in particular, and asked to choose between Israel and the Palestinians Americans choose Israel or neither. It is remarkable, however, that even when juxtaposed with Palestinians, Israel never has simple majority support among the American people.

Moreover, poll analysis shows that support for Israel is strongest among conservative, evangical Christians who overwhelmingly support the Republican party, and conversely it is easy to infer that support for Israel among progressives and Democrats would skew far below the current 45% overall support.

If you believe that only a tiny minority of Democrats and progressives do not support Israel, you have your head in the sand, and you are not doing Israel any favors in the long term by ignoring the trends.

[k_jerome]

29. please provide the source for your polls. i have seen...

polls that differ. we can play dueling polls.

[HamdenRice]

36. Pew

http://pewresearch.org/reports/?ReportID=37

Even if we play dueling polls, I doubt that any poll will confirm that only a "tiny minority" of Democrats fail to support Israel as your OP suggests.

What is a tiny minority? 5%? Seems like it more like 50%

[Ron Green]

27. From what I've seen lately, that's true of support of the policies of the

Bush administration as well. The Democrats in Congress are bought and paid for; not to the extent the Republicans are, but nevertheless.

Overwhelming Democratic party support of Israel is not in doubt, however.

I suggest that to whatever extent the Democratic party is beholden to any special interests, it is beholden to Israel. Maybe this will change. Miracles do happen.

[k_jerome]

31. bought and paid for by whom may I ask? nt.

[Ron Green]

32. Halliburton, HCA, Nike, McDonald's, Disney, Bechtel, Coca-Cola, Pfizer,

Chevron Texaco, ADM, Wal*Mart, Philip Morris . . . and AIPAC, of course.

[k_jerome]

35. ahh. I see. So what level of control do jews have over our...

Democratic congresspeople? Total or just partial.

[Ron Green]

37. According to your Original Post, it's darn near total.

when you pull the lever for a Democratic candidate, you can be almost 100% sure that candidate supports Israel as well.

[k_jerome]

39. ahh, so Democratic support of Israel is solely based on...

money payed by Jews to congresspeople? Thank you.

[Ron Green]

42. I hope you know it's not that simple.

Remember all the corporate sponsors in the post above? They, along with AIPAC and other Americans with various family and cultural ties to the "tribe" of Israel as well as the modern state of Israel, are keenly interested in a continuing Jewish presence in the Middle East for their own reasons: some religious, some economic, some imperial.

[Name removed]

19. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[k_jerome]

23. please enlighten. nt.

[Warren DeMontague]

30. Why? nt

[Phx_Dem]

38. So why don't you enlighten us?

[k_jerome]

40. cowardice? nt

[porphyrian]

34. I don't really support Israel, I support Israel-supporters.

Not that this distinction matters to the attack dogs. I completely disagree with all of the violence from both sides, and I'm sick of the childish blaming of each other for each party's own actions, which is preposterous. I have a very hard time understanding how a Jew can be right-wing unless through some serious psychological disorder, but I'm aware of how they managed to take control of the country, which is not too unlike what happened here in America (though ours was more of a Terror-Disney ride beyond 9/11).

What concerns me most about what is happening here on DU is the ferocity and persistance in attacking Israel (which I can understand from a policy-oriented/consequential point of view) and its supporters, even after the complexities of the relationships between them have been explained, and to the exclusion of the other rampant violent atrocities occurring in other parts of the world. I guess some people just want to bash Jews, and I'm not cool with that.

[grassfed]

44. Cheney - all the support Israel needs

Cheney's War Room Cabinet:

David Wurmser is the Middle East Adviser to Dick Cheney. Wurmser, a neo-conservative, previously served as special assistant to John R. Bolton at the State Department and was a former research fellow on the Middle East at the American Enterprise Institute. He is one of the main authors of the 1996 PNAC Clean Break report, a paper prepared for Israeli Prime Minister Binyamin Netanyahu. The Washington Post reported that FBI counterintelligence investigators had questioned Wurmser, along with Harold Rhode, Paul Wolfowitz and Douglas Feith about the passing of classified information to Ahmad Chalabi and/or the American Israel Public Affairs Committee.

David Wurmser's wife, Meyrav Wurmser, founded The Middle East Media Research Institute, or MEMRI, a Middle East press monitoring organization that provides "translations" of Arabic and Farsi media that reflect badly on the character of Arabs or in some way furthers the political agenda of Israel. Memri's intent is to find the worst possible quotes from the Muslim world and disseminate them as widely as possible. They have instant access to the top levels of all media hierarchies. Television and radio personalities often read directly from their emails and faxes that also appear verbatim in print.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/elsewhere/journalist/story/0,...
http://www.pnac.info /