Can you forgive those who've supported bush all these years?

[Philosoraptor]

My brother is a recent convert, he voted for bush twice and now regrets it, especially since his daughter, my niece is now going to Iraq.

Normally I am the type to gently say I told you so, but with my bro, and his daughter, I'm taking it sort of easy and not saying anything too explosive, in fact, I feel sympathy for him now. But I confess to harboring disdain for anyone who fell for bush's bullshit.

If they convert and come around and tell me they regret voting for him, I suppose I should play nice, but the temptation to say, "you dumbass, didn't I tell you"? is hard to resist.

[izzie]

1. Sure they let me on this site and I voted for Nixon before

I got my act together and started to think about things and not just vote the party I had grown up in.

[peaches2003]

2. NEVER for 2004 vote

2000 is one thing- though a lot of us saw through him from the beginning. 2004 is another whole story! I will NEVER forgive their vote, family member or not. They KNEW! Bush 2004 voters deserve a great deal of the responsibility for where this country is now.

[peace frog]

3. Hell, my husband voted for Reagan twice

and I still love him and remain married to him. I say, rejoice at your loved one's conversion but continue shining the brilliant light of truth for which the rest of the unenlightened may also see.

[RC]

4. Yeah, but will he stay 'around'?

He and those like him a getting it now, but what happens when/if the reality based folks manage to get control and run things for a while?
Will the propaganda of the reality challenged talking points start registering again with them?

[Richard Steele]

5. FORGIVE, on a case-by-case basis. FORGET, never under any circumstance.

Supporting B*sh for so long is not just a matter
of having a different political opinion, it is
proof of serious moral or mental deficiencies.
And those are NOT things that change much after
reaching adulthood.

If these deficient folk want to start voting (D),
that's great. But giving them more credit than they are
due will NEVER be a good idea. I will NEVER give their
thoughts and opinions the same consideration I would
give to someone else.

[acmavm]

6. No. Not ever. Not when I look around at all the destruction and death

and lies. Not when I think about the wars he's gotten us into and the ones he wants to get us into. Not when more and more people are slipping into poverty and there are no longer any safety nets to catch them on their way down. Not when I think about all the old people who can't afford their meds and can't buy them cheaper legally. Not when I know that he's got people sifting into every aspect of our personal lives and he has not moral or legal right to do that. Not when he's allowed the American Taliban to become so powerful, and they're so stupid and corrupt. Not when I know that MY CHILDREN AND GRANDCHILDREN and for generations beyond that will pay for the criminality of this man and his cabal or larcenous cronies and the truly wealthy will get a pass. Not when ...

Need I go on?

[area51]

47. Agree w/acmavm. (n/t)

[NC_Nurse]

7. My dad is a hopeless Repug...

but a nice guy at heart. I just refuse to talk politics with him. Even if he came around someday, I would never hold it over him. He comes by it honestly, grew up in cracker Florida (Jacksonville) with RW parents.
Now, someone younger than 50 who thinks like that needs their head examined. I'd have a hard time not laughing in their face.

[blue sky at night]

8. Yes.......

to do otherwise reflects on ones self, not the Bush Supporter. To judge them, just means we are people who judge......and nothing more: it won't change a thing. Change yourself, Change the World. Peace.

[magellan]

9. NEVER. (nt)

[liberal N proud]

10. I will allow them the opportunity to change their minds on the situation

But will never forget and never trust them.
I will make sure my grandkids know what an evil man bu$h is and what his evil empire cost them.

[PhilYerHead]

11. First, Never. But then Jesus did say turn the cheek.

The "bushbots" make me/us crazy.

We are ready to leave the country. It is push and shove for us.

WE want to make a difference and yet feel there is nothing we can do.
Oh well, we can only hope.

I guess.

[rock]

12. Yes, but only if they don't do this kind of crap again

They must promise to be more careful of their vote in the future.

[Ino]

13. Why?

I admire your restraint. I don't think I could be so gentle!

I'm curious though just how deep his regret goes. Does he regret his support for reasons other than his daughter's going to Iraq? Does his regret extend to the whole Repug party, or just focuses on Junior? Will he vote Democratic from now on, or will he say, "Only THIS crew is bad"? Is he now questioning everything BushCo has done?

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

14. Forgive, maybe; depends on the circumstances.

But forget? No way. It's gonna be a never-ending "See? What did I say? I told you this would happen. But did you listen? Nooooo! A nice fuckin' kettle of fish you've gotten us into. Are you finally fuckin' sorry now, you dumbass?" Yup, gonna rub it in, big time.

[acmejack]

15. Forgiveness is divine.

We are supposed to do these things. It is awfully hard, though. It would require some serious repentance on their part, for I am not as good as Christ.

[donheld]

16. It will be very difficult!

As someone else said after all the pain and misery he's caused. The destruction of the "new deal," the gifts he's bestowed on the wealty and big business, the lies and bait and switch policies, the violations he's caused and let others cause on the environment. I suppose if someone came and really realized the attrocities they allowed him to cause I might could forgive, but time will tell. I don't know that I will restrain myself from the "you dumbass, didn't I tell you"? comments.

[mmonk]

17. It's really hard for me.

I expect my family to suffer from all the judicial appointments (my oldest son has a learning disability). I have difficulty with those that have supported the administration and it's also why I have difficulty with DLC democrats who conceeded so much to these people. Real lives have been affected in a bad way, even those who aren't involved in a more direct way with foreign policy or were in the path of Katrina.

[Debau2005]

18. Maybe, on a case by case basis

My aunt...NOPE! She is a selfish, hateful woman anyway, so this is just one more nail in her coffin as far as I am concerned. She has made some statements about me and to me at famiy functions, mainly about me being a liberal, vegetarian that would make Satan proud!

Everyone else, depends on how they would vote now.

[mwb970]

19. Yes, if they were fooled by the lies from Fox, Rush, etc.

Think for a minute about all of the falsehoods that these poor, deluded Fox-only viewers believe:

- Saddam attacked us on 9/11; Bush's War is payback.
- We found WMD in Iraq.
- 9/11 was Clinton's fault.
- (Robotic voice) We have to fight them over there so we don't have to fight them here.
- Afghanistan is going "swimmingly" (thanks, Ann).
- The economy is in great shape.
- Deficits don't matter (thanks, Dick).
- Liberals hate God and Jesus; hence the "War On Christians".
- Global warming is a liberal plot (think Sen. Inhofe here).
- Godless liberals are forcing kids to learn false doctrine (evolution).
- Stem-cell research kills babies.

My God! If I believed all those things, every one of which is false, with all my heart I'd be a Bushbot too! The process of debushification begins (and ends) with a realization of the actual truth about the matters outlined above. Once a person realizes they have been lied to, it's hard to go back and just keep swallowing it.

Education is the key.

[marions ghost]

40. right

if you are going to hold the Sheeple responsible, then you have to factor in the influence of the lying media sheepherders. Not to excuse them for being so gullible (they need to take some responsibility now, to 'atone for their sins)' but you also need to hold the criminal masterminds responsible.

[durrrty libby]

20. I really feel bad for your brother. He must be so filled with worry.

However I view W supporters as homophobic,

bible thumpin, bigots, that don't give a crap about humanity or the planet.


Can I forgive someone who sent an innocent to the death row despite them having

contrary evidence?


:spank: :hurts: :thumbsdown: :banghead:

[Atman]

21. "You dumbass, didn't I tell you!" I scream that at my teevee every night!

Every time I see one of the talking heads tell America about the housing bubble burst, or the latest of Bush lies, or the result of one of his disastrous anti-family policies, I scream "you dumbass, didn't I tell you?" And that is what is so amazing to me. Virtually EVERYTHING that has gone wrong with this administration -- which is virtually everything it has done -- is something that fellow DUers repeatedly warned about prior to Bush FIRST installation! Everything. This administration is one big "I TOLD YOU SO!" It pisses me off to no end, but I forgive people the first "mistake." After all, it was pretty much outright theft anyway. But I have no patience for anyone who voted for the asshole TWICE. Especially family members...it makes me fear for the gene pool.

[AzDar]

22. I don't believe Bush-voters need MY forgiveness. They are, however,

to be forever scorned.
Idiots, plain and simple.

[Toots]

23. I can forgive them but will never trust them

I understand that a major brainwashing of Amerca has occured and a majority has fallen prey to it but I can never trust them again. If they can be brainwashed like this once it can happen again..

[Skelington]

24. Did you get the responses you hoped for from your thread?

[Philosoraptor]

25. I hoped for no particular response

But I'm not surprised by the responses. I like the one about how they don't necessarily deserve my forgiveness.

Its just an issue in my own family that is ongoing.

[orleans]

55. did you see this before? i thinkj it's wonderful so i'm reposting it

it was posted by ReadTomPaine on du
entitled: "Sleeping on the Democratic Couch – Advice for Republican Refugees

"Until we fix your party and send you back across the aisle, here are some suggested house rules for Republican refugees staying with the Democratic Party.

1) It’s our house, not yours.

Don’t put your feet on the coffee table, don’t raid the 'fridge and don’t pretend you’ve owned the place all along. As comfortable as you may feel here, this isn’t politics as usual. It’s not your home. If you find you fit in, you are welcome to stay and become a member of our family. Otherwise, don’t pretend we’re the same as you. Be happy we aren’t charging rent; you are expensive guests.

2) Don’t invite your crazy friends over.

We have a big tent, but a short fuse. While we are putting you up in our home, don’t push your old politics in our face. Hold your nose and support both mainstream and progressive Democrats. Yes, that means ditching McCain for now. Assuming he’s still in politics when this is over, you can vote for him or give him support then. Leave the Bush enablers at the door. You can spend time with them once we reform your party for you and send you home. It’s bad form now. Meantime, eat your veggies. They are better for you than you think.

3) Wipe your feet before you come in.

Tracking mud on our nice carpet is boorish. Leave the dirt outside. This means that no matter how much you are tempted to do otherwise, use that old GOP “support the leader” discipline and get in line with progressive politics, whether you agree with them or not. You might not like our agenda, but you wouldn’t be here if you preferred Bush’s GOP. I know old habits die hard and vices are a comfort in times of stress, but please also refrain from your favorite pastime, bashing Democratic ideals. We want you to go home as much as you want to return, but it’s hard to fix the bigger mess if we are constantly cleaning up after smaller ones at home. We do work, you know.

4) Leave the keys to the car alone.

As a party we are pro civil rights, pro women’s rights, pro minorities, pro gay, pro environment and pro choice. We believe in the separation of church and state. Don’t try to take the wheel and steer toward the right. Your driver's license was suspended anyway, remember?

5) Be nice to our friends.

We’ve been friends with labor unions, environmental groups and foreign countries like France a lot longer than we’ve been friends with you. Don’t give any of them a hard time. Don’t say they don’t belong here at our side. Don’t call them wackos or extremists. They belong here more than you do and they will be our friends long after most of you are gone. We argue with them enough as it is.

6) Don’t unpack your baggage.

The only reason you are sleeping on the Democratic couch is because you can’t face your alcoholic father. We empathize, but please don’t preach to us about religion, morals, ethics or lack of the same. Save it for the family counselor after we put your abusive parents in jail. Democrats have plenty of GOP problems to deal with already.

7) Don’t interfere in a family fight.

Moderates may fight with progressives. Grassroots liberals may fight with the party establishment. Young Democrats might argue with older ones. That’s none of your concern. These are our political brothers and sisters, not yours. If the Democratic Party is somewhat dysfunctional, at least it is still a real political party, not the empty shell of one. So if we start to bicker, leave us alone. We'll find a way to work it ourselves. Democrats are good with that. Learn from this.

Now with a little bit of luck, this will all be behind us in a few years and you’ll get your old house back. It will take a lot longer if you screw around, however. So don’t screw around.

Enjoy your stay!"

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=364&topic_id=1857274

[TheFriedPiper]

26. I confront complete strangers on supporting Bush

I will tell them in no uncertain terms that THEY are personally responsible for EVERY death in Iraq, including the children.

I will tell them that THEY, out of blind fear, supported a wave of evil and THEY owe US our country back.

I live in Atlanta, but when I am forced to go beyond the city borders out into Georgia, I encounter lots of Bushbot morons (not to mention people that can't fucking drive, the slo-mos)

I am not afraid of physical confrontations from rednecks. I'm not a small guy and I like challenging their misbelief that all non-Republicans are weak.

I call them out on their cowardice, their ignorance, and make sure that they know I hold them PERSONALLY RESPONSIBLE for all the deaths their vote has caused.

As for family, I just continue to berate them for falling for the con of conservatism (of course, the few that are still religious get an earful too about falling for scams)

[leftyladyfrommo]

27. Of course - that would be most of my friends and family

Except for my brother and his family - he absolutely hates Bush. Thinks he is a complete moron.

Smart guy, ,my brother.

[jdadd]

28. Only God can forgive them...

I'm not God...

[T Wolf]

29. Absolutely not!

All that will do is encourage them to betray you and your children again in the future. They cannot be trusted.

[Joe Fields]

30. No, I cannot forgive! They were a huge reason why we are in

the complete and totally fucked up mess we're in today.

[bridgit]

31. they do not need my forgiveness, they need my advise...

[Tyler Durden]

32. Hard to say-I have no PIG REPUKE friends or relatives.

I no longer acknowledge the existence of FORMER friends or relatives that support the Pig Bush and his gang of Evil Idiots.

He's got a long way to go before his death toll tops Nixon in Vietnam, but since Nixon inherited the war and The Pig Bush started this one, I guess that trumps Nixon.

Seeing as compared to Bush and Reagan, Nixon is almost a SOCIALIST, I don't figure voting for him is unforgiveable.

[ItNerd4life]

33. People are resistant to change, treat it carefully

and you can slowly convert him over from the dark side.

Ask him why he's changing his mind? What are his key reasons for voting for him? Ask more questions, don't ever tell him.

Example: If one key reason is fiscal conservativism. Ask him if the Republicans have been doing that? Slow and steady, it brings people around. If you bash him over the head, you won't get him to change.

We're smarter than they are, so don't fall into acting like the 2 year olds that they are and say 'I told you so'.

[newspeak]

51. it is not my place to forgive them

However, for those who have friends and family who voted for this administration twice and some say they are nice, they are giving people--how do they reconcile children murdered, people tortured, secrecy, lies, corporate corruption? I cannot reconcile the perception of "nice", "giving", people who endorse such policies.

[NuttyFluffers]

34. True Repentance Must Precede Forgiveness.

my requirement would be eternal voting for progressive causes now and forever until death takes him from this life. but that would be *my* condition for *my* forgiveness.

see, forgiveness means to forget as well. it means to push away awareness of the transgression as far as possible from you, as if it never happened, and start with a clean slate between. so that's why the statement "forgive and forget" is linked (the "forget" is redundant, but helpful for those who don't understand the greater depth of the meaning of forgiveness), and why "forgive, but not forget!" doesn't make any sense.

and forgiveness requires true repentance on the transgressors part. this can be expressed through acts of piety, feelings of guilt and supplication, etc. but repentance is key. because otherwise what is given is more appropriately termed mercy. (mercy = a reprieve of not receiving what you deserve; the opposite, grace = a boon receiving what you do not deserve).

since i'm not divine, and have no illusions or expectations of myself as such, i realize that my capacity for mercy, grace, and forgiveness is not limitless. for me, i could reach a point of forgiveness of them, but my condition would probably be as stated above, or something equally taxing, humbling, and/or productive.

[warrens]

35. No, not without a MAJOR mea culpa

If they pull that, well, he had me fooled crap, that he's not a true conservative like they thought he was, that won't cut it.

Admit you're a moron, easily fooled by hate politics, and swear that you will never vote for a Repuke again, then I will forgive.

[marions ghost]

46. Agreed-- IMO

an admission of guilt and complicity is necessary to achieve forgiveness.

I would add that I'd like to see action in "atoning"-- such as apologies to those they have hurt, and doing something to help rectify things. For example if they would work for an honest and responsible media in any serious way now, that would help. They SHOULD be angry about how the media has twisted information and how that has hurt them. They SHOULD demand better of their media sources, even if all they know how to do is call up on some open phone line. In that case, I would be prepared to send the roses of forgiveness. But human nature being what it is, I expect most to put up defenses and slink away from any notion of taking responsibility.

You can't just let people trash others, put criminals in power, support serious abuses--and give them the idea that it's all OK. All is forgiven? Nah--that's just saying "do it again." A line has been crossed.

Let Jesus forgive hatemongers and warmongers. Let them forgive themselves. It's really not up to the rest of us to do that. My touchstone about Forgiveness--ONLY do it if it makes you feel better. Don't do it if it doesnt make you feel better. Have compassion for these people for being such suckers, pity them for their genuine irrational level of fear--but don't give them an inch. Some of them will always take a mile. We're fighting for everything we care about here. If they come around to a "wised up" perspective. OK fine. But realize that it can take many years for people to accept that they have had their brains hijacked.

[KansDem]

36. No (eom)

[WA98296]

37. All the enablers need to take responsibility, but mostly elected enablers.

[zbdent]

38. Tell your brother that you're praying for his daughter

and be secure in the knowledge that this statement should really burn his britches, if he ever put two and two together and got four ...

[bdamomma]

39. No, * has caused much death and destruction

and regarding those who voted for him, shame on you all for voting for him 2000 and in 2004, and seeing the death and destruction of so many people and the destruction of our OWN country. Brainwashed and wrapped up in their religious beliefs, too much religion can make a person stupid.

[Beelzebud]

41. Forgive, yes. Trust them to THINK? Hell No.

These people have shown they are dumber than sacks of hammers.

So, while I'll forgive those numbskulls I know that voted for this shit twice, I'll never trust them to use their brains ever again.

[porphyrian]

42. It depends on how hard they work to right their wrong.

Thousands of people are fucking dead because of their thick-headedness. They are directly responsible for putting these assholes in power. Simply saying "sorry" won't cut it at this point.

[LNS]

43. I think so.

Yes I con forgive them, but isn't it like pandora's box? We've already let the demons out... ;)

Maybe we can put them in back in November!!!

[jobycom]

44. Pointless issue. Just move forward. You've heard the expression

voting is like driving? You choose D to go forward, R to go backwards.

I'll never forgive Bush, not after Katrina. But to ask whether I forgive people who voted for him is just pointless. My only concern in that matter is to convince them to vote for Democrats from now on. Same as it was before Bush almost got elected.

Revenge is a game for losers.

[Protagoras]

45. I'm usually willing to forgive people once they've cleaned up the mess

they made.

So as soon as They have admitted they did wrong and then devoted their lives to restoring the thousands of lives lost, the constitutional liberties undermined, and the spirit of countries (ours and others) which they raped and pillaged.

Then I'll be glad to start looking at forgiveness.

Let them join the peace corps and devote a few years living in squalor in some 3rd world countries feeding those whom they have helped starve.

Till we approach that though...nope.

[Balbus]

48. Hell no, I hate everyone that has a different opinion than me and .

will always hate them. I guess I'm in the right thread.

[samsingh]

49. forgive? sounds good. Forget? Not sure i could.

[leeroysphitz]

50. Thanks to bushco I'm in a position where my forgiveness or

lack of it towards anyone is pretty meaningless.

[blues90]

52. Pretty difficult situation

Looking at ALL that has happened up to this point I don't know if I could ever forgive these people and never will I be able to forget .

It's impossible for anyone to know what actions will be taken by any administration or it's members so this can be looked at . One time was bad enough in 2000 but many still wanted bush in in 2004 . So at this point it would depend on so many things and before I could even get to an understanding point I would need to be living in a much better america than I am in now .

[otohara]

53. Dealing with same situation right now

my best friend moved to the south, married a repuke and voted for Bush. She's contacted me recently and I'm still waiting as to why she went from wanting to work for Greenpeace to Bush?

[ceile]

54. Nope.

I love my bro, but he's an idiot and I tell him that about every other time I see him. Last time I saw him we almost into it over global warming and how hybrid cars were a rip off. I think he's hopeless and he's part of the reason we're all in such bad shape (him included).

[RayOfHope]

56. It's tough, very tough.

My family and I are going through some very rough times, thanks to what bushco has heaved upon the country.

My father knows and sees this, yet is a gigantically huge repug. There seems to be some sort of disconnect between what he knows is happening with me and his own role in perpetuating it. Same with my grandmother, his mom.

Sometimes I just want to scream "look at what you are supporting is doing to my family!" but it would get me nowhere.

For me, the crux is how they will act when bush's house of cards collapses. Will they admit he is an effing criminal, or will they insist that the liberal media is tarnishing the bushco reputation?

[Greyhound]

57. Very unlikely because they supported the bullshit he ran on the first

time and then, even after seeing that it was bullshit, repeated their offense. IOW, they still support things like codified discrimination, the abandonment of the poor, the establishment of a theocracy, mass-murder, unrestrained exploitation of others for their own selfish goals, and I see absolutely no indication that they have changed their views. They're just pissed now that he has proved himself to be utterly incompetent, just as he has always been.

[stop the bleeding]

58. 2000 ok - 2004 no fucking way

they knew better

[crim son]

59. I can and will forgive them. But the damage done

to their credibility and intelligence, in my eyes, is forever.

[Pepper32]

60. NO... hell no

And I don't want to! :mad:

[Cobalt-60]

61. no

[B Calm]

62. They're all going to burn in hell anyway, I'll never forgive them!

[Touchdown]

63. Don't know. Nobody I know has apologized yet.

They hate him now, say he's not a "true conservative", a liar and all that, but not one peep about being sorry for voting for the Bunnypants sociopath, or his enablers in Congress, or passing on the "liberal media" myth, etc.

They have to be sorry and want forgiveness before I can give it to them. They have to own up that they were duped into the whole GOP propaganda machine, and that they're not as insightful and perceptive as they thought they were. Otherwise I would be viewed as a smug acting superior jerk no different than the fundies who tell me how to live, and they would be right.

[JitterbugPerfume]

64. once is forgivable

twice? Not so much

[SammyWinstonJack]

65. NO! nt

[City Lights]

66. Not a chance!

I know so many people who voted for him twice, but are either having doubts now, or have already seen the light, and I can't stomach listening to them complain. I warned them, but they knew better... :mad: :grr:

[DinahMoeHum]

67. Once, if they voted for him in 2000 and then voted for Kerry in 2004

But if they voted for Bush again in 2004, I have no sympathy for them.

:nopity:

[madokie]

68. Sure, embracing them for waking up

[ShortnFiery]

69. No, I can LIVE WITH them, but they are forever *MorAns* to me eom

[proud patriot]

70. Of course I can forgive them

:hi:

[Pastiche423]

71. Nope

[Red Right and BLUE]

72. I almost don't have the energy to think about this one.

It's not about forgivness, but I'll never see these people as anything but selfish morans motivated by greed and fear.