Anyone else have Christian construction businesses where they live?

[shadowknows69]

I've just noticed recently two around my area which proudly proclaim on their signs that they are Christian contractors. The one name alludes me but the one I saw tonight was "Acts II Construction" I think, with the clever tagline beneath it "building bridges to Jesus' or "For Jesus". I'm tempted to act like a satanist with tons of money and see if they'll take a roofing job.

[Kutjara]

1. I recently saw a limousine-hire company here in LA...

...called "Alpha Omega Limos" or something similar. Their tag line was the passage from the bible, "I am the Alpha and the Omega." Quite what that has to do with renting a booze-filled stretch limo with questionable stains on the velour I have no earthly idea.

[shadowknows69]

2. The finest ride to the rapture?

wild.

[Clark2008]

3. Why?

Surely you could make better use of your time rather than antagonizing people who are entitled to their beliefs via the First Amendment.

If you don't agree, simply don't use their services.

Use your time to campaign for your local Dem, instead.

[MrModerate]

10. While I don't support antagonizing people who . . .

Wear their religion on their sleeves (or post it on signs outside their businesses), I think I share the OP's disquiet at the growing commodification of Christianity.

For many of these people, changing the commercial landscape so that religious-themed businesses have some sort of competitive advantage (and retain the "right" to not hire anyone who isn't a co-religionist, or to subscribe to health plans that will pay for Viagra but not birth control medications) is the ultimate objective.

Nothing "wrong" with it, but it makes me nervous.

[FUGW]

40. They are just trying to come a cross as honest, it's pathetic.

I think it cheapens religion.

[The Straight Story]

60. I don't really see it as any different than gay businesses

promoting the fact that they owners are gay or that they cater to them.

Some business have target groups they want to serve more of, so they make note of something personal about themselves.

[MrModerate]

68. I suppose there's some similarity . . .

But in all the years I lived in San Francisco, I never ran across a business that advertised its owners' sexual preference. Certainly one could tell if a business catered to the needs of a gay clientele, and the "bulletin board" areas were often dead giveaways, but nothing on the order of a sign with famous gay slogans outside.

I suppose there may have been some targeted advertising in the Guardian or the Advocate, but none that ever caught my eye.

The Christian advertising is definitely more in-your-face that way.

[Perky]

89. Self delete (dupe)

[Perky]

90. and I am sure the early Nazi symps said the same thing

"They" make me nervous. You get nervous too easily. Take a valium and get over it. People have an absolute right to freedom of religion and speech. A sign making you nervous makes me even more nervous.

[Perky]

91. Would you hire Jesus to do your kitchen cabinets?

He was afterall a carpenter

[MrModerate]

96. Don't get the Nazi reference . . .

And as you might have noted, Nazi references usually close off reasonable avenues of debate around here and in society as a whole. Ask Rumsfeld (which is not to say Rumsfeld is actually capable of engaging in reasonable debate, but that's another issue).

People certainly have a right to freedom of religion and speech -- although hardly "absolute" (try shouting "I've got a bomb" in an airport security line some day). Similarly, neo-Aztecs wanting to perform human sacrifices are likely to get in trouble with their local communities.

My disquiet over the commercial use of religion is that I see an attempt to make "Christian business" some sort of a norm from which one strays at one's own risk. Do you doubt that the Dobsons and Robertsons of the world seek such an outcome?

Sure, people can advertise the virtues of their businesses in 9 million different ways, but I retain MY right to look askance at commercial appeals linked to religious ones as being inappropriate and a bit creepy.

Perhaps "fills me with disdain" would have been a better phrase than "makes me nervous."

[Perky]

97. I like that better. thanks.

I just marvel at how threads like this serve as bait to folks who get off on on blating people of faith. It is not so much that they so not have the right, it just is so antithetical to the democrat notions of personal freedom and tolerance of a wide variety of belief.


It is our own brand of fundamentaism and is so easily acceoted that it is scary.

[shadowknows69]

30. Ok chill

I wouldn't really call as a satanist, it was a joke. Just wondering if anyone had seen this?

[SharonAnn]

37. Yes, and other companies. I avoid them. Sometimes I tell them why.

[seabeyond]

4. dominion. i had a company printed on side of truck with dominion in

the name. i dont remember what it is for. but we have some of that in town

[Virginia Dare]

5. Oh, yes, I've seen them around...

my neighbor is a "christian plumber". I also go to a "christian dentist". The muzak is annoying, but he's a good dentist and he's reasonably priced in his work.

[liberal N proud]

6. Here in Cleveland there is list of contractors who claim to be

Christian contractors. They all have a cross or a fish on their advertising.

[Arkansas Granny]

7. It's been common practice around this part of the country for

quite some time. Some are pretty low key about it, just displaying the fish symbol on signs and vehicles, while others put more emphasis on it. I think some contractors use it as a way to convince their customers that they will treat them honestly. I work in the construction field and there are plenty of shady characters out there taking people's money and doing shoddy work. We've followed behind some of this type and have straightened out some real messes for homeowners who were taken in by them.

I don't have a problem with it as long as they "practice what they preach" and aren't using it as a way to lure people in and then rip them off.

[WinkyDink]

8. There's a roofing company near me. Sign quotes Scripture.

[Dr.Phool]

9. I saw a truck for Amen Air Conditioning

In the parking lot where I was working early voting. Tampa Bay Area.

My father retired a few years ago and moved to North Carolina. My parents are very religious, and went with a lot of church going business owners, deacons, etc.

He got screwed so many times by those people, he quit dealing with them.

[Tesha]

11. Why would anyone want an air conditioning company that's full of hot air?

(NT)

[crikkett]

51. good one

:spray:

[ThomWV]

12. The Carpenter Never Yells "Fuck" When He Hits His Finger

Amen brother!

[Hubert Flottz]

31. They bang and screw all day and they'll nail anything!

Not a bad rackett, but it ain't near the job that Jerry and Pat have!

Edit...I made the mistake of recording a record one time at a bible thumper's studio. Nobody could play the danged things, because the holes in the middle of them kept healing up!

[jmowreader]

98. Carpenters don't hit their fingers anymore

We're in the Golden Age of Carpentry, where every good carpenter has a set of nailers--a framer, a coil roofing nailer, and a finishing nailer.

Hit your fingers with one of these bad boys, and even the Pope would say Fuck!

[Ian_rd]

13. Hell yea, How about "God's Care Lawn Service"?

[TlalocW]

14. In Tulsa

There's a whole host of companies whose billboards and phone book ads have the Jesus fish on them.

TlalocW

[Coyote_Bandit]

16. Somebody I know

who used to work at one of the large Tulsa mega-churches actually told me once that the reason the church did not print a business directory for folks in the congregation was because they were afraid the church would be sued because of the incompetent work of some of the contractors. So they did not want to do anything that meight possibly be construed as an endorsement. Probably a smart thing. Turns out one of the folks in that very congregation has since been convicted of investment fraud. And several others have poor reputations.

[TlalocW]

29. That's nothin'

A co-worker, who is a mega-Christian, once did some consulting for a big shot with Rhema University (a religious college in Tulsa-suburb Broken Arrow), and didn't get paid the $8000.00 owed him because after the work was done, the Rhema dude decided co-worker wasn't "right in the spirit."

Of course, that's par for the course for Rhema people. Going back on financial obligations and bouncing checks don't mean anything because they're taught that God will provide.

I personally don't enlist the services of anyone who uses the Jesus fish. Religion doesn't factor in to how well you can clean my chimney or fix my toilet, and more often than not, it's an attempt to mask how unskilled they are as well as how unscrupulously they practice business.

TlalocW

[Coyote_Bandit]

39. Similar story

Somebody got burned for about $10,000 by a family member of a long-time acquaintance. The person who got burned was going to sue but did some investigative work first. What they found was that the guy who owed the money had a pattern of not paying his obligations. There were no fewer than 7 suits seeking damages in excess of $10,000 each filed against him within a 12 month period - excluding his home foreclose and suits filed against his wife. The scumbag and his family still live in that foreclosed house and I suspect they used the foreclosure as a vehicle to their financial advantage. Virtually all of the litigation occurred after the poor guy had contracted to provide the services and he believes that the scumbag never had any intent of compensating him. Why? Seems that while the scumbag was skipping out on his many tens of thousands of dollars in unpaid financial obligations he was simultaneously investing large sums into building luxury housing for investment purposes in another country. Guy who got burned was between jobs and doing consulting work. Although he got a retainer and a contract, he was left with over 100 hours of unpaid time invested in the project. Legal counsel advised not undertaking the litigation due to the simple fact that collecting any judgment was unlikely because the court did not have authority to seize assets outside the country. It appeared that scumbag had moved most of his assets out of the country and others who had successfully sued him had been unable to collect their judgments. Another scumbag family member was also involved in investing in the luxury housing venture. That family member has a business partner who pled guilty to fraud after being arrested in an undercover FBI investigation. Last I knew, Mr. Fraud was doing volunteer work at one of the large Tulsa fundie mega-churches and the pastor was touting the virtues of the scumbag who doesn't pay his bills from the pulpit. The church is one of the large fundie politically active word of faith prosperity preaching churches. There likely are connections between them and Rhema. In the past I personally have heard the pastor imply that financial exploitation is sometimes permissible.

I am convinced that if it advertises itself as Christian that it isn't. Christian is as Christian does. If it advertises itself as Christian I grab my wallet and run the other way. And if it comes with Christian recommendations I do the same even if it doesn't advertise itself as Christian.

[TlalocW]

42. I know what you mean on that last bit

The guy who owns the company I work for is a mega-Christian but very low-key about it. The co-worker who lost the $8000.00 is less so, and I've heard him on the phone talking to prospective clients and using the boss' Christianity to try and sell them, and I just winced. That's just a weird selling point to put out there. Fortunately, the boss does live up to what a Christian is supposed to be when it comes to fair business practices.

I had never experienced a city like Tulsa when I first moved here looking for a job. A placement agency got me my first job, and while I was talking with them in their office, the head guy said something like, "Well, I think we'll be able to find you a position. I pray that you get a good job and make wise career choices." He was an older gent so I took that as wishing me good luck, and I was about to say thanks when he and the guy handling my placement started praying for me. So, I sat there in stunned silence while they prayed, and they paused and looked at me and because I didn't say anything, they started back up again. When they stopped and looked at me again, I said, "Uh, Amen?" That was, if not the right thing to say, "A" right thing to say as they stopped.

When I got the job they were placing me in, the guy handling it met me in the building the job was in and handed me off to my manager and referred to me as, "Brother W." He left, and I went into the manager's office to talk with him, and after he briefed me on things, he asked if I had any questions. "Yeah... Is everyone here going to refer to me as Brother W?" "Oh, no, that's just them and their craziness. I don't like it either, but they've never tried to screw us over so we like doing business with them. You'll find in Tulsa that the first 2 questions you're asked when meeting someone is, 'What church do you go to,' and 'How many kids do you have.'"

So you can imagine how much fun I've had in the 8 years I've lived here what with being a liberal Christian who doesn't go to church and doesn't have or want kids (getting the big V 4 years ago). :)

TlalocW

[Coyote_Bandit]

57. I've been thinking about

buying billboard space in the Tulsa area. I've been intermittently job hunting here for a very long time. I'm thinking of running something which reads "MBA JD seeks heathen work environment" or some such. Of course it would need some kind of graphic - hopefully one that is both artistic and humorous. I've done enough research to know that it really isn't that costly. It would change the dynamic since it would put potential employers in the position of approaching me. And I'm guessing I might be surprised by the responses. At any rate, it is an entertaining thought. Nothing ventured nothing gained - not prohibitively expensive and potentially entertaining.

I've long thought that the religious kooks here are only appealing to the other religious kooks here and beyond that they are merely tolerated because of their ability to attract money and other religious kooks into the area for a few brief years of time. The religious schools and meetings draw a steady stream of people. Most of them don't stay for more than a few years. Most of them spend more here than they ever earn here. Those who do work while they are here largely take part-time and low-paying jobs. Assume that Rhema and ORU and all the Bible schools combined attract a total of 10,000 or so students annually and that each student stays here an average of 2 years and that each student represents net spending into the local economy of $10,000 annually (spending other than that related to tuition and direct educational expenses). The annual impact of that is $100 million.

I understand exactly what you're saying. I too am single with no kids and no desire for kids. I do not go to church. Not only does that limit social and professional circles here it also carries a certain stigma among the less enlightened. Tulsa is very different in that regard and most people who have not lived here do not understand it. I have lived in other midwestern and southern states that were heavily populated by conservative fundamentalists. In every instance they were considerably less rabid and less exclusionary than the fundies I have found in Tulsa. Religion here is very closely tied to social status and opportunity - and in many cases that is far more important to adherents here than the faith they claim.

[TlalocW]

72. I disagree with your second paragraph

I don't think the religious kooks stay in the area for just a few brief years of time. Rhema encourages its students to start creating their own flocks/congregations while the students are still in school. Couple the fact that if they do, they now have a religious reason to stay with the fact that Rhema is extremely expensive (most of the reading material for classes are written by the founder or the son of the founder of Rhema, consisting of really thin paper-back texts of less than 100 pages but costing $65), and because of that expense, they're not going to be able to afford to move anywhere.

Thus, poor college graduates (but with a congregation already) hold Bible studies in their living rooms, then move up to renting space in former business space like in Eastland Mall or in abandoned strip malls, and then eventually contracting someone to build a relatively cheap steel building for their church. More than likely, these churches partner with Rhema somehow (ie give money to the college), and a lot of the parishioners then send their kids to Rhema, and you have a pretty self-sustaining vicious cycle going on, and it would explain the number of churches in the area as well.

TlalocW

[Coyote_Bandit]

77. You may be right about the Rhema students

But I know that well over 50% of the ORU grads go on to earn additional graduate or professional degrees primarily from other institutions. Last I knew they had about 5,000 or so undergraduate students. Not sure how many graduate students.

I know that the Victory Bible Institute grads are expected to go elsewhere either on missions or to work in the ministry. There is enough pressure that they would probably be viewed as a failure if they chose to remain in the congregation. Same is true of their missions school and school of worship. They have contacts across the nation and in some 30 to 40 countries around the world and I think they use their schools to continue to develop new outreaches (which they partially fund) and to re-staff as some choose to return to the states. Also their k-12 private Christian school attracts students from out of the area. I'm told that they have had students commute from outlying areas such as Bartlesville and that they have arranged housing for students from foreign countries as well. That school is fully state accredited and is the largest private school in the state.

I once had the experience of working with a Rhema student who was married to another Rhema student. She would talk about how she planned to wear the same dress to church every Sunday when her husband finally had his own little church so that folks would think they were poor and be inclined to donate more money. She was quite a piece of work. If I could remember her nit-wit husbands name I'd look to see if they are still in town and if he has his own church. As far as I'm concerned the Rhema bunch may be the most over the top group in town.

[TlalocW]

78. Man, you keep reminding me of all the stories I've heard

Okay, last one (hopefully).

I worked with a guy whose cousin and cousin-in-law had their own church in some town about 75 miles east of Tulsa. A very big church - looked like a giant boob from the highway according to him. Anyway, very weird church. His cousins would sit on throne-like chairs to preach to the congregation. Whenever someone new visited, they would be given some sort of job (like making sure the cousins water glasses were always full), etc. to make them feel important, etc. Well, they of course brought in a lot of money for charity, supposedly, and one Sunday, it was announced that the wife would be gone the next weekend to go visit whatever organization they were giving money so as to report back on all the good they were doing, etc.

It turns out that the weekend she was supposed to do that, a resident of the town but not a member of the church ran into her in a casino in Tunica, and he quickly let as many people in the town know, and membership did drop off quite a bit to where they're only a shell of their former selves.

I'm sure though that given time, they'll make a comeback.

TlalocW

[Coyote_Bandit]

80. That's good

There is one of those geo dome buildings that a church uses on 412 between Tulsa and Siloam Springs. Every time I drive by there now I will probably wonder if it is the same bunch of folks.

[TlalocW]

83. I think that might actually be it

Small world.

TlalocW

[Coyote_Bandit]

86. Wow

I've always wondered about that place. I thought it seemed odd. Now I know.

[Irreverend IX]

87. So why stay? nt

[Coyote_Bandit]

88. Actually

I haven't limited my job search to the Tulsa area at all. The majority of the resumes I have sent and virtually all of the interviews I have done have been outside the state of Oklahoma. I do have aging parents that I help care for which imposes some restrictions. I have allergies to chemical and environmental pollutants which make me absolutely miserable in most big cities (including Tulsa on days when ozone levels are high - something which has been common this summer). Depending on what field I want to work in my professional licenses (or lack thereof) are also relevant. If I could figure out how to make money in a small little rural community I'd be there in a heartbeat. Unfortunately, in this part of the country most of those little towns really are small and many tend to have above average poverty rates and few prospects for economic development.

[hatrack]

92. My brother and I were talking about buying a billboard near Branson

Which isn't THAT far away, either geographically or in spirit.

Anyway, the concept was for a billboard which would advertise a fictitious gay sex club, preferably located on the Branson Strip. We were thinking about slogans for the billboard like "LIVE GAY SEX!!!!", "ABSOLUTELY ANYTHING GOES!!!" and "MEN WITH BOYS AND TOYS!!!", an image of a six-packed dude in a leather suit and a phone number you could call for more information (we talked about having a message machine hooked up to the respective telephone number).

Even the faux controversy this fictitious club would kick up would be enough to turn Greene County into a shrieking morass of howling rage and generate God knows how many headlines and angry LTTEs.

Hey, you've got to do something to counterract the Shoji Tabuchi and Baldknobbers billboards on those long drives!!

[karlrschneider]

45. The Rhema outfit has a 25 milliion CRJ plane. I know one of their

pilots. (The same type as the one that wrecked in LEX the other day)
:grr:

[TlalocW]

53. Yeah, Rhema is rolling in it

And according to a friend that grew up here, they use that money to piss everyone off 11 months out of the year and then try to make up for it in December with their admittedly very impressive campus Christmas light decorations.

TlalocW

[Coyote_Bandit]

59. I used to know a guy

who flew for the Roberts ministry. That would have been about 20 years ago or so - probably about the time Oral was doing his "God is going to call me home" if I don't get so many million dollars within the next few weeks shtick. At that time Oral was said to own seven different and of course extravagant homes. I haven't a clue what kind of plane they owned....

[karlrschneider]

62. Back in the 60s Anal...er, Oral had a Viscount. 4 engine turboprop

I could have gotten a job flying it if I had wanted. His son Ronnie was a friend of mine (we went to high school together and we lived just a couple blocks from them) - after he committed suicide I moved
from strong distaste for that bunch to outright hatred.) Later on they got a BAC-111 jet but now
I don't know, I quit keeping track of them.

edit: Was the guy you knew Cecil Gibson?
K

[Coyote_Bandit]

73. His name

was Mitch. I never could pronounce (or spell) his last name. Began with a "D." He had a bit of a brogue accent so I doubt he was a local. I also suspect he didn't stay here long. He was older than your typical college student but he was still young and he seemed to have some money. He may also have been a part-time student now that I think about it.

Ronnie's death was tragic. By all accounts he was the brilliant gifted one of the family. And the one who truly was sensitive to other people. The conduct that he saw within his own family must have bothered him terribly. I can certainly understand your hatred. I share it - though for different reasons.

[Tesha]

34. Thomas Kinkaid -- Painter of Blight -- perfect example. (NT)

[TlalocW]

52. Something else about Tulsa that I've noticed is pretty common

Are churches expecting you to give them a discount because they're a church - and being very in your face about it.

As I've mentioned several times before, I entertain on the side with magic and balloon twisting so I'm often in one of the two very good magic stores we have in Tulsa, and these people just expect these guys, running a freakin' business, to loan - not rent - hundreds if not thousands of dollars worth of lighting equipment, costumes, etc. to them because they're a church. I think one of the owners, refuses to even do business with a church called, G.U.T.S., which usually wants free stuff to put in their annual Hell House walk through during Halloween (each room is a different place in Hell for various sinners - normally homosexuals and abortionists).

My method of dealing when a church calls me about something is to tell them, "My fee for performing at churches is X dollars per hour." That makes them feel special and makes them think, "What a good boy - he gives a discount to churches." Actually, my fee for EVERYONE is X dollars per hour so logically, for churches it must also be that. :) For certain churches (the ones who annoy me), it's sometimes Y dolalrs per hour (where Y is greater than X). I mentioned this on a performer's web forum and got a lot of hate mail from the gospel balloon twisters/magicians. :)

Aside:
Tulsa having 2 good magic stores is weird in itself because I've run into the attitude several times that sleight of hand magic is a subset of the evil "real" magic that fundies believe exists. While in the stores, I've seen Christian teens come in and ask for recommendations on a trick to buy to perform for a church's talent show or something then go crazy when the owner brings out a self-working card trick because according to them, cards are evil because the Joker represents Jesus. Upon hearing that, the owner got this great look on his face and then gave them a history of cards in a tone of voice that let everyone know he thought they were idiots and then sold them a gospel magic trick. :)

TlalocW

[Coyote_Bandit]

71. Many years ago

I practiced law very briefly in Tulsa. My experience mirrors yours. And whatever the agreed upon price they seemed to be the slowest to pay. We completely wrote off the small amount due from one start-up ministry that has since grown into an international television ministry.

GUTS Church. There is a fair amount of scuttlebutt going around about them. I have no idea what the real story is. Various tellings of it involve Bobby Nelson (Nissan Mazda dealer), his sponsorship of their television broadcast, his apparently brief tenure as an associate pastor there and the resignation of the entire pastoral staff of GUTS (except the founder and senior pastor of course). Not sure what sequence this all occurred. I know GUTS went off tv for quite some time and have only recently reappeared in that medium. I also hear Bobby Nelson is at Victory Christian Center now apparently playing the role of significant financier in their extravagant building project. I have no idea how bitter the split might or might not have been or just what transpired between Bobby Nelson and GUTS. I do know that I want to retch every time I hear that "we'll make a believer out of you" Nissan Mazda advertising jingle.

For what it's worth, I think there is also a Rhema connection to GUTS church.

I will never forget being at Albertson's one Sunday several years ago when I was approached by some overzealous church goers who were determined to save my soul. Even here that is a bit out of the ordinary. It wasn't until after I left that I realized what had prompted the behavior. I was wearing a tie dye t-shirt and a piece of jewelry that I had purchased at a reservation in Arizona. The jewelry was contemporary and incorporated some small crystals. Apparently that was enough for the churchgoers to conclude that I was some hell bound new age hippy. I'm guessing that the reaction to anything magic is similar.

[TlalocW]

76. I always joke

That I want to go to the GUTS Hell House, walk into the room where the homosexuals are burning in Hell and say in my best flaming lisp, "Oh, my God! Look at those curtainth! Thith is hell for homothhhs!" I would probably be gang-preached.

I go to a lot of Mexican festivals in town. Tulsa is getting a lot of immigrants (legal and not), and I have a degree in Spanish so I always like to go sample the culture. At one, a white woman came up to me, commented on the very loud music, and asked me if there was a park or anywhere nearby that might be a little quieter. I gave her directions to a nearby park, and she thanked me then asked, "If you died today, do you know where your soul would go?" I then read her the riot act that I was very happy with my personal beliefs and her coming up to me and wasting my time by lying about needing help (we had to walk quite a ways away from the music so I could hear her) was unChristian to begin with, and I told her instead of wasting everyone's time, why don't she and her fellow street preachers (she had friends there) go out and do good work for the community as that would be more effective than sidelining someone like she did. She wasn't exactly near tears, but she could have been if I went on instead of stomping off.

Every now and then you can get them before they get you. As I mentioned, I'm a magician, and I needed little manila envelopes for a trick. Mardel's Christian Supplies was the closest stationery place to my house so I went there (they're used in churches to put offerings into). I asked the nice little old lady where they were, and she took me to them. She asked waht they were for, and forgetting where I was I said, "A magic trick." She visibly stiffened so I thought, "Oh, what the hell..." and I continued. "It's a cool trick - I take out of the envelope five playing cards, a poker chip, and a five dollar bill and bet someone the five that I can predict what card they're going to pick and then have them move the poker chip to any of the cards they choose, and I'm always right." She quickly excused herself. She probably thought I was a youth minister or something instead I came in looking for supplies to do an activity that required not just magic but predicting the future and involved gambling and the tools of gambling.

If only I could have worked in sex and alcohol.

TlalocW

[Coyote_Bandit]

79. Beware the GUTS Hell House

They have volunteer workers hidden in all those rooms to remove people who either freak out (understandable for some people in some of those rooms) or cause problems. They also have volunteers outside who are assigned to stop and proselytize every single person. As for the volunteers. Well, consider that a fair percentage of that aggressively macho male congregation have excess testosterone and the behavioral indicators to match. Back when I was still working in the legal profession, I encountered a druggie who was arrested for dealing and copped a deal (truth be known the cops screwed up the arrest report) to serve a very, very long deferred sentence. I'm not quite sure how he arranged it but he spent most of a year doing volunteer work in the hell house. I'm told he also spent some time scrubbing toilets, picking up highway litter, and other assorted jobs.

Mardel, eh? I live not too far from there. Did you know they are owned by the same bunch that owns Hobby Lobby? I believe this group is connected into the Victory group as well. Kudos to you for being straightforward about your magic trick. It is a nice feeling to watch them stiffen instead of feeling like you have to be defensive.

[faithnotgreed]

81. ok i just have to say that your stories are making me laugh

i have never been anywhere near tulsa and really had no idea of the level of corruption going on (though obviously there have been many stories for many years) but i have been enjoying reading your various posts about living there

i intentionally stay away from any information about how greedy some people/those who call themselves "Christian" are but it has been enlightening to read everyones experiences

best wishes to you friend
you have a lot more strength than i

[TlalocW]

84. Well, here a couple more

This doesn't take place in Tulsa but has a connection to it. I once visited a friend of mine who was attending Baptist Bible College in Springfield, Missouri (Falwell is a graduate). My friend is pretty cool though - very spiritual and not in your face about anything, and he wasn't happy with the college's rules of no listening to certain types of music/radio (he ignored that and built himself a small recording studio in his campus apartment - he's naturally musically gifted), going out to movies (favorite pasttime), and not having facial hair (he went to the only doctor in our small farming community hometown in Kansas, who's Jewish, and asked him to write something that said he had a skin condition irritated by too much shaving. The doctor said, "So you want me to lie to Baptists for you? Okay!" and wrote him the note).

Anyway, I attended classes with him for half a day (and he skipped the rest of the day), and one of his classes was Spanish, which is one of my degrees. So the class is split up into groups to do an in-class assignment, and I help out the group that he's put in, and we finish before everyone else. A guy in the group chats me up and asks, "So where did you go to college?" Pittsburg State in Kansas and some grad work at Oklahoma State I tell him. "Ah, Stillwater. Good ol' Eskimo Joe's (a famous bar/restaraunt there)." Oh, you know it? "Yeah, I'm from Tulsa, and my friends and I would go there if there was a band we wanted to see." Oh, I'm in Tulsa now working, I tell him. "Oh, really? What church do you go to." (And once again, forgetting where I was) I reply, Oh, I don't go to church. Majorly uncomfortable silence. "Well, if you're interested," he says, "There's a good church at 129ths and..." I interrupt - That was YOUR church, wasn't it? "Well, yeah." (I realize how I can get him to not pester me) Actually, every now and then I do go to church - St. Francis de Guadalupe to practice my Spanish or when one of my Hispanic CATHOLIC friends asks me to go with them.

He didn't say a word to me after that. My friend had trouble not giggling.

What's weird is that same friend and another friend from our hometown, who is an atheist, visited me in Tulsa at the same time so I took them through the six-room, life-sized tour of Oral Roberts' life in the prayer tower on ORU's campus (I like to torture my friends). The religious friend wore kind of a grubby t-shirt and had two earrings in his left ear and advanced five-o'clock shadow. The atheist and I were wearing nice clothes, and our facial hair was neatly trimmed. We went through the tour with two older ladies, who, once we finished the tour, started chatting up our religious friend about their mutual faith. I guess my atheist friend and I gave off some kind of vibe.

On the way back to my car, my religious friend had me steal a 100lb rock from the bank of the stream that runs through ORU so he could give it as a gift to his sister for her rock garden.

TlalocW

[faithnotgreed]

94. hey i just caught that you had responded here

you are a natural storyteller
very easygoing but with a great attitude and quite the knack for cool subversive behavior

thanks for sharing
i know not everyone in tulsa come from the same religious place but it is interesting to hear how it skews

[Coyote_Bandit]

85. There are a lot of nice normal decent hardworking people

who live here. There is a fairly large and open gay population. There is even a gay ORU alumni association (though it isn't officially affiliated with the university and they don't want anyone to know it exists).

There is also some crazy "Christian" religious cult here (several loosely affiliated but otherwise unorganized groups) with tentacles that spread across the world. These are "name it claim it" prosperity preaching tongue talking Bible thumping, old time evangelistic healing folks. Some of the more outrageous things I've heard "Christians" here say include: (1) The words they speak are a reflection of their faith and that they can speak things into being in the same way that God created the world; (2) If you are poor it is because God hasn't favored and prospered you which is an indication that there is something wrong in your life; (3) If your mother (or anybody else) died it was because she didn't have faith enough to be healed; and (4) God is like a pop machine you put your money in and press the button to choose what you want. These people take their wallets and anoint them with oil. I'm told that one of the local fundie churches is currently holding services once a week to offer Christian dream interpretation - whatever that is. Sometimes these folks are just nuts.

But it is possible to largely avoid the religious kooks. I think it does take a bit more effort here because so many of the social, business and power structures have become entangled with the religious kooks. And those kooks are definitely power, prosperity and position seekers.

[faithnotgreed]

95. thanks coyote - as i said i basically know nothing about tulsa

so its very interesting to hear these stories

im glad to know its got some good balance to it
very rarely are things all or nothing

take good care

[Coyote_Bandit]

15. Run away. Now!!!!!

In the years I have lived in my home I have had numerous contractors and other folks that work on houses do various things.

Without a doubt the guy who did the best work was a nice young family guy whose family has worked in the building industry for decades. He came recommended by a couple of gay men I know. He was meticulous and a bit slow but he did absolutely perfect work. He was also by far the most expensive. If I needed major construction work, he'd be the guy I'd call.

The guy who re-roofed my house was recommended by my neighbors. Turned out he had roofed it for the previous homeowners as well and still had the measurements on file. He did a good job and adhered strictly to his timeline. His rates were very reasonable. I actually made money on my insurance claim. Oh, yeah, and his apparently is the only non-hispanic roofing crew in the city. I'd hire him again in a heartbeat.

The guy who built my deck worked cheap. It was a job he did in addition to his full-time position outside the housing industry. He did pretty good work. Not perfect but not sloppy and certainly more than adequate. I'd call him again. I especially think he would be reliable for some smaller handymen kind of jobs.

The painter that helped me remove a house full of wallpaper and do some faux finishes was a college interior design student. Great rates. Nice work. Eager to please. But only worked part-time due to other obligations. It took a while. I learned enough from watching her to do my own faux paint job next time. She has a great eye and will do well in her newly chosen profession.

Then there was the stucco guy who repaired the bricks on the chimney that were starting to crumble. He came recommended by the nice young family guy who did the perfect work. He was always on time, he did an excellent job matching color, he did a some additional work without charge patching damaged brick, his rates were very reasonable, and he offered and explained several alternatives to resolve the chimney issue. More often than not he had been drinking before he came to work. (I had been warned). I'd like to re-tile a couple of floors and he will be the first guy I call.

The "Christian" contractor came recommended by several folks. He was a disaster from day one. The quality of his work was poor at best. He seemed completely incapable of adhering to a schedule. He was bad about dodging phone calls and not responding to messages. I can't say the guy ripped me off or didn't do work agreed to. I can say that I had to threaten him to get him to complete a job that he started and left unfinished for an unreasonably long period of time. That job involved laying some patio tile and he seemed virtually incapable of leveling the tile. He was working here at the same time the college kid painter was and "borrowed" the painter's ladder without asking and broke it. I had to confront him to get him to replace it. Poor work, poor work habits, bad attitude, and irresponsible. I didn't hire the guy because he was "Christian" - I hired him because he came recommended by folks I knew (and I will never trust their judgment again).

So, I can say that I have had better experiences with a college kid, a drunk, a part-time hobby contractor, and other building professionals than I had with the "Christian" guy. Run. Now.

edit for spelling...

[spinbaby]

17. Well...

We have good friends who had their house built by an Amish builder. They were very happy with him. But although he was definitely a Christian business, he didn't go advertising it. It's the advertising that I find obnoxious.

[karlrschneider]

48. There are lots of Amish roofers, carpenters etc. around here...

they do excellent work and they don't push their religion or advertise it. I have no problem at all
with them but I've been royally screwed by a few who make a big production of being 'christians'.

[shadowknows69]

50. Royally screwed or "Divinely Screwed"

That could be the slogan for a fastener business: "The King of the Jews presents the home of the 'Royal' screws"

[prole_for_peace]

18. a lot of them.

also landscaping companies. i have seen one with "garden of gethsemane" puh-leeze.

and i have seen a carpenter's truck with something to do with joseph and a bunch of crosses on the side of it.

[greguganus]

19. I hired a Christian roofing company to reshingle my roof because

they gave me the lowest estimate and provided lots of references and even had pictures of past jobs. They did a great job and even repaired some gutters and painted my vent pipes for no extra charge. The company was called Upper Room Roofing.

[meg]

20. I know not to give them my business

why pay them when I know that they will just use their profits to try and take away my civil liberties, if not my very life.

[TheFriedPiper]

21. They certainly wouldn't get my business.

I don't want crazy people building my house.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

23. wow...you only seem to show up in bashing threads

and all you can seem to say is "Christians are nuts" or something to that effect...

If I hadn't figured you out before...this pretty much seals it.

sP

[shadowknows69]

32. deleted by author

Was responding to someone who wasn't talking to me. I think.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

38. hey Shadow...

if you were responding to me that is ok. I think you SHOULD act the satanist and call these people up. Would certainly be a test of their advertising...If they ARE actually Christians, they might try to save you. If you want to have some real fun, go through a conversion experience and then claim you cannot afford a new roof cause you now have to give all your money to the poor...

ok...maybe that is a bit much, but the satanist angle would be interesting...

sP

[shadowknows69]

41. Love it

:rofl: I used to be a megafundie too so I know the script backwards and forwards. I can even pull off a pretty good fake "speaking in tongues" too if I need to.

[The Deacon]

22. Why, Yes We Do

It's up in Americus, 'bout a forty minute drive. Call themselves 'Habitat For Humanity.' Branches all over the place. Right now they're kind of busy down in New Orleans, but if you give them a call, I'm sure they can fit you in - though they're more likely to hand you a roofing hammer than an estimate.

[shadowknows69]

33. I love habitat for humanity

but at least their motto isn't "We would've built Mary and Joseph a place to stay.";-)

[The Deacon]

36. On Reflection:

There is a definite difference between a "Christian businessman" and a "Christian business." One believes so fully in his faith that he lives it, treating others fairly, doing work as promised & taking pride in his life. The other is an advertising scam.
I guess that was my point about HfH - that some work according to Christian Principles. Then it occured to me: those who do rarely make a point about those principles because it would never occur to them to do otherwise.

[shadowknows69]

43. And because the bible says it's wrong to wear your religion

as a neon sign of that ever popular sin of pride.

[tsuki]

24. I worked with a contractor for 15 years. Always a deeply

Christian man, he didn't wear it on his sleeve. Would go out of his way to give anyone the benefit of the doubt and make thing right.

Well, he got mixed up in the Big Scary in our county, and became a Rabidist. It was all down hill from there. He jacked his prices, cut his quality, amassed a pile of money, left owing a bunch of money.

He's in AZ where he is going to open a Big Scary. Apparently, it is okay to cheat your friends and neighbors when you do it in the name of spreading the doctrine of the Big Scary.

[shadowknows69]

35. "The Big Scary"

great term/line.

[Odin2005]

25. Scaming the stupid, thats all these "Christian" business are for.

The Fundies think anything with "Christian" in it's name is good so they are easy to fool.

[yorkiemommie1]

26. the plumber on our street is a Christian

he doesn't advertise himself as such. He's a good man and the reason we don't use him for jobs much ( unless we have a idea of what the job should cost ) is that he REFUSES to charge us neighbors for his work! You have to literally shove the payment at him.

[Tyler Durden]

27. SonRise Construction.

No other note necessary

[newportdadde]

28. Sort of like a used car salesmen add say "Really I'm very honest."

I've found that the more someone tries has prove to you they are a good person the less likely they really are.

[Skidmore]

44. We have the "broken windows never heal" people in our

area.

[shadowknows69]

47. Gee that's a cheery marketing ploy

makes me want to have them do work for me :eyes:

[crikkett]

46. Don't be a satanist be a wiccan

they're deathly afraid of wiccans.

[shadowknows69]

49. heh

I once considered myself a Wiccan. Still do somewhat, more a lapsed neopagan lol. They pretty much see us as one and the same as Satanists but you get to wear scarier costumes as a Satanist.

[crikkett]

54. it's gotta be the pentagram

more powerful than you'd think.

But help me, since you'd know. I was told by a preacher "Wiccans think Satan is good!" but that's the Gnostics, isn't it? Wiccans don't 'do' demons and Satan, do they? It's more of a mother earth/fertility/wisdom thing, isn't it?

[shadowknows69]

55. Technically we don't even believe in the concept of a devil

I might be back on the fence about that one soon because there has to be some reason for the evil some of these lunatics seem to have in their very veins. The story of lucifer's fall and the mythology of the heavenly hosts and the war between God and the rebelious has always fascinated me. We must remember that history is written by the victor. Perhaps even in Christian mythology. What if Satan turns out to be the good guy? "God's" followers seem to be capable of as much "evil" as anyone else I've met.

[blogslut]

67. From what I "know" about Gnosticism

There's really no mention of Satan per se. According to the Gnostics, the God that Christianity worships is an evil, vain, selfish god and the true God is hidden from man. At least, that's what I gleaned from research into Gnostiscm.

What I "know" - there's a joke in there :)

[truebrit71]

56. I make sure to take my business elsewhere....

..

[noonwitch]

58. Yeah, "Father and Son, we get it done"

They have a good reputation as a construction company in the Detroit area. They don't really make a big deal out of the christian aspect, but they do have a little fish symbol in their phone book ad.

I went to an auto mechanic once who was unabashedly christian. He did a good job on my car, didn't charge me too much and asked me out in probably the nicest way a man ever has asked me out. I really don't have a problem with business owners being upfront about their religion.

[MrSlayer]

61. No, not that I noticed.

I've not seen any nor would I care as long as they are union shops.

[F.Gordon]

63. Religion has no place in business......

Unless your business is religion. Ya' know.. those book store places where you can buy Jesus Beanie Babies.... stuff like that.

I see it all.... quite a few "In God We Trust" painted on work trucks. Not sure what that's all about. Also see quite a few contractors with * stickers. Maybe these contractors are trying to get across the point that doing business with them will defeat the tarists'.
:shrug:

Reason # 3,451 that * has fucked up this country... he has allowed religion.... specific religion.. to seep into our everyday lives.

[ComerPerro]

64. they don't use nails. They hold buildings together with their faith

[and-justice-for-all]

106. ^^^Shut Up!!! HAHAHAHAHA.. thats so fucking funny!!!!^^^^

[ComerPerro]

65. I would NEVER hire an overtly Christian contractor to do anything

because, I have to assume that their exploitation of their religion is just pandering.

"So you're Christian. Big deal. So is over 2/3 of the country."


I'm guessing they can't get work on merit alone, so they have to remind people how Christian and God fearing they are.

[blogslut]

66. They're everywhere here

Lil fish symbols on cars and at 95% of the local businesses that are left since the WalMart came to town.

[RebelOne]

69. A mechanic that I occasionally use has the dumb

(in my opinion dumb because I am an atheist) Christian fish on the sign above his garage. I'm in Georgia north of Atlanta.

[Pattib]

70. Oh!!! A topic that I can get behind...here in the FL. panhandle it is

an epidemic of "Christian" everything...pharmacy, construction, bookstores (of course) Dentists, Doctors...you name it I am living in Christian-owned business hell. Not to mention all of the doctors and dentists I have been to in the area have their T.V. stations glued to Fox News. UGH.

You are lucky if you can find a non-Christian business here. My kids are in college now but the local High School still says a prayer daily over the loud-speaker. Christian, of course. Damn the Supreme Court they say...they could give two-shits about anyone else. When they make up 99% of the population, you realize you are living in scaryville. Thankfully my husband and I will be moving as soon as my daughter graduates from FSU (2yrs. left) and I am counting the days....

[ceile]

74. We had a contruction company shut down a new Planned Parenthood

It was "un-Christian" to finish the work he started. The bids came rolling in after that.

[Jed Dilligan]

75. Yes, and the motherFUCKERS almost blew me up.

Worst wiring job EVER. Fireworks coming out of the wall. Black scorches around all the light sockets. I will never do business with anyone who has a fish on their card again. I will henceforth assume they are hiding their incompetence or lazy greed behind a mask of piety.

I'm sure plenty of Christian businesspeople are fine, but those who use their faith in the sales pitch (cf. Thos. Kinkade) are scoundrels.

[PresidentWar]

82. What do they do, build houses in the shape of a cross?

I'm trying to figure out why they would make a religious symbol part of their job PR. Is there some virtue to making sure your home is constructed by Christians as opposed to, say, Sufis? Is there an inherent danger in having your plumbing done by a Zoroastrian?

[bliss_eternal]

93. No, but I have noticed more people advertising "Christianity"

in their business. :eyes: In my area, there is a book for those seeking Christian based businesses--it's like the yellow pages, but a lot smaller.

I've been surprised by the times I encounter people stating they are Christians, within the "about us" area on their websites. It puts me off. I wouldn't give them my business. I feel someone that truly practices as a "Christian" doesn't have to announce it to everyone, it will just be evident in their business practices and how they treat customers. Those that are advertising this seem to me kind of an odd result of the * administration. I guess they think they are appealing to those looking for "good, christians" to work with. :eyes: Whatever.

The one business I have experience with that openly told people they were Christians frequently bounced employee checks, cheated people, lied to employees and were on the verge of bankruptcy.

[Initech]

99. There's a Christian car dealer off I-710 (Ford, natch)

They have a huge sign that's easily visible from CA-91 and every thing they flash on their sign has a Jesus fish on it in some form, followed by "WE ENCOURAGE EDUCATION AND SPIRITUAL GROWTH".

[dflprincess]

100. I wouldn't buy a used car from them

I wonder how Jesus feels about being used as a marketing device.

[Initech]

102. I dont think I'd buy anything from them...

Especially considering they're in one of the seedier parts of Los Angeles, a few freeway exits from the Compton / Inglewood area.

[PresidentWar]

101. Religion in America is very weird.

All this in your face, religion on my sleeve stuff. In my travels around the world, I never saw other peoples acting like this (ironically the only ones that would have been similar are the militant Muslims, and I did not go to any Muslim countries).

All surface, nothing underneath.

[NuttyFluffers]

103. i lived in Saudi Arabia in the 80s, and it was relatively discreet there.

everyone was assumed to be muslim, and if you were a foreigner you were assumed to be an infidel. granted the law wasn't on your side, but the people wouldn't be overtly hostile because of your religion (because, since muslims come in the entire spectrum of humanity, just like most religions, you can never be exactly sure), though they might try to take some liberties by virtue of you being a foreigner. but other than that their hospitality and politeness was impeccable. also rarely did you feel potentially threatened by the populace around you -- you feared the state more.

but outside of not being able to worship openly, and being expelled if you made it too public, the plastering of "Muslim" on everything as an advertising tactic wasn't there. we would buy stuff at Dammam, Dharan, etc. and in the suuqs things were just about business only. there'd be watches, electronics, toys, carpets, etc. and no one really seemed to be making "i'm a better muslim than you!" a marketing tactic. pretty much the same experience we've heard from a good portion of the middle east.

now, proselytizing that one's manner of behavior was more muslim than another, well, that was common, especially from the Wahabbi Saudis towards the rest of the muslim world. they just didn't marry it to their commerce. and if it was, i must have missed it for it was nowhere near as brazen as here. though, things could have drastically changed in 20 years, so i'd like to hear of modern experiences.

[and-justice-for-all]

104. Those tags are helpful in my opinion....

Because then I know who I WILL NOT CALL...

[and-justice-for-all]

105. Then again.....

You could just 'say' your a christain business and take those bible beating fools who hire you for all the money they have. If you dont take their money, Falwell and Robertson will.

[blonndee]

107. Yup, here in blood-red OK

I've seen a contractor truck with a bumper sticker "I Vote By the Book!" alongside a picture of a bible, accompanied by a bunch of typical freeperesque stickers: The W 2004, "God Bless America" and "Power of Pride," blah blah blah.

I'd never hire them. The best I could do was park next to them with MY stickers:

"Jesus Didn't Teach Me to Hate Gay People."

"Your Silence Will Not Protect You -- Audre Lorde."

"Kerry/Edwards: A Stronger America 2004"

"Just Pretend it's All Okay" - my ribbon magnet

"The Revolution will not be Capitalized" (with a grrl power graphic)

and of course, my DU sticker and two anti-BSL stickers

[and-justice-for-all]

108. The only "stickers" I have on my car....

Is an CHROME EVOLVE FISH, the one with the fish holding a wrench in its hand and a SUPPORT LAW ENFORCEMENT RIBBON because my lover is a cop.

Other then that I just give'em old faithful..THE FINGER!

When I see the Icthys on bible thumpers cars I just laugh my ass off...Because its really a Pagan fertility symbol and just because its turned 90 degrees does NOT change its meaning. Take the "fish", turn it nose pointing down and there you have it. ITS A VAGINA and PHALOPIAN TUBES! It has absolutly nothing to do with xtianity.

[Donnachaidh]

109. a local Goodyear Tire is offering rebates if you bring your church papers

to their store.

I'm half-tempted to have a satanic pamphlet printed up. Just to bring it in with their disgusting ad.:sarcasm:

[Hubert Flottz]

110. I think they have that same thing going on here at the local...

house of ill repute. The Jimmy Swagger special I think they call it!

EDIT...I don't know about the free mounting and balancing?

[ikojo]

111. I think there is a Christian yellow pages

here in the St Louis area..just as there is a black yellow pages and the pride pages for the LGBT community.

[FooFootheSnoo]

112. I think it's odd

to advertise as a "Christian" business. I would not hire someone based on wether or not they were a Christian. I'd probably be less likely because I don't consider it Christian to broadcast the fact that they are Christian. I am a Christian and was taught growing up that Jesus is not a tool. As my Irish-Catholic grandmother would have said "The good Lord did not hang on the cross to help you make more money". This kind of in-your-face Christianity is very outside the spectrum of my religious upbringing. Whatever happened to humility? Prudence? Modesty? These are supposedly Christian virtues (or at least that's what I was raised to believe) along with charity, faith, hope and love.
Theologically, I believe advertising that a business is Christian is wrong. However, it's not against the law, so they are free to do it.

[randr]

113. Mennonite family's are moving here in large numbers

They generally buy lower end farms and ranches and do a very nice job of improving the properties.
They also have a number of companies from landscaping to roofing that have made a significant impact on local craftspersons. Generally they are able to underbid the established workers by using cheap family labor. By cheap labor I mean, they use their children to do a lot of the work. It is rather disturbing to see children as young as 6 or 7 raking leaves and picking up construction trash.
I wonder if this is part of their "home schooling".