Now that everyone KNOWS they steal elections, will we allow it again?

[Philosoraptor]

I mean, they got away with it twice already, and now here we go on another election but this time WE ALL KNOW going in the machines are rigged republican.

This time when they steal it by cheating, will we again say, "thanks for the rape, may I have another"?

[Nederland]

1. That's an interesting way

of defining the word "know"...

[Sammy Pepys]

2. If you know...

...you better tell someone.

We do ourselves no favors assuming that every Republican victory is a stolen one.

[Philosoraptor]

3. So the last two elections weren't stolen?

just asking, maybe i've been deluded

[LA lady]

6. Not where I live

I am an election commissioner and was totally satisfied that my precinct was honest. That way I can live with myself.

I encourage EVERYONE here to get trained and work the polls.

[marions ghost]

21. Good advice

work the polls. We should be doing that. It's a real eye-opener.

That's reassuring that your precinct was "honest." (You didn't say if you use DREs or not)

But I bet you know of some precincts that aren't known for honesty. They exist in every state.

[Sammy Pepys]

7. I don't think they were.

If you do, that's fine. But as painful as it is, it is possible for Republicans to win elections without stealing them. If we figure that's the only way they're going to get into office, we spend more time worrying about ways to "stop" them than actually winning contests ourselves.

Plus, at a certain point, the whole stolen election thing sounds more like an excuse for the reasons Dems can't win elections themselves rather than any sort of legitimate accusation.

[Philosoraptor]

9. I see your points

And that's part of the problem, we look like whiners when we mention Diebold machines.

And you are correct on one point, Dems look weak

[Sammy Pepys]

10. Obviously, any tampering...

..with any kind of voting process should be investigated and we shouldn't be complacent there, as you've rightly pointed out.

But our case is helped that much more when we have strong candidates and a strong platform. If we're weak, unfocused and organized than any illegitmate Republican victory is that much more believable.

[marions ghost]

12. Duh

but have you noticed, "strong candidates and a strong platform" isn't good enough to get Democrats elected in a Republican owned and operated system?

You talk like somebody who actually believes that it is a level playing field (and we can see what the players on the field are doing).

[Sammy Pepys]

14. This is a cop out....

"Republican owned and operated system"

Seriously, that is a defeatist attitude. This is going to sound all kooky and zen-like, but it's true: You have to go out with candidates and platform that are strong, that you believe in and that you can present in a way that highlights that platform and candidate in the best way possible.

Right now, we have a Democratic Party that is discombobulated and flailing. I would disagree that the Dems have put particularly strong candidates up for office in the recent past, with a few exceptions. 2006 and 2008, at the moment, look a lot better than 2004.

A "Republican owned and operated system" (ROOS) didn't cause any of this. ROOS do not cause unfocused or lacking platforms and candidates. The fact of the matter is, you can never expect anything political to be handed to you. I don't think we operate on an even playing field, but nothing in politics or government does. Congress doesn't, the White House/entire Executive Branch doesn't. So if you want to prepare yourself for success in those arenas, you have to get used to working that way because you're probably never going to have a balanced playing field anyway even after you win.

[marions ghost]

23. Unlike you

I believe that the corruption at the heart of our pathetic Republican-controlled election system CAN be rooted out ...eventually. You are defeatist if you think we can't do that. But I'm talking about some radical changes, instead of that defeatist line..."it's always been thus..."

Our Democratic candidates in the elections so far in this century should have been good enough to win and as many of us believe, they DID win. Always room for improvement, but we have to fix the election system AND put up the best candidates we can. It's not one or the other.

[Totallybushed]

13. Your'e making way

too much sense about how to win an election.

Not that I don't think they were stolen, I do, of course. But that's in the past, and way too much time has been spent focusing on them rather than ensuring that they won't happen again. And setting out a strong, honest agenda for where the Democrats want to take the nation.

You can't beat something with nothing, and you can't please everyone. The people that you do have to please are the majority of Americans that can be bothered to vote.

[marions ghost]

19. "in the past"....

:rofl:

This isn't an either/or thing like you're trying to present it. Democrats have to put up good candidates AND work on the dysfunctional, corrupt, antiquated and byzantine election system. It's possible to do both y'know.

[Totallybushed]

24. Stop cackling,

get up off the floor, and re-read what I wrote.

Here's the complete quote, not truncated to attack a straw man.


But that's in the past, and way too much time has been spent focusing on them rather than ensuring that they won't happen again.

Now you tell me where in there I presented the question as either/or. Where in there did I say we shouldn't work to prevent stolen elections? Where in there did I say it wasn't possible to do both?

It is possible of course, but so far, I haven't seen much evidence of either.

Laugh at that, Bub.
:-(

[marions ghost]

26. you said (Quote)

"that's in the past"...re. stolen elections. I find that laughable. The underlying message is "move on...nothing to see here" (that is one tired old talking point). :boring:

If you don't want us to focus on what happened in the biggest stolen elections in US history, how will we 'ensure that they won't happen again?'

Your point was that we can only ensure that they won't be able to steal it again by putting up better candidates (as if our previous candidates were worse than what the Repigs put up).

(message agin: DON'T whatever you do, don't LOOK at that past election briar patch....):D

[Totallybushed]

29. Really, you

should try to comprehend what you read a little better.

My point was that despite all the talk that has been done about stolen elections, nothing has actually been done to prevent them in the future. No evidence has been presented in a court of law, for example to indict and convict the thieves. If you have some examples of something concrete that has been done, I would love, and I mean LOVE to hear about them.

And I had nothing bad to say about the Democratic candidates. I said the Democrats, as a party, need to get a message and present it in one voice. For instance, what is the Democratic position on the Iraq war? OK, we're against it. Senator, how do you explain your vote...?

What about judicial appointments? We haven't, at least I haven't, heard much about this lately, but it will come up. Republicans are pleased as punch with Alito and Roberts. What is our position? Seeing as how this comes up primarily in the "social" issue like gay marriage and abortion and 'right-to-die', are we prepared to defend our positions against the arguments that will be made against them, or are we going to say, It's our constitutional right?', and leave it at that? Then they'll say, "OK, we'll fix that."

I'm just saying, we need to formulate the Dem position, buttress our arguments so that we're just preaching to the choir, and get the groups that will think their interests have not been protected to go along for the greater good.

[marions ghost]

30. you might address

the topic here, which is stolen elections, a little better.

If you're hung up on getting convictions for crimes that are seen a "business as usual"...well, you know how easy that is. Re. San Diego recent events:
CHECK THIS OUT: //www.bradblog.com/?p=3353

------------------
Also read Mark Crispin Miller's book, "Fooled Again" http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0465045790?v=glance

"This pattern--not one overwhelming fraud but thousands of little ones--is, in Miller's view, the new Republican electoral strategy. This incendiary new book presents massive documentation that the election was stolen and describes the mind-set, among both the major parties and the media, that could permit it to happen again."

-------------------
If you absorb the contents of Bradblog and 'Fooled Again,' you will have some idea of the uphill battle this is. Good Luck with understanding what's really going on. Your talking points seem so 2004.

[Totallybushed]

31. All right, you're correct.

Let's just assume this for the sake of the argument.

First, thousands of "little" frauds do not implicate one Bush. Only the folks that are involved. But,I'm not arguing against the fact of electoral fraud.

What I am arguing is that whether or not it occurred, whether or not it gets fixed by November or 2008 or ever, the Democrats cannot win unless they can present a vision for America to compete with the vision (and they do have one) that the Republicans present. A vision that appeals emotionally and rationally to the needs of the American people. A vision that the Party, as a distinct, unified, entity will support even if it is not perfect.

Do you disagree with this? If so, I would like to hear your reasons. Otherwise, I can tell you, that if we lose this November, I am never again going to beat the drum about stolen elections because a)the Democratic leadership is either unable or unwilling to do anything about them, and more importantly b)it is a paradigm that will have proven to be unworkable and ineffective for 3 election cycles after 2000. Another strategy is needed.

All this is not to say the thefts didn't occur, but the true results had to be close for that to happen, and that should not have been possible.

[marions ghost]

33. oh yeah

Election theft "fixed by November (or 2008)" LOL. :freak: No, it will take years. Democrats tried to fight it in Ohio--but didn't get far with a corrupt Republican-appointed Sec of State and judges making decisions about what cases can be presented and blocking access to vote counts (Just like in Florida)...that's why they didn't throw much money at it. Too much corruption to wade through. No effective mechanisms for addressing election grievances. Useless antiquated laws.

On one thing I agree--3 elections stolen should be enough to make Democrats really start fighting this harder. The state parties need to get real about the massive problem of election manipulation and the vulnerability of the e-voting systems which they hastily rubber-stamped. That for me, would constitute a 'new strategy.'

Also at the same time that you want to call it the Dems fault they lost, you have to account for the Fear factor, the brainwash factor. That gave the Repigs a big bubble in 04. (In 00, Gore clearly won). How much the Repigs have slid will play into the coming elections. If Americans really are seeing through the lies now, then the Dems just need to run honest campaigns that speak of damage control. The voters will be receptive to any messages that speak the truth and offer hope. Forget the grandiose vision. Voters want a nation (and an election system) that works for a change...the Hindenberg is going down.

How good the Democratic candidates are and all that is really a separate issue.

[Philosoraptor]

32. ALL machines must DIE!

Are we to give over our election process to MACHINES? Diebold or somebody needs to be indicted and investigated and the machines must be publicly proven to be easily manipulated and are easy to cheat with and that that's what happened the last few times.

Until we revolt against the machines, we'll never have another fair election.

I say we admit the last 3 elections were stolen, and swear not to let it happen again, but from the looks of it, it will, and there will be much woe and whining and I told you so's.

paper ballots for me, with my sig., date, and a receipt and notary seal thanks.

[SammyWinstonJack]

8. Make that the last three elections. '00 '02 '04.

[MH1]

16. No reason to believe the 2006 primary and the 2005 general were

"stolen" in my neck of the woods.

What about yours?

[bryant69]

4. I was going to question you but your use of all Capitals has

once again rendered your argument overpowering.

Should we evne participate in this farce of an election? (Why yes, I think we should).

Bryant
Check it out --> http://politicalcomment.blogspot.com

[Philosoraptor]

5. Oh I'll vote

as i always have.

[marions ghost]

11. What to do

other than work as election watchers and document what we observe. They capitalize on the fact that legal defenses are prohibitive. Even if they know elections are stolen all the time, the average person feels powerless against this kind of systemic theft and corruption. It's like fighting the Mafia. The cards are so stacked against us. But there are some who ARE valiantly fighting this attempt to hijack our most basic right in a democracy--and we need to join and support them.

It WILL happen again...there could be more fraud and tampering and disenfranchisement this time, as they are so desperate. They will make mistakes. And we will just keep building the evidence. And one day it will just sink this whole sick Republican owned and controlled 'selection' process.

[warrens]

15. They are hard to catch

They use a bunch of quasi-legal methods, a few votes here, a few there. Without exit polls, it's hard to catch them.

[Totallybushed]

25. It's hard to catch them

with exit polls. How many have been caught? By that I mean indicted, at the least.

You can count them on the fingers of no hands. Yet the exit polls showed Kerry winning easily. Go figure.

[ThomWV]

17. Remember Republicans Rioting Unchecked In The Streets Of Florida

Well, it won't be Republicans next time and it won't only be Miami or Palm Beach.

[Balbus]

18. I don't they were stolen. The only people convicted for election fraud

in the last election were members of the Democratic Party.

[marions ghost]

20. where u been?

:nopity:

[ramblin_dave]

22. Which Democrats were convicted of election fraud?

I don't recall any...

[Balbus]

27. Sheila Thomas, Jesse Lewis, Yvette Johnson and Kevin Ellis to name a few,

http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory?id=1557526&CMP=OTC-RSSFeeds0312

[leftofthedial]

28. I see no organized attempt to stop it

there are organizations fighting it, but like other organizations, seem more intent on perpetuating their organization than solving a problem

these machines are profoundly undemocratic, unreliable and have been shown to have been used for partisan purposes

shutting them down in a real democracy would be a no brainer

Murka hasn't been a real democracy though since the Civil War.

[Philosoraptor]

34. kik