Islamic extremists ARE Fascist fucks. Why would anyone here argue that?

[Proud2BAmurkin]

Why is anyone offended by referring to Islamofascists as Islamofascists?

The name fits, just like the name CHRISTOFASCISTS fits the religious right wing Bush base in this country.

Religious nuts are dangerous and seek to turn a government into oppressive force against people who don't agree with their insanity.

Why would anyone defend ISLAMIC FASCISTS?

[mike_c]

1. oh my....

:popcorn: Probably need a coupla beers, too.

[Junkdrawer]

3. Why bother? n/t

[IChing]

19. I just opened a bottle

for my headache.

[tocqueville]

2. interesting question

:popcorn:

[Flubadubya]

4. Maybe just semantics but "fascism" doesn't really fit...

"A philosophy or system of government that is marked by stringent social and economic control, a strong, centralized government usually headed by a dictator, and often a policy of belligerent nationalism." (From The American Heritage Dictionary)

Islamic religious extremists aren't a government and have no national boundaries. Moreover, there is no single leader who could be called a dictator.

Also, Mussolini defined fascism as a corporate controlled government. So, that definition comes closer to describing the governtment of modern-day United States, eh?

[Fredda Weinberg]

22. They want to return to the Ottoman empire

Where the umma was united under a single caliphate and Islamic law *was* enforced by hte government. Why do you think they're fighting for?

[Lerkfish]

5. actually, I think people are objecting to the framing rhetoric and

what it really means.
If the neocons and rove can reframe the middle east as a haven for "islamofascists", then why by golly it makes it easier to hate the whole lot of em and makes it easier to justify regime countries we have no business regime changing.

look beyond the rhetoric merely as a definition, grasshopper, and try to see what they're trying to ACCOMPLISH with the rhetoric.

[Gato Moteado]

6. was someone here defending islamic fascists?

if so, why?

religious fanactics suck no matter which religion they belong to.

sure the vast majority of muslims are fine. but to deny that there are extreme islamic freaks that commit heinous crimes in the name of their wacky religion (all religions are wacky) would be plain ignorant.

[gully]

7. Clarified in thread.

Never mind.

However for those who haven't read this here is OBL's "letter to america." He's a nut bag.

http://observer.guardian.co.uk/worldview/story/0,11581,845725,00.html

[KyndCulture]

8. not this shit again.

please don't eat this bait people.

[IChing]

17. Ouch my head

[malaise]

25. ROTFL

:rofl: :rofl:

[Robbien]

9. Because

first, not everyone who hates oppressors and use terrorism to fight it are of the Islamic faith.

second, not everyone fighting their oppressors by using terrorism want to dictate to their own people

so not all Islams are facists

and Islamofascists is not a word, or at least not in any dictionary used by the world of the non-GOP

[Proud2BAmurkin]

16. Not all Christians are Christofascists but the word fits for the Bush base

I don't think anyone thinks ALL Christains are fascist oppressors but the term works for the ones who make up the rePUKE base

[Robbien]

20. I disagree. Many of the christians in BushCo's base

are just die-hard christians who are being mislead by their "preachers". They don't want to rule the world, they just want to be good followers.

I agree that there is a segment of the BushCo base that is the freepertype Christofascist (if there was such a word as Christofascist). But not all of them are such.

Many are just deluded misguided souls.

[meldroc]

10. They're certainly no angels

I don't know if "Islamofascist" or even "fascist" really fits - as mentioned, fascism is an authoritarian type of government that also brings in corporate control, but "Islamic theocrats that want to return to the 14th century" fits pretty well, especially concerning the gross outrages on human rights and liberties they commit.

[EST]

11. I don't think taking offense is an apt turn of phrase.

Please take the time and opportunity to define for the rest of us your concept of fascism.
It would make the discussion flow more smoothly and would, perhaps, be more satisfying.

[derby378]

12. They're not fascists - they're just misogynistic theocrats

As though that wasn't bad enough...

Read the "14 Points of Fascism" by Lawrence Britt and come back with your critique.

[gully]

14. Islamocrats?

Perhaps that's a better word?

[jimshoes]

13. Islamic extremist

may well be extremist fucks, but fascist just doesn't describe them. I don't see how mischaracterizing something helps identify the problem. We must use the language to our benefit and not fall into the trap of trying to explain a right wing frame.

[IChing]

15. ......

[eallen]

18. Don't fall for freeper idiocy. Liberalism is the enemy of fundamentalism..

The Christian fundamentalism of the our religious right is philosophically the blood brother of the various strains of Islamic fundamentalism that are so worrisome in the Middle East. The rejoinder to all of them is that modern, civil government requires a strong separation between church and state. The neocons can launch military attacks, but they cannot push or encourage the reforms that are needed in the middle east -- educational reforms, legal reforms -- because the very reforms that would counter fundamentalist politics there are the same things that Bush opposes here.

[billbuckhead]

31. The endless fight for language---Fascism is different than theocracy

It seems for the most part that islam is a least neutral about corporate power while the Dick Cheney led US energy industry is the latest greatest version of fascism. Here's a wikipedia definition.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Although the broadest definitions of fascism may include every authoritarian state that has ever existed, most theorists see important distinctions to be made. Fascism in Italy arose in the 1920s as a mixture of syndicalist notions with an anti-materialist theory of the state; the latter had already been linked to an extreme nationalism. Fascism in many ways seems to have been clearly developed as a reaction against Communism and Marxism, both in a philosophic and political sense, although it opposed democratic capitalist economics along with socialism, Marxism, and liberal democracy. It viewed the state as an organic entity in a positive light rather than as an institution designed to protect collective and individual rights, or as one that should be held in check. It tended to reject the Marxist notion of social classes and universally dismissed the concept of class conflict, replacing it instead with the struggle between races, and the struggle of the youth versus their elders. This meant embracing nationalism and mysticism, and advancing ideals of strength and power as means of legitimacy, glorifying war as an end in itself and victory as the determinant of truth and worthiness. An affinity to these ideas can be found in Social Darwinism. These ideas are in direct opposition to the ideals of humanism and rationalism characteristic of the Age of Enlightenment, from which liberalism and, later, Marxism would emerge.
Fascism is also typified by totalitarian attempts to impose state control over all aspects of life: political, social, cultural, and economic. The fascist state regulates and controls (as opposed to nationalizing) the means of production. Fascism exalts the nation, state, or race as superior to the individuals, institutions, or groups composing it. Fascism uses explicit populist rhetoric; calls for a heroic mass effort to restore past greatness; and demands loyalty to a single leader, often to the point of a cult of personality.
Fascism attracted political support from diverse sectors of the population, including big business, farmers and landowners, nationalists, and reactionaries, disaffected World War I veterans, intellectuals such as Gabriele D'Annunzio, Curzio Malaparte, Carl Schmitt and Martin Heidegger to name a few, conservatives and small businessmen, and the poor to whom they promised work and bread. In countries such as Romania and Hungary (and to a lesser extent in other states), Fascism had a strong base of support among the working classes and extremely poor peasants. The broad appeal of support for Fascism makes it different from other totalitarian states.
The word has become a slur throughout the political spectrum since the failure of the Axis powers in World War II, and it has been extremely uncommon for any political groups to call themselves "fascist" since 1945. In contemporary political discourse, adherents of some political ideologies tend to associate fascism with their enemies, or define it as the opposite of their own views.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascism>

[F.Gordon]

21. Would you be offended if a Jewish Extremist

.... was called a Jewishfascist? Wooo... I think my head just exploded on that one.

You've obviously bought into the propaganda. I'll put you down as "doubtful" for the 2006 elections.
:hi:

[Fredda Weinberg]

26. I'm Jewish and yeah, we've got our problems too

Lots of people called Meir Kahane a fascist - and his party was banned in Israel.

[F.Gordon]

30. That wasn't quite where I was going

But.... I think you helped make my point in a round' bout' way.

[Fredda Weinberg]

35. Make your point? Is that like the exception proving the rule?

You objected to the term Islamic fascism because, you claimed, the term Jewish fascist wouldn't be used - I pointed out where it was.

[gully]

23. Fascism defined as per wiki

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascism#Definition

* "Fascism may be defined as a form of political behavior marked by obsessive preoccupation with community decline, humiliation, or victim-hood and by compensatory cults of unity, energy, and purity, in which a mass-based party of committed nationalist militants, working in uneasy but effective collaboration with traditional elites, abandons democratic liberties and pursues with redemptive violence and without ethical or legal restraints goals of internal cleansing and external expansion." <3>

This definition could be considered meeting the criteria for OBL and co.

[Ms. Clio]

36. you're missing one of the key points of the definition -- nationalism

Muslim terrorists are stateless actors.

Anyone who thinks there is any genuine comparison between OBL and the powerful industrial nation-state that was Nazi Germany simply has screws loose.

[Fredda Weinberg]

41. You don't understand ... they don't want to be

Hizb ut-Tahrir says that Muslims should abolish national boundaries within the Islamic world and return to a single Islamic state, known as "the Caliphate," that would stretch from Indonesia to Morocco and contain more than 1.5 billion people.

It's a simple and seductive idea that analysts believe may someday allow the group to rival existing Islamic movements, topple the rulers of Middle Eastern nations, and undermine those seeking to reconcile democracy and Islam and build bridges between East and West.

"A few years ago people laughed at them," says Zeyno Baran, a senior fellow at the Hudson Institute and the leading expert on Hizb ut-Tahrir. "But now that bin Laden, Zarqawi, and other Islamic groups are saying they want to recreate the Caliphate, people are taking them seriously."

http://www.csmonitor.com/2006/0510/p01s04-wome.html

[Ms. Clio]

43. yeah, a steaming load from the Hudson Institute

a wingnut icon.

[Spider Jerusalem]

24. Why would anyone argue it? Because it's not true.

'Fascist' does NOT mean 'right-wing extremist. Religious fanatics aren't fascists; anyone who tries to argue that they are is obviously either deeply ignorant of what fascism actually IS, or employing the word in a propagandistic manner.

Fascism is a reactionary, anti-liberal totalitarian political philosophy, usually with a strong component of ethnic nationalism, that glorifies the State as supreme.

Fundamentalist Muslims (or Christians) are no more 'fascists' than a Democrat is a Communist.

[StrictlyRockers]

27. Islamic CONSERVATISM does not = Islamic FASCISM.

Fascism is a totally different animal. It involves close ties between business and government.

The Islamists simply are not operating under this model. It is the wrong word.

It is a loaded, politica word that the Rethuglicans are using to frame the debate the way they want it. It's another lie. It's totally dishonest. Anyone who can't see through it is a freeptard.

SR

[Disturbed]

34. The RW is using this term because

it is associated with Hitler and the Nazis, therefore signifies evil. The term does not describe the Islamic Fundamentalists that at times utilize terroristic tactics. In actualty the Bush Regime is closer to fullfilling the attributes of Fascism in America.

[Fredda Weinberg]

40. Unfortunately, you're dead wrong

Hizb ut-Tahrir says that Muslims should abolish national boundaries within the Islamic world and return to a single Islamic state, known as "the Caliphate," that would stretch from Indonesia to Morocco and contain more than 1.5 billion people.

It's a simple and seductive idea that analysts believe may someday allow the group to rival existing Islamic movements, topple the rulers of Middle Eastern nations, and undermine those seeking to reconcile democracy and Islam and build bridges between East and West.

"A few years ago people laughed at them," says Zeyno Baran, a senior fellow at the Hudson Institute and the leading expert on Hizb ut-Tahrir. "But now that bin Laden, Zarqawi, and other Islamic groups are saying they want to recreate the Caliphate, people are taking them seriously."

http://www.csmonitor.com/2006/0510/p01s04-wome.html

[AntiFascist]

28. Primarilly because religion is not the source of the fascism....

profit, greed, and oil have much more to do with it. Any kind of Fundamentalism is also bad, and its particularly bad when Fundamentalists team up with fascists.

[aquart]

29. Buy a dictionary. Read it.

Eh. If this were thirty years ago, you'd be saying "Islamocommunists" with equal ignorance.

[last1standing]

32. Is a cat the same as a dog?

No one is defending terrorists (I hope), but many do want to point out that these people are not fascists. When the bush* admin uses these terms they are trying to reframe the discussion in a way that makes anyone who disagrees with their policies an appeaser, just like Neville Chamberlain before WWII.

According to Merriam-Webster online Fascism means "a political philosophy, movement, or regime (as that of the Fascisti) that exalts nation and often race above the individual and that stands for a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader, severe economic and social regimentation, and forcible suppression of opposition". While some of these qualities may fit just about every terrorist who supposedly follows Islam, the entirety of the definition rarely does. Therefore, the label just does not fit.

So we have two reasons to object to the term right there and I'm sure you'll hear many more.

[Superman Returns]

33. heres my logic.

Fascism and conservatism and fundamentalism are not equatable terms. Fascism is a political ideology that emphasizes the state. See, Mussolini and Hitler. Religion does indeed become intertwined with fascism, yet religion serves to give the leadership and the state as a whole a messianic role. Thats what gets the public behind wars. It also plays into sentiments of traditionalism. Basically religion in this case emphasizes the state and its leadership while glorifying the state's traditions and history.

Saddam Hussein was Arab Socialist but had elements of fascism.

Islamic terrorists come more from conservative movements and fundamentalism movements within Islam. Osama Bin Laden and other fundamentalists talk of a pan-Islamic state that that transcends borders of already existing ones. His movement is based out of religion not the state. If he had his wishes come true, I doubt it would like Hitler's Germany and more akin to Afghanistan pre-American invasion.

[Fredda Weinberg]

38. I don't think you understand Islam

It's not just a religion ... sharia law is meant to be enforced by governing authorities - who else can cut off the hand of a thief?

"A few years ago people laughed at them," says Zeyno Baran, a senior fellow at the Hudson Institute and the leading expert on Hizb ut-Tahrir. "But now that bin Laden, Zarqawi, and other Islamic groups are saying they want to recreate the Caliphate, people are taking them seriously."

http://www.csmonitor.com/2006/0510/p01s04-wome.html

[Ms. Clio]

42. a quote from the Hudson Institute -- yeah, that's really credible

:eyes:

[Superman Returns]

48. Prove me wrong

I'm still in college, and have a lot more to learn and read. But I don't see how my basic take fascism and the state is wrong along with its use of religion. Prove me wrong. Oslam Bin Laden is not fascist. Its a dumb use of the term and reeks of propaganda.

[stranger81]

37. I'd argue that because they're not facsists

That's a term with a very specific meaning -- one that denotes the entanglement of government and the corporatocracy, and one that does not describe Islamist extremists in any meaningful way. They may be a lot of things, but they're definitely not fascists.

[tocqueville]

39. OK OK, stop a minute, there is a known notion of CLERICAL FASCISM

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clerical_fascism

Clerical fascism is an ideological construct that combines the political and economic doctrines of fascism with theology or religious tradition. The term has been used to describe organisations and movements that combine religious elements with fascism, support by religious organisations for fascism, or fascist regimes in which clergy play a leading role. For Catholic clerical fascism, the term Catholic integralism is sometimes used, though Catholic integralism may have points of disagreement with fascism.

Examples of clerical fascism

Examples of dictatorships or political movements involving certain elements of clerical fascism include those of António Salazar in Portugal, Maurice Duplessis of Quebec<2>, Engelbert Dollfuss in Austria, Jozef Tiso in Slovakia, Getulio Vargas in Brazil, Ante Pavelić and the Ustashe in Croatia, the Iron Guard movement in Romania, the Rexists in Belgium and the government of Vichy France. The regime of General Franco in Spain had nacionalcatolicismo as part of its ideology. It has been described by some as clerical fascist, especially after the decline in influence of the more secular-fascist Falange beginning in the mid-1940s. With the exception of the Croatian Ustashe movement, scholars debate which other examples in this list should be dubbed, without reservation, clerical fascist.

Some scholars, such as Walter Laqueur, consider certain contemporary movements to be forms of clerical fascism, including Christian Identity and possibly Christian Reconstructionism in the United States; militant forms of politicized Islamic fundamentalism; and militant Hindu nationalism in India (Rashtriya Swayamsevak Sangh / Bharatiya Janata Party).

Other scholars, such as Juan Cole, however point to the fact, that presently the term is used pejoratively by those opposed to religious influence upon politics in general.

......

in other words (like George use to say) - is the concept of clerical fascism applicable to Islamists ? Is Cole right or wrong ?

my attempt to answer is to disregard the religious side and to see if the bases of a fascistic organisation are to be found in Islamist fundamentalism.

Because some epiphenomenons are less important : Franco didn't persecute the Jews (in fact he turned a blind eye) and wasn't for abortion and euthanasia like the Nazis (as a good Catholic). But his society was basically fascistic, there is no argument about that.

Fascism : A recent definition is that by former Colombia University Professor Robert O. Paxton:

"Fascism may be defined as a form of political behavior marked by obsessive preoccupation with community decline, humiliation, or victim-hood and by compensatory cults of unity, energy, and purity, in which a mass-based party of committed nationalist militants, working in uneasy but effective collaboration with traditional elites, abandons democratic liberties and pursues with redemptive violence and without ethical or legal restraints goals of internal cleansing and external expansion." <3>

Paxton further defines fascism's essence as:

"1. a sense of overwhelming crisis beyond reach of traditional solutions; 2. belief one’s group is the victim, justifying any action without legal or moral limits; 3. need for authority by a natural leader above the law, relying on the superiority of his instincts; 4. right of the chosen people to dominate others without legal or moral restraint; 5. fear of foreign `contamination." <4>


all the definitions above fit on the Islamists

society organisation and religious patterns differ, like Hitler, Mussolini and Franco differed.

so according to this attempt of analysis islamo-fascism isn't completely irrelevant. It's another story if the term is alienating for the Islamic masses and is missused on purpose.

[jimshoes]

46. This selection below

could actually be used to describe a government a little closer to home, eh.

"1. a sense of overwhelming crisis beyond reach of traditional solutions; 2. belief one’s group is the victim, justifying any action without legal or moral limits; 3. need for authority by a natural leader above the law, relying on the superiority of his instincts; 4. right of the chosen people to dominate others without legal or moral restraint

[boolean]

44. LOL!

So should we adopt every other GOP talking point to win?

[Nevernose]

45. Fascists live next door to me; why wouldn't they also live in Kabul?

I think it's a fairly accurate portmanteau. Islamofascists match every single criteria needed for fascism. The details differ sometimes, but the differences are minor, and not in any way that seriously interferes with the definition of "fascist." The fact that they haven't been super-succesful yet in no way mitigates what they'd LIKE to see happen, nor does the fact that they're not carrying swastikas, speaking German, quoting Mein Kampf, or generally doing everything possible to make themselves as obvious as possible. Replace "race" with "religion" and there's really not that much difference.

The word isn't bad in and of itself, but it was coined by, and still used by, the Christian Right ("Christofascists" as you put it). When I hear it, I usually think, "Giant Asshole Coming Up On Faux News -- About to Make up Shit About Islam and Tell Us That Islam Is Evil!" So the term "islamofascist" is at best loaded, since it's usually used by intolerant people in intolerant ways against people -- muslims -- are generally pretty good folk.

Personally, I think most Republicans are too closed-minded, too ignorant, or, above all, too AFRAID to be anything BUT a closet fascist, and probably Christian, too. I bet much of DU feels the same way. If we can identify the closet fascists right next door, then why is it so hard to believe that they'd be in foregin countries as well.

[PresidentWar]

47. Stop using bullshit terminology

Say they are beligerent. Say they are intolerant. Say they are backward. Say they are fanatical. But DON'T say they are fascist. Fascism is a marriage of established government allying with big business and is characterized by military beligerence, worship of force, anti-intellectual, pragmatist and not idealistic, and are often supremist or racist.

ISLAM NEVER EMBRACED FASCISM nor was it even mentioned in the Qur'an. Arm yourself with facts and don't buy into the GOP fascist bullshit.

[pinto]

49. Locking.

As used here both "Islamic fascists" and "Christo fascists" are extremely inflammatory.